Dean blasts Kerry on Vietnam

[boxster]

Howard Dean’s presidential campaign sharply criticized Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) yesterday for seemingly flip-flopping on the importance of serving in Vietnam in presidential politics.

More at http://www.thehill.com/news/101503/kerry.aspx

Forgive me for saying so, but doesn't Dean have better issues to discuss than Kerry's use of his Vietnam experience in the campaign?

Edit: and is he the last one to notice that Kerry has been saying "Vietnam" every tenth word? ;)

[wyldwolf]

1. Did Dean serve?

[Hawkeye-X]

7. Dean did not serve

Here is why:

In February 1970, with the Vietnam War raging, 21-year-old Howard Dean carried a set of X-rays and a letter from a Manhattan orthopedist named Hudson Wilson to Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn, where U.S. military doctors determined that he was not fit for military service because of a back condition called spondylolisthesis.

Dean was classified 1Y, according to military records, meaning he was exempt from service for the duration of the war and free to head to Colorado after his Yale graduation, where he skied at Aspen and poured concrete. Spondylolisthesis is a condition caused by an unfused vertebra. When diagnosed nearly four years earlier, he was cleared to participate in all sports except long-distance running.

"I didn't try to get out of the draft," Dean has said. "I had a physical."

Cached version of AZCentral article

[wyldwolf]

11. No knock on Dean, then, but this isn't a smart move to make against Kerry

[lebkuchen]

2. I'd prefer Dean blasting Kerry on his support of bombing Iraq

preemptively, especially now that we can't find any WMD.

[saigon68]

3. Jan Scruggs is right

“When you’re running, you use everything that may get you a few votes,” observed Scruggs.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

4. I thought this quote was more telling:

“Good luck to the aspiring president who would argue that national security credentials haven’t taken on greater importance in the post- Sept. 11th world. John Kerry’s Vietnam service, 19 years on the Foreign Relations Committee and overall national security experience are part of who he is and what kind of president he’ll be.”

The truth is Dean cannot hold a candle (or a flashlight) to Kerry's record in this regard, and he'd just as well not since the comparison is so unfavorable.

It's not just the economy I'm afraid.

[saigon68]

12. I agree

We'll see where all of this goes. That's why being here (DU) is so interesting.

[boxster]

14. I agree. It seems strange that he'd even bring it up.

Focusing on Kerry's perceived "flip-flops" on Vietnam seems to be a no-win situation for Dean. Any negative reaction Dean is seeking would seem to be outweighed by the fact that he's bringing MORE attention to Kerry's military, security, and foreign policy experience.

[Nancy Waterman]

10. It seems to me Kerry is not the only one

who considers some military experience helpful in the conditions of today. Things are not the same as they were 11 years ago when Clinton was running. Military experience is not a prerequisite, but it clearly was a very important experience for Kerry and shaped him in many ways. It also enables him to see things differently than someone without that experience. He was the only one who criticzed Bush's handling of Tora Bora based on the military tactics. And he was right. We lost Osama because because we depended on the locals for that very imporatant battle.

Dean is trying to neutralize Kerry's strong point here, and his military service is a strong point for him, though he could do with mentioning it a bit less.

[Wickerman]

5. I like Dean

but I'd rather candidates focus on Kerry's war support in this decade.

[Frederic Bastiat]

6. Dean is getting desperate

Now that Wesley Clark is the frontrunner!

[Hawkeye-X]

9. No he isn't

Clark is nowhere near the frontrunner status. Both Iowa and NH polls shows that Dean is still leading on both states. You were only looking at national polls, which means absolutely nothing. State polls is what matters, and so far Clark isn't anywhere in the frontrunner status. If you want to argue with me, then I will point the MOE is large enough to indicate that Dean and Clark are both frontrunners, not just Clark.

And Dean isn't desperate. He is very cordial with Clark, BUT Dean is pointing out that Clark supported Chimpy in 2001 and raised funds for the Republican Party. That, itself, is a different story altogether.

Hawkeye-X

[boxster]

20. I'd have to disagree.

While I'm sure many would argue that most polls are pretty meaningless at this time in the campaign, a national poll is certainly more indicative of overall support than quoting 2 state polls in which Dean happens to be ahead.

[ozone_man]

30. Not exactly, for a few reasons.

Some of the candidates, like Dean, do not have national exposure like Gephardt or Kerry, who have been in the senate for many years.

Then there is Clark, who has instant name recognition based on his general status, so when a national poll includes his title, it does have a sort of instant recognition, perhaps like General Eisenhauer.

Candidates like Dean have been working the early primary states and slowly spreading out to California, Michigan, Texas, Wisconsin, etc., developing national name recognition slowly. I think in another 3 to 5 months he should have the name recognition.

For now, I would pay a little more attention to the earlier primary states for that reason.

Also, look at the polls for those expected to vote in the Democratic primary, not polls for all Democrats, because you do have to win the primary first.

Who ever heard of a governor Clinton from Arkansas, yet he seemed to materialize out of nowhere from some little state down South. The same might happen to Dean.

[boxster]

32. Name recognition? How could anyone miss him?

Dean has been on the front cover of Newsweek, Time, etc., and has been on the news almost daily for months. If that isn't public exposure, I'm not sure what you expect to happen over the next few months.

His name recognition numbers in the national polls have been high for months. And, frankly, if they weren't, he wouldn't be consistently in the top three or so nationally.

[ozone_man]

34. Touche, I must confess my surprise,

when in outback hiking in Alaska, I stop in and see Dean grinning on the front cover of TIME magazine.

Still, not everyone reads that stuff. There's still time and hopefully many debates left for the public to study the candidates.

[RIindependent]

24. All I see in RI is Dean for America bumper stickers!

It seems to me that only the politically astute knows who the real leader for America is. Give me some of that stuff you are inhaling HawkeyeX. I want to spread it around.
I like Kerry (my first choice), I like Edwards, I like Kucinich, I like Clark (the DLC choice) but I really like Dr. Howard Dean. The man gives me goose bumps whenever I hear him speak. The front runners are Dean, Clark, Kerry, and Gephart; in that order. Whoever gets the nomination will also get 100% of my support and whatever money I can donate.
Unfortunately, this country is full of sheeple. However, it is our responibility DUers, to convince the sheeple to vote for the democratic candidate, whom ever it is, so America can be returned to
Americans and taken away from the facists that are now running and ruining this great country.
RIindependent

[Chico Man]

28. Welcome RIIndependent

Thats really quite interesting..

If you want to help spread more Dean stickers around RI check out http://www.rifordean.org

Thanks!!!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

37. Oh, Very Cordial

Let me put my arm around you, friend, while I spread stories that place you in a negative light, even though I don't really believe they really matter.

:eyes:

[w4rma]

8. The criticism (warranted or not) is over an alleged U-Turn, not "Vietnam"

That said. *I* have no opinion in either direction on this. This looks to me like Dean is tossing some of the flip-flop charges back at Kerry because that's what Kerry's main allegation on Dean has been. It appears to me that both sides quoted in the article are being truthfull, however I didn't read it that closely.

The Hill: Dean Assails Kerry on Vietnam War U-turn
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=669&ncid=669&e=1&u=/031015/180/5kgjc.html

[wyldwolf]

13. That's true, but most people won't see the distinction..

...it will look like someone who did not serve criticising someone who did.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

15. "Kerry blasts Dean on Vietnam"

now that's a headline I won't be surprised to see.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

16. Dems should unite to oust the Tyrant and quit bickering

:eyes::nuke:

[cjbuchanan]

17. I think this is a silly mistake

I understand what Dean is saying, but this is only going to help Kerry. I can already see this getting spun into a "Dean, who did not serve, does not think Vietnam experience is important" kind of story.

Also, I really do not think this needed to be pointed out because I do not think many people vote for a candidate because he or she served. If they did, I think we would be talking about President McCain right now.

In my opinion, Kerry does use his Vietnam experience a bit more then he should, but he is free to do that (please note that I am not saying anything bad about Kerry with this statement). I think Kerry will only hurt himself by overplaying the Vietnam card.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

[loyalsister]

23. My thoughts exactly

I do understand what Dean is saying, too. In fact, one thing that has bugged me about Kerry is my confusion in seeing the soldier turned protester suddenly glorifing his war experience. But, criticism with any reference to Vietnam will win Dean no friends.
The bottom line is it's all about demographics. Kerry is using his military experience to go after the elusive white male voters. It is my experience in talking to people that women are less impressed by him than men are. Harleys and hockey may impress the guys, but I've been pretty nauseated.
He has to make up for shedding some tears somehow, though. That's the sort of thing that appeals to women. I'm sure his people told him after that incident that it could cause him trouble with men. That's not to say it was contrived or that he's not campaigning the way a person trying to win a race, should. Without military service and\or machismo, Kerry would struggle with white men as much as other democrats do. Particularly because his complex intellectual analyses are more likely to appeal to women. Most men prefer black\white quick solution based answers. Thus, they respond to the soundbites offered by Republicans.
Dean has a natural advantage with women because he is a doctor (nurturing profession). But he's at a disadvantage with men. He tries to make up for it with tough talk and a simplified message. He's really pushing it with the anger thing. I'm getting turned off by some of his talk "scurrying like cockroaches" is pretty sickening to me.

[Rose Siding]

18. Can anyone explain to me

exactly where in the article "Dean blasts Kerry on Vietnam"?

I can't find it.

In fact, the only reference to Dean at all is here:

“Before he became a political candidate for president, John Kerry clearly believed that military service should not be used for political gain,” said Jay Carson, a spokesman for Dean, the former governor of Vermont who is running well ahead of Kerry in recent New Hampshire polls.

“And he was right about that,” Carson added. “Unfortunately, now John Kerry and his campaign have a strategy to use that record to further his political career.”

[boxster]

19. The title. n/t

[JaneQPublic]

21. Good point. There's not a single direct quote from Dean.

Only two from a spokesperson from the Dean campaign. And the article fails to describe the context in which those statements were uttered.

Most of the "blasting" of Kerry comes from the author of the article himself.

Sounds like quite a stretch by a political gossip rag to make a story out of next to nothing.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

38. Dean Is Responsible for Dean's Spokesperson

Come on, that's Politics 101.

DTH

[PurityOfEssence]

25. Okay, how about: "Dean spokesperson cites Kerry's service hypocrisy"?

That's what this person is doing, and it's pretty obvious. The gist of it is that Kerry's an unethical opportunist, attacking the use of war hero status when it suits him, and then using it when it's beneficial.

You're on pretty shaky ground here; it's pretty straightforward. The use of "Dean said"--when it's actually a mouthpiece--is a bit of boilerplate I'd like to see go bye-bye, but it's common usage that benefits and hurts all of them. Let's also say that people should stand by their spokespeople's slings and arrows.

This is not a great move on the part of the Dean camp.

Sorry, Dean supporters, but Kerry seems more honorable and trustworthy than Dean. You may not like him for being dry and for certain of his votes, (including the big one) but his long career has placed him on the correct side of things in a clear pattern. One way of looking at his qualifying of the war vote is making excuses, another way is to look at it as admitting his fallibility and understanding the complexity of the whole situation.

I'm hearing a lot of people in my daily life who agree that Dean has a mean streak and bugs them. Just because his supporters find themelves defending him all the time doesn't mean it's all jealousy, you know.

Kerry was right on the money when he commented that you can't be President if you're making a half-dozen gaffes a week. And, once again: the tactics that are admirable and useful for an underdog can often be seen as despicable and disastrous from a front-runner.

[Zolok]

22. Given the fact that Dr. Dean

has no qualms about touting his medical experience in campaign appearances why should he complain about JK's sterling record in the Navy?
I mean Dean and his followers get tarted up in Hospital fatigues now and again, what would they say if the Kerryites started wearing cammies to campaign events?
I have no doubt what the FunDeanmentalists would say here at the DU,
FASCISM
FASCISM FASCISM
Why won't Kerry confess to his CRIMES!?
His terrible awful CRIMES!?
:)

[RIindependent]

26. Zolok, is Kerry a fasist? Not according to my definition. But...

Kerry voted FOR bushes war resolution for never ending wars. Before the invasion of Iraq, there were numerous reports that WMD were nonexistent. Saddam was not a threat. If I knew it, why did not Kerry. He is a hero and later an anti war activist so Kerry knows what war is about; he has been there. But I will not support Kerry (unless he wins the nomiation) because he gave bush carte blanch on Iraq. Kerry is not a fascist, he is not owned by the corporations: to the best of my knowledge. And I will never ever, ever, ever, support gephart for that disgusting dispay of being a good puppy for predendident bush by supporting the war resolution and having his picture taken to be used for propaganda against the dems when the war to take back our country begins.
I am angry that Kerry capituilized to bush because he KNEW the score. As Bartcop says, he is a pink tutu democrate but not a fascist.
RIindepentent

[NNN0LHI]

27. I bet a dollar this subject is broached at the next debate n/t

[RIindependent]

29. I hope it is. Can I owe you one if it is?

The demo field has to get narrowed down to the top four. The others are great patriots and I salute them but they have to step down to enable the debate to choose a leader whom we can support.
RIindependent-man

[Racenut20]

31. Hmm. That would almost make Dean a "ChickenHawke" wouldn't it?

[Rose Siding]

36. It would if you were unclear on the definition of "chickenhawk"

[robbedvoter]

33. Kerry's serving and war protesting is the best part of him

(I wish he'd have stayed this good). Of course the war experience is something to be touted - it's what shaped Kerry's character - including his - unfortunately temporary-opposition to war.
It was BECAUSE he lived the horrors of Vietnam that he opposed it!
It's definitely more bragging material than skying at Aspen with a medical deferal (as an MD). (Sorry, guys, but my ex got a similar medical deferral from the army - not war - from his military MD father).
Dean's war experience reminds me of Rush's pain experience (he was golfing while medicating, rather than skying).
It bothered me when I heard it on MTP and wished it would go away - but it's Dean who made me think of it again with his despicable attack on Kerry for all the wrong reasons.

[RIindependent]

35. If experience is the best teacher why hasn't Kerry learned from this.

Sorry guys, Kerry KNEW BETTER, but he sided with bush! Stop making excuses. I am pissed that Kerry voted to give bush his unending war resolution!! I know all about Kerry's history. I like him, but he has to step up to the plate and utter his mea culpa's like a man for voting for shrub's war resolution. There are four top tier candidates for president: Dean, Clark, Kerry, and Gephart. So far, Dean and Clark look to me to be the best to be president of the USA.
Kerry has to be more something to get my vote. But if he gets that something I will support him. Go Dean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RIindependent

[GalleryGod]

40. "Like a man" ? I think he all ready proved that! YOU were where?

In the service of your country...Please refrain from "manhood" statements when you haven't passed the ultimate test yourself. If you are indeed a COMBAT veteran.I .of course,apologize.

[Chomskyite]

39. To quote Al Sharpton:

"Stop the bickering! Republicans are watching!"