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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:40 PM
Original message
Chavez Urges Venezuelans to Embrace Socialism, Poll Shows 28 Percent
Chavez Urges Venezuelans to Embrace Socialism, Poll Shows 28 Percent Support It

President Hugo Chavez urged Venezuelans on Sunday to embrace his "21st century socialism," while poll results showed less than one-third of the population supports the economic model. Speaking during his weekly radio and television program, Chavez called on Venezuelans to "leave behind any confusion or any type of fears, phantoms," regarding socialism.

Chavez has repeatedly called for the expansion of state-run cooperatives and increased volunteerism under a socialist political and economic model. He has directed billions of dollars in oil revenues toward public and social programs.
In Sunday's program, Chavez urged his countrymen to work "to build this road: Venezuelan socialism of the 21st century."

Chavez often tells Venezuelans that "being rich is bad" while calling capitalism a "savage" economic system used by the world's most powerful countries, including the United States, to "dominate and colonize" poor nations.

The results of a poll published Sunday in El Nacional daily showed that 28 percent of Venezuelans support the "socialist" model leftist Chavez is moving toward while slightly more than 28 percent said they favored a capitalist system. Others interviewed did not respond or said they were undecided. The survey questioned a sample of 1,300 Venezuelans and had an error margin of 2.7 percentage points.

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBCQC32ABE.html
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. the problem is the word--it's like an invitation for invasion
Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:



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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. Note that only 28% support capitalism. I'd call that an even horserace.
The rest have "no opinion" or did not respond.

So, the headline is a bit misleading, no?
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cheeseit Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
21. Good point! Classic AP headline.
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 10:56 AM by cheeseit
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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
40. Sounds like with a little tweaking he could quickly have 56% support
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
44. Because them are not real choices
The pontification of theories when in the actuality is people just want the basics of life.
Putting food on your family is more important :thumbsup:
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. Can you say "draft"?
Condi doesn't like any of this one little bit! Here's an exerpt from an article I wrote on Venezuela:


"Fox News can always be counted on to do their part in situations like this. On February 4, the network aired a report about Chavez's supposed "Iron Fisted Rule", saying he's becoming a totalitarian ruler and is funding guerilla operations. Less than two weeks later, on February 16, an alarming report said the CIA believed Venezuela was "the leading Latin American nation to be alarmed about in 2005".

No smear campaign would be complete without an official or two chiming in. It gets the war drums (I mean humanitarian aid drums) beating and prepares the American people for an imminent terrorist attack by the regime du jour. Officials call Chavez "an authoritarian menace", while Condoleeza Rice said he's a "destabilizing influence" in Latin America. "

:eyes:
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Venezuela was targeted before
Check "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". First they go in with gentle negotiators, then they try small-scale CIA-sponsored coups d'etat, then they invade.
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. CIA-sponsored coups d'etat
Yep, trying to screw with the election didn't work.

Now, it will become a "humanitarian crisis".

It probably won't be long before Chavez can be tied to Al Qaeda. :eyes:
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
20. Yeah, Bush's first attempt to remove Chavez....
.... using the Iran/Mossadegh (Kermit Roosevelt) method failed.

Next come the jackals.

And then the military -- though perhaps the Admin has put itself in a corner through their incompetence in the Middle East.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. You know the Admin is moving against Chavez...
... when they move beyond linking him to Castro (last century's boogeyman) to linking him w/ terrorists. ("al Qaeda in South America")
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. Capitalism isn't bad
...but unregulated capitalism is worse than bad. People should be allowed to make as much money as they can -- but with the sort of "integrity" on display in government, it needs aggressive oversight. No one should get anything but jail time for screwing their employees and/or customers.

Other than that, viva Chavez!
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Capitalism, as practiced in this world, IS the root of all evil.
We are "governed" by corporations on a global "race to the bottom", and the whole world is suffering from unprecedented greed.

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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. We don't disagree
I'm just pointing out that capitalism wasn't always practiced this way. And it needn't be.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. When was capitalism not practiced this way? EOM
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
42. 3 a.m.?
:shrug:
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
43. Maybe I'm naive
...but wasn't there a law or Constitutional amendment passed in the late 1800s that gave corporations the rights and protections of individuals? It seems that's where a lot of the trouble started.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. YES. It granted "personhood". And that IS when it started.
Edited on Tue Jul-19-05 12:15 AM by Carolab
This is in fact what the founding fathers (Jefferson) feared.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

The nail in the coffin was in 1913 when Wilson created the Fed--stripping the Congress of its constitutional role in coining and regulating currency.

http://www.bos.frb.org/about/pubs/begin.pdf#search='Wilson%20and%20the%20Federal%20Reserve%20Bank'

http://www.house.gov/jec/fed/fed/dollar.htm
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. Thanks, Carolab (nt)
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
22. Yes.
Lord knows communist and feudal systems of government NEVER caused any trouble. It's all the fault of those damn capitalists.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Straw man argument.
And there has never been a communist system of government in a modern nation state.

I think feudalism is an intesting comparison considering the parallels to our current economy. In both cases the majority of people require the permission of an owning class to work.
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OKthatsIT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. I agree...'profit margins' are destroying the entire planet
and all life. Our beloved Earth cannot withstand it. If we continue with this denial, it will be the end of us all.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. Why should people be allowed to exploit other people?
Just out of curiosity.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
7. If you really want to know what Chavez thinks, read his book.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1920888004/qid=1121664832/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-3413458-1163225?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

In it, he says the only industry he wants to keep nationalized is the oil company, PDVSA.

His 21st Century Socialism looks more like capitalism than the US's crony capitalism.
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FtWayneBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. P.S. - support it by buying your gas at Citgo. n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
8. Jesus condemned the rich to eternal damnation
Jesus said that to follow him one must give up all possessions, and he was not speaking of a celibate priesthood. He also said that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. No, Jesus did not "condemn the rich to eternal damnation."
What he said, to the rich young man, is that "in order to be perfect" you should sell all your possessions and "come, follow me." (The rich young man had spoken of his piety, his adherence to religious law, his tithing, his generosity toward the poor, etc., etc., and wanted to know what ELSE he could do, to be holy.)

It's true that the only anger Jesus ever displayed was toward the money-changers in the Temple. He routed them, because they were defiling the Temple, a holy place, but he did not condemn them to eternal damnation. His "eye of the needle" remark had to do with the DIFFICULTY of being rich and being holy. It wasn't a condemnation.

It's clear, though, that if Jesus had been asked about economic systems, the one he mostly likely would have endorsed is socialism. He lived communally, welcomed all, and treated all equally--rich, poor and sinner, men, women and children--with particular love for the oppressed and the downtrodden of any kind. (And communalism and equality were strong characteristics of the earliest Christian groups.)

That is the bitter irony of the predatory capitalism of today: Its very worst profiteers are trying to use Christianity to endorse greed and mass murder. They are very reminiscent of the more predatory animals within the Medieval nobility and within the Medieval Church, who also somehow managed to reverse Jesus' gentle message into a justification for crusades, pogroms, witch-burnings, and the acquisition of great wealth.

Christianity as a whole has come a long way from those days, and has learned many lessons. (Even the Catholic Church has learned some lessons about war and economic exploitation, if not about oppressing women.) (And however snotty they are about women becoming priests, they don't burn "witches" any more--that's progress!).

The rise of rightwingism within Christianity is very overblown. The news monopolies give the far right a big trumpet, to broadcast distinctly minority views, and make them seem more important than they really are. This serves the purposes of predatory capitalism and the Bush Cartel. But it is an untruth. Most Christians are peaceful and tolerant in their beliefs, hate war, hate predatory capitalism, and support measures to "level the playing field," such as unions and worker protections, a safety net for the poor, civil rights enforcement and so on. Christians, including many Catholics, were big supporters of the civil rights and antiwar movements of the 1960s. These people have not gone away--they are just being out-trumpeted, due to the overweening influence of war profiteering news corporations upon public debate.

(I am speaking, of course, of North American Christians, as a whole. There are also some quite radical leftist trends, especially in south/central America, of liberation theology and socialism, and some evidence of it in the north, for instance, among the Catholic Workers.)

I myself love business and trade. I think these are very human characteristics, based on our inherent creativity and love of novelty. Trade has almost always propelled us forward in our understanding of other peoples and cultures, and the success of middle-class tradespeople has often been the fundamental condition for progress, education and enlightenment. I think I must have been a caravanist in other life, back along the spice route. I just relish the color and variety of a true marketplace (of which our current corporate-controlled "malls" are a very distorted representation, and compare to a true marketplace much like Jerry Falwell or George Bush compare to true Christians).

It is PREDATORY capitalism that I hate. It actually kills creativity and invention. It tends to a mono-culture (very damaging biologically, as well as socially). And in the U.S. today, it is totally out of control. It is destroying our democracy, and all the sweetness of life, and has become a threat to life itself through the mayhem it is inflicting on our planetary environment. Our governmental "balance of powers" has utterly collapsed as a means of controlling these predators. And they now control our election system--which, over the last four years, has gotten into private hands--those of Bushite companies Diebold and ES&S--whose vote tabulation software is "TRADE SECRET," PROPRIETARY information!

The answer is BALANCE. The needs of society (socialism!) vs. the need to leave people alone and let them invent their lives and their livings. It is a difficult and delicate balance, and has not often succeeded. There are numerous efforts toward balance in various stages of progress, on a score of different issues (with medical care often as the lynchpin, in capitalistic economies)--in France, Germany, Ireland, Scandinavia, Canada, Great Britain, Spain, Brazil, Venezuela, Cuba, South Africa, South Korea, India, even in China, the great communist bugaboo which has been forced to liberalize its economy (to balance it the other way), and in Hawaii, which has socialized medicine, and Alaska, which, like Venezuela and Norway, has socialized (or partially socialized) oil money.

The trend toward BALANCE is very distinct. One of the few places it is NOT happening is in most of the U.S.A., which is extremely unbalanced and distorted toward the predators. California is a good example. It had built up a big budget surplus which was being distributed to education, to environmental programs, in higher salaries and pensions for teachers, nurses and all public employees, and in various "common good" programs--until it was outright stolen ($9 billion!) by the Bushite Enron Corporation, with the Bush regime refusing to protect the state, though it had the power to do so.

But the U.S. is an anomaly. Most other countries are trending the other way--toward balance, toward progressive values (if not outright leftism), toward democracy and toward peace. (There is even a liberalization and democracy movement in Iran, which the Bush Cartel is trying very hard to undermine.) (The political/economic trends in Islamic counties are a different topic, which I won't address here, except to say that the west has been a real bad actor in supporting dictatorships in these countries, and Islamic fundamentalism, which has a strong communal component, is in large part a reaction to the west's very wrongful deeds).

Chavez's "socialism" in Venezuela is part of this BALANCING trend. The vast poor of Venezuela have long been seriously oppressed, unrepresented in government, and robbed of most of the benefit of their own labor or the country's great oil wealth, and also robbed of land, so that even their ability of live hand to mouth, from their own plantings, was greatly reduced. Chavez is trending the other way. He is NOT a revolutionary in any traditional sense. He did not overthrow the government of the rich elite. He got elected! Twice! With great majorities! (The most recent, the Bush-backed recall election, was monitored by dozens of international groups, including the Carter Center, all of whom judged the election to be fair and aboveboard.)

To call him a dictator--or "increasingly totalitarian," or whatever they are saying this week--is absolute rubbish! The man helped write and pass the first Venezuelan Constitution. He helped write and pass the recall provision by which they tried to take him down. (The Bush Cartel infused millions of our taxpayer dollars into that campaign by the Venezuelan oil elite!) He is the exact opposite of a dictator. He is a former military man who CHOSE democracy, and has worked tirelessly for its success. He is the first and only leader of Venezuela who has ever represented the majority of its people. (He is also the first brown-skinned leader of Venezuela, whose population is mostly brown and poor.)

And bear this in mind. All Venezuelan media are owned by the rich oil elite, and have relentlessly propagandized against him, and still he won! Big! Twice! Like the US news monopolies, Venezuelan media basically detest democracy and are shills for corporate oil interests. They hate Chavez and his socialist notion that the poor should benefit from the country's resources--as well they might. It means a bit of a curb on the profits of the rich, a bit of sharing, a bit of Christianity! He hasn't taken their Jaguars away, or nationalized their corrupt "news media." He is just trying to be FAIR; to achieve BALANCE.

But, as we have learned here in the U.S., the goals of predatory capitalists and their corporate organizations are not fairness or balance. They don't even like competition and "free trade." They seek monopolistic control over us, our taxes, our votes, our labor and our resources, and those of all other countries. They have become a bloody menace throughout the world, and should be curtailed and de-chartered HERE, in the land that gave birth to them. We have the power to do that--to de-charter and dismantle them. That's why they took our away our right to vote.
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Great post...eom
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. Thank you for sharing your wisdom
I read your whole post because you speak the truth.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
41. That almost perfectly captures my beliefs
That is the greatest post I have ever read on DU. Kudos a thousand times over!
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r0x0r Mc0wnage Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #24
48. Humans are imperfect beings.
Any system we create will be flawed. I doubt gd would endorse any mortal economic model.

If the question were "which among these choices is the least bad", that would be different.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. The point of the eye of the needle thing is that you shouldn't die rich.
Jesus definitely didn't have a problem with entrepreneurialism.

He had a problem with people hording and accumulating wealth and not doing good things with it.

If you die rich, it means you missed the chance to do good things with your money. And if you didn't do all you could to help society and help others while you were alive, you're probably going to have a hard time getting into heaven.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
12. Perhaps he should just move in that direction,
but not use the s-word.

Condi will get her knickers in a twist, and Bush might choke on a
pretzel when they hear about it.

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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. He should use the word socialism.
Doing so will rally the Venezuelan people. Furthermore, I suspect that 28% support "socialism" in the Cuban model, while many others would support another, as-yet-unclear model. Furthermore, keep in mind that Venezuelan opinion polls are notoriously biased. They don't take proper account of the poorest, who most strongly support Chavez and socialism.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
13. Chavez approval rating above 70 percent
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/world/12154986.htm

CIUDAD GUAYANA, Venezuela - (KRT) - Standing before a group of nascent entrepreneurs, Carlos Lanz looked less like a former communist guerrilla than an aging university professor as he laid out the next phase of Venezuela's revolution.

Aiming a light pointer at graphics projected on a large screen, Lanz - who long ago laid down his weapon but not his ideals - outlined Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's plans for transforming this oil-rich nation into something approaching a workers' paradise.

"Venezuela suffers a distortion because many of us are excluded from production, from wealth and services," said Lanz, 62, a key architect of Chavez's reforms. "We are constructing a new economic model."

The road so far has been rocky. Faced with violent protests and a bitter recall referendum, Chavez spent his first six years in office fighting for his political life even as he poured billions of dollars into social programs.

But now, with the political opposition vanquished and oil prices near record highs, the Venezuelan leader is in a strong position to launch what he describes as "21st Century Socialism."

Eschewing Marxist-Leninism, Lanz says, Chavez has developed a unique economic model called "endogenous development" whereby state oil money will finance the creation of thousands of small-scale cooperatives in agricultural and other areas to provide jobs and foster community development.

A second leg of Chavez's master plan is something known as "cogestion," roughly translated as co-management, where the state is helping workers purchase shares of companies they work in to give them a greater say in management.

The goal of all this, they say, is to lift millions out of poverty by reducing Venezuela's reliance on Big Oil, which has left the country with a weak manufacturing and agricultural base and overdependent on imports of food and almost everything else.

"We hand over cheap raw material to The Empire (the United States) and the multinational corporations, and they sell us very expensive goods," said Lanz, who describes the nation's business elite as a "parasitical oligarchy."

"So who benefits? People in the North."

The son of a wealthy farmer who became a leftist rebel in the 1960s, Lanz is using cogestion to revamp CVG Alcasa, an obsolete and mismanaged state-owned aluminum plant in this scorching city about 330 miles southeast of the capital, Caracas.

The key change Lanz has implemented in his three months at the helm is allowing workers to elect their own managers, the first step, he and others say, to improving efficiency and production.

"Now decisions are not made by one person in an office," explained Alcides Rivero, a 23-year Alcasa employee, as he walked past huge stacks of aluminum ingots. "Now decisions are made around a table. We elect who will direct us. It's not imposed from the top."

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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
17. RE: 28% - the lack of an example and the effect of US terror
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 10:19 AM by K-W
There is a reason that the US has crushed every single attempt by any state to create a successful socialist society. As long as no developing country has done so, others will be reluctant to try something new.

In the past support for socialism has been a death sentance in Latin America.
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mountebank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
19. I think Chavez would have better success by
incorporating some elements of the capitalist system with some elements of the socialist system. For examples, stress that the competetive model of capitalism is fine when the losses can be calculated with dollar signs, not with human lives (as it so often is in the U.S. and other, usually third-world, countries that predatory capitalists prey on). In other words, limited, regulated capitalism in some sectors, say telephone services (off the top of the head), while other sectors, such as health care, use a centralized socialist model.

To out-capitalist the capitalists by showing them that there is a better, more humane way of running their own system would be a powerful example and would curtail much of the criticism of Chavez. But then again, Chavez thrives on this criticism; but I'm afraid it's not of much use to the Venezuelan people.

Don't get me wrong, I am currently in favor of Chavez and his reforms; there are just few examples where the head of state of a highly centralized country has ever done right by his people. Chavez's highly charged rhetoric makes me somewhat suspicious about his designs, I'm sorry to say, since they appear to benefit no one but himself.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. The highly charged rhetoric tends only to be in the Tampa Bay press.
If you read his book (the amazon link is in my earlier post in this thread) you'll see that he is in favor of hybrid form of socialism which has a great deal of capitalism in it.

The only industry they want to keep nationalized is PDVSA.

They want to start collectives to encourage entrepreneurialsim in industries that make sense for VZ to be in and the governtment is only involved to get the investment ball rolling and not to control the means of production. For example, aluminum is a very large export in Venezuela. However, the reimport it at a huge markup when they buy airplanes, so Chavez wants the government to invest in starting a worker-controlled airplane manufacturing company.

Now, you can see why the press in a country where they make a lot of airplanes would want to characterize this as something really awful. But it actually just makes perfect economic sense. And it's not really Marxist at all.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. True, but remember...
snubbing any American Corporation is enough to make you an enemy for life, and vulnerable to subversion and invasion even. We have subverted countries because fruit companies had profits threatened, I wonder how Boeing will feel about this type of plan. For myself, Viva Chavez!
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r0x0r Mc0wnage Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #23
46. "Chavez wants . . . [an] airplane manufacturing company."
As a former paratrooper, the man knows the value of a good airplane :think:
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. As a guy who used to sell his grandmother's spidercakes,
he knows the economics of buying and selling. Venezuela could make more money off its aluminum if the value were added in Venezuela rather than in Candada or Brazil.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. I think its best not to equate capitalism with competition or markets.
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 12:47 PM by K-W
Niether of which are inherently capitalistic.

In fact I would argue that capitalism is anti-competitive and anti-market.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. ?
More details please.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Sure.
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 03:14 PM by K-W
Competition is fairly natural and has and would exist in any economy.
Markets are just structured exchanges. They do not imply or require any particular economic theories.

Now in capitalism, particularly laissez faire capitalism, all decisions regarding the economy are made by private owners of property. The more property you have the more of the economy you control.

So the question is, if the economy is mainly responsive to large property owners, will it favor free markets and competition?

Do the people who are already wealthy want competition? And on the same note do they really want a market where people are free to compete with them and free to choose thier competitors?

This is why, left to its own devices, capitalism leads to monopoly or cartels. There is a reason we need laws to keep some small level of competition in our economy, if you can call having entire national industries shared by a handful of companies who actively cooperate competition.
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. I think I see your point...
If you mean that owners actually do not want competition- they want to destroy competition so they can have a virtual monopoly in a given product market. I find that notion to be intriguing given that capitalists always love to talk about "competition" when it comes to de-regulating industries and privatizing government concerns.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. The guy with a head start always likes to talk about competition.
And in situations where they know they will win, they LOOOOVE to compete.

The same is true on the national level. In any industry where the US has a competitive advantage it is all about free markets, but in industries where we dont, you will often see major protectionist moves.

That is the underlying fact of capitalism. The system is accountable to wealth, not to people.

So yes, there are markets and competition in various places in the economy, but they wouldnt be there if they didnt contribute to an overall economy where the entire society is working largely to support the lifestyles and preferences of the priveledged few.
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Hence the real need for government regulation to ensure fair competition
and to protect employees, smaller companies, consumers, and the environment.

I like the cut of your jib, K-W.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #19
54. It's not as though Chavez is opposed to 'private entrepeneurship'.
It is quite possible to have socialism and private businesses, as long as the businesses are not allowed to dominate the policy making process and are not allowed to hoard wealth.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Socialism is not against family owned businesses
You won't lose your house or your car under socialism, or be forced to go into a trade or profession that you don't want. Socialism offers more choices than capitalism, and removes the restrictions so common in capitalist countries such as access to health care that was before available to the rich.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. Now if only "moderates" everywhere would understand this...
if they'd understand that such things as tax-funded 'collective' Healthcare and Social Security are in fact socialist, that might put socialism in a new perspective for them.
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mike923 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
37. Question about Venezuela
Is Chavez elected, and if so what is their election cycle? Every two years or every four, ect.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. His party has won 6 elections in 8 years by increasing margins.
He won his first election in the late 90s on a platform of enacting a new constitution.

When they passed the new constitution, the new constitutions would have allowed the existing government to continue, but Chavez's party opted for another election, which they won by a bigger margin. Then there was a recall election, in there, which Chavez also won.

I believe the terms are 6 years (with a recall allowed after 3).

In the book I mentioned above it goes over all this.

Chavez is up for election in either 2006 or 2008.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
45. It's a shame we're getting information from El Nacional.
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 11:26 PM by Judi Lynn
Most DU Venezuela watchers learned a long time ago this "newspaper" is an opposition outlet, and not likely to print anything resembling the truth about Venezuela's president.
After Chávez came to power in 1998, the five main privately owned channels – Venevisión, Radio Caracas Televisión (RCTV), Globovisión, Televen and CMT – and nine out of the 10 major national newspapers, including El Universal, El Nacional, Tal Cual, El Impulso, El Nuevo País and El Mundo, have taken over the role of the traditional political parties, which were damaged by the president’s electoral victories. Their monopoly on information has put them in a strong position. The give the opposition support, only rarely reporting government statements and never mentioning its large majority…Their investigations, interviews and commentaries all pursue the same objective: to undermine the legitimacy of the government and to destroy the president’s popular support…the media is still directly encouraging dissident elements to overthrow the democratically elected president – if necessary by force…” <2>
(snip)
http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/MediaOpposition.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When a massive pro-government demonstration in Caracas on October 13 showed that a good portion of “the rest of the country” supported Chavez, the editorial board of Venezuela’s elite-controlled newspaper, El Nacional was incensed. ,El Nacional, which commissions and publishes polls by Datanalisis, disparagingly referred to Chavez’s supporters as “lumpen” who were lured from the country’s interior with “a piece of bread and some rum” to “come and cheer the great con man of the nation.”

As the Venezuelan anthropologist Johnny Alarcón Puentes points out, the terms "lumpen, rabble hordes, drunks, riff-raff and mobs are only some of the epithets foisted by the wealthy on citizens of dark skin, on street merchants, on workers, on the indigenous and on all those who live in slums or modest neighborhoods and dare raise their voice against the powerful.”

Thus, from the warped perspective of much of the opposition, Datanalisis’ contention that "the rest of the country" opposes Chavez makes sense. Since elites are the people that “matter,” and those of less privilege can be reduced to virtual sub-human status, poor and working-class Chavez supporters do not qualify as part of “the rest of the country.”
(snip/...)
http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=2985§ionID=45

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Pathetic, isn't it?

On edit: my emphasis, of course.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #45
51. More "substance" from El Nacional.....
"In recent months, Venezuela’s powerful opposition has repeatedly suggested that violence is a viable solution to the country’s political problems. While the government of President Hugo Chávez has stated firmly that it will respect and adhere to the rule of law, the opposition has not followed suit. In an interview from Miami, published on July 25, 2004 in the Venezuelan opposition newspaper El Nacional, former Venezuelan President again insisted that violence is the only option remaining for those Venezuelan’s who oppose President Chávez.
“…{D}emonstrations don’t topple governments… We can’t abandon the streets. We must be in the streets, but not with dancing and idiocies like that… There will be violence…I am working to get Chávez out. Violence will permit his ouster. It is the only path we have… I am part of that battalion. As it sounds, it should be understood. I am part of this battalion….Chávez should die like a dog, that is what he deserves, begging the pardon of those noble animals...” "<1>
http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/capviolence.htm

Photos of the handiwork of Carlos Andres Perez, who calls for killing Hugo Chavez: http://abn.info.ve/galeria/show.php?carpeta=El%20Caracazo.%20Fotos%20Frasso.%201989



Perez with his pal.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 03:29 AM
Response to Original message
52. Most Venezuelans Prefer Socialism (Prensa Latina)
Looks like there is another point of view of the poll:

Most Venezuelans Prefer Socialism
By Prensa Latina

7-18-05,11:14am

Caracas, (Prensa Latina) With a social policy favoring the majority, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is successfully achieving his goal of ending prejudice against socialism in the country.

The president disclosed a poll Thursday revealing 47.9 percent of Venezuelans favor a socialist government, 25.7 percent support capitalism, and 24.6 percent did not answer the question.

The survey was done last May 26-June 9 by a private enterprise, and Chavez said although most of Venezuelans prefer socialism over capitalism, the number of undecided people is still high. He called for a continuous ideological offensive "to defeat ghosts."

The Venezuelan president, a self-declared socialist, reiterated in his regular talks with the population that socialism is the only way to overcome privatization, poverty, and a backward state.

http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/1507/1/109/


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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. The only thing I was afraid of with Chavez is that he'd turn out to be
a docrtrinaire Marxist and state-socialist.

I can't convey how impressed I am that he seems to be following the cooperative-socialist path instead.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 03:43 AM
Response to Original message
53. Venezuela in effect already is socialist, thanks to Chavez,
who enjoys overwhelming popular support, much unlike certain other world leaders.
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