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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 12:21 PM
Original message
Clark Speaks of Friction With Pentagon
Wesley Clark, the retired four-star general who is running for president, got himself in hot water with his Pentagon bosses more than once in his 34-year military career.

<...>

Clark campaign spokesman Matt Bennett said no one, particularly a high achiever such as Clark, can go through a 34-year career without ruffling some feathers or bruising egos. Further, the campaign pointed to a number of former generals who speak well of Clark.

Retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey, who has known Clark for decades and counts him a friend, said one source of friction comes from the fact that Clark the intellect was not a natural fit in the Army culture. But he says Clark nonetheless proved himself a kind and capable leader.

"Look, for 34 years when there was a tough problem the local leadership asked Wes Clark to take on the problem," McCaffrey said. "This guy has been incredibly successful at doing the country's business."

Two other retired lieutenant generals who worked with Clark, Dan Christman and Don Kerrick, said friction involving Clark was to be expected as he tried to balance the interests of NATO allies and the United States.

"We knew that he was a man of his word and that he would deliver what we expected," said Kerrick, who was deputy national security adviser to President Clinton when Clark was at NATO.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=703&e=7&u=/ap/20031011/ap_on_el_pr/clark_military

DTH
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. Big whoop... Barry McCaffrey, poster boy for war crimes in Gulf War 1
Of course, what else would you expect him to do, in view of Clark's distinguished service as the NATO commander in Kosovo?

McCaffrey had a similarly spectacular record of achievement, during the first Gulf War, as exhaustively researched by Sy Hersch in The New Yorker:

http://www.geocities.com/cpa_blacktown/20000627hershtnyus.htm
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Documenting Clark's record of achievement in Kosovo:
From Robert Fisk, one of the most independent and accurate war correspondents:

http://www.geocities.com/cpa_blacktown/20000209rfiskinduk.htm
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. Lots of criticisms in this piece.
snip>
Plenty of generals in the U.S. military have been chewed out, of course. And plenty of Clark's former colleagues in the military speak highly of him. But it is notable that a number of fellow retired officers now speak frankly about what they see as his shortcomings as a leader.
snip>

Heated disputes over strategy and tactics, particularly during combat, are inevitable among officers at that level, but not questions about personal ethics.

So it raised eyebrows last month when the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs, retired Gen. Hugh Shelton, gave a barbed answer when asked what he thought about Clark as a presidential candidate.

"I've known Wes for a long time," Shelton said. "I will tell you the reason he came out of Europe early had to do with integrity and character issues, things that are very near and dear to my heart. ... I'll just say Wes won't get my vote."
snip>

Several other retired officers, while crediting Clark for tremendous intellect and determination, also raise questions about trustworthiness and whether his personal ambition and drive to succeed caused him to overstep his bounds and go outside the established chain of command.



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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. What A Bunch Of Divas! Jeez, Worse Than Women
Edited on Sat Oct-11-03 01:18 PM by cryingshame
:D

I founded and ran an Organization for women artists- what a bunch of divas... cut throat politics for a local club with about 30 women.

One can only imagine the amount of ego in a room with a bunch of Generals and Wannabees... with everyone wanting to claw their way into power.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Good analogy.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. When Powell retired and was the subject of political
speculation, there was a similar amount of backbiting that went on. Powell was called a 'waterwalker,' and people said -- anonyomously -- that his path was cleared because of his race. Obviously, those aren't the kinds of allegations people would want their names attached to, unlike these against Clark. The military is rife with petty jealousies, and the fact that Clark was able to succeed in that environment is one of the reasons I decided he had the stuff to make a great president.
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. But unlike Powell, the complaints against Clark are not 'Anonymous'
Right now, Clark is about my 8th favorite Democratic candidate. I *do* like him better than Lieberman and Graham, and would certainly support him against Bush. I'm just not that happy about what he's done in the military. There is potential there, intelligence, even a relatively articulate voice. He just seems like he could be more than a bit of a hypocrite, especially when it comes to his own record.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. You're Right, They're Not Anonymous...They're Republicans
Think about it.

DTH
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Notice the headlines never mention they are Republicans?
When a Democrat attacks a Republicans, it always mentions they are a Democrat in the headline and tries to make Democrats seem like petty partisans.

When a Republican attacks a Democrat, it rarely mentions they are Republican and tries to make it look like they are just objective people attacking the dirty Democrats.

That's the "liberal media" spin machine for you.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Sore he didn't drink their kool-aid?
Crybabies. Too bad for them.

Julie
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. They were anonymous because of the nature of the attacks.
Edited on Sat Oct-11-03 04:57 PM by BillyBunter
They didn't want to get caught up in accusations of racism, although their attacks were clearly race-based. But the tone was the same: waspish and bitter. I also recall some rather nasty things were said about Schwarzkopf -- he was arrogant, a blowhard, he hogged the limelight, blah blah blah. It seems that only deeply flawed people can reach the highest rungs of the military, or else minor flaws, or other peoples' negative perceptions, are blown out of proportion. For better or for worse, I have personal experiences with the same types of attacks Clark dealt with, and there is nothing you can do to appease the kind of people who make them. If you work hard to succeed, you are brownnosing; if you make certain the people you lead are excelling, you are pushing your people for your own glorification, and of course, if you don't push the people you lead, you aren't doing your job. It's a no-win situation. You cultivate the relationships you can, and minimize the damage from the negative relationships, do the best job you can, and let the chips fall. It's part of personal politics.



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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. You cant make an omlette w/o breaking a few eggs...
...I am sure he did ruffle the feathers of a few Right-wingers in the military...oh well, looks like he had a fine career just the same...
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
7. Thanks for posting - DU's response should be amusing
It's such a no-win situation for Clark regarding support & lack thereof from other folks in the Pentagon and the military -- particularly when it comes to DU.

If he got 100% support from military colleagues, the outcry would be "They like him! Clark is bad" -- and then if he didn't get the support, we'd hear "They don't like him! Clark is bad"

Overall the article gives the impression of mixed reviews from colleagues. So he's human and has a backbone. Surprise, surprise!
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. True.
"Trouble with generals" would be a commendation to those who themselves have trouble with generals, no?

Surprises? Hardly.

And, mojo, I believe that in the end, Sy Hersh has not come down saying that McCaffrey is a war criminal. The abysmal, lurch ending to that war was Shrub's daddy's fault.


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imhotep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. who cares
Wake me up when Clark speaks of friction with defense industry.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. You like to sleep, eh?
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. there's a saying in Hollywood ....
something to the effect of: "you're not anybody unless somebody hates you".

Meaning if you haven't pissed a few people off, you haven't gotten anywhere.

And from my experience it's very true.
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
12. How many people had problems with Bush - why isn't that a front page story
Anytime any no name right winger says anything bad about a Democrat, it's front page news everywhere.

The Pope or Jesus could attack Bush and you wouldn't see it anywhere in the news.

The media is so biased.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. They have trouble finding Bush's efficiency report for a year.
Because he was AWOL!
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Bush AWOL is not a news story
Any Republican attacks Clark and it's on the front page.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
18. I admire Clark's "character issues."
We've all heard the story by now. A few weeks back, Gen. Hugh Shelton, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was at a forum in California where he was asked, "What do you think of Gen. Wesley Clark, and would you support him as a presidential candidate?"

"I've known Wes for a long time. I will tell you the reason he came out of Europe early had to do with integrity and character issues, things that are very near and dear to my heart. I'm not going to say whether I'm a Republican or a Democrat. I'll just say Wes won't get my vote." Shelton replied.

There are two problems with that statent. The first is unless Shelton reveals what those "integrity and character issues" are, the charges are meaningless and they show a lack of integrity unto themselves. Afterall, how can Wesley Clark possibly rebutt them if he doesn't know what the issues are? This is like someone telling you on your wedding day, "I wouldn't marry him/her if I were you... I'm not going to say why... just trust me..." Huh? How does one respond to that?

The second problem is the assertion that Clark came out of Europe early based on the mysterious and vague charges of "integrity and character" issues. In all actuality, Clark was relieved of duty based on personal vendettas carried by General Hugh Shelton and Admiral Leighton (Snuffy) Smith. It was Shelton who called Clark to inform him that his nato assignment would end early. (According to Waging Modern War, Shelton would not even show Clark the courtesy of extending the phone call a few minutes to work out a face-saving exit.) President Clinton privately told Clark, "I had nothing to do with it." http://www.farcaster.com/mhonarchive/hauserreport/msg00467.html

So what drove General Shelton to the decision to recall a very successful General from the field after executing a very successful war?

He directly crossed Admiral Leighton Smith, the four-star commander of Mediterranean nato forces. Although nato demanded a full Serb withdrawal from the besieged city of Sarajevo, Smith urged that a brief bombing pause in early September be extended indefinitely, since, as he explained to Ambassador Richard Holbrooke, he thought the United States had no business intervening. But Clark, then still a three-star, insisted in a heated telephone call that the bombing should continue as planned. As Holbrooke writes in To End A War, "I could tell from the noises emanating from Clark's cell phone that he was being scolded by a very angry, very senior American naval commander." Smith--who quickly alerted his superiors to Clark's insolence--had the inclinations of nato policymakers on his side; after all, heads of state had neglected Bosnia as long as was politically tolerable. But Clark was right, and he won: The bombing resumed and caused the Bosnian Serbs to withdraw from Sarajevo within two weeks of Clark's clash with Smith. That November, the warring parties met at Dayton to negotiate a peace accord. Clark was soon afterward awarded his fourth star--despite ferocious resistance from the Army, which would have preferred his retirement. http://www.farcaster.com/mhonarchive/hauserreport/msg00467.html

During the above-mention events, President Clinton seethed, privately calling Smith insubordinate, and eventually forcing the admiral to resume action. http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/books/2001/0109.thompson.html

So, we see, Clark defied Admiral Smith, won Clinton's backing, and resumed the campaign. The intervention ended less than two weeks later.

So here's the setup. Clark defied Admiral Smith. Smith alerted his superiors to Clark's "insolence" (but apparantly not Bill Clinton, who agreed with Clark and disagreed with Smith.) Those superiors were most likely Richard Cohen and General Shelton.

Shelton, Smith, and Cohen were angry. Not only had they been defied, but they were proven wrong and were not backed by their Commander in Chief.

They fought Clark being awared his Fourth star - wanting him retired instead. They had been out manuervered by Wesley Clark and Clark won the Kosovo intervention. Embarassing to be sure.

I don't know how thick Admiral Leighton W. Smith and General Shelton were during the Kosovo conflict, before it, or after it, but they have both been guest speakers at the Patterson School of Diplomacy and International Commerce.

http://www.uky.edu/RGS/Patterson/faculty.htm

I would suspect their association goes back a bit further.

As for Clark and his "character issues," he "risked his career to confront the uniformed reluctance to use force in defense of human rights."

Clark was disliked (even hated?) by the upper Pentagon brass because...

1. Such liberal/progressive views like humanitarian missions and nation building for the military made the Pentagon uneasy...

Despite his credentials as a warrior - 34 years in the Army, including a Silver Star, two Bronze Stars and a Purple Heart earned in Vietnam - {Clark} argues that the U.S. military must learn how to perform such nontraditional functions as peacekeeping and even nation-building, because that's what it will be doing in the 21st century, like it or not. And, since it's no small task to turn gung-ho soldiers into order-keeping policers, it's all the more urgent that the entire military start rethinking its doctrine immediately.

Paradigm-shifting views such as these did not make Clark popular with his superiors at the Pentagon, including former Secretary of Defense William Cohen.


http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=article&pubID=528

2. Wesley Clark welcomes homosexuals in the military

I'm not sure that I'd be in favor of policy. I supported that policy. That was a policy that was given. I don't think it works. It works better in some circumstances than it does in others. But essentially we've got a lot of gay people in the armed forces, always have had, always will have. And I think that, you know, we should welcome people that want to serve. - MSNBC

Former NATO supreme commander Wesley Clark says it is time for the ban on gays in the military to be lifted. - gayPASG


3. Clark was/is too intelligent for the military "culture."

...General Barry McCaffrey told the Washington Post: "This is no insult to army culture ... but he was way too bright, way too articulate, way too good looking and perceived to be way too wired to fit in with our culture."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1044318,00.html

I would say these sound like integrity and character issues I admire.
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DemCam Donating Member (911 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Good reading, wyldwolf
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. A reasoned admiration.
I can admire that.

Plus, when catty Hugh made his dig with the 'disclaimer' that he wouldn't say what party he belonged to, you could smell the BS coming through the tv.

:toast:

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. excellent research- a must read post folks!
thanx!
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catforclark2004 Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. 12 additional articles written by mainstream media back in '99/00
This is a real treasure trove of information on the General's dismissal and the circumstances. We have to watch this media, as they are trying to rewrite history!
http://wesleyclark.h1.ru/departure.htm
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WesWinger Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #18
29. Wes measures up
Outstanding work wyldwolf! Perhaps you should contact Mickey Kantor about getting on board with the Wes Wing Team.

WesWinger
:yourock:
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
20. THIS is great news..........A man that can stand on his own 2 feet.
He doesn't need to be held up like a puppet like the other
generals!!
My god!!!..Those other generals don't even know when they
are working under a tyrranny that isn't on their side. They
like always just go along with the program even if it is a threat
to humanity!!!!

They have royally tick me off as much as the thugs in the WH!!!
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
22. Clark wanted to go into Rwanda
If this doesn't say something about the man I don't know what does. If you think about Shrubs policies he went into Iraq because Sadam was a dictator. Well there are many dictators out there and we aren't invading all of those countries. What's up with that!

Clark wanted Clinton to send troops to Rwanda where hundreds of thousands died. That really says something about his character.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
27. all great leaders make enemies
Look what happened to Lincoln for obvious instance.

Clark is obviously not a "yes man".

thank God.
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