Scientology case takes its toll

[DoYouEverWonder]

July 9, 2005

Former Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Joan Wood has relinquished her Florida medical license in the wake of a state health department claim that she "became an advocate for the Church of Scientology" in a bitter dispute over the 1995 death of Scientology member Lisa McPherson.

Wood changed the probable cause of death from "severe dehydration" to "accident" based on "factors other than objective anatomic findings," according to an administrative complaint. She also let "personal bias or prejudice" affect her decision to amend the original ruling.

In her handling of the McPherson case, the department's complaint said, Wood "failed to practice medicine with that level of care, skill and treatment which is recognized . . . as being acceptable under similar conditions and circumstances."

Wood, 60, termed the state's claims "baloney."

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/07/09/Tampabay/Scientology_case_take.shtml


I wonder if Wood had any clue who and what she was dealing with when she went up against the 'Church' of Scientology?

[Modem Butterfly]

1. THANK-YOU!

We have been waiting for this news for ten years now. THANK-YOU!

[PATRICK]

39. Yes, that cleared up a lot

Under the bluster of lies one begins really to wonder what the truth is. The more mundane aspect really reveals the man and it also instructs us how to evaluate men of self made myth.

One tends to go to a counter-balancing extreme of saying the person is a total zero or someone with a nastier, intelligent agenda. There is little truth to focus on. And here, as it appears, is person who makes his entire life out of fantasy because that is the sole bridge to actual accomplishment- living off hack science fiction, a crafted life history legend and a religion scam. This is the tale of many artists, cult leaders and assorted rogues.

On a small scale I met one of these unblinking tale tellers(he, the of the faraway LA PD). We were working as simple security guards(and I mean the walk around the deserted plant, no weapons, no fuss type). He was big as his mouth as well. I learned later that he'd taunt and insult our boss, a much smaller guy, but whose temper was about ten sizes taller.

He raged and fumed about being humiliated in the bar by a guy who probably would break him like a pretzel.

Until I told him how the hero(what was he doing as a security guard anyway?) wouldn't go his rounds because he saw some a mouse or rat or something outside. "There's mice out there!" Normally if you saw a big man shiver you'd feel a thrill of terror. All I could feel was disbelief. Yes, I said, there are deer and woodchucks and nothing as bad as the wasps in the door frames. Maybe there was no wild life in LA. I was not one of the gaping audience but I was wondering if THAT was the truth either, but apparently it was truer than anything about California.

So with our lieutenant confiding in me about this guy, I dutifully reported the mouse story and IMHO that the guy was both a liar and coward. "Really? You're sure? This guy could kill me."

He faced the braggart down in the bar and his erstwhile fans saw him back down. They kicked him out. Then the boss waited until he missed rounds again and canned him. The longer story is better but that sums it up.

It takes a lot of effort to do what turns out as simple as pricking a hot air balloon. The wall of lies is always formidable and demands the kind of courage the lair can never ever have. Whatever weak psychological need that makes these manipulative pretenders they are only a pathetic menace when enabled. Its up up and away or whoosh.

Hubbard's life story reads like his badly overblown stories. Too much so. But he was smart and one had to wonder if his agendas were a lot more impressive and clever still.

And they are not. Neither are these monsters bloated with power we rant about these past years. Pathetic and cowardly to the core, but buoyed by success which must ever push upward because it cannot let up without crashing to earth. And the wary arrogance is looking us in the eye trying to see if we swallow all this sh*t and more importantly, what we are going to do about it- although scarily, they hold the greatest reins of wealth and power the world has ever know.

We have let the Hubbards of this world phony their way into extraordinary positions of harm. Nothing could be sadder, crazier, or more of a dread challenge. A challenge that enough of the right people are willing to look at because it demands action.

But, like the crowd in the bar, a large mass of entertained victims are in fact the greatest barrier and the greatest pity in dealing with simple bu####it.

[ET Awful]

2. Wood disgraced the medical profession and made every attempt to

rob the McPherson family not only of their legal due from the "church" which killed their daughter, but of the absolute right to know exactly how and why their daughter died.

She deserves more than just a loss of her license, she deserves jail time.

[JoFerret]

3. Could it make a good film?

....and is there a role for Tom Cruise?

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. Oh, you bad, YOU bad!

[tanyev]

7. Snap!

:spank:

[blogslut]

5. huh

So the XENUTS starved the woman to death or she stopped eating. Either way they let her go to the brink of death before they took her to a hospital.

Nice

[ET Awful]

6. No, they went and TOOK HER OUT OF THE HOSPITAL

then starved her, then when she collapsed completely and stopped responding, instead of taking her to the closest hospital, they took her to one farther away where there was a doctor who was a Scientologist.

Let's not over-simplify this.

[bleedingheart]

8. Just Released - Tom Cruise Says Water Isn't Necessary for Human Life

...Mr. Cruise has stated "For years medical doctors have been telling people to drink water...but I say they will become addicts...Addicts!!!!"

[icymist]

9. Tom Cruise is nuts!

http://www.tomcruiseisnuts.com/

Inquiring Thetans want to know!

[DoYouEverWonder]

10. I want to know

the receipt for the kool-aide they drink, so I can stay away from it. It's worse then the brown acid.

[sleipnir]

17. Hilarious website!

That was fun!

[GoneOffShore]

21. Thanks for the link

That is an extremely funny site. And TC is condemned by his own words.
Never really thought much of him as an actor. Always thought he was just another cocky, pretty boy. John Wayne was much better at playing himself than TC has ever been - probably because he doesn't know who he is.
And Xenu and L. Ron haven't done a thing to help him, just taken his money.

[icymist]

27. If we could only get the same guys to do a George W. Bush site...

in this same formate.... wouldn't that be great? Come on.... An old hippie can dream, can't she?! Still, Look at this.... could it be?........

on edit for spelling.

[VegasWolf]

31. Even Thetans need water for Kool-Aid. nt

[Bake]

14. "Do you KNOW the history of water, Matt? I DO!"

Speaking of wild-eyed crazies ... Tom, you're up there.

Bake

[goclark]

42. Kidding? Link?

[Tennessee T]

11. Scien-folly-gee

Scientology's core belief:
Who is XENU? Answer, XENU is the main villain that 75 million years ago kill billions of people on planets in our galaxy. Then XENU and his psychiatrists forced their souls to watch movies about, Christ and Hitler thus creating the myth of Christ.(That's why they are down on pshchiatry.)
These souls clustered together and today inhabit living people. They are called 'body thetans'. This is what Scientology claims to expel from people thus ridding them of mental illness and the delusion of Christ.
What do you expect from a mentally disturbed mind like L. Ron Hubbard that said in the late 1940s: "Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion"
Tom Cruise is the one that is delusional. It costs $300,000 to $500,000 to know this, So, the Scientologists whose dues have not paid the full amount over a period of time do not know this.

[zalinda]

12. Wow, a woman loses her license and

you celebrate. After reading the article, I find nothing that says Scientolgists killed her, only a government that wanted them guilty. Just like the Shiavo case, this has become a hate fest. We do not know what happened with McPherson, SHE checked herself out of the hospital. She had that right, she also had the right to call people she felt would help her.

Now, any time Scientology is mentioned the hate fest begins, if you said the same things about Jews or Muslims, you would be called bigots.

zalinda

[K-W]

13. And that justifies a doctor falisfying records how?

"Now, any time Scientology is mentioned the hate fest begins, if you said the same things about Jews or Muslims, you would be called bigots."

First off, you are confusing scientology, a repulsive organization and ideology designed to fool people with scientologists, who I consider victims.

Secondly, Jews and Muslims are ethnic groups as well as religions.

Also, if Judiasm was a for profit cult invented by an unstable Sci fi writer to cover up his tax evasion and make his new age self help business even more lucrative, I doubt anti-semitism would be considered such a bad thing.

And you make one of the more common Scientologist errors, you mistake the freedom of religion, with the freedom from scorn and mockerey.

You can practice whatever religion you want, you do not get a free pass from being mocked or critisized for it.

[zalinda]

16. According to the article, she didn't falsify anything

she revised it, after she talked to other doctors, and received more info. Plenty of other doctors have done the same thing, but have not been accused of complicity with the "enemy".

If you think that religions aren't in it for the money then you're living in a cave. Scientology just is up front about it. I find that much more refreshing then having a plate passed around at every church service, with glares when you don't put something in it.

An as far as how, or why Scientology was created, all you have are some person's opinion on it that has been deemed by hate mongers, as the truth. I am betting I could find disgusting and hateful reasons why each religion was created. Absolutely no religion has had lilly white hands in how their religion was grown, or managed over the years. NOT ONE!

I know Scientology, I was in it for over 5 years. They are not evil. Have some people been awful, sure, it has been that way in organizations for centuries. There is always some people who will use their position of power to create havoc. If I were to go to a Muslim country, which is BTW, not ethnic, as there are non-Arab Muslims, Christianity would be vilified as evil incarnate. It's viewpoint, pure and simple.

I choose not to hate.

zalinda

[icymist]

18. I choose not to hate either, but to warn:

Scientology.....
One becomes a Scientologist by (to varying degrees) substituting L. Ron Hubbard’s perception of reality for one’s own. Scientology is not swallowed whole; it is accepted incrementally via a carefully constructed series of agreements into which the individual is led, bolstered by profoundly invasive hypnotic techniques, peer pressure, hard-sell tactics and “whipped up gung-ho.” (1) This is a subtle, effective process that inhibits evaluative thinking and entraps people “through deceptive manipulation of our best qualities: loyalty, courage, desire to help.” (2)



Scientology appeals to people by offering them a grand game; a unique and comprehensive self-improvement system; a solution for almost every problem (many people come to Scientology when their lives are in crisis); and a welcoming group focused on major societal issues such as drug abuse, mental health, education, spirituality and morality. After joining the Church of Scientology, one meets with increasing demands for money, time and recruiting others. Those who resist these demands bolt, usually quickly. Those who remain go step-by-step into agreement with indoctrination, all the while believing that they are becoming more aware and self determined.



How and why people surrender their critical thinking skills and succumb to “re-education” has been the subject of study and controversy since the 1950s, when researchers began to encounter forms of coercive persuasion, or ideological re-molding, that were developed in China and the Soviet Union and were used on prisoners of war and on civilians in a variety of milieus. The methods of thought reform identified by such groundbreaking investigators as Dr. Robert J. Lifton (3) and the late Dr. Margaret Thaler Singer (4) have been shown to be present in virtually all high-demand religions presently operating in the United States and the Western world. (

http://clambake.org/archive/infopack/7.htm

ABOUT REFUNDS



The Church of Scientology charges its members “fixed donations” for its services. The current cost for services comprising the introductory courses through the “upper levels” is estimated at $300,000 - $500,000 in US dollars. Scientology recruiters called Registrars are responsible for enrolling members for services. They frequently use hard-sell techniques, and they pressure members to pay for services far in advance as a demonstration of commitment to Scientology. These advance payments often run to many thousands of dollars, with members pushed to drain savings and retirement accounts, max out credit cards and even sell their homes or businesses and hand over proceeds to the church.



The church has a policy providing for the refund of both money on account and money spent for services actually received, upon written request by a departing member. Despite this policy, many former members report having very great difficulty obtaining refunds; information about efforts (successful and unsuccessful) to get money refunded can be found online.



The following is the Church of Scientology's refund policy as stated to the US Internal Revenue Service as part of Form 1023 filing during negotiations for tax-exempt status. This information can be verified at the Exempt Organizations Reading Room in the IRS office in Washington, D.C. or at Church of Scientology organizations upon request.



BEGIN QUOTE --

“It has been a long-standing policy of the Church that if someone is dissatisfied with their Scientology services and asks to have their contributions returned within a three month period, these amounts will be returned. Likewise, if the person asks for return of contributions for which no services were received (i.e. an advance payment), there is no three month limitation period. Anyone newly enrolling in services at a Church of Scientology is informed of the policies and signs an agreement to abide by them. As a further condition of receiving a refund or repayment, the person understands that they may not again receive services from the Church.



“Within the Church, there are two separate terms: A "refund" refers to a return of contributions to a parishioner within 90 days of participating in religious services while a "repayment" refers to a return of a parishioner's advance payment before he or she has participated in religious services. For simplicity, the following discussion will use the term "refund" to describe both types of transactions, because both involve a return of parishioner contributions.



“The Church's refund policy is exceedingly fair. If someone isn't happy with Scientology -- which is a very small minority of people -- he simply has to make a proper request for his donations back, agree to forego further services and his donations will be returned. For the Church, in addition to the fact that this policy aligns with Scientology principles of exchange, it also serves the purpose of allowing our churches and the parishioners who are very happy with Scientology, to carry on without the unhappy few in their midst.”

-- END QUOTE.

http://clambake.org/archive/infopack/17.htm

[zalinda]

22. Yes, you may warn, but do you also warn people

about Christian churches. When did a Christian church ever give back any money. Has Baker given back any of the money? How about Robertson? And the list goes on. How many people have died because of "healings" in a Christian church? The Christian Scientists used to be looked upon as a cult, and now have moved into main stream. What about the Moonies? Have they given any of the money back. There are plenty of groups that when you join you give 10% of your earnings to them every year and some in which you give your life's work. But, none of these "religions" are as attacked as Scientology is. Even Christians doing relief work, who only give food to people who convert to Christianity is not as vilified. Why? They say it is to warn people, but I see them as neo-cons. Call out the hatred to things you don't understand, or against what you believe. Hold them up to standards that no other religion has to uphold.

The simple fact is, that if this woman's death had happened with the complicity of a Christian faith, the story would have been over within a couple of days.

zalinda

[hippywife]

23. The so-called Christians you mentioned

get their fair share of much deserved roasting around here. You just haven't been around here and looked around enough to have seen it, maybe. No one gets a pass around here.

[icymist]

24. Nobody here has brought up Christians, Zalinda, Only you...

Why is it that those who claim they are for the so-called religion of Scientology are so on the defensive? Can you show me anyone, other than your own claims, that can show Scientology is a religion and not a money scam? Come on... Why is Scientology and it's greatest 'secrets' only open to those who pay the price?

[pop goes the weasel]

25. bait and switch

That's what your reply is doing. You bring up other groups and make charges against them rather than addressing the specific charges against Scientology. Don't be surprised if no one takes your arguments seriously. Still, I will briefly address some of your assertions.

The Moonies--Funny you should bring them up, because a search of posts on DU will easily show you that the Unitarian "Church" is one of the most reviled organizations in the opinions of DUers. A search of DU will also show you that few DUers have any respect for those Christian "relief workers" who use assistance to bribe people into their particular brand of Christianity.

Christian Scientists are looked on as a cult and often come into conflict with authorities because of refusal to get timely medical care for their children. Members of faith-healer cults face the same legal jeopardy.

You mention Bakker--remember, he served prison time.

Scientology has to withstand the same scrutiny that every other belief has to. If the Operating Thetans can't stand the heat, they can leave the kitchen.

[zalinda]

34. I'm not trying to bait and switch

I'm just trying to say, that not all that you read may be true. And, even if some of it is true, that it was caused by individuals, not necessarily the church. And, I don't oppose dissent, what I find disheartening is the vilification, and hatred of an entire group, based on some peoples perceptions. What you will find from me is logic. If I read only accounts of priests molesting children, I could get the idea that that is what the Catholic church is all about. If I read only accounts of Mormons, having lots of children and marrying many wives, then I could think that that was all of what Mormonism is all about. In order to tell a story about something you have to have comparisons. And, that is all I was doing. It's the way news media is slanted, and we all know that. Scientologists could have flown a huge cargo plane of food to the victims of the tsunami, and we would never read about it. We only read something about them when things go badly or some Scientologist acts weirdly, ie: Tom Cruise.

I'm not trying to convince people that they should become Scientologists or even to like Scientology, but to realize that there is a bias out there. My experience in Scientology was positive, that's all I can offer. Were there weird people in it, yes. But, these weirdos didn't and don't make up the bulk of Scientology. And, whatever you believe of Hubbard, doesn't negate the fact that people join Scientology and stay in Scientology to do good in the world. Hubbard's main axiom is "Man is basically good". That's what all Scientologists work off of.

zalinda

[K-W]

38. Nobody is villifying the group. The people at the top are frauds.

It is blatently obvious.

The people in the church most most certainly do not deserve blaim, they are victims of a scam that programs them.

If, as you claim, you know little about scientology, then why are you so insistant we disbelieve the massive evidence that proves that this is a cult.

There are certainly many good people who are caught up in this scam, but it is a scam and that is well documented.

So why dont you do some actual research rather than insisting that we trust your minor experience over a mountain of evidence.

[zalinda]

41. If you read my other posts you would know

that I spent 5 years in a Scientology organization.

zalinda

[K-W]

44. Im glad you got out. EOM

[zalinda]

46. Why? I learned a lot while I was there

My experience was not bad, it did not scar me and I learned a lot about people and myself. I got more scarred while I was in Catholic school.

zalinda

[K-W]

52. Do some research on it, then you will know. EOM

[Endangered Specie]

55. Im somewhat curious how much money you gave to them?

or how far you got in the 'ranks'?

[zalinda]

58. I took some courses and had some auditing

I also worked on staff for 5 years. So, I do know what the motives are with these people. Some of my friends got up to the OT levels, and they didn't weird out, like it has been suggested. And, there is a reason that you pay for courses and auditing. Something that you work for is more valuable than something that is given for free. This is the exact reason that mechanics have to use their own tools when they go from shop to shop. Shop owners have found out that if they provide the tools, the mechanics don't take very good care of them. But, when the mechanic has to buy his own tools, he makes sure that every tool is cleaned and put back in his locked toolbox.

Again, I have no knowledge about clams or aliens, as far as I'm concerned this is what some person put out there and everyone else took it as truth and kept repeating it.

Most of what I learned is common sense, and when you start reading the books or course materials, you have a lot of aha moments. Check one of his books out of the library, and read it, or scan it at the library, I don't care, but get to the source. Most people on this planet don't need the upper levels, just a common sense approach to living their life, and that you can get for the most part, from his books. Is every thing in his books, his own idea, no, and he admits that. He looked at all different philosophies and kept those things that worked. He never asks you to have faith, he says try it, if it works for you, then use it. If it doesn't work for you, then don't use it.

Has the "leaders" in Scientology done some things that I disagree with, probably. Has people gotten into top leadership positions that shouldn't be there, most definitely. But, this is a young church, and we know that all churches have gone through growing pains where some who were in power, got power hungry. And, why is it a church? Because Scientology believes that we are all spirits (thetans)the spirit controls the body, the spirit controls the mind and the spirit is what will change mankind for the good.

zalinda

[Endangered Specie]

62. this explains a few things...

Well, to begin, those 'tools' you refer to, I believe they are an "E-meter"?, well, those are nothing but fancy looking skin resistance measuring machines, made to look important. But alas, since inspired by Ron Hubbard, there must be something divine in the circuitry.

Look around and you can get all the church 'materials' for free...
www.xenu.net
(by the way, if you cant see the link I just typed, let me know, the church convinces people to install 'software' that filters everything you read online).

and, I dont need shit from that dumbbelll Hubbard, i fear if I peer into one of his tripe books my IQ may sink.

[zalinda]

64. Thanks for calling me stupid

apparently you are much more intelligent than I am.

zalinda

[Endangered Specie]

54. Im not sure "got out" is a good choice of words...

Ive noticed that people who "had good experiences" with Scientology are remarkably similiar sounding to those who are "HAVING good experiences"


Thats what makes co$ dangerous, the people who leave are still affected :(

[damnthetorpedoes]

57. What good work?

Okay zalinda, so tell us what the fine works of the Scientologists are. I can at least point to many major Muslim, Jewish, and Christian charitable organizations that make a difference in the world for good through outreach and service. Don't just protest, tell us in detail what y'all do.

You wrote:

Scientologists could have flown a huge cargo plane of food to the victims of the tsunami, and we would never read about it.

But did they? The point is totally moot and another deceptive tactic (something I've noticed is typical of Scientologists' arguments, as with many cult members, who are often fooling themselves first) unless there is some positive contribution to the world we are all missing. Free personality tests? Is that it?

And yes all churches charge money. Why do you find it offensive that most churches do not demand money, only ask for it -- you act like it's gross that you have a choice to donate or not when the plate is passed! You'd rather it was an up front requirement, then there's also tithing churches. No church I've ever encountered of any other faith would require the same payment from every member for a particular religious benefit -- even tithing churches use a de facto sliding scale. And let's say you gave $50 a week to your church, which would be very generous by American standards. That's $2500 a year. You don't get to $300,000 -- not even a third of that -- in a lifetime of membership at $50 a week. And again, very few Americans give anything near that to their churches. Largely because very few could afford to.

I'm serious and not dismissive. Come back and tell us what the good works are, and why such an exorbitant and mandatory fee structure is good. I know little about Scientology, but you're not helping your cause by not giving counter-examples.

I can also name spiritual, good, seriously smart Christians, Muslims, and Jews who have used their religion as a basis for a major ethical contribution to the world. Name a Scientologist about whom the same could be said. Where's your Mother Teresa? It ain't Tom Cruise.

[KamaAina]

40. Unification is one of the most reviled, NOT Unitarian!

a search of posts on DU will easily show you that the Unitarian "Church" is one of the most reviled organizations in the opinions of DUers.

Ack! There are loads of Unitarian Universalist (UU) DUers out there! It is the Unification Church* of the Rev. Sun Myung Moon that is (rightly) reviled.

It's happened before: a UU from New Haven tells how she was standing outside the church on Whitney Ave. one Sunday morning after service. Someone she knew came by, and asked her, "What on Earth are you doing there? Isn't that some kind of a cult?" He, too, had confused Unification with Unitarian.

[Ayesha]

28. Actually...

There have been several notable cases of people dying due to "exorcisms" performed by extremist Christian sects, and they've been widely reported by the media. The Catholic priest abuses have been very much in the news as well.

Scientology isn't a misunderstood minority religion, it's a cult, pure and simple. And personally, I am disgusted by Tom Cruises condemnation of psychology and psychiatry. Psychiatric medications can be dangerous, and some are overprescribed, but they have also saved hundreds of thousands of lives. People with mental illnesses need treatment, not bullshit about aliens and people trapped in Lucite blocks buried in volcanos.

[icymist]

29. Ay Ayesha!

I feel the abouve is an example of someone dying due to an extreme religious sect that puts money above human life. Everytime I see Scientology being defended I feel I must present the 'other side' of what (Scientology) presents on the world.

[genieroze]

49. This sounds like most FunDuhMental religions. lol eom

[K-W]

26. Scientology is not upfront about anything.

The idea that charging thousands of dollars for religious services is somehow better than asking for donations is ludacris.

Nothing I stated is opinion. You can go look it up. L. Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer, who turned to writing self-help books based, not suprisingly, on pseudo-science. He did have tax problems. He did then create a church and write a host of religious documents to go along with his self help ideas to create a religion.

Scientology is a scam, like many before and after it developed to pray on niave and vulnerable people and take advantage of the vagueries of religion.

And you seem to be forgetting that Christianity, Islam, Judiasm and a host of other religions have belief systems developed thousands of years ago and passed along as tradition in families. They werent written by a science fiction writer a few decades ago.

Scientology is not just a viewpoint, that is rediculous.

Scientology is a religion invented by a science fiction writer turned guru a few decades ago based on a highly secretive and very science fiction derived dogma that involves a process psychological conditioning, while at the same time charging highly for all services and defending thier dogma as a "trade secrets"

You are employing cheap rhetorical twists to try and hide the obvious truth about Scientology. You cant just write the truth off as hate or try to generalize scientology in with all other religions so we dont look at the facts of scientology.

[Elidor]

19. Very well-said, K-W

I wish I could always be so lucid on the subject.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

15. Lisa McPherson was...

having a psychotic break when she was picked up and brought back to the Clearwater facility.

She needed serious medical and psychiatric care, not Scientology mumbo-junbo. Her death was a direct result of the neglect of the Scientologists taking care of her.

They are an extremeist cult and should be treated as such.

[icymist]

20. Ture story of L. Ron Hubbard.

http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm
http://clambake.org/archive/infopack/4.htm


In contrast to L. Ron Hubbards version:
http://www.lronhubbard.org/

[Endangered Specie]

37. Kinda like the real biography vs the state approved version

of someone like Kim Jong Il, or Josef Stalin... stark contrast eh.

as I understood it, both NKorea leaders have 200+ IQs, grandmaster chess ratings, when they were born the earth shook etc etc...

[Andromeda]

30. There is or was a mystery about what ...

happened to cult guru L. Ron Hubbard and I don't believe it was ever revealed when or how he died---assuming he is dead, of course. I don't know how old he would be if he was alive but it seems unlikely that he would be because nobody has seen him for years.

This is just one of the secrets that Scientologists kept and I'm wondering if anybody has a clue as to what happened to Hubbard.

Maybe he just got in a spaceship and left to join his ancestors in outer space.

[K-W]

32. They claim he has left his body and moved to a new phase of existance

to continue his work saving humanity.

I dont know how he died, but hes dead.

[Andromeda]

33. What did they do with his body?

Maybe it's been recycled in Tom Cruise.

[zalinda]

36. He died, and was buried at sea

from what I've heard. I think I read about it in the LA Times, when he died. I don't remember what he died from. But, I wouldn't doubt if it was from some sort of organ failure. He was a hard working, hard drinking, chain smoking man, which was the scuttlebutt when I was in the organization.

And yes, Scientologists believe in reincarnation.

zalinda

[Endangered Specie]

35. Good, maybe they should consider a trip to the psychiatrist for him...

Im sure he could use some. :evilgrin:


I would never let a Scientologist operate on me, or give me medical opinion, or anything for that matter.

[puddycat]

43. you denigrate scientology yet think psychiatry is Okay? oh, please!

At least scientology pretends to be a religion, whereas psychiatry pretends to be a science, and hurts people in the process. I'm sure the numbers of people that scientology has hurt is way way less than the numbers of people victimized by the horrors of psychiatry.

Always remember, psychiatry is not a science. Its practioners just a few short years ago officially thought being gay was a mental illness. Its practioners once thought being black meant that you were inferior and more prone to criminal behavior. Its practioners thought -- and still think -- that women are more prone to mental illness, and those members are quick to victimize women, because they..well, because they can.

One thing is for sure, Tom Cruise may be a little strange, but he's right about psychiatry.

[livinginphotographs]

50. Spoken like someone who has never had to deal

with psychological issues. :eyes:

[Endangered Specie]

51. Oh brother...

First of all, Im not trying to potray psychiatry in too bright a light, I for one, often refer to it and all other social sciences as being "soft science".

In any event, physicists used to think ether was real, biologists subscribed to spontaneous generation, and astronomers once bought that the earth was the center of the universe. The nature, if you will, of science is to explore/learn about the natural world, and that often means revisions to revolutions in are thinking. I for one have not had all good experiences with psychiatrists, I dont intend to condemn the entire field for it, more just critisize it and remain skeptical about it (and everything in life really).

Psychiatry is applied psychology much like engineering is applied science, it is far from perfect (and IMHO, Engineering is better ;)), and Tom Cruise is more than just a little strange he is an idiot and a fool, whatever he is on, it is either too much or not enough.

I submit that the real enemy is the drug companies, and have done serious damage to all fields of medicine (much like some firms try to push engineers to overlook things in the name of cost).

And, before you try and uplift Scientology, I suggest you give it a good try, though be prepared to take out a second mortgage. Quoting numbers of people hurt by scientology vs psychiatry is a flawed aregument since you are not considering the proportion of people who have experienced the two, Scientology hurts virtually everyone (whether they know it or not) who delves into it, whereas psychiatry, may have hurt more people in absolute figures, proportionally has a far better record and has actually helped more people too.

[puddycat]

59. I certainly agree about the drug companies.

And nothing in my post was meant to "uplift" scientology.

[K-W]

53. Scientology is a cult, psychiatry is a science you know nothing about.

The fact that people used to be more ignorant than they are today is true in all sciences and doesnt discredit any of them.

Tom Cruise isnt right and nobody who had even the faintest relationship with the truth would claim he is.

[Endangered Specie]

56. Hey, dont you know that Tom Cruise is an ace fighter pilot...

just like W! :sarcasm:

[puddycat]

60. I understand your bigotry against Scientology. But why defend Psychiatry?

I just don't understand the pro-bias for psychiatry amongst many here at DU--Psychiatry is a pseudo-science and nothing more. It hurts people more than help. It has branded whole generations of Americans, and the numbers are increasing. Children branded with DSM labels and forced to take ritalin when their only crime is that they were KIDS.

Its a horror show. Its evil. The cult of psychiatry is sick

[warrens]

45. It's the other way around, she was covering up for the Scientologists

Somebody needs a murder charge for this.

[Ian David]

47. See related thread

Horrible Truths for Scientologists: Body Thetans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=247&topic_id=1385&mesg_id=1480

[rayofreason]

48. L. Ron Hubbard won the bet...

...with Robert Heinlien.

He did create a religion.

Amazing what people will swallow to fill the empty space, the "God-shaped hole" in the West that Sartre talked about.

[puddycat]

63. he won the bet--but its still a religion, and most are cults anyway!

I think of Jesus, and his inspirations words on the Mount and how he would probably be appalled at the Christian religion. He probably never intended to make a new religion and he certainly would not approve of all the wars, etc. made in his name. I have nothing personal against "cults", though, many people would be lost without the social interaction found in them--I just object to some cults pointing fingers at other cults while pretending not to be a cult.

[Bo]

61. More wacko religious murderers