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im4 Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 10:06 AM
Original message
UN rules Canada should ban spanking...
Post:

THE NEW WORLD DISORDER
U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking
Committee on the Rights of the Child issues decision in Geneva


Posted: October 9, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

A United Nations committee has ruled Canada should bar parents from spanking their children.

As a signatory of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, Canada is obligated to make periodic appearances before the U.N.'s Committee on Rights of the Child, which said the country should "adopt legislation to remove the existing authorization of the use of 'reasonable force' in disciplining children," the National Post reported.

The United States and Somalia are the only countries that have not signed the convention, which routinely tells members appearing before its committee to pass laws banning spanking.

"This ruling is another example of the U.N. infringing on our own national concerns," said John-Henry Westen, spokesman for LifeSiteNews.com, an online monitor of family values, according to the National Post.

"When a child is young and cannot understand, a tap on the hand is essential for training," he said. "We have a wood-burning stove that gets very hot. It's ridiculous that I can't save my child from burning himself by tapping his hand away from it."

However, a member of the committee responsible for communicating with Canada argued, if the child "puts his hand on a hot oven, he will be burnt and he will not do it again."

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35000


Is spanking abuse? When does spanking become abuse? Why would any country sign a document that tells them what laws they are allowed to have. Although, the US is a member of the UN, I have no influence there. I do have influence in the US by being a registered voter. Not alot mind you but some, and the freedom to discuss issues that are important to me. Does the UN care what I think? Don't think so. I think that they have their own agendas. I got sooooo many spankings growing up. And I can honestly say I deserved more. Yeah, kids are smart. I got out of alot of spankings being smart. I was smart enough to know what transgressions would result in spankings. And trifeling enough to attempt things anyway. Have you seen how kids behave today? Parents are afraid or don't care enough to discipline their kids. I never doubted my parents love even when I got spanked. How much pain and suffering did they save me from by disciplining me when I needed it?

However, I believe that the UN is trying to obtain too much power. You know the old saying absolute power corrupts absolutely. How can the UN usurp the Canadian government or the US for that matter? I believe in the sovereignty of a nation. Apparently the UN doesn't. I mean look at the human rights committee. The worst offenders are in it! There is something majorly wrong in this situation.
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La_Serpiente Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well....
I think every country has their right to self-determination. But each country should at least show some deference to the internatinal organization. Desafortunadamente, the United States doesn't have any respect for it, regardless of all the positive things it contributes.

However, what the hell is the UN doing trying to ban spanking? SPANKING? GEEZ...There's bigger things to fry out there. No wonder the UN doesn't intervene in matters of genocide like Cambodia during the 1980s and 1990s: they are off banning spanking.

Frankly, I don't believe in excessive punishment for a child. That just fucks him/her up. However, there does need to be some discrestion for a little physical punishment.
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alexwcovington Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yeah... RIGHT... the National Post
Canada's New York Post
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glarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. The National Post is a J-O-K-E!!! n/t
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glarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. I get the impression you are anit-United Nations & are using this as an
example to denigrate it....hmmmmm?
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im4 Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I'm concerned about any organization
that tries to tell nations how to govern themselves, but seems to do it inequally. Why are some nations villianized for somethings while nothing is said about nations that do far worse? But there are shades of grey here that go beyond the UN itself. Should a parent be allowed to spank a child? Where does spanking end as discipline and begin as abuse? Is spanking a legitimate form of discipline? Is there a right way and wrong way to spank a child? Is it correction or oppression? Who decides? And who has final say in the matter?

Techinically it's several issues. The role of the UN in the world. Sovereignty of nations. Parental rights. Childrens rights. Would you and have you ever spanked your child? Would you admit it if you did? And after they say you can't spank your child, does it go further? What you can teach or can't teach your child? For example, what if Santa became deemed harmful so Christmas was banned? (An old man trying to get as many innocent children on his lap as possible, capable of breaking into anyone's house in the world) Ignoring the religiousness of this, would you stop celebrating Christmas because the UN deemed it harmful? Or should you be able to decide whether or not to let your child believe in Santa? Who decides? When is it ok for an outside entity to intervene? When is it not? Who is qualified to decide?

Instead of talking relgious beliefs or even homosexuality vs. heterosexuality, what about this, lets speak hypthetically: can you teach your children that the Redskins are better than the Cowboys or vice versa? Is it child abuse to train a child to like the Redskins or Cowboys because you believe that one team is better than the other? Is it hate speech to say infront of your child that the Redskins or Cowboys suck?

Where does outside interference begin and end? That is my concern with the UN and the US and state and local governments.



Let the debate begin...
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glarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I think I'll take an aspirin...you're nonsense is giving me a head ache!
The United Nations is a place where countries can AT LEAST TALK THINGS OVER and sometimes avoid problems because of this...That's worth supporting in my mind!
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im4 Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. talking things over is a good thing
Isn't that what we're doing here? Just because we disagree on points doesn't mean we can't get along in a civil manner. But how can the UN tell Canada make spanking illegal? That would be up to the Canadians, not the UN. It seems the UN has become a paper tiger. Strutting around trying to influence, but no real power. And should it really have any? It should be able to apply pressure. It should be able to be a place where countries can get together and work out problems. But it should not be the beginning and end of world government. Sadam never listened to the UN, and the Iraquis never had any input into their government. But Canadians do have input. They have the right to decide for themselves.
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glarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I'm a Canadian and I have not heard anyone up here worrying about
Edited on Thu Oct-09-03 02:41 PM by glarius
orders from the U.N. regarding spanking our children....You seem to be making a mountain out of a mole hill...This has NOT been a big item up here...The only mention I could find about it was in the Vancouver Sun....Never even made TV so far as I know...Some things you just let slide...IMO

edit---here's the Vancouver Sun article...all I could find on this
http://www.canada.com/search/story.aspx?id=85d86b45-bbcd-4345-961d-5db5083fe5bf
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soleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
5. A man, a wood burning stove, and a child
And the only way this guy can think to keep the child from the stove is to resort to violence. Sad.
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. If a child is too small to understand that hot stoves are dangerous...
isn't it neglectful to allow him access to a hot stove?

A firm but loving grasp of their hands, a direct look into their eyes, and the words "No no! danger!" worked just fine for my kids.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
6. The U.S. never signed on? That's no surprise!
Then again, we are the only nation in the industrial, civilized World that still uses the death penalty. Even South Africa abolished the death penalty.

I am not against firm discipline for a child but spanking should not be used. I think better communication is much better than beating the crap out of a kid. Spanking is a subtle form of child abuse IMHO.


I await the flaming for my comments.

John
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Based on this article
You can understand why the U.S. never signed on.
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Tommy_Douglas Donating Member (242 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. Yes but...
Does the U.S. sign on to anything that isn't their idea?

I'm sure they do I don't need proof of it, but it seems like the U.N. tries to do a lot of good things like deal with Weapons proliferation and landmines and such and the United States is always the one putting the nix on.
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qb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
7. The assault argument is compelling.
You can go to jail for striking an adult, but not a child.
Also, corporal punishment is deemed "cruel and unusual" when applied to convicted criminals, but not to children.
Confinement is the approved punishment for adults, and should be for children as well. Holding a young child motionless on your lap for 3 minutes immediately after he/she does something wrong is an amazing deterrent.
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im4 Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Isn't holding a child
restricting their right to free movement. You can't restrain an adult without due process except under extenuating circumstances. And even that has to be limited. If children had the same rights, why don't we let them vote, smoke, drink, and drive cars? Because they haven't gleaned a cerain amount of maturity. Different children need different types of motivation. Time out was fun for me. I had a great imagination. I exasperated my teachers to no end. And my parents for that matter. I was very independent, talkative, opinionated, nonconformist... (still am). To my nephew, time out was torture. He could't stand not being in the middle of things. It didn't bother me in the least. But spanking didn't hurt my spirit. It didn't squelch my spirit. It taught me that some things have painful consequences even though I may not have stopped to think about what those things were. It taught me to think things through first then act. Did I always choose correctly. Nope. I'd rather have a slapped hand than a burnt one or a sore bottom instead of a broken leg or dead. The worst spanking my sister got was when she ran out into the road. She could have been killed. I got too many to remember which one was worse. Never once did I feel like my parents didn't love me. I'm not damaged (although I'm sure some of you are thinking otherwise). Is spanking abuse? No. Is spanking the the only way to discipline? No. Spanking should be reserved for weighty issues. No leaving shoes in the middle of the floor. If you don't feel comfortable spanking don't. If you feel it is a legitimate form of discipline and you can do it correctly, do. Spanking is not running around the house hitting your child every time you get a chance. It's a measured response to a specific transgression. Spanking can be done in a nondamaging manner.
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qb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. The smoking/drinking/driving analogy is a little much.
I was referring to using violence as a deterrent. I still maintain that those who insist on the necessity of spanking are lacking in either imagination or the willingness to read up on effective non-violent discipline techniques.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. children do "have the same rights"
"If children had the same rights, why don't we let them vote, smoke, drink, and drive cars? Because they haven't gleaned a cerain amount of maturity."

That is exactly why we do not let them do those things -- because they do not have the maturity to exercise their rights in their own best interests. NOT because they do not have rights.

And forgive me, but your anecdotes are boring me. You are boring me. I can't figure out why you're still here.

There are legal principles that would apply in instances of minor assaults -- the same ones that apply to instances of minor assaults between adults. Things like de minimis non curat lex -- the law does not concern itself with trivial matters. I'm not going to be charged with assault if I grab your arm to stop you from walking away, and if corporal punishment were prohibited a parent would not be charged with assault for smacking a child's hand away from a hot stove. Grow up, folks.

The people seeking to strike down section 43 of the Criminal Code are not concerned about kids getting their hands smacked away from hot stoves. They are concerned about people who assault children in ways that they are not permitted to assault adults.

The issue here is not impulsive, non-injurious, contemporaneous responses to immediate problems. It is the calculated, deliberate use of force as "correction". The issue is in fact exactly the conduct you describe:

"It's a measured response to a specific transgression."

Permitting that "response" is a violation of the right to security of the person, because there is no justification for allowing an individual to assault another in this way.

Never mind the "it didn't hurt me" crap. Let's see the justification for permitting adults to assault children. That's how things work in this world, the one where we operate according to the rule of law; and that world just does not end when you cross the threshold into your home.

"Spanking can be done in a nondamaging manner."

So can me smacking you across the face. I guess that means I should be permitted to come and do it?

Funny. I don't think that's how you'd say things work in that instance.

.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
14. The notion of rights for women and children is new and controversial

Not too many centuries ago, it was taken for granted almost universally that a man's wife and children were his property, to do with as he pleased.

Today, some cultures have made some changes toward the idea that women are standalone, independent human beings, and that children, even infants, have certain rights that may not be abrogated even by their parents or guardians.

Not all cultures have changed to the same degree, or in the same way or ways, and human beings still have a long way to go in the area of recognition of universal human rights.

Of one thing we can be certain: The first hominids who stretched hesitantly up to balance and take the first stumbling steps on two legs did not have an easy time of it either.
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republicansareevil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
15. This is so misleading...
I remember this similar story about Britain:
http://www.nospank.net/n-j57.htm

"British Told to End Spanking Law
U.N. Panel Tells Britain to Repeal 142-Year-Old Law
By Jonathan Fowler
The Associated Press, October 4, 2002

GENEVA (Oct. 4) - Britain should repeal a 142-year-old law giving parents the right to spank their children because it violates an international treaty, a United Nations committee said Friday.
The U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child, which oversees a 1989 accord protecting youngsters, said it welcomed British legislation abolishing corporal punishment in schools.

But it also called for the repeal of an 1860 law that allows parents to use ''reasonable chastisement'' to punish their children.

...

Countries that have ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child are supposed to submit regular reports to the committee showing what they are doing to implement the treaty. The committee, made up of 10 independent experts, commented after considering Britain's report, the second the country has submitted since 1995.

...

Former President Clinton's administration signed the convention but never submitted it for Senate ratification because a number of groups argued it infringed on the rights of parents.

The United States is one of only two countries - the other is Somalia - that has not ratified the treaty."


Note that key phrase "Countries that have ratified the Convention ...". The UN does not have the power to simply force countries to change their laws, as your worthless "news" source seems to suggest. These are coutries that have signed a treaty agreeing to certain matters regarding the rights of children. A country can choose not to sign the treaty, just as the U.S. and Somalia have chosen. Even after a country signs the treaty, I don't know how much the UN can or would do to enforce it. The UN is a way for countries to talk and come to agreements, not a ruling power that subjugates the countries that belong to it. Sheesh!

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Goldust Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
16. What if I'm paying good money to be spanked?
n/t
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
17. trivial treatment of serious issue

... with a pretty bloody obvious agenda.

I think others have made it plain: the UN does not have the authority or power to "usurp the Canadian government". You might try knowing what you're talking about before you speak, unless what you're trying to do is not actually convey information or engage in genuine, sincere discourse.

Canada has ratified -- voluntarily -- the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

The US -- and Somalia -- have not ratified it. Somalia can't, having nothing that might be called a government. The US signed it, but did not ratify it. Real info, for anyone interested: http://www.unicef.org/crc/faq.htm

The issue of the legality of physical assaults on children has been in the Canadian justice system for a while.
The Criminal Code provision reads:

43. Every schoolteacher, parent or person standing in the place of a parent is justified in using force by way of correction toward a pupil or child, as the case may be, who is under his care, if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances.


The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms provides:

7. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.


Here is the 2002 Ontario Court of Appeal decision rejecting the constitutional challenge:
http://www.ontariocourts.on.ca/decisions/2002/january/canadianC34749.htm


The website of the organization that initiated the legal challenge is: http://www.repeal43.org/


I invite you to learn what you're talking about; should you actually have something to say about the issues, once you know what they are, and you choose to address them sincerely, spare us the "sooooo"s and "majorly"s and wide-eyed questions. You ain't foolin' nobody.

.
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Paschall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. WorldNetDaily? What a rag! From AmnestyInternational, a little truth
Edited on Fri Oct-10-03 12:49 AM by Paschall
(ON EDIT: This is in reply to origial post. Hey, im4, try using some serious sources. WorldNetDaily is shite.)

Q: What is the the Convention on the Rights of the Child?

A: The Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) is an internationally recognized agreement between nations which establishes a comprehensive set of goals for individual nations to achieve on behalf of their children. In general, the Convention calls for:

- freedom from violence, abuse, hazardous employment, exploitation, abduction or sale;
- adequate nutrition;
- free compulsory primary education;
- adequate health care;
- equal treatment regardless of gender, race, or cultural background;
- the right to express opinions and freedom of though in matters affecting them;
- safe exposure/access to leisure, play, culture, and art.

Recognizing the special vulnerability of children, all of these goals are expressed with respect to a child's age and evolving capacities - the child's best interests are always the paramount concern. The Convention repeatedly emphasizes the primacy and importance of the role, authority and responsibility of parents and family; it is neutral on abortion; and is consistent with the principles contained in the Bill of Rights.


Q: What is the Convention's status in the United States and globally?

A: As of February 24, 1997, 190 countries have ratified the Convention.

The most recent nations to become States Parties to the Convention are Oman, the United Arab Emirates, and Switzerland. The Cook Islands -- which recently ratified the Convention on the national level -- is projected to formally ratify the treaty and submit its instrument of ratification within the next couple of months. The remaining two countries which have not ratified the Convention are Somalia and the United States. Markedly, Somalia currently does not have the governmental capacity to ratify an international treaty at this time.

On February 16, 1995, the United States signed the Convention indicating the nation's intent to consider ratification. The next step is for the President and his advisors to draft a Statement of Reservations, Understandings and Declarations which will be presented with the Convention to the Senate for its "advice and consent." Once Senate consideration is completed in the affirmative, the President will ratify the Convention. As of April 1, 1997, the Convention has not been presented to the Senate.


Q: Why hasn't the United States ratified the Convention: What is holding it up?

A: International treaties undergo extensive examination and scrutiny before they are ratified in the United States. Unfortunately, it can take several years for a treaty to be ratified after it is signed. For example, the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide took more than 30 years to be ratified by the United States, and the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, which was signed by the United States 17 years ago, still has not been ratified. Signed by the U.S. just over two years ago, the Convention on the Rights of the Child is relatively early in this process.

Unlike many nations which view implementation of a treaty as a gradual or progressive process, the United States attempts to ensure that all federal and/or state laws meet the standards of the treaty and, if necessary, enact new legislation before giving its consent. This is because the United States takes the position that the text of a human rights treaty itself does not directly become part of U.S. law. This process can take years.

Two "environmental" factors have created obstacles to moving the CRC ahead expeditiously. Due to widespread misconceptions about the Convention's intent and provisions, and a lack of public understanding about how this type of agreement is implemented by our government, the Convention has encountered a notable level of opposition within the Senate and in the public. Until a more favorable political environment can be achieved and greater public support can be attained, further movement on ratification will be difficult.


Q: What are the most common claims made about the Convention by its opposition?

A: Conservative religious organizations including the Christian Coalition, Concerned Women for America, Eagle Forum, Family Research Council, Focus on the Family, the John Birch Society, the National Center for Home Education, and the Rutherford Institute have spearheaded the efforts in opposition to the Convention. These organizations have made a significant effort to portray the Convention as a threat. The majority of the oppositions claims stem from unfounded concerns related to national sovereignty, states' rights, and the parent-child relationship. The most common concerns voiced by the opposition include:

- the Convention usurps national and state sovereignty
- the Convention undermines parental authority
- the Convention would allow and encourage children to sue parents, join gangs, have abortions,
- the United Nations would dictate how we raise and teach our children

These claims and perceptions are a result of misconceptions, erroneous information, and a lack of understanding about how international human rights treaties are implemented in the United States. Notably, in many cases, the Convention's opponents criticize provisions which were added by the Reagan and Bush Administrations during the drafting process in an effort to reflect the rights American children have under the U.S. Constitution.

These public efforts are reinforced by a number of Senators which oppose ratification of the Convention. Opposition in the Senate is led by Senator Jesse Helms (R-NC). Citing his opinion that "the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child is incompatible with God-given right and responsibility of parents to raise their children," and that "the Convention has the potential to severely restrict States and the Federal Government in their efforts to protect children and to enhance family life," Senator Helms, along with 26 cosponsors, introduced a Senate Resolution in June 1995 which urged the President to not transmit the Convention to the Foreign Relations Committee (which Helms Chairs) for review. It must be noted, however, that since 1990, five resolutions have also been introduced in Congress which support U.S. ratification of the Convention.


Q: Does the Convention threaten our national sovereignty? Will the United Nations control our laws and children?

A: No.

The Convention contains no controlling language or mandates. Moreover, under the supremacy clause of our Constitution, no treaty can "override" our Constitution. The United States has historically regarded treaties such as this Convention to be non-self-executing, which means the Convention can only be implemented through domestic legislation enacted by Congress or state legislatures, in a manner and time-frame determined by our own legislative process. Moreover, the United States can reject or attach clarifying language to any specific provision of the Convention. Therefore, neither the United Nations nor the Committee on the Rights of the Child would have dominion, power, or enforcement authority over the United States or its citizens. Ultimately, the Convention obligates the Federal Government to make sure that the provisions of the treaty are fulfilled.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/children/crn_faq.html (from UNICEF)
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goddess40 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
19. Spanking is abuse
and this man is an idiot.
snip
"This ruling is another example of the U.N. infringing on our own national concerns," said John-Henry Westen, spokesman for LifeSiteNews.com, an online monitor of family values, according to the National Post.

"When a child is young and cannot understand, a tap on the hand is essential for training," he said. "We have a wood-burning stove that gets very hot. It's ridiculous that I can't save my child from burning himself by tapping his hand away from it."
snip

If a child can't understand what is being told to them they can't figure out why someone would hit them.
Does this guys boss get to smack him when he makes a mistake? I don't think so.
If you advocate spanking than your boss and spouse should get to whack you when you are out of line.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. and LifeSiteNews.com

... is NOT "an on-line monitor of family values", the National Post notwithstanding. It is the mouthpiece of the anti-choice, anti-GBLT, anti-rights and freedoms right wing. Which is, of course, though nasty and noisy, a pretty negligible group of people in Canada.

Of course, the National Post isn't a newspaper, either. It's the mouthpiece of ... oh, I already said that.

.
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im4 Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
22. Quick Poll...
How many people posting on this have been spanked (spanked not beaten) by their parents?

How many of you that were feel that you were an abused child because of spanking or a smacked hand?

Given the chance would you sue you parents now or think they were unfit?

Do you feel your parents did the best they could in raising you?

Were you loved as a child?

How many of you are able to laugh about the trip behind the woodshed as well as the reason for the trip?

Are you in someway damaged because of spanking?

If your parents were so wrong, how do you think you turned out ok?

Did you turn out ok?
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goddess40 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. we turn out ok in spite of spanking not because of it
My mother has apologised and my father is dead.

Was I abused -yes but I know my mother did the best she could. She didn't have the information that we now have about spanking. She rarely spanked and it was always out of frustration.

My father is another story, he had no clue on how to handle children. He used fear to control us and in a classic example of you reap what you sew - I don't miss him in the least and I am actually a little relieved that I don't have to deal with him anymore.

Most people have problems believing that their parents could have made a mistake but they are human and they do make mistakes.
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im4 Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. My parents weren't perfect
and neither am I. Have you sat in Social Sevices or watched parents with children in the store? What happened to respect?

What you discribed is not spanking. I knew everytime that I got spanked it was in response to willful disobedience. Knowing better and doing it anyway. There was no intimidation involved in correcting me. Before during and after a spanking, I never feared my parents. Sometimes I feared getting caught doing something, but not fearing them. Everytime, I got a spanking, after the situation had calmed, I was hugged and told how much I was loved. Spanking wasn't used for every transgression, just the ones my parents deemed of the utmost importance. (being an independent, nonconformist, stubborn child did not contribute to infrequent spankings and I came up with spankings in school...got my share of those too...did I mention I was stubborn nonconformist?)
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goddess40 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. You don't get respect by hitting someone
Edited on Fri Oct-10-03 01:24 PM by goddess40
and you don't deserve it if you do.

What a mixed message. To hit someone and than hug them and tell them that you love them. That is was wife beaters do.

Kids that are hit are often well behaved around their parents but let them get out of their parents sight and look out. These kids all to often rely on external controls. The goal of parenting is for the kids to use internal controls, hitting doesn't instill a conscience it only makes kids plan how not to get caught.

edit:

Might does not make right. If I'm wrong than I guess most of us are wrong on our stance about the war in Iraq. Hitting someone that can not defend themselves against you is WRONG.
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Jeff in Cincinnati Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
23. Canada Responds to UN...
We'll stop spanking kids if the United States will stop killing them.
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
28. We hit our children, then tell them they must never hit.
The hypocrisy is mind-boggling.

How can we hope to achieve world peace if we don't practice non-violence in our own homes?
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
29. UN: Stay Out of My Bedroom!
:spank:
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