"Buy American" Legislation Draws Fire (ZDNet) ...

[SKKY]

U.S.-international trade, a tech industry group is blasting "Buy American" legislation passed by the House of Representatives this week.

On Friday, the Information Technology Association of America called the measure bad security policy and bad economic policy. The legislation, an amendment to the Homeland Security Authorization Act, would force the Department of Homeland Security to buy products mostly made in America.

The legislation was authored by Rep. Don Manzullo, an Illinois Republican, and passed by the House on Wednesday. It would require more than 50 percent of the components in any end product procured by the department to be mined, produced or manufactured inside the United States.

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9597_22-5715486.html?tag=zdfd.newsfeed

[markus]

1. This is actually a teriffic idea

Any software used by the government or with health or safety implications should be done in the U.S., or require a full source code review in the U.S. by U.S. citizens leading to some sort of certification.

[losdiablosgato]

2. I love this idea.

[Lerkfish]

5. oddly, I don't perceive a downside either...for once

I agree with a republican.

[Tesha]

8. 'Hope you like working with stone knives and bearskins...

> Oddly, I don't perceive a downside either

'Hope you like working with stone knives and bearskins, 'cause you
certainly won't be working with cutting-edge semiconductors, computers,
and other electronics. Even when they're made by an "American" company,
it's a very good bet that more than 50% of the value-added was added
off-shore (and probably in the Far East).

Tesha

[Lerkfish]

11. valid point....but I think your hyperbole is unnecessary.

I don't think the choice is either foreign made goods and software or stone knives.

[Tesha]

31. Go try to buy a computer that is made in the US.

> valid point....but I think your hyperbole is unnecessary.

Go try to buy a computer that is made entirely in the US. Log back on
when you've succeeded at this task.

We won't be hearing from you for a long, long time (and quite possibly
forever).

Tesha

[Lerkfish]

32. I said your point was valid...no need for the vitriol

reading comprehension is a lost art.

[Tesha]

33. I'm trying to make graphic for you...

I'm trying to make graphic for you why my statement wasn't hyperbole;
my statement contains no vitriol.

Tesha

[Lerkfish]

34. apologies: when you said "stone knives" I read that as hyperbole...

When you suggested I go away and don't come back, I read that as vitriol.

my apologies for misreading you.

Incidentally, Apple computers would be able to be manufactured in the US completely, I believe. If I am wrong, I apologize.

[Tesha]

46. Apples and Oranges...

> Incidentally, Apple computers would be able to be manufactured in the
> US completely, I believe. If I am wrong, I apologize.

While it's true that the CPU chips used in Apple Macintosh computers
are (currently) made in the US (At IBM in Fishkill, NY, IIRC), there's
a lot more in a computer than the CPU. For example, the RAM memory
in any vendor's computers now comes from the far east (in particular,
Japan and Korea) or wherever Infineon makes chips (they're based in
Germany but I have no idea where their fabs are).

And most of the machines (including Apple's) are assembled in China.

Tesha

[markus]

28. True up to a point, but I don't work (directly) with hardware

I test high-level software.

If you want to get down to the firmware-microcode level, yes that's tricky.

I also think it's terribly dangerous that our entire economy is based on the production of ICs developed and built overseas, which could be cut off at some point.

With just in time inventory, how long could our economy keep running if, say, war in the Taiwan straights cut off the delivery of Asian-sourced ICs (from the chipset/board up to finish systems).

When would GM and Ford, for example, run out of "black box" parts, shutting down US auto produciton, for example

Finally, why wouldn't we be able to require US certification of the software contents of these ICs? You likely can't fly a Boeing aircraft in Country X without some local certificatoin the thing is fit to fly.

I'm not suggesting we have to certify every microware oven controller system. I'm suggesting 1) government (read mostly military)and 2) life and safety applications.

If it comes down to it, I guess I can learn Hindi and start sleeping on Indian Standard Time, but I'm not going down without a fight.

[pokercat999]

29. What yoiu say may be a fact today, however

we could change that and in a very short time!

[Tesha]

30. A semi fab now costs several billions of dollars...

> we could change that and in a very short time!

A semi fab ("chip manufacturing plant") now costs several billions of
dollars and takes several years to construct and bring up. This ugly
fact of life (that essentially ALL of our advanced electronics
comes from offshore) isn't going to be changed soon, even if we had the
will to change it (and we clearly don't).

For now and in the foreseeable future, chips come from abroad, especially
China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, and Japan.

Tesha

[TheWraith]

35. Several billion dollars is a rounding error to the U.S. government.

If they were smart, they'd have a huge, sparkling new electronics plant--or more than one--sitting somewhere in New Mexico or Rhode Island or somewhere, ready to start cranking out critical technology, both military and civilian, in the event of a war in Asia. If they were smart.

[Tesha]

45. Unfortunately, that's the price *PER FAB*

The worldwide semiconductor industry contains more than a few of these
multi-billion dollar factories.

Tesha

[youspeakmylanguage]

37. www.unionbuiltpc.com

http://www.unionbuiltpc.com/

I'm sure the parts aren't all made in the USA, but the assembly and support are provided by 100% American union labor.

This is a company that combines leading-edge technology and innovation with real American sweat and know-how. I have a hand-me-down computer so I haven't purchased one of their PC's yet, but I plan to in the future.

It might not be feasible for the feds to purchase all of their computer equipment from similarly-progressive companies, but at the very least we, as consumers, can buy equipment from companies that support union labor. To me this is much more civic- and liberally-minded than falling for the Apple or Dell marketing hype.

[hootinholler]

44. On Software...

It should also require the source to be held in escrow.

-Hoot

[MAlibdem]

3. Horrible Idea

We should be using the best products in the world to defend ourselves - no matter where they come from. We should hope that the best products are coming from the US, but we shouldn't compromise our homeland security for the sake of a petty protectionist economic policy designed simply to win votes and/or campaign contributions.

[BadGimp]

6. nonsense

The whole "defend ourselves" rhetoric is a giant god dammed scam.

And since it is a scam, what the f^@k does it matter what buy. We may as well help ourselfves to soe of that cash.

[cascadiance]

10. But by forcing the issue, hopefully we force companies to make

the best products here, instead of outsourcing them other places. The key to a decent defense is to be able to continue to rely on our own industry to provide what we need to defend ourselves. The more we become dependent on others to provide the expertise for providing us with what we need, the sooner we can suddenly be stripped of that defense, if the countries providing that labor/products, etc. nationalize their industry or use other means to prevent us from using that technology. Whether or not the products are "better" functionality-wise, the limitation of others being able to yank our resources at any time is what makes relying on them worse.

There should be no reason why we shouldn't be able to produce the superior products ourselves here. We've done it in the past, and with the right tax incentives, etc. in place to keep jobs here at home doing this work, we should be able to continue to do so in the future.

I've been saying all along that one big way of telling Republicans the need for us to stop this outsourcing trend is to point out to them that you don't at some point want to be dependent on having all of your defense materials being made in China, which is where things might be leading if you allow all of the rest of our tech industry to outsource itself there. If this can put a stop on outsourcing, I think it's great.

As noted by others, this is one time where my hat is off to the Republican that put forth this bill.

[Kelvin Mace]

24. Balderdash!

"Homeland Security" is a sham. September 11th didn't happen because we didn't have our own Gestapo or because we didn't have a Patriot Act. It happened because we didn't follow the rules already on the books for proper security screening, we didn't ban box-cutters from aircraft and the airlines didn't want to dip into profits to pay for hardened cockpit doors. We also didn't LISTEN to the FBI agents who DID try to raise the alarm.

No law, program or agency will protect you from institutional stupidity, apathy and greed.

[reprobate]

36. Wrong. 9/11 happened because the PNAC conspira tors had decades to plan.

[Kelvin Mace]

40. Sorry, don't buy into overarching conspiracies.

[reprobate]

42. Kevin, not to believe in conspiracies is not to have read history.

What I know is that the PNACers did actually call for a "New American Pearl Harbor" in thier documents. They did say that everything they had planned depended on the "new American Pearl Harbor".

And everything that happened since would have been impossible wihout 9/11. There could have been no Afghanistan war, no Iraq war, no Homeland Security Act, in fact, not even a Bush second term.

You said you do not believe in overarching conspiracy theories. In that case you must not believe in:

The JFK assasination conspiracy. So Oswald was the lone assasin?

The RFK assasination conspiracy. So Sirhan was the lone assasin?

The Martin Luther King conspiracy. So the FBI and Hoover had nothin to do with it?

And of course, You don't believe that Prescot Bush our feerless leader's grandfather was financing the Hitler buildup to war in the late 30's and early 40's, and had his Union Banking Corporation confiscated under the Trading With The Enemies Act. So participation in conspiracies against the United States in not unknown in the Bush family. Seems to me, fool me once same on you, fool me twice shame on me.

IMHO if you could bring together all the enemies of the United States, the Bush family would have to top the list. Let's forget the three thousand and more of 9/11 deaths, just how many american lives was Prescot Bush responsible for ending by letting Hitler get a toehold in Germany. It would not have been possible without him.

Kevin, take off the blinders. Theres a big fascinating world out there, both the good and the bad.....And conspiracies have been with us since Oog and Ogg turned on Iggie to take over the cave.

To deny the facts of conspiracies throghout history is to play the fool. And I can't believe someone with your post count is a fool. Just unenlightened.

[MAlibdem]

41. who is promoting gestapo?

im saying we should buy the best, cheapest products in the world.

for a party that promotes internationalism, some people are really all about american-firstism in silly ways.

we should be america-first on defense. we should be america-first on saving money.

we shouldn't be america-first on unsound economic policies that hurt everyone.

take an economics course and get back to me.

[Kelvin Mace]

43. I was making reference

to silly justifications by pleas to "Homeland Security".

Actually, there are a number of reasons to not rely on foreign suppliers for items critical to national security. Mostly though, at the rate the US is pissing off the rest of the world, relying on foreign suppliers places us in a precarious position if the supplier boycotts us.

[OKthatsIT]

4. BRAVO...BUY AMERICAN, its about time

...we have the brains and the drive.

[dhinojosa]

7. Nice...

I am for this. Although I would warn not shut out products from other countries entirely. These high tech jobs should stay here. I don't go for the homeland security thing.

And as soon as we get Bush out of office, and start on real stem research development, then we will soon have advantages in health.

[pimpbot]

9. Actually makes sense

Most all software loaded on DoD computer systems is written by US companies. There is the whole acountable thing, where if there was a backdoor in the code, we can easily hold the company responsible.

Foriegn software has the POTENTIAL to contain backdoors and trojans. For the DHS, this makes sense.


Should the DHS waste $10 on a roll of american toliet paper when it can get one from mexico for $1? No, but in the case of computers holding our private information, I'd say its worth it.

[dhinojosa]

21. Absolutely.

Record keeping and accounting firms should also not export information.

[Hobarticus]

12. I get it...instead of demanding quality, and rewarding the best

manufacturer with our business, we'll bypass buying the best product on the market for some lesser product that's wrapped up in jingoistic "buy American" nonsense.

I'm not saying that American-made hardware and software is defective...but we should spend taxpayer dollars on the best on the market, should we not? If it ain't American...well, then American manufacturers better back away from the taxpayer trough and get their act together.

If people want to 'buy American", then American should be the best on the market. If it isn't, then passing laws to artificially manipulate the market won't act as an incentive to improve American-made product, and may in fact lead to it getting crappier.

For Republicans and their bullshit about free markets, this is pretty absurd.

Didn't we go through this before, with American-made vs. foreign-made cars? How far did government-mandated trade get us? American-made cars are hit-or-miss, quality-wise, and American auto companies are going down the tubes.

[SKKY]

14. That was my initial reaction, but apparently, some don't agree.

[cascadiance]

15. If we've taken this attitude, then we've already lost...

... our war to get industry back in this country. We may have a time where we have to deal with substandard products, but ultimately having control over that process here will pay its dividends. And our economy will benefit from more people working here too.

There's no inherent reason why we can't provide technologically superior products built here any more than other countries might. It's really a product management issue, and the government providing proper tax incentives to provide a profit motive to companies to invest here and not just handouts to industry to do as they please which results in them investing elsewhere at taxpayers' expense. There are many products that we have a strong presence in because we've built and nurtured those industries (Hollywood films, quite a few areas in software, etc.).

[Hobarticus]

17. I agree with everything you say, but...

Artificially manipulating the market by legislation is the absolute wrong way to go. It rewards incompetence and shoddy product, instead of excellence.

It absolutely flies in the face of the 'free trade' rhetoric that the GOP spews.

Taxpayer money shouldn't be mandated, but awarded.

"There's no inherent reason why we can't provide technologically superior products built here..."

Absolutely. No reason, at all.

[cascadiance]

20. But, the market is a creation by our legal system and our government...

They created the rules many years ago to set up corporations and markets, etc. and have updated them over time to make it work better.

I agree that we should avoid "getting in the way" of corporations too much to allow capitalism to work where it works best, but we also have to understand that there really is no such thing as "free trade". There are always some set of rules that are followed or there would be total anarchy and people ripping each other off, which would stagnate the global economy back to the stone age without such rules.

Thus, legislation at times is needed to tweak the incentives of companies to invest back where you want them to invest, and keep our jobs here, in addition to the market of consumers. Our market of consumers is dependent on having decent jobs available, or that market isn't sustainable in a healthy sense.

This legislation certainly isn't the only thing that's needed. Other areas are to follow up on Bernie Sanders' bill going through the house that would avoid giving any kind of tax incentives to companies that are found to be outsourcing more of their jobs rather than keeping them here. If the American taxpayer is going to give incentives to companies, then they should expect something back in return. Jobs!

Ultimately, if the government industry helps provide a set of rules that also says to companies "You need to build your capacity to build products here", they will do so. It might cost them more money to do so, but it would cost them more to not do so. Without this incentive though, they'll jump ship to building stuff overseas completely, which may be good from some folks' points of view (investors), but a bad thing for people wanting jobs here and seeing the overall negative effect on the economy of losing more jobs here.

[pie]

16. Homeland Security is a ton of horse crap

Same as the terror is everywhere fiction.
You can bet this will put tons of cash into the hands of
a very greedy bastards for extremely inferior products we don't
really need in the first place.

[Hobarticus]

19. You're absolutely right. eom

[Straight Shooter]

22. I agree with pie, with one exception.

I don't necessarily agree that the products will be "extremely inferior." We'll have to wait and see which products are chosen, and then scrutinize them, because we know the government won't.

As for the underlying motives, I'm in 100 percent agreement.

[youspeakmylanguage]

38. Do you think we reward the best manufacturers now?

Of course we don't - it's all based on politics and underhanded tactics.

The government, backed by our tax dollars, should do everything in it's power to bolster the American economy. It might be unreasonable to ask that every component of a product be manufactured in the USA, but only purchasing products assembled in the USA is a step in the right direction.

See http://www.unionbuiltpc.com/ if you don't think you can buy an American-made PC anymore.

[Gyre]

13. About fucking time!

Why couldn't a democrat have been bright enough to come up with this? What exactly is our problem? We seem to be deft enough to miss every opportunity handed us; that takes SOME talent.

Gyre

[brentspeak]

18. It's because the Democratic Party has forgotten its populist platform

Everything now is "abortion rights" and "gay rights", issues that never drew anyone but a tiny minority into the party. It seems like both Democratic leadership AND Democratic rank-and-file have lost touch with what made Democrats successful in the first place.

[Skidmore]

27. Bingo!

[dbonds]

23. If it is not made in the US it should be Open Source software.

Anything security related should be made here with full source code available to the government.

[Javaman]

25. I liken this to buying foreign oil...

I think this bill is wonderful idea.

First of all, it should have a point in it that ramps up to this requirement. This would promote business ventures in the US to accommodate this "new" demand.

But more so, many people here have complained about this bill. I don't get it. Here we are at the onset of peak oil, and we all deride our foreign policy over being hand tied to the whims of OPEC. We demand a new type of energy policy to extract ourselves from this energy blackmail. We want a home grown fuel source, ei: solar, wind, coal, nuclear, hydrogen etc.

However, when someone comes across with a bill that requires the same sort of thing in a different field, some people start crying foul. Why is that?

Investing in our infrastructure is not limited to energy, but to all sectors of the economy. Not a single TV or major household appliance is now made in the US, but only grumbles are heard about that.

Yet, when a US Gov't agency wants 50% of it's computers to be made here, various people start spouting off as to how awful of an idea this is.

We have seen this gov't push more and more US business to send their jobs offshore, we bitch about that, but finally someone gets a clue and wants to keep and create jobs here and people still complain.

What the fuck, folks?

So let me get this straight, according to this logic:

Importing oil = bad for us

Creating new jobs = bad for us

Importing computers = good for us

Outsourcing jobs = good for us

I believe in a global economy as much as the next person, but I was raised to believe that charity begins at home.

[Kelvin Mace]

26. Here's a Harris Miller quote

I got when I was in the secret meeting between ITAA and the Black Box Voting Yakuza:

“Similarly, when we get press calls and the press says ‘Joe Academic says your industry’s full of crap and doesn’t know what it is doing.’ What do you say Harris? The reporters always want to know what are the companies saying?.. And there can be two scenarios there: The companies may want to hide behind me, they don’t want to say anything... frequently that happens in a trade association, you don’t want to talk about the issues as individual companies. We have that issue right now with the Buy America Act, for example in congress. No company wants to act like it’s against Buy America -- even though they’re all against it – so I take all the heat for them.

http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/mt/archives/000973.html

[genieroze]

39. Rep. Don Manzullo, an Illinois Republican, good for him.

I doesn't go far enough though. I think anything paid by the taxpayer dollars should be 100% made in the U.S.A.