Resigned Pastor Denies Endorsing Candidate (waynesoro bc)

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

By TIM WHITMIRE
The Associated Press

WAYNESVILLE, N.C. -- A Baptist pastor accused of threatening to banish from his church anyone who didn't vote for President Bush has chosen to depart, saying he spoke out on candidates' stances but did not make political endorsements.

The Rev. Chan Chandler, 33, walked out of the East Waynesville Baptist Church, which he had led for three years, after delivering a brief statement of resignation Tuesday night.

With him went many of the young congregants he had attracted to the modest brick church on the outskirts of this small mountain town in western North Carolina. In an interview with a church publication Tuesday, Chandler denied endorsing any candidate from the pulpit, as critics had charged.

"I don't know how these folks voted," he told Baptist Press, a Nashville, Tenn.-based media arm of the Southern Baptist Convention. "And I never endorsed any candidate."

<snip>
http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050514/NEWS/505140319/1021

[DulceDecorum]

1. Thou shalt not lie.

[rocktivity]

10. Nor shalt thou spin or create men of straw.

Who ACCUSED him of endorsing a candidate? He's accused of banishing parishoners who voted for a candidate he didn't feel was Christian enough! Typical GOP victimhood and distractionism.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Liberal Veteran]

2. I did not have political intercourse with that man, George W. Bush.

:shrug:

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

6. LOL....

You owe me a keyboard! (coffee spew)

[librechik]

3. Yeah, God can see you, and besides we have you on tape!

faith-based unreality...

[libnnc]

4. la la la la

liar

and where is waynesboro bc?

[oneighty]

5. OK

Your fifteen minutes of fame is up.

At 33 Y/O he should still be learning life's lessons. Not preaching.

Oh he did learn one.

180

[TahitiNut]

7. What's disgusting is that his rabid followers will parrot this denial.

Never mind that he was recorded. Never mind that this is an outright lie. True Believers don't let facts get in the way of 'faith.'

[IndianaGreen]

8. This man gets a medal for doublespeak

But he acknowledged citing from the pulpit what he believes are the "unbiblical values" of some political hopefuls. "But those were negative endorsements -- never a positive endorsement" of any candidate, he said.

Chandler admitted in the interview that he cited Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry's views on abortion and homosexuality in one sermon. He said he also mentioned two Republicans whose views he said were out of step with the Bible.

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050514/NEWS/505140319/1021

If this isn't endorsing a candidate, I don't know what is.

[Liberal Veteran]

9. If you vote for Kerry you are a heathen doomed to hell and...

...you should resign from the church!!!!

See! I didn't endorse George W. Bush!!!!

[gratuitous]

12. Chandler's a fool, but he's not completely stupid

He's reframing his remarks, which were illegal, into the barest conformance with IRS rules about endorsements. It's illegal to support or condemn a candidate by name, but it's okay to limn the political stances of a particular candidate: "Please keep in mind, my flock, that Candidate X voted against the bill that would have provided additional funding to the Food Shelter, one of the outreach ministries here at Goodbody Community Church. Candidate Y has been on the board of the Food Shelter."

If it's true that X voted against the bill and Y has been on the board of this outfit, then the pastor has made no endorsement, simply laid out the facts for his congregants to draw their own conclusion. If a congregant doesn't think the Food Shelter is a valid outreach ministry of the church, that congregant can disregard what's been said.

Chandler's recorded remarks, threatening the membership of congregants who didn't vote the way he said they should vote, and then terminating their memberships, was clearly over the line. He's now trying to backtrack and backfill, in essence saying that what he actually did was not what he meant to do. Or something. But the mere fact of bringing up a candidate's record has been determined not to constitute an endorsement or non-endorsement.

[AspenRose]

23. Yep. Sounds like his lawyer has coached him on how to respond.

Oh, for crying out loud, Chandler, quit giving REAL Christians a bad name!

People like this give the church a black eye.

[brooklynite]

28. What he says here isn't important...

Either - factually - he did or did not evict people from the Church for their political views, specifically their chosen candidate for President. If the facts prove that he did, all the backpedaling in the world about whether he did or didn't "endorse" a candidate is going to be irrelevant.

All that being said however, since he's left the church (apparently with a number of his like-minded congregants), my guess is that the IRS isn't going to come after them as an institution.

[chaumont58]

11. I don't understand why he is quiting

I would bet his thinking hasn't changed one iota. That he sees nothing wrong with what he did. There are other ministers more prominent than this guy who have done the same thing. On the fundie channel, TBN, the owner, Paul Crouse, introduced another minister, Rod Parsley as one who was instrumental in Bush's victory in Ohio.
The far right will take care of this guy. Scaife will spring with money so that the right(fits doesn't it) reverend will never go hungry. He will wind up in a bigger church.

[DulceDecorum]

14. He is leaving for the same reason that

Jeff Gannon resigned from Talon News
and the same reason why roaches run when you turn on the lights.

At least he taking his chorus line with him.

[MGKrebs]

24. Yeah, Saddam gave money to the surviving families of suicide bombers

(murderers, true), and we condemn it as 'supporting terrorism". But if Scaife or somebody steps up here and supports their lawbreaker lying brother, I submit that they are supporting lawlessness and lying.

A pastor who will not forgive his parishoners deserves no forgiveness.
A liar cannot be trusted.
This person will not get the help he really needs in the arms of other liars and lawbreakers.

[chomskysright]

27. because he had no footing and the Baptists were in a pickle:

my letter to the Baptist Press last Monday eve:

May 9, 2005



Hello Baptist Press people and in particular, Reverend Waylan Owens:



I come from a God-fearing family, a long, long line of Baptists. My mother is the salt of the earth and a saint. Ditto for all the people in my background: simple folk.

That being said, I continue to be appalled, disappointed, and horrified at the bullying tactics that you cannot seem to resist. Now, it is expanded, in Mr. Owens article, to spinning the information which is simply an attempt to hem-haw and dance on the head of a pin.

I believe that many Americans would like for the Baptists to stop politicizing their churches. Concerned people, and there are many, are not targeting the Baptists. The Catholics, the Presbyterians, the Methodists, ALL need to stop this practice. You are not being singled out.

Here's your letter, Mr. Owens and I have rebutted it utilizing references from ews reports and law firms (SoftMoneyHardLaw) which support the efforts of 501c3 entities.

I am disappointed that you have resorted to hearsay, frankly, as per the below article. And I also find demeaning and offensive your condescending tone as per the below.



FIRST-PERSON: Is there more to the N.C. church story?
Monday, May 9, 2005
By Waylan Owens ( Baptist Press)


WAKE FOREST, N.C. (BP)--Chan Chandler is one of my students. You may have heard of him. He is the pastor of the East Waynesville Baptist Church in Waynesville, N.C. According to the Associated Press, Chan ousted all the members of the church who would not support George W. Bush in the 2004 presidential election.

Another, more descriptive, local article: Ousted worshippers stand their ground on Mother's Day : by Andre A. Rodriguez, STAFF WRITER , published: May 9, 2005 6:00 am
http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050509/NEWS01/50508008/1001

Now, if that were true, that would be one sensational story. The real sensational story, though, has been the media’s frenzy over supposed evidence of the religious right’s imposition of a theocracy in America.

Undeniable evidence, across the board:

1: bill that would allow for pastors to say what they please w/o the church paying taxes for such partisan maneuvering:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-235

2. http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050424/1026847.asp: Frist critics decry appeal to religion By HILARY ROXE Associated Press 4/24/2005


What a place for right-wing Christian radicals to begin, in a church of about 100 people in Waynesville, N.C., a community of about 9,200. What a time to start: nine members “ousted” seven months after the election because they would not vote for President Bush.

But what is the real story? The media has refused to do the work necessary to find out the truth.

Real news, real journalists, really there: http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050509/NEWS01/50508008/1001
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050508/ap_on_re_us/church_politics&printer=1

Dogging Chan, who understandably has refused to talk so far, the media has ignored all of the members of the church who actually did the voting. Why have we only heard from those voted out or from their supporters? Why are there no quotes from the members who said, "enough is enough?"

Why did Chan refuse to talk? He had plenty to say before:
"Sunday’s service “was the first sermon I’ve heard since October that politics wasn’t mentioned,” said Edith Nichols, a 29-year member of East Waynesville, who said she was voted out." http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050509/NEWS01/50508008/1001

Many facts have gone unreported or obscured in the media’s efforts to scandalize a young minister who has taken a stand for biblical morality and the life of a baby resting in her mother’s womb.

You would have to have read closely to know that at least one of the members voted out of fellowship of the church is a self-confessed Republican.

Yes, and what did SHE have to say about all of this? :
“Our memberships were terminated because we did not agree to have a political church,” said Thelma Lowe, the lone Republican voted out. “I did not vote for Kerry.”
http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050509/NEWS01/50508008/1001

None of the media has seemed interested in the fact that perhaps a majority of the members doing the voting are registered Democrats.

So? Are you maligning the fact that they are Democrats?

Do you wonder how those nine had behaved during the seven months between Chan’s statement on John Kerry in October and last Monday evening? Have any reporters asked whether disunity and ongoing, uncharitable disruption in the church by this group of nine played any part in the final vote tally?

I assume you speculate that this 'disunity' had NOTHING to do with the pastor "sermons...with politics."

Does it tell us something that in spite of the Bible’s clear admonition not to take one another to court in 1 Corinthians 6, the nine’s first response was to go find a lawyer?

You admittedly lost me there. The pastor had an attorney; the people who were 'ousted' also had an attorney----both present in the service and who spoke to the press subsequent to church. If the Southern Baptists think it is un-Christian to have an attorney, then why did the pastor have one? :
"The pastor released a written statement through his attorney, John J. Pavey Jr.," http://www.citizen- times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050509/NEWS01/50508008/1001 Of note: I saw the attorney and so did the people of the church, speaking to the press subsequent to the service.

Is there more to this story, and is the media interested in finding it?

I keep waiting to read or to hear the fact that at the same time Chan called on members to repent for voting for John Kerry, he also called on members to repent if they had voted for two Republicans. I believe that October message was recorded.

When do you think the media will report that the core of Chan’s message was the very message of the Catholic Church and its new Pope who, before becoming Pope, wrote a paper calling for communion to be withheld from those who actively support abortion, presumably identifying Kerry clearly enough for even the media to understand it.

I grew up Baptist. Last time I checked, the Baptists never listened to anything the Catholics had to say and in fact talked about how they were 'going to hell'.

Now, Chan did not have the sophistication and public relations skills of a man about to become Pope. That may be one reason he has refused so far to open himself to the editing room of today’s media. But his message was the same. You cannot call yourself a member of a church that stands against abortion and then actively support abortion through your politics.

What a novel idea! Your life should match your religious profession. As we used to say when I was growing up, “You gotta walk the talk!” Imagine that, Christians living out with integrity what they claim to believe.

No one has a problem with Christians living their walk; indeed, I am grateful for people, like my mother, who pray for me. The problem occurs when they attempt to coerce others to replicate their 'religious profession.'

What is strange is that the media would not be sympathetic to Chan. After all, they are constantly reporting the lack of integrity among God’s people who claim to believe one way and then live another. Aren’t we all tired of the Christians, especially pastors and church leaders, who are caught in adultery and embezzlement and tax fraud each year? Wouldn’t we all like men who claim to preach the Word also call us to live the Word?

If Chan had taken my class before his October pronouncement about Kerry and the two Republicans, he would have heard my discouragement of naming names or political parties.

It sounds like you are saying that he was not educated 'enough' and that he is therefore 'guilty' of not functioning in a manner in keeping with a Baptist minister. And so why, Mr. Owens, was he allowed to administer to a congregation if he was not 'well enough' trained?

And while I am not certain that Chan violated any rules, I do teach my students to steer as wide a berth as possible in such matters, giving great respect to the law, even to IRS regulations.

That is undoubtedly important given the partisan nature of his preaching as associated with the Southern Baptist 501c3 status which precludes organizations from electioneering: http://www.moresoftmoneyhardlaw.com/articles/20050223.cfm;

However, since I believe that America should protect freedom of conscience and the right to speak freely in a religious pulpit, I am saddened that a young minister should be subject to such an inquisition for standing for biblical morality and the teachings of his church.

Then it appears that the Southern Baptists should pay taxes if they desire to act in this kind of partisan manner. : "The Internal Revenue Service exempts certain organizations from taxation including those organized and operated for religious purposes, provided that they do not engage in certain activities including involvement in “any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.” Valerie Thornton, a spokeswoman for the Internal Revenue Service, said she could not comment on the East Waynesville situation, but said “in general if a church engages in partisan politics, it could put their tax-exempt status in jeopardy.”
http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050507/NEWS01/50506036/1001

That being said, we should not cower in fear before our government, but rather we should fear the Lord our God, and stand upon His word. Chan was not as diplomatic as he could have been, but his intended message is one we all should embrace, whatever our religious stripe. If you profess it, you should live it. If you believe it, your life should show it. Your religion should apply to, and impact, all areas of your life, or it is not a religion at all.

This is all fine if you are not engaged in electioneering, which appears to have been the case here.

Whether Jew or Muslim or Catholic or Protestant or whatever religion you hold -- even if you claim to be an atheist -- Chan’s exhortations should remind us all: Talk is cheap. Integrity demands that what we say and what we do should match.
--30--
Waylan Owens is vice president of planning and communications at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, NC. He also teaches a class in pastoral ministry.


And so, Mr. Owens, what kind of side-stepping is this?

Contrarily,

Christ said:
John 8:32

You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.

In my opinion, you are advocating mischevious phrasing and wording which leaves one scratching one's head, wondering, "now what did he mean by that?"

This was not an isolated incident in Waynesville. I witnessed it during my childhood, in the 1960's. Another pastor at another Baptist church in Waynesville testified that many of the local pastors had been 'preaching' to their flock to vote for Bush: "Pastor Robert Prince III of First Baptist Church of Waynesville said he was appalled to hear about the claims but noticed a lot of Southern Baptist ministers endorsing President Bush in November’s election.", Asheville Citizen-Times

Many, many people would testify to the politicization in which you have engaged.

My goodness, was not that big charade in Nashville with Senator Frist an attempt to maximize your

Here is yet another person talking about such, just a passing conversation on www.democraticunderground.com:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3626619

"My brother-in-law, before he passed, was a SO. Baptist music minister. He came right out and told me that Democrats aren't welcomed in his church.
I replied that I would want nothing to do with a church that doesn't teach Jesus' message. He and his kind can roll around in the mud while the rest of us continue to treat others with love and compassion the way Jesus did.


Overall, the fundamentalists, inclusive of yourselves as related to what you 'officially' state, are perceived as hatefully, maliciously attempting to destroy this democracy. Do you believe Christ would be pleased with that?

Please stop bullying us, manipulating us, telling half-truths, and in general, politicizing the churches. We wish to worship there. You wish to create some kind of beast that is of mamon, not of God.

Otherwise, the Southern Baptists should pay your taxes, Mr. Owens.

PRINT THIS, if you dare, Baptist Press.

Sincerely,

[DulceDecorum]

13. What's up with his name?

It loooks like his parents were filling out paperwork and started to write the last name in the space reserved for the first name and then stopped and turned it in like that anyway.

That is a mistake even Charles Manson's parents didn't make.

[Wright Patman]

15. 'With him went many of the young congregants

he had attracted to the modest brick church ...'

This is the key sentence. And it does not bode well for the future of this country.

The older generation of Southern Baptists is relatively more educated (back then finishing high school was equivalent to a college degree today) and is more aware of the danger of mixing politics with religion. I never thought I'd see a younger generation of "brownshirts" rebelling against the "flower power" freedom of their "degenerate" elders, but that's what's happening.

The same thing is happening in the big SBC church here. A fellow who could be a clone of Chan Chandler has attracted several hundred new members since he came here five years ago, mostly younger people. He is fortyish and rabidly pro-Bush. He all but worships the Chimperor. He also skated very close to the 501(c)(3) line several times last year. I never understood why he thought he needed to campaign from the pulpit in the Chimp's home state, but I guess it was something "the Lord" (which may mean * in his mind) called him to do in case there were any out-of-state visitors in the congregation.

The problem in the months since the Top Banana assumed office for his second term is that the collections are falling significantly short of what was budgeted. I think his not-ready-for-primetime primate in the White House has scared many of the elderly tithers to cut back until they figure out what he's trying to do to their Social Security.

And, of course, the young protofascist families he's recruited into the First Bushtist Church can barely feed, clothe and shelter their kids, so that's no solution to the financial crisis and I'll bet this is beginning to dawn on the guy by now. It's too late, though. The church still owes $1 million on a new family life center, much less not being able to meet the bills as they come due each week.

Suffice it to say next year's budget, absent a faith-based initiative infusion from the RNC, will have to be scaled back considerably, unless you heathen here on DU want to help out....? Didn't think so.

[notadmblnd]

16. find another charismatic preacher

Young people remain loyal to no one very long. Surely the church has a JR. Pastor who has influence with the churches young that be willing to abandon his loyalty to Chan for his own self interest. Don't sit back and play the victim, play their own game against them.

and you thought you wouldn't get any help from DU.

[livinginphotographs]

17. He was on tape doing it!

If you're going to tell a bald-faced lie, at least do a better job of it.

[napi21]

18. How true! I used to always tell my kids....

If you're going to lie, at least make it believable!!!!

[sarcasmo]

19. Politician Chan Chandler learning already how to spin the news.

[Roland99]

20. "'cause I'm the Tax Man...yeah...yeah...I'm the Tax Man"

And I'm comin' to get you, Chan!

[LiberallyInclined]

21. ABC News played a tape from October of him endorsing Bush -

fucking liar.

[FreepFryer]

22. 'Bear False Witness' much, you hypocritical amoral douche? (n/t)

[Lone_Star_Dem]

25. Correct me if I'm wrong

But, didn't he say, God had urged him to endorse President Bush as the only truly Christian candidate.

Flip flopper. :eyes:

On edit:

Yes, he did. I found a link to the story.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Politics/story?id=742265&page=1

[chomskysright]

26. WELL, as I was there: the new congregants were:

cuckoos: the bird that kick the others out of their nest.

And frankly, if you had seen this rag tag bunch of corpulently overweight (3 500 pounders) scrappy, mostly unkempt, undesirables.....

'young ' would not have been your only descriptor:

my article:

Waynesville, NC pastor resigns: the Tale of the Cuckoo Coup

Well, I was just in church at East Waynesville Baptist for the 'meeting' ...sitting with the older people, awaiting the coming in of the pastor, Chan Chandler, from the back of the church to deliver...well, what?

The news that he was resigning.

Its a weird tale and although I'm familiar, somewhat with these kinds of cloak and dagger activities as not terribly rare amongst Baptist church members , this tale has special meaning for me related to a keen interest of mine: apathy: why are people apathetic; what seats it; what cranks it.

The pastor, Chan Chandler, has been there for approx 2 years. The older members, who originally invited him and who essentially established the church and maintained its growth for decades, didn't like that he had turned all of his sermonizing into a political diatribe. They asked him to stop it; eventually, since last October, after the meet and greet, they would just get up and leave because they knew what was next: the politically based sermons.

The 'older' deacons tried to 'escort him to the door'; he essentially indicated that, "I don't need no stinkin'deacons to function 'round here."

Oddly, but as re: his cuckoo coup ('coocoocachoo: I am the Eggman')attempt, and over the past 8 mos or so, he has created another population of members within the church, essentially acting as does the cuckoo bird: pushing the original birds' eggs out of the nest. This coup, which the older members recognized but were unable to stop, continued until it eventually built to the point that Monday a week ago, the swelling numbers of 'new' members were able to vote out the 'old' deacons---the crew of the church, the (always) guys at the helm. The members who were clapping as the 'old' deacons were voted out and asked to physically leave the premises were the new usurper members : subscribers to the cuckoo coup.

Now, to physically view the two sets of people is to underline yet more vividly the matter: the older members dress as do older rural heart- of-America people: neatly; hair trimmed and coifed; gentlemen wearing clean clothes; sensible pumps for the ladies. Older, established but not wealthy, friendly folks.

The cuckoo bird members were strikingly less orderly in their appearance but they acted like they ran the place. And as I think back over my biology undergraduate degree, wasn't the cuckoo actually a rather dull, unglamorous, bird?

Homely birds do have to resort to strategies in keeing with their assets, perhaps. When I was in church this past Sunday, it was ONLY the new members who were singing in the choir, leading us all in the tiresome 4 verses of 'How Great Thou Art' (my, the group narcissism is killing me now as I think about it).

Interestingly, the two sets of people sat in different parts of this small church which, by the way, had only approx 100 members, not several hundred as a news source stated. The older people, indeed, sat at the 'back of the bus.' One of my pew-buddies, an older lady, explained to me that this is where 'we always sat.' I had to wonder why they were always at the back of the bus. Did they start when the new pastor came? Did they do it because they liked to socialize some of the time (though I didn't notice any such when I was in church on Sunday). Hell: maybe it was safer in the back of the bus.

The cuckoos are not very social birds, best I recall. How can someone be sociable when you're so persistently trying to make homeless another bird?

So, this evening, as the older people and I presumed that the 'other church' was in the back plotting to yet undo them some more, the pastor, his wife, and the 'new' members all marched out and sat down. The pastor lead a prayer (he seems fixated on things associated with abortion issues), then pretty briefly explained that he felt he needed to resign in order to continue his education.

Surely this doesn't have ANYTHING to do with my comment to the Baptist Press last night which was directed to Reverend Owens, who apparently teaches at the Southern Theological Seminary (in Nashville, TN, the city that was the setting for Frist's Follies at the mega Baptist church two Sundays ago and home of the Baptist Press). Owens is one of Chan Chandler's teachers there. On their website last evening Owens glibly meandered on about 'why is there such a fuss in ha, ha, this little town of Waynesville, fewer than 10,000 people' (the tempest in a teapot strategy). Owens remarked in that posting,"If Chan had taken my class before his October pronouncement about Kerry and the two Republicans, he would have heard my discouragement of naming names or political parties." to which I relied: "It sounds like you are saying that he was not educated 'enough' and that he is therefore 'guilty' of not functioning in a manner in keeping with a Baptist minister. And so why, Mr. Owens, was he allowed to administer to a congregation if he was not 'well enough' trained?"

After resigning, that home-town boy walked out with his wife in tow. Then all the 'new' members walked out, with two of them calling the older members 'liars' and another gave reference to some verse in Chapter 8 of Psalms. It felt like we were getting the finger, frankly.

Then an older gentleman, righteous in his posture and fervent with his prayer, and someone that the older lady sitting next to me indicated: "I was surprised when he went over to their side", prayed for about what felt like ten minutes. He was teary; he prayed that we all remembered that this was the Lord's house and not anyone's there. I was simultaneously struck by his heartfulness and noted the jibes re: 'who's house is this anyway?'

My bench companions, as I turned and acquainted myself with them--- (they all had registered and were appreciative, apparently, of my homemade sign from this past Sunday which queried: "Who Would Jesus Exclude?" This evening, as the older members waiting patiently for the raucous cuckoos, one woman, in a quietly exasperated voice, asked why the new members didn't, 'go get their own church...we worked long and hard for this church.'

WELL: the older people sat quietly for a few moments and then one of them got up and started playing the piano in a quite lovely fashion after he was asked to do so by another one of the older members.

So, I asked the lady behind me what she thought they had lost and she stated, "some integrity." They begin their search for a new pastor soon.


THE BULLYING STRATEGY OF THE AMERICAN RIGHT-WING CUCKOOS

From the narcissistic hymn choice ("How Great Thou Art": people give themselves away so easily; they can hardly help it) this past Sunday to the clucking, scratching, biting, and kicking of the persistent cuckoos---determined to not stop until the well-established were made homeless----I submit that this event is a panypticon of what is taking place in America now.

If we could stand at the top of this spiral structure which is our democracy, without being seen, and look down on this mean-spirited con job, we'd see some very morally rag-tag people trying to unseat our American endeavor which is, as Lewis Lapham, editor, of Harper's magazine said years ago: "Democracy is an attempt to organize the freedom of the mind against the tyranny of force, money, and superstition."

As hard as many of us have worked over the past 6 months, I am quite confident that if we keep showing the cuckoos up, with all of our nests, we will succeed in ousting these imposters.

[dmr]

30. It's all very sad for those who

heartfully want to worship but were placed in a double political turmoil. National politics and church politics.

This minister failed to respect why he was in that House. It was not for personal gain or fame, and not for his personal brand of religion.

The woman who said she felt they lost their integrity is wrong, they maintained their integrity when they didn't fall into that minister's mob mentality.

Christ isn't one dimensional. He doesn't focus all his attention on one issue or concern any more than the rest of us do. For a mortal man, this minister devalues Christ by betraying his responsibilities by turning the church into a GOP-like war-zone.

Bush* was wrong on so many levels when he said either you're with us or you're against us. His behavior has emboldened otherwise silent people into nasty minority loudmouths and troublemakers.

This minister, along with so many, defy the Ten Commandments each time they lie or twist the truth for their convenience.

I wish that congregation well as they recover from this fiasco.

[anitar1]

29. Religious zealots are all liars,

People who have such a strong personality disorder as theis man appears to have, are actually in need of an institution. IMO.Some of these churches are perfect refuges for sick minds.