Sharp words traded at evolution hearing (Kansas)

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7832407/

A Topeka attorney on Thursday denounced intelligent-design advocates and conservative State Board of Education members for what he said were their unwarranted attacks on evolution.

Pedro Irigonegaray's arguments came during the last day of hearings before a subcommittee of the State Board of Education, focusing on how evolutionary theory is taught. The entire board plans to consider by August changes in standards that determine how students are tested on science statewide.

During a two-hour attack on language proposed by intelligent-design advocates, Irigonegaray lectured presiding members, telling them they are damaging science education and the state's reputation.

"You have a responsibility to the children and the future of this state that you have sadly sadly failed," Irigonegaray told them.

[cornermouse]

1. He's right.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[da_chimperor]

3. "Welcome to Kansas: the Lesotho of North America"

That would be nice. :D

[katty]

23. Sounds like these morons missed out on intelligent design

[struggle4progress]

56. Widespread ignorance in Kansas is not Lesotho's fault. eom

[HockeyMom]

7. Bible

I am a Special Ed TA. One year I was assigned one on one to a little 1st grade boy who had "severe emotional problems". The children in class were required to read every night at home and stand up in class and report on what they had read. This little boy's mother would ONLY let him read the Bible. Every day he had to stand up in class and say the same thing "I read the Bible. I don't know why my Mom makes me read this silly book every night." The child would grab every book off the shelf in free period to read them. He was so jealous of all the other kids who got to read children's books, and not the Bible.

Each parent was assigned a day where they would come in and read before the class. Joey's Mom wanted to come in and read from the Bible. The boy begged his Mom NOT to do that. He said he didn't want to be embarrassed before the entire class. With a lot of prodding from both Joey and the teacher, his Mom finally agreed to read something else before the class.

I also remember that his Mom made him wear a cross every day to school. Joey used to hide it under his shirt. One day he asked me what it meant. No way as I going to to do that. I told Joey to ask his Mom what it meant, even though I am the same religion as he was and even went to the same church. It is not job to teach RELIGION. So, so, sad.

There needs to be a balance between religion and childhood. Let children be children. I felt so sad for that poor little boy. I wonder how many other kids there are that are having the same "emotional" problems as little Joey.

[Zhade]

13. IMHO, that's child abuse right there.

That poor kid - but he sounds like he's unlikely to become a fundie, if he can hang on.

You did well. Good for you, and let's hope the boy manages to survive his clearly insane mother.

[davidinalameda]

16. did anyone else see the movie "Carrie"

don't let this kid go the prom any time soon

[GOPFighter]

20. LOL!!!

Got that right!

[jazzjunkysue]

55. Anybody see the Hand Maiden's Tale?

Thank God I'm no longer fertile...

[NAO]

4. We need a team of top scientists and lawyers to fight this nonsense

If we want to preserve the quality of education, and prevent the United States from becoming an International laughing stock, we need a crack team of top evolutionary biologists and top attorneys to be able to fight these cases.

We need to have top scientists to demolish the pseudo-science that creationists use in their arguments, and we need lawyers to follow up on that and make sure that science, not religious superstition, is taught in science classes.

If, somehow the creationists prevail, and win the case, forcing the schools to teach creationism, we need have the ACLU to come in and follow-up and insist that ALL creation myths be taught - not just the Hebrew version. If our schools are going to teach mythology, they should at least teach comparative mythology and make sure all mythological traditions are treated equally.

Creation Myths From Around the World
http://www.magictails.com/creationlinks.html

Creation Mythology
http://members.aol.com/egyptart/crea.html

[Tux]

5. Let them have Kansas

We'll see who gets more corporate factories, offices, better high school ratings, and whose high school grads go to better colleges. Let's see how their dream will end up in poverty.

[NAO]

8. They don't care about poverty, but WE end up getting stuck with the bill

That's the whole problem, as Thomas Frank so eloquently stated in "What's the Matter With Kansas". These people are die-hard Republicans, and they REMAIN so EVEN AFTER it has been explained to them that Republican policies are responsible for their poverty.

They believe that protecting "their way of life" is more important than financial advantage. The only problem is that WE get stuck with the bill. It's either that or their children and their old people suffer from horrible deprivation.

Now possibly SOME of those old people are partially responsible for the mess they are in, but the children are completely innocent, and even though their parents are idiots whose ideas about the world belong in the middle ages, the children should not suffer from want of basic necessities.

And most importantly, there is a strategic factor here. If the RRR (the Rabid Religious Reich) feels that they are gaining ground, they will be emboldened to try for even for insane power grabs in their quest for American Theocracy. They MUST be fought tooth and nail and stopped at every possible point of intervention.

The Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party
a public information project from TheocracyWatch.org
http://www.theocracywatch.org

The Swift Advance of a Planned Coup:
Conquering by Stealth and Deception - How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm

The Despoiling of America: How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

[Tux]

10. I read part of that book

Conservatives did remove income as a factor of class and replaced it with purchase preferences. It's dumb but people bought it. Best thing to do is to avoid that stereotype, show GOPerverts for what they are (if that works I doubt it), and made a big deal over the British memo.

[xxqqqzme]

14. but it is the rabid,

radical, relgious rong's children that become the civil service grade 20's that man all those government offices and carry out the RRRR's agenda

[atommom]

24. Nope. Sorry. We're not letting them have the whole damn state.

They can have their day in the sun today, but the non-wingnuts are going to take them down eventually.

:patriot:

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. Amen Atommom

We aren't going down without a fight.

:patriot:

[VegasWolf]

34. Really, give them Kansas!!! Then, instead of the Kansas school system

being 4th in the list of developed countries educational systems
like the rest of the US,
why Kansas could come in 50th!

[atommom]

36. Um, I don't think so. But thanks anyway.

[VegasWolf]

39. LOL! I don't live there so it's an easy solution for me! n/t

[atommom]

45. The thing is, these people have their sights set on more than just

Kansas. Watch your state legislatures and your school boards carefully!

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. NO!!

I live in Kansas and am not willing to give in to these idiots. No way.

[Catt03]

27. As I understand it,

scientists refused to appear because they said they cannot argue science with people who base their argument with no science.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. The scientists in KS

boycotted these hearings. They had a really hard time finding any who were willing to come to Topeka to testify. Most didn't want to debate the 'flat earth' society.

[atommom]

49. This school board has heard a lot from the scientific community.

The reason the scientists are boycotting the hearings is that many of them did speak up earlier in the process ... and the conservative board members paid no attention whatsoever. They had already made their decision.

It's also not that easy to defend science to non-scientists in the public square. All the ID crowd has to do is raise doubts, get attention, and come up with some snappy soundbites. The scientists are at a clear disadvantage, even though they have far more evidence on their side. It's hard to reduce years of scientific inquiry into a soundbite, and observers who don't have much of a science background will not necessarily understand why the scientists' arguments have so much more weight.

The ID people also have a great deal of support from conservative religious groups. I'm aware that not all ID proponents are Christians, but the players in our current Kansas drama have made many statements about how God needs to be brought into the schools. This is not a fight about science ... it's a fight about rebuilding our culture. That is why I keep bringing up the Domininionists, and that's why I get cranky when people suggest this whole fight is because of Kansas' inherent stupidity. It's a lot bigger than that.

[karlrschneider]

6. If I had been there, other "sharp" things may well have been in evidence..

:grr:

[DesEtoiles]

9. Did God create science? I'd love the hear their answer to that.

[Tux]

11. They'd say no

To fundies, science is atheistic religion to "prove" that God doesn't exist.

[geckosfeet]

18. God created,,,,,,,

Well,,, that is an interesting question. To say that God created science you would first have to agree that God created man.

I guess you could say that God created the process we call the universe if one was inclined to believe in God that way.

[renaissanceguy]

21. They can't believe in fact.

I wonder how they account for dinosaurs and fossils. After all, they believe God literally created the world in seven human days.

[entanglement]

22. Oh, Don't worry about that, they're creative creationists ;)

Its also funny how the creationists depend on advances in science to furnish their ever-changing (nonsensical) counter-arguments LOL

[Pied Piper]

26. Here's my favorite rebuttal:

They like to say that the world was created in 7 days. Now, I'd like to believe that even the most dull-headed among them would agree that a "day" is the 24-hour period in which the earth revolves upon its axis, thus giving the illusion of the sun (a stationary object relative to the earth) rising in the east and setting in the west.

Ah, but God created the sun and the moon and the stars on the 4th day (Gen 1:16); so how are they able to determine the length of days, when, according to their holy scriptures, there was absolutely nothing in the heavens to give them a reference point. The objects which give definition to the word "day" didn't even exist until the week was half over. Thus their argument falls flat on its face on the very first page of the bible.

If only they could look at the creation story as it is - a beautiful story, not scientific fact.

Let's take this a step further, shall we? All of the animals were created before the humans. Couldn't this possibly be interpreted as a biblical example of evolution? All of it, right there, on the very first page of the bible.

I was raised a Christian, and I even hold my undergraduate degree from a Christan liberal arts (how ironic!) college. An outstanding education - we were taught to examine critically all sources, except for the holy book, which was off limits and unerring.

Pfft.

I could go on and on with a dissertation on my beliefs, but I think I've said enough for now.

Pied Piper

[VegasWolf]

40. Can gawd create a science so strong that it disproves gawd? n/t

[slackmaster]

12. He was not assertive enough IMO

Let's call a spade a spade - The "intelligent design" people are pushing a theocratic agenda, dishonestly dancing around the fact that their ideas are rooted in their religious beliefs.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

15. What the Fuck is the Matter With Kansas!

[atommom]

25. The same thing that is the matter with the whole Domininist

movement, coming soon to a city near you.

[geckosfeet]

17. Of course he is right.

No kidding.

To ask science teachers in their schools to teach that the validity of evolution is in questions is a disservice to children and science as a whole.

Anyone involved in any scientific endeavor has already accepted that all theories, models and postulations are fair game for being modified, improved or disproved. Normally this is done through professionally accepted venues and methods and not through political pressure.

I am fairly appalled that anyone can sanely argue that biblical reference should be the basis for discounting anything, much less the theory of evolution.

[DrZeeLit]

19. Hey! Welcome to DU! Jump right in... water's fine. Teeming with

all sortsa bio material!
Tee hee.

Have fun!

[HockeyMom]

28. Difference between Creationism and Intelligent Design

Creationism takes everything in the Bible as literal fact: world created in 6 days, Adam was created instantaneously from God, etc. Intelligent design is that God had a hand in evolution. It does not ignore science; the world was created by a "big bang", humans evoluted from lower life forms, etc.

With the Intelligent Design theory it is possible to teach evolution in public schools (which should be taught) and just leave out the God created evolution part, and save that religous aspect for the churches and those who want to believe that. Creationism on the other hand ignores science and only allows for that which is written in the Bible.

[atommom]

29. But these ID proponents do not want evolution taught unless it is

watered down and presented with a lot of caveats. And the current ID movement does indeed have a strong religious component. They may accept that creationism can't be taught, but they want to strip the concept of "godless" evolution of any credibility it might otherwise have.

Many teachers will try to sidestep the whole issue to avoid showdowns with students and parents.

[geckosfeet]

33. Difference between Intelligent Design and Evolution ?

I would not go so far as to say I think God "designed" the universe in the sense that I understand the word design. And I am not sure that I would use the word intelligent for the evolutionary process. Its certainly not an efficient process.

But you seem to be saying that intelligent design encompasses evolution. What does it add to or how does it alter evolution theory?

[bpilgrim]

37. lol

peace

[Roland99]

38. If they offered up alien life forms as a possible "Intelligent Designer'

I might start listening. ;)

[lateo]

48. I was going to bring this up...

It almost seems like the Creationists have realised they can't win with their "Young Earth" theories so they are taking a middle road.

[atommom]

51. Bingo, baby!

[geckosfeet]

31. thanks !

Glad to be aboard. Looks like a great crew !

[harpo]

30. Topeka, Kansas...home of the nutbags godhatesfags.com, figures!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Topeka is also home to

some great DUers. I have met them. And they have a huge battle on their hands with Phelps.

[Roland99]

32. At least Connie Morris "forgives him"

:puke:



MSNBC has links for each day of coverage

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7749688/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7762026/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7771753/

[VegasWolf]

35. What the hell is wrong with Kansas?

[Sabriel]

52. It's not just Kansas

It's going on here in Wisconsin, too.

[triguy46]

46. Whatever it is

Look for it soon in your state. With 55% of US population doubting something they don't understand, its only logical that we would
require teaching of the supernatural as the best solution. When in doubt, we can assume gods, witches, aliens, etc. Cecause, of course,
we now know everything there is to know.

[trof]

47. Why are we (they) spending time on this?

With all the REAL crap that's burying us, why the hell are we spending time on ridiculous BS like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

[atommom]

50. And taxpayers' money, too. We paid for this three-ring circus.

[mainer]

53. Take away their accreditation. No college will take them.

Let Kansas parents know that their kids are not going to be getting into any good colleges if their high school science classes are considered to be little more than Sunday School classes.

[davidinalameda]

54. and they won't be getting any decent jobs in the science field either

maybe in the preaching field but certainly not in science