Sailor Pablo Paredes Who Refused Duty Gets Hard Labor

[no_to_war_economy]

A U.S. sailor was sentenced to three months of hard labor Thursday for refusing to ship out for the Persian Gulf in a protest against the war in Iraq.

Pablo Paredes was also busted down from petty officer third class to seaman recruit, the lowest rank in the Navy.

Paredes' lawyer, Jeremy Warren, called the judge's lesser sentence "a stunning blow to the prosecution."

"This is an affirmation of every sailor's and military person's right to speak out and follow their conscience," he said.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050512/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/iraq_sailor_s_protest&cid=542&ncid=1473

[ClintonTyree]

1. It may be hard labor....

but at least he's alive and not abetting the bush lie. :patriot: Here's to you, Pablo!

[Cha]

4. And from me..

:patriot: Pablo Paredes!

A true Partiot!

[okieinpain]

10. yeah, and he's got all of his limbs too.

[BlueIris]

11. And probably his soul.

Let's hope he can keep that. As well as his character. Thanks, Pablo.

[da_chimperor]

2. Wait, they still can sentence you to hard labor?

Is he going to break rocks or something? :shrug:

[billyoc]

13. you betcha

we, um, *they* were still breaking rocks in the '80s. ;)

[Ready4Change]

20. Yep.

When you join the military you have LEFT CIVILIAN LIFE. You've signed away many rights civilians take for granted. In a certain, real sense, the military OWNS YOU.

Don't like that? Don't join.

[DulceDecorum]

3. SERUV

The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.
http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

[NNN0LHI]

5. Sailor Who Refused to Ship Out for Iraq Sentenced to 3 Months Hard Labor

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBEEDXEN8E.html

SAN DIEGO (AP) - A U.S. sailor was sentenced to three months of hard labor Thursday for refusing to ship out for the Persian Gulf in a protest against the war in Iraq.

Pablo Paredes was also busted down from petty officer third class to seaman recruit, the lowest rank in the Navy.

A military judge, Lt. Cmdr. Bob Klant, imposed the sentence a day after finding Paredes guilty of refusing to board the board the amphibious assault ship USS Bonhomme Richard after it received orders for the Persian Gulf in December.

The 23-year-old New Yorker said he refused to support a war he believed was illegal and immoral.

[BOSSHOG]

6. While I am in agreement with the Sailor

He can oppose the war and voice his opinions about it without placing a burden on his shipmates. They have to pick up his slack now and the loss of one Sailor on a ship can be quite a burden. His political views were not a determining factor in his courtmartial. He missed ships movement. It doesn't matter whether he overslept, or was drunk in a gutter somewhere or just forgot. Case Closed.

[NNN0LHI]

7. Bullshit. He believes the war was illegal and immoral, and I agree with him

He stood up for what he believed in and took the consequences. Can't say that about too many people. He is more of a hero and a better man than someone who goes over their and kills people who never intended on harming our country or its people. I would have done the same thing.

Don

[Ready4Change]

8. Then he shouldn't have signed up with the military in the first place.

People don't comprehend that when you sign up for military service you agree to become a cog in a machine. You don't get to pick and choose what conflict to participate in or not. (Unless you manage to rise to the highest of ranks, and even then you still are supposed to serve the nations needs.)

[NNN0LHI]

9. Wrong

I would join the military and fight in the defense of my country without hesitation. No questions asked. But when I was told to go kill people not to defend my country, but so American corporations could steal that countries oil I would then tell them to go fuck themselves. That is exactly what this sailor did.

Don

[Catrina]

12. But if you are asked to follow an illegal

order, such as support or fight in an illegal war, you are obligated to refuse to do so. That's what Pablo Paredes did, imo.

When George Bush went AWOL, from his comfortable position in the TANG, guaranteeing he wouldn't have to fight in a war he supported, he got an honorable discharge. So much for military rules and regulations.

Another soldier seeking CO status, Sgt Kevin Benderman's trial was postponed and the judge threw out what he said was a 'biased' report from the prosecution.



Sergeant Kevin Benderman was to face a general court-martial today on charges of desertion and missing movement. But the judge, Colonel Stephen Henley, ruled yesterday that the investigating officer who recommended trying him had compromised her impartiality in an email to a military prosecutor..........

editing to say this was in response to post #8 but I do not know how to correct it yet.
http://www.wsav.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSAV/MGArticle/

[Ready4Change]

18. Then please don't join the military.

Your reasoning is precisely why I haven't joined. I recognize that joining commits me to fight where ever they send me, and I'm not comfortable with that.

But I also recognize that, had I signed up, there'd be hell to pay if I then refused to fight. The military isn't a social club, to join and leave at will. It's a committment. And once in, you must be in all the way, because someone is counting on you to guard their back.

[roughandtumble]

23. I would join the military but....

Excuses, excuses. I have always admired your posts, NNNOLHI. It's something I look forward to. It's an insight to you as a person. I like it.

But you have never served I bet. I bet you have never picked up a weapon in anger. Sometimes violence IS justified. But not in this case: the repugs are wrong on this one. Big Time. But when push comes to shove, it's pleasant to know some Dems are on the uniformed team to keep shit from getting out of hand. We need to fight these bastards everywhere. EVERYWHERE.

The boy is a coward or stupid. I mean, he is a sailor. He has NO chance of being 'hurt'. Not every one in the service has drunk the kool-aid. NOT acting is not an option. You sound as though he signed up after 911.

Some times serving means SAVING lives. That is an honor and a duty too.

[roughandtumble]

26. "Get better tactics. Don't wuss around.

"Get better tactics. Don't wuss around. And quit saying, 'They're so mean and vicious.' They only do it because it works. When they don't do it anymore, we can go back to a more civilized way of doing business."

-- Bill Clinton, quoted by the New York Daily News, on what Democrats need to do to beat Republicans.

[NNN0LHI]

27. I have said on this board many times I have not served. So it is no secret

But I am not a pacifist by a long shot either. When you say "We need to fight these bastards everywhere", I wonder what you mean by that. Are you implying that we need to fight the Iraqis who have never threatened or attacked America no matter where they are ever at? Explain to me why we need to fight them at all. What is the purpose of that. Just to show the Iraqis that the US is the baddest ass on the block or something? What do we gain from that? I don't see the gain. Perhaps I lost something in the translation. Please explain what we gain.

Don

[ridgerunner]

28. I did serve, in the Navy as a matter of fact

and what are you trying to say here? That sailors are either cowards or stupid? That's what your post seems to imply.

As far as your comment that he has "NO chance of being 'hurt'", that's rather asinine. Sailors die all the time, it just doesn't make the news. Also, I had to mention this last night to someone, did you forget about the USS Cole?

[Joey Liberal]

34. I respect Swabbies

The life of an enlisted sailor probably sucks. But they have it better than the Soldier or Marine on the ground. Sailors do fight and die. But at this time, its mostly Army and Marine grunts getting killed and injured. It's Vietnam all over again, thanks to AWOL Bush.
Sailors are far from being cowards or stupid. They are smart and brave. I've seen them in bar fights:)............I grew up in a Navy town.

[lister666]

58. At least since Vietnam.....

..the huge majority of US *combat* deaths have been among soldiers
(officer and enlisted),Marines (ditto) and Navy and Air Force
aviators.And I'll wager that most of thge fatalities among Navy
enlisted personnel were Navy Corpsmen serving with Marines.

Check the stats here for Vietnam http://thewall-usa.com/stats/

[ridgerunner]

60. Ships are dangerous places to be

It is true that naval warfare has decreased with the advancement of aviation techology, but that doesn't mean people don't die onboard ships.

My ship was conducting an exercise in the Atlantic. We had come up to a fuel ship to resupply. If you've never seen a fuel transfer at sea, it's a rather dangerous thing because the ships have to get pretty close and connect lines to one another.

Well, during the transfer we had an emergency breakaway, which means something went seriously wrong and the ships needed to get some space between them. Now I didn't see this, but a fellow in my division did and it shook him up pretty bad. A fellow on the working party that was handling the lines got his foot trapped in one of the lines when the ships broke away. He was dragged through a chock. If you've never seen a chock, they aren't very big. They didn't recover his body and if they had they wouldn't have found much.

Things like this don't make the news, but they happen all time. People fall overboard. They get electocuted. They get mangled. Working aboard a Navy ship is not like being on the Love Boat (unless you're on a tender), people do die, it's just civilians don't hear about it.

[kenny blankenship]

40. " I mean, he is a sailor..."

The boy is a coward or stupid. I mean, he is a sailor. He has NO chance of being 'hurt'.

You just proved he did not act out of cowardice. He may be wrong on other grounds, but his reason for doing this is not because he fears for his life or limbs.

[oneighty]

59. "He is a Sailor. He has no chance of being hurt" ?

Of course he does.

180. Ex-Sailor.

[LisaL]

15. I am sorry, but many people do not expect to be send to a war

such as this when they sign up. He might have signed up because he wanted to defend his country, not this.
:spank:

[rodeodance]

17. i agree--many are taken in by the promises, the glitter, the ads, etc. etc

--they have poor jobs-or no jobs--no money for school or can not get in.

[Ready4Change]

19. Then they are naive.

I'm not saying this doesn't happen. But, in many ways, it's like buying a used car. Sure it's awfull if you get ripped off. But that doesn't absolve you of any responsibility for watching out for yourself.

Buyer beware.

Like getting a car inspected, you should inspect yourself before joining the military. You WILL be expected to fight in any war they send you to. If you can't handle that, no one is forcing you to join.

[Lars39]

24. It also doesn't absolve this administration of abusing the troops.

[Ready4Change]

25. I agree 100% with that.

.

[reformedrepub]

53. Wrong

I served in the US Army for eight years. Not only do you have the right, but you have the responsibility to refuse to obey any illegal order. Had the soldiers at Abu Graib refused to follow an illegal order, they would not be sitting in Leavenworth today. But of course as always, the lower enlisted suffer the burden heaped on them by senior enlisted and officers, who escape punishment with a slap on the wrist.

[Ready4Change]

55. As I understand it, you are correct.

However, if one is going to act on that responsibility, then one needs to be ready and able to defend that act in a military court.

In my mind, defending a refusal to torture prisoners is quite possible.

Defending a refusal to serve on a naval vessel during a land war due to a difference of opinion about the neccessity of that War? Good luck.

And I agree with you regarding the fate of the enlisted vs higher Abu Gharib (sp?) soldiers. Stinks.

[BOSSHOG]

21. He not only stood up for what he believed in

He quit his job and violated his oath of enlistment. The military is not a democracy. I agree with him that the war is wrong but he was in violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. He wasn't punished for his political beliefs, he was punished for "Missing Ships Movement." Pretty stout offense not looked well upon by ship's company. When in uniform you can not pick your fights without consequences. Good Order and discipline is not a fancy line tossed about by hardasses, its a way of life.

[Poor Richard Lex]

14. yup

hit the nail on the head, Boss.

[LisaL]

16. How exactly is he going to oppose the war and voice

his opinion if he is going to participate in it?
He thinks this war is immoral and illegal, but he still must participate in it for the sake of his shipmates? Well, you can't very well un-kill people you do kill.
:eyes:

[BOSSHOG]

22. He is free to voice his opinions

as long as his opinions don't lead him to jeopardize the ship or the mission. If, as you say, he thinks "war" is immoral and illegal, he is in the wrong line of work. A servicemember cannot pick and choose what missions to support. He quit his job. He was punished for doing that. His punishment has nothing to do with his politics.

[Disturbed]

30. Bullshit!!!

This man stood up for his beliefs and took his punishment. He did the honorable thing. Do people that join the military think that their nation will engage in an illegal invasion and occupation? It is unfortunate that not more people do what he has done.

[chlamor]

31. Ignorance of what is just is no excuse for obeying the law

Laws are made by the powers and the reasons people "enlist" are complex. The War needs to be put on trial not Paredes and Benderman. there are higher laws and many of those are international laws that apply to all of us citizens in an illegal war.

[BOSSHOG]

36. He violated his contract

Put the war on trial. Put civilian leadership on trial. Hell, I'll testify for the prosecution. But politics had nothing to do with the Sailors conviction. He quit his job. He walked away. He burdened his bosses who were only following orders.

How should this scenario work out? Oh, you don't like the war? Okay, we'll send you home; and we won't concern ourselves about how this might effect the bodies on the ship you have chosen to desert.

I have a hard time understanding why we (This combat zone veteran at the head of the line) want to fry bush for deserting, which he did, and yet give a pass to someone who did the same thing. They both quit their jobs, the reasons they did so are irrelevant to the UCMJ.

[chlamor]

41. The Perils of Obedience

Our authoritarian CULT(ure) is sick to its core and when one stands up to say so in his/her small act of dissent then I applaud.

Contracts, jobs etc. How many have killed/died while folks were just 'doing their job' sometimes from thirty thousand feet high.

"thou shalt not kill"

I'm not a christian or a pacifist but that seems to be a creed to strive towards

I don't want to fry Bush for deserting I want to see him at the Hague for fair and thorugh trial for War Crimes with Cheney-Rummy-Wolfie and gang.

[Joey Liberal]

38. Officers can resign

So why not enlisteds? If Bush hadn't invaded Iraq, we wouldn't be having these problems within the ranks. We've had paratroopers from the 82nd Airborne (and those guys are not wimps) flee to Canada.

[Pepperbelly]

62. Actually ... as an ex-sailor ... I was pleased to ...

read this article in truthout:

-snip-

I noted that the Uniform Code of Military Justice requires that all military personnel obey lawful orders. Article 92 of the UCMJ says, "A general order or regulation is lawful unless it is contrary to the Constitution, the laws of the United States...." Both the Nuremberg Principles and the Army Field Manual create a duty to disobey unlawful orders. Article 509 of Field Manual 27-10, codifying another Nuremberg Principle, specifies that "following superior orders" is not a defense to the commission of war crimes, unless the accused "did not know and could not reasonably have been expected to know that the act ordered was unlawful."

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/051305X.shtml

[two gun sid]

67. They don't give hard labor for missing movement....

at the most 3 days bread and water. His political views did matter.

I served with several shipmates who were burdens by being onboard.

[harpo]

29. hard labor is better than killing/dying for an unjust cause!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Berserker]

39. I went in the Navy

in 69. I went to 3 schools and graduated Honor man out of my last school. I went to the fleet as a E3 and was busted down to E1 after I protested against working on war machines. I did 30 days hard labor and I protested again and was sent to a marine brig. After I was released from the brig I was givin a general discharge. Sometimes it takes a little living to understand what is really going on. No one that has not served can stand in judgment of what someone else has done that has served. I understand what he has done and he has been called a coward for doing so as was I but any man that would call me that to my face will have a problem. It takes a brave man to stand up for what he believes in and I stand with him. It's been 35 years of fighting this bullshit and now we are fighting yet another bullshit war.

[BOSSHOG]

45. I just don't understand Shipmate

I'm a retired CPO and am totally confused by your post. If you didn't want to work on "war" machines, then why did you join the Navy? I know that 69 was a piss poor time for making such decisions but what the fuck do you think the job of the Navy is? And may I ask, were you busted for "protesting" or were you busted for failing to follow orders and do your job? Big Difference. And it also takes a brave man to go forth and use those war machines. I don't think your or the other guy are cowards. But a contract is a contract. You know, all that garbage about supporting and defending and obeying orders, all that honorable garbage stuff. And I'm sure you know, there has yet to be a sea lawyer in the 230+ years of the U. S. Navy who has trick fucked the system to undo that contract. I wish you well in your future endeavors.

[Berserker]

51. Well CPO

when I went into the Navy I was young and naive like many people and as I stated It takes a little living to understand what is really going on. I thought the Fucking job of the Navy was to fight against all aggressors both foreign and domestic like my fucking oath said when I joined. I'm sure you remember that. After learning what the fuck was really going on I decided to do what I did. I am not ashamed of what I did and I still will argue the point. Fuck the contract I was mislead by the lies told to me like the recruits are now. Is it more Honorable to fulfill your contract as you put it or is it more honorable to protest something you don't believe in? I will not support nor defend something I don't believe in no matter how you try to frame it. I did not then and I do not now believe in the Viet Nam war. Talk about trick fucked thats how I think of the navy and always will. I wish you well in all your Honorable future adventures chief.

[chlamor]

32. Here is what the military judge said

21 hours since Pablo Paredes convicted at court martial Read More Please Tell Others now!

UPDATED 5/11/2005 at 7:30 PM:
After international law expert Marjorie Cohn and the prosecution debated for about 20 minutes, the military judge Lt. Cmdr. Bob Klant said,

"I believe the government just proved that any service member has reasonable cause to believe that the wars in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq were illegal"

[kenny blankenship]

35. I'd love to hear that proof in detail!

that's the most surprising thing i've heard all week --not the the recent spate of elective wars are illegal, but that a military judge said this.

[chlamor]

37. Go Here

TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT PABLO AND KEVIN AND TO SIGN AN ONLINE PETITION
IN SUPPORT OF THEIR CASES VISIT:

www.defendpablo.org
www.bendermandefense.org


"All of the politicians that want to fight a war are free to trade
places with me at any time. I will gladly go and learn war no more."
--Sgt. Kevin Benderman

"I call on everyone who reads these words, to reclaim their humanity.
Refuse, as every member of humanity should, to promote this mass
violence against innocent people."
--Pablo Paredes

[Ready4Change]

56. Zoinks!

One would think that would make headline news. I'll follow the links given. Thanks!

[Joey Liberal]

33. The Sailor is a HERO

This sailor probably had life a lot easier on a ship than the troops on the ground in Iraq. But you have to give him credit for standing up for what he believes in. He took a stand and accepted the punishment. If our armed services were truly "all vounteer", then a person should be able to vounteer out as well.

[BOSSHOG]

42. I doubt he's a hero to the shipmates

who have to pick up the slack due to his absence.

And try a six month deployment if you think things are "alot easier on a ship."

"Should be able to volunteer out as well." I think we might be better off taking the word "should" out of our vocabulary. A contract is a contract. He violated his contract. I spent 24 years in the Navy. I find nothing heroic about "missing Ship's movement" and I'm a flaming proud liberal.

HIS POLITICAL VIEWS ARE TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO HIS COURTS MARTIAL. His actions didn't say fuck you george bush, his actions said fuck you shipmates.

[Joey Liberal]

43. Soldiers have it tougher

And try a six month deployment if you think things are "alot easier on a ship."
========
I admire the Navy. I really do. But you get hot meals and a bunk. You aren't getting shot at. The grunts live a miserable life and are always in danger. The life of a mud soldier is far tougher than that of a Sailor. And that's not a slam on the Navy. It's just the truth.

[BOSSHOG]

48. I must ask Joey

Have you ever served in the Navy? The Army? The Marines? And what exactly is a Mud Soldier?

I invite you to read Dan Kurzman's Book, "A Fatal Voyage, The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis." Or maybe "A Glimpse of Hell" By Charles C. Thompson. Please take the time. I was a total team player with my fellow "other" servicemembers and each has its perks, its ups and downs, its differences and own secret handshakes but one thing we all had in common, the same contract. I swear to support and defend and obey orders, you know all that honorable garbage. That honorable garbage means something and though I have been retired almost three years I consider myself still under contract. And any political differences I may have had with civilian leadership were not strong enough for me to violate my contract TO SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION AGAINST ALL ENEMIES FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC.

[Joey Liberal]

63. Mud Soldier

Have you ever served in the Navy? The Army? The Marines? And what exactly is a Mud Soldier?
-------
I am a vereran of the U.S. Army. Mud Soldier is a term used to describe Army or Marine Corps grunts that serve in the infantry. These are the troops that live in the mud, the snow, the rain, the desert, the city.......anywhere the enemy may be. They are the ones that close with and kill the enemy, up close and personal.

[Joey Liberal]

44. And by the way....

Thank you for your 24 years of service to this country. I salute you! And I respect your opinion!

[chlamor]

47. His Actions

may have said "I can't do it. I can't capitulate to this criminal endeavor." But what do I know I am not He.

A man must live with his conscience and in good conscience he seemed unable to go to Iraq.

[BOSSHOG]

49. Not being argumentative on this Friday the 13th eve

but its all very simple. HE violated his contract. HIS conscience maybe motivated him. And HE will be punished for his actions (or non actions.) His politics had zero, zip, nada to do with the verdict. Good Order and discipline is not a slogan, its a way of life for those who go in Harm's Way.

[chlamor]

50. To be a dreamer

wouldn't it be nice if thousands did what he did?

"It is part of the general pattern of misguided
policy that our country is now geared to an arms economy which
was bred in an artificually induced psychosis of war hysteria and
nurtured upon an incessant propaganda of fear."
-General Douglas MacArthur, Speech, May 15, 1951 -

"War paralyzes your courage and deadens the spirit of true manhood.
It degrades and stupefies with the sense that you are not responsible,
that 'tis not yours to think and reason why, but to do and die,'
like the hundred thousand others doomed like yourself.
War means blind obedience, unthinking stupidity, brutish callousness,
wanton destruction, and irresponsible murder."
- Alexander Berkman

I love Friday the 13th

[Berserker]

54. OK lets drop all the John Wayne bullshit

and get to the point. He did not believe in what they wanted him to do. That is the whole point. The Navy can shove their contract. He is a great man for doing what he did and should be looked upon as such. As I said I will stand behind a patriot such as this and NEVER give up my beliefs. More men in the military should do this and maybe just maybe people would see what is really going on.

[Berserker]

52. Bullshit

chief. It says FUCK you BUSH in a big way.

[oasis]

46. Paredes reflects: "At least I can keep my arms and legs to do hard labor".

:bounce:

[Catrina]

57. The government has a contract

with the troops and with the people of the US, both the government and the troops swear to protect the Constitution of the US from both foreign and domestic enemies.

The way I see it, he is not the one who broke the contract. His contract said nothing about fighing in an illegal war, the contract was violated when George Bush lied in order to get support for this war.

Pablo Paredes is a hero, imo. Once he concluded that the war (and therefore his contract) was based on a lie, he had no choice as an honorable man, other than to refuse to take illegal orders.

I did not know the judge said the government had proven that the war was illegal, I would like to see a transcript of the hearing.

I have a feeling his shipmates, at least some of them, may agree with him. 22 other soldiers in Kevin Benderman's unit, have deserted.

Both Kevin Benderman and Pablo Paredes, did not desert, they resisted and stood their ground and did face prosecution. That takes courage, imo.

[IChing]

61. His statement to the court is here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1781369

and here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3651927

[struggle4progress]

64. kick

[chlamor]

65. Army Files Additional Charges Against Benderman

Army Files Additional Charges Against Conscientious Objector.
Benderman Court Martial Delayed

May 14, 2005

Ft. Stewart, Georgia

The court martial of Army Sgt. Kevin Benderman for refusing to deploy to Iraq with the Third Infantry Division has taken two dramatic turns before it has begun.

On Wednesday, in the no-frills courtroom here at this sprawling Army post near Savannah, Col. Stephen Henley granted a motion filed by defense attorneys for a new Article 32 hearing, setting the proceedings against Benderman back to square one. Then, as the process began anew the next day, the Army filed two new allegations against the 40 year-old sergeant that could add up to 10 more years to his sentence if he is found guilty.

Col. Henley ruled that the original Article 32 investigation, the procedure by which the Army determines if it has sufficient grounds to send a case to a General Court Martial, was flawed by a "presumption of prejudice" on the part of the officer in charge of the investigation, Lt. Col. Linda Taylor, based on a facsimile message she sent to her superior during the course of her investigation.

In granting the defense's motion for appropriate relief and dismissing Taylor's findings, Henley restarted the Army's case against Benderman with a new Article 32 hearing that began yesterday morning. But before the day was out, Army attorneys, attempting to bolster their case against Benderman, filed two specifications of larceny one for $1,947.50 in hazardous duty and family separation pay he allegedly received even though he did not go to Iraq and $975.33 of federal income taxes that are routinely waived for soldiers deployed to combat zones.

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=11745&hd=0&size=1&l=x

[AuntiBush]

66. While the "Recruiters" & "Abusers" get slaps on wrists!

What Paredes did was an act of discent: His freedom of choice was taken away.