Judge Rules United Airlines Can Terminate Employee Pension Plan

[Zenlitened]

CHICAGO (AP) --A federal bankruptcy judge in Chicago approved United Airlines' plan to terminate its employees' pension plans. His actions clear the way for the largest corporate-pension default in American history.

http://www.ksdk.com/news/business_article.aspx?storyid=79246

Edited to add link to Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8447088

Just two paragraphs right now, announcing the decision.

[Salviati]

1. Well, I'm never going to fly United again...

[wicket]

24. Jet Blue is the way to go!

n/t

[LisaM]

61. I love Jet Blue

but I don't think they take pets.

[DemoTex]

63. Great Wicket.

Support the union busters. Support the big Bu$h airline supporters. Who do think has enabled 95% of the current federal airline safety regulation? JetBlue? No fucking way. It has been the blood and sweat of my union (ALPA - Air Line Pilots Association). I have been a hard working accident investigator on the Central Air Safety Committee of ALPA. My volunteer work with the strongest aviation safety organization in the world makes your flight on ScabAir as safe as it is. Get it? The airlines care not for your safety. Fly union. Fly ALPA and APA (American).
Mac

[OldLeftieLawyer]

103. Bravo, Demo

I had a very personal interest in helping back the Machinists' Union when they took down Frank Lorenzo - and Eastern. It was worth every cent.

Union, all the way.

[wicket]

124. I'm sorry DemoTex

I didn't mean to offend you. I've actually never flown before- I had just heard that Jet Blue was very generous in their political giving to liberal causes.

[burrowowl]

160. WELL SAID, DemoTex!

BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVO!

[sarcasmo]

33. GM will be the next to use this tactic. Corporations are now the only ones

that may go Bankrupt. I have warned my father of this and am glad he has planned for his future. What a shame this Country as become.

[Vitruvius]

120. During the 1990s, companies were pulling money OUT of their pension plans;

the stock market was up, the companies claimed that the plans were "overfunded", and looted the pension plans for their workers. People warned that markets go down as well as up, and that this could lead to pension funds going bankrupt later. But the top execs went ahead, looted the pension funds, added the money to the company profits, and paid themselves big bonuses for "creating value".

Now that Big Business has Bu$h in power, the market is down, and they're defaulting. Market up, loot pension plan; market down, default.

Smart, huh? And all they needed to do it was a total lack of conscience or morals. But then, sociopathy is a preferred personality trait in top execs nowadays: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x124669


P.S: You're right -- GM could well be next to default on their pensions; like United and so many others, GM execs racked up easy profits by looting their "overfunded" pension plan in the 1990s.

By-the-way, most Fortune 500 companies have separate pension plans for their top executives. NOBODY took money out of those plans in the 1990s; those plans are in great shape today.

[Blue_Tires]

161. agreed

and i've been watching the GM situation VERY closely for the last few years...the execs are licking their chops now that the precedent has been set of simply sidestepping or ignoring union contracts...

[TahitiNut]

38. I stopped flying United over 25 years ago and never regretted it.

Thirteen consecutive flight screw-ups ... faulty seat assignments, meals, baggage, delays, etc. ... and I refused to fly them ever again. I flew nationally (for a Fortune 10 corporation) on audit projects, averaging two flights a week for over 3 years, at my peak. I obsessively got to the airport two hours before flight time to check-in, get seats, check baggage, order meals, and then unwind while people-watching and catching food and refreshment. American Airlines NEVER screwed up; not once. United was a total clusterfuck all over the U.S. I was in-and-out of O'Hare, LaGuardia, National, DFW, and LAX quite frequently, as well as smaller airports, and it seemed to make no difference. They had the surliest flight attendants and gate agents of the bunch. American Airlines staff was diligent and courteous on every flight. I also flew Northwest (Orient), U.S. Air, Delta, TWA, and Braniff ... and never had the kind of crap I got from United. (Although Northworst was pretty bad.)

[elehhhhna]

56. Hear Hear! Pay full fare for your (well behaved) child and the

flight attend.'s look at you like you're making a goat-sacrifice nboard when you seat the kids.

HoRRIBLE!!!!!

[hector459]

45. Is this judge a conservative, Republican?

That what I want to know.

[BrklynLiberal]

2. Interesting to find out who put that judge on the bench.

[LisaM]

4. Very interesting point

I wonder. Sounds like a Reagan thang to me.

[BrklynLiberal]

8. I was able to find out that he was appointed in 1987 for a 14 year

term and then he must have been reappointed.

[LiberalFighter]

48. Meaning his reappointment was in 2001

[LisaM]

62. So Reagan it was...

thanks for looking it up.

[Magic_Cookie]

9. Well we know who put 4 people on PBGC's advisory committee

May 5, 2005
PBGC Public Affairs, 202-326-4040

President Names Chair, Three Members to PBGC Advisory Committee

http://www.pbgc.gov/news/press_releases/2005/pr05_39.htm

[Coastie for Truth]

145. FPBGC Chair is James E. Neveles

<>


Temple University Musser Award Write Up:

With vision, leadership, and commitment to education reform in the Greater Philadelphia region, James E. Nevels personifies the ideal of the Musser Award for Excellence in Leadership
In 1991, Mr. Nevels founded The Swarthmore Group, an independent investment and financial advisory firm that has grown to be one of the largest minority-owned firms in the United States and among the 500 largest asset management funds in the country.

Prior to starting The Swarthmore Group, Mr. Nevels was an investment banker at Smith Barney, Harris Upham & Co., Inc. and Prudential Bache Securities, Inc. Mr. Nevels also practiced law as counsel in bond transactions with the law firm Ballard, Spahr, Andrews & Ingersoll.

His commitment to improving education for the lives of children in the GreaterPhiladelphia region is evident in his being appointed a member of the three-person Board of Control of The Chester-Upland School District in 1998 to administer the $65 million budget of this state-declared financially distressed school district and served as a gubernatorial appointee on that Board until 2001. In December 2001, the Governor of Pennsylvania appointed Mr. Nevels as chairman of the Philadelphia School Reform Commission, an enterprise having a $1.8 billion budget. The Commission oversees the turnaround of the financially distressed Philadelphia School System, the seventh largest school district in the United States.

Mr. Nevels is an honors (cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa) graduate of Bucknell University, and holds an A.B. degree in Political Science and Philosophy. In addition, he earned two advanced degrees at the University of Pennsylvania -- an M.B.A. degree from the Wharton School and a J.D. degree from the Law School. Mr. Nevels currently serves as a member of the Board of Trustees of Bucknell University and on the Board's Executive Committee, as a member of the Board of Berea College, the Board of Visitors for Temple University's Fox School of Business and Management and the Board of Overseers of the University of Pennsylvania Law School. He also is Treasurer and a member of the Board of the Association of Governing Boards of Colleges and Universities.

[Selatius]

10. Might want to look at the list of gifts this judge has received

Free vacations, trips, etc.

[IChing]

3. When will the workers rise up?

Strike, strike
Hey maybe a national strike against this government?

[napi21]

5. You're going to see all the major airlines do this now.

That's one of the big things that's made the difference between profit and loss between the newbie airlines and the legacy carriers. This judge just opened the door to this, and I bet you're going to see all the legacy carriers jumping right in!

[doodadem]

7. Delta is thinking about filing

I just saw on MSNBC that Delta is thinking about filing for bankruptcy. So yeah--here we go. Next it'll be all of these corporations that are filing or have filed--WorldCom comes to mind. Just hysterical isn't it, that they're making it easier and easier for corporations to file, and have the people at the top keep their guaranteed pensions, while they pass the Bankruptcy "Reform" bill that takes everything away from regular people who are filing due to (ahem) job loss, catastrophic medical bills, etc.
This is the kind of thing that the Dems need to be on television harping on day in, day out, ad nauseum.

[fishwax]

13. Amen! You've summed it up nicely

that's a great connection and the dems should be harping on it constantly. they are so bold and brazen, but point that kind of thing and they'll whine "class warfare." The upper class has been waging class warfare on the rest of us for years, and it's about time for working folks--and those who claim to represent them--to strike back.

[Zenlitened]

21. Yeah, really. The only proper response to "class warfare" talk is...

"Fuck right, it's class warfare!!!" :grr:

If our party doesn't stand up and loudly, proudly fight for the middle class, we deserve to fade into irrelevance.

[koopie57]

39. I think that we the workers

need to be the ones standing up and fighting. I think we should start planning for a national strike to take place on election day in 2006 and spend the day getting people to the polls, making sure that this election is run as fair as we can and intimidating anyone who wants to take this right away from any one of us for race, creed, color, etc. Hell, we have the right to carry concealed weapons, we might as well use it, (but I don't advocate violence, just we should use the few rights we have left).

[Jose Diablo]

87. I don't think we will make it to 2006

this needs action now, the corporations will have gutted virtually every pension by 2006.

The airlines are pressured by fuel costs, which Bu$h and his Texan friends, Saudi's too, have forced through the roof. Notice the obscene profits from oil companies. It appears the Justice department hasn't noticed the companies operating in collusion.

What we are seeing is a huge increase in the cost of doing business being raised across the board that will give almost all corporations the green light to file 11.

Notice to drop in GM and Ford? Thats fuel too as people are reluctant to buy Suv's and surprise, these car companies had 'management' focus on these product lines. Is anybody fooled into thinking they didn't know what was coming down the pike?

It's a smash and grab by the globalists. Theft. Racketeering by crooks.

[elehhhhna]

57. You forgot GM, Ford, Chrysler, et. al.

[Coastie for Truth]

146. Started in the Iron and Steel Industry In The 1980's

Spread through the airlines. Auto Industry is probably next.

-GM wants to kill retiree health insurance

United was a Blue Chip "widows and orphans" stock for retirement accounts - like RCA, Westinghouse, Bethlehem Steel, AT&T, USSteel, Penn-Central Railroad.

And, BushCo wants to "Privatize" ("Piratize") Social Security and put it into "Individual Stock Market Accounts."

Social Security is not an investment vehicle - it is "Social Security Social INSURANCE Vehicle" - insurance against Private Pension crashes (like United) and market crashes.

[Charles19]

131. Forget Airlines why wouldn't every business try to do this now?(n/t)

[Nite Owl]

6. How do these workers

ever make this up, especially those in or near retirement? And we get to pay for bad management. Those CEO's should have to give every penny they earned (well got not earned!) back.

[Zenlitened]

16. There's a federal pension guarantee program...

... kind of like the FDIC that insures bank deposits.

It will take up SOME of the slack. Maybe 75 cents on the dollar? 80? 50? I don't know the exact figure, but it appears it will NOT be 100 cents on the dollar.

Can you imagine? Just like that, you're robbed of money that is owed to you, as part of the compensation agreement for the work you did. Poof! It's gone.

Unbelievable. And yet the execs who've been paid lavishly right along won't feel a thing. They'll probably get bonuses at some point, for "turning the company around."

It's mind-boggling.

I could -- any one of us could -- sit in the penthouse offices and proclaim: "We're skipping out on our debts." And this after getting a taxpayer-funded handout after 9-11.

Any one of us could that. Does that mean we're all business management geniuses? No, it means the whole concept of the marketplace is a big joke. Just a joke. Capitalism at that level is a myth, nothing more. :grr:

[TahitiNut]

43. Medical retirement benefits won't be replaced.

That's where the retirees will be hit the hardest, imho.

[Trillo]

49. You mean the benefit will not be as promised to workers?

That's a hornets nest.

Perhaps the only money any of us has is what we have today. Pay me for my work today, fine employer, dear sir: in cash, 100% of today's pay.

[KoKo]

84. Pilot in place hubby get's hair cut said his pension was $90,000 he was

top pilot who is ready to retire and receive his pension. Says the Governments pension fund that United will turn the defaulted pensions over to has a Cap of $26,000 for him. IOW, he loses the difference between $90,000 and what he will now have to live on of $26,000.

How could he have planned on this? If you are promised a benefit under a contract and you base your retirement situation on what you are promised and it's cut back so drastically what is one to do?

Greenspan said folks could live on their "home equity." What if the guy lives in an apartment? What if he had kids who were sick and had to pay money for them or college costs or anything else that might have eaten away a cushion. Now he isn't going to get what he was promised and the Repugs say that's a "Good thing for America?" :eyes:

[LiberallyInclined]

94. if he's a top pilot, he's most likely still have a good chunk-

including home equity.

***THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT I THINK THAT THIS IS AT ALL RIGHT***

it SUCKS!
and this is just the beginning- the same WILL happen to other airlines, other corporations, and LOTS more people.

You want yet another good reason for a very stiff ESTATE TAX? use it to fund the pensions that have been, and yet to be stolen all across the country.

[Zorra]

71. This is how it is, and how it will be, in the dark world of Bush fascism.

Actually, it's going to get a whole lot worse. Bush is evil.

He really is.

[enlightenment]

80. Listening to NPR this afternoon,

and the reporter said the cut would be between 30 and 50% -- those that have more invested (pilots) will be hardest hit.
Had to turn it off after that, since the rhetoric switched back to how this will help the company . . .
What about the people????
Damn.

[LeahD]

18. They don't.

You can work for a company your entire adult life and end up SOL. Now all airline employees know that if their company files for bankruptcy, the same can happen to them. The threat of bankruptcy is a tool used in contract negotiations for wage and benefit concessions from employees.

[LiberalFighter]

50. All the more for unions to become more a part of the American way

Many of the skill trade unions manage their own pension funds. That means the companies can't touch it.

[0007]

166. I'd like to see the stats on folks that have been screwed out of their

pension plans in this country in the last fifty or so years.

[Megahurtz]

11. Oh boy,

the precident is set. It's all downhill from here.:hurts:

[Zenlitened]

31. I think you're right. Remember, years and years ago, when going bankrupt..

... was something shameful, a sign that a business had failed? Today bankruptcy is just another business tool, just another way to manage company finances. Look at Donald Trump -- he's nothing but a serial bankruptcy filer.

Now that bankruptcy has become a nifty way to bail on your pension obligations too... well, I fear the floodgates have been opened.

And who's going to foot the bill? Well, who footed the bill when the S&L's collapsed? Good ol' Joe and Jane Taxpayer. We were the "safety net." And if some of the world's wealthiest got a little wealthier off the debacle, well heck... that's just us being generous to a fault, isn't it? We should feel all warm and fuzzy knowing United's execs will still make millions -- MILLIONS -- of dollars this year.

:grr: They should be clapped in irons, every cent they posses should go to bailing out the pensions, and they should be cleaning up litter alongside the highways for the 5 years at least.

[Megahurtz]

46. Yep, it's all cleverly designed

via Bush & Co, to funnel up the money from the poor and middle class to the most wealthy.

Sick!:puke:

[anitar1]

72. I especially like "cleaning up litter along the highways" .

I simply do not have the words to express the anger I feel about this. I hope for the "day"to come. Karma.

[kitkatrose]

127. Someone in the other thread

suggested being sold into slavery in the Sudan. My less humane side is rather fond of that option. :evilgrin: But the thing where the govt covers some of your pension, I didn't know about that. But my aunt works for a semi-govt organization that does that, and she told me that a company has to pay into it, for the workers to get any type of compensation. No pay, no play, and workers get shat upon yet again. I hope we're not talking about the same thing, because that would REALLY suck if a company didn't pay into it.

[12345]

128. But, but ...doesn't the bankruptcy bill address that?

[raccoon]

130. RIght you are. Liked the little ikon, that says it all. nt

[Marthe48]

12. ORMET -- Chapter 11--we just lost the retiree medical benefits

My husband was supposed to get medical coverage for life ----but no -- the judge allowed ORMET to open the contract and now we have to pay almost $500.00/month plus copays, a $1000.00 deductible and 20% of hospital. Emmitt Boyle walked out of the bankruptcy with over $7 million. For running a healthy company into the ground that is some terrific reward. Too damn bad that the aluminum industry is healthier than its ever been and the bankruptcy is a big fat lie to destroy the union workers who made the profits for these conniving pieces of human waste.

When will the workers fight back? When all of us who work understand that union member or not, the corporations see us as liabilities, not assets to their company. When all of us who work understand that the work we do, the body we give, is only worth what we believe it to be worth. As long as we believe the lies that unions are bad for the individual worker,we will be treated like this.

My sympathies for the United Airlines union. Their corporate masters can go straight to hell.

[MaineDem]

20. I'm retired

Thankfully, the company is still healthy but this scares me to DEATH!!!

What really pisses me off is the fact that the corporate heads have those multimillion golden parachutes and I'm betting they don't lose those!

It's time for all the unions to join forces in this and fight back.

I will never fly United again.

[Marthe48]

28. I won't fly United

not just the unions--all workers. The only thing we have going for us is numbers. If all workers go on strike, even the court recorders, then we might be able to make a deal. Its not whether the companies can afford the benefits--corporations in other countries pay benefits and don't go bankrupt. The US is being run by a bunch of selfish greedy shortsighted meglomaniacs who get their thrills by cutting the bottom line, screwing their employees and getting their golden parachutes. I imagine they make bets with each other to see who can screw the most employees out of the most benefits. We just recycled our aluminun cans Saturday--and got .50 cents a pound--that is really high for recycled cans. Its not that the companies are healthy or not--its whether they have jerks in the leadership positions or decent human beings. ORMET has jerks, evidently so does United.

[Fire Walk With Me]

14. Think they'll let GM trash employee's benefits next?

If there's a pattern here...

[Marthe48]

23. yes--if the employees have benefits

they will lose them. I can't wait for these corporate idiots to see that without a consumer base that can afford to buy goods and services, the US economy is going to fail so fast, they won't get to the head of the breadlines. But hey, they are getting their cut and more, so why do they care?

[halobeam]

65. And isn't that what this administration wants????

Everyone fend for themselves, and the "big guys" walk/ride/fly on golden freakin' carpets, over the perdy rainbow's and into the sunset.

I hope EVERY airline walks out and makes a SHARP AND DRASTIC point to this administration, and their goons. This is ONLY unacceptable, when it is actually UNacceptable. It CALLS for a halt to this system. When will it STOP? Less people will be hurt if it's done now, than waiting ANY LONGER....

ugh.

[hatrack]

68. As long as they can get out before the roof falls in just one more quarter

Just one more dividend, just one more bonus, just as long as they're the last ones out . . . they don't give a shit.

[Jose Diablo]

83. Their plan is to burn this country to the ground

after they have looted everything of value. They do not care if nobody can buy squat, it is a smash and run operation. Then on to the next target, Europe.

This batch has done this all around the world, they are globalists. We are the current target.

[Marthe48]

100. I think you're right

reduce our world to rubble, enslave the poor and laugh --

[converted_democrat]

168. I agree to a point, but

I think Asia is next.....Members of the Carlyle group have been meeting with the heads of state. That is scary when you think about it, all of Carlyle group's money is tied up in defense stocks and Boeing is moving to India in 5 years.....

[saigon68]

108. Actually Delta will be NEXT

THEN GM and Ford.

These corporations despise the UAW

[Amy6627]

15. Does that mean that retirees just lost their pensions or does it

only apply to future retirees?

[LeahD]

86. Retirees

And, they will lose medical coverage....try getting health insurance when you're over 60 and have a pre-existing condition. If in reasonably good health, the premiums will be high.

[wishlist]

17. ABC News said Federal Pension Guaranty program is bankrupt already

I believe ABC News said that the federal pension guarantee program has a deficit of $23 billion in the red after having about $12 billion surplus just a few years ago because it has bailed out so many pension programs of bankrupt companies such as US AIR. I think that's what they said, but I was not able to pull up those numbers on internet yet. Employees stand to get much less than they were counting on in their retirement.

ABC commentator said that this is a dangerous precedent since United is the largest company so far to bail on their pension plan and might encourage many other large struggling companies to follow suit to get out of their pension obligations, leaving a huge taxpayer burden.

[Magic_Cookie]

27. All Things Considered from NPR

Zvi Bodie talks about PBGC

I heard this on the ride home today, it mentions the liability of 10 billion dollars on this deal. And how prior to this the deficit was around 23 billion & how now it could get much bigger.

Here's a link
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4647023

[GHOSTDANCER]

47. And by government, they mean you and I.

How many times do we have to bail out this industry?

[Sugarbleus]

19. KGO/Bernie Ward made a prediction

It wasn't specific to airlines but as he was discussing the abominable plan to kill Social Security...to (ahem)"Privatize it", he went on to remark on how easy it would be to just make it legal for companies to stop paying/killing pension plans.

I don't remember his exact comments verbatim but they were along the lines of Bush's "Ownership Society"...invest, invest, invest. Take your future security out of the hands of your employer (so he can make even MORE money and not be accountable to his employees) and put it in "our hands"...Wall street. :evilfrown:

On the other hand, having this happen to airline personnel NOW might make a great case for saving Social Security AND raising the income levels at which SS taxes are paid.

Just a thought...

[Andromeda]

114. If you're wealthy you don't need

Social Security benefits. My daughter-in-law's father threw away his S.S. notification and said he didn't "want the damn thing." He doesn't need the money.

I don't know why they don't raise the income levels. It makes more sense. It would be one thing that would help Social Security and secure it for the people who really need it.

The rich don't care about the middle class. The working guy and gal who struggle to make ends meet, support their kids and put food on the table have to shoulder the greater share of the burden. It's just not fair.

The rich don't pay into it and they don't need it in their retirement. It's as if the poor and the middle class exist to serve their selfish greedy needs.

[Sugarbleus]

164. Couldn't have said it better....

If I had paid into the SS all of my working life and then "hit the jackpot" in terms of wealth/income, I would not apply for SS at the end of my working life either; but that's just me. The father-in-law did a noble thing.

However, it still seems only right and fair that folks making over 80K (and no matter where they've worked--civil service etc) ought to be paying into the system regardless of how their finances turn out at the end of their working years. I have no problem with wealthy people collecting their fair share of SS at the end of their careers. But if the wealthier among us choose not to accept their due payments from it when their turn comes, then good on 'em.

The way the whole thing is set up is unfair, just as you said.

I wonder what those pensioners from the airline are going to do about their retirement now... so sad, so unjust.

[Nothing Without Hope]

22. But of course if you default on your PERSONAL finances, the new law

means the judge will rule against you.

[woosh]

25. oh great, now what am I going to do with all my miles?

[Selatius]

26. Chicago courts are unreliable at best

I wouldn't trust them.

If you want, go ahead and google Chicago US District Judge Blanche Manning, and also look up Judge John W. Darrah. Some of the information you will find on these Chicago judges is quite interesting...

[AngryAmish]

138. I know Judge Darrah personally

He is a good man and I would prefer that you would not slander him.

[Selatius]

162. Might want to look into his behavior in Corr v. Pepsico, Inc.

[AngryAmish]

167. Do you realize that the guy involved in that case is a lunatic?

He has a local access show. He is a loon.

This is why people are reluctant to get into public life.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

29. The next time I hear some corporate apologist go on

about worker loyalty and working peoples values I'm gonna toss my cookies........ what's to stop any corporation from doing the same thing?

[Daphne08]

30. I'll NEVER forgive Reagan for firing the ATC workers in 1981

That was the death knell for unions!

[LeahD]

40. Add Frank Lorenzo to the list....corporate raider, union buster,

SCUMBAG!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

105. And the head of the ATC knew it

I was in the airline business at the time, and I watched that unfold with such horror. I was convinced then, and I am convinced now, that the guy who was heading up the ATC was 'way out of his league in those dealings, and he never, never should have called Reagan's bluff.

It was just the opening they needed to start busting unions. After all, there had been an airline strike at Continental only eight months earlier, and the patience with unions was wearing thin, in the face of deregulation.

Lorenzo walked right through that door, and I hope that fucking murderer is rotting daily.

[LeahD]

110. At least he was black-balled from the airline industry.

Where is he now? Oh yes, fly-fishing in Montana.

[seafan]

32. Nominated. n/t

[cliss]

34. Here we go, kids.

Now, by doing this United will create a mad dash for other companies to follow suit. Trust me, this is a case of getting rewarded for walking away from your obligations.

This is the first in a long line of "dumps". Companies will now dump their unfunded pension plans. Companies with funded pension plans will try to renege on them.

[Gin]

35. what the hell... we bailed them out after 9-11 and we will bail them

out again...good old stupid tax payer...shrub is winning all kinds of victories as he dismantles the country.

[doodadem]

37. Bush has set the example here!

Bush took the surplus he inherited (including pensions/Social Security), and used it for tax cuts to the rich and to wage war. Companies are using their employees pensions the same way to bail their asses out. Neither companies, or governments, should be allowed to spend money that DOES NOT BELONG TO THEM!!!

[MaineDem]

36. Related story - Delta Air struggle raises bankruptcy fear

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Delta Air Lines Inc. on Tuesday said it won't generate enough cash to meet its needs this year, raising new alarms the airline could have to file for bankruptcy in the next few months.

In a quarterly filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission, Delta also said it expects a "substantial" loss for the remainder of 2005 as it struggles with record-high fuel prices, low air fares and other cost pressures.

"Unless they sell at least one of their regional carriers, they will be forced to file for bankruptcy within the next six months," Standard & Poor's analyst Jim Corridore said. "And if they did sell a regional carrier, it still wouldn't change their overall situation. It would just buy them more time out of bankruptcy court."

Shares of Delta, which issued a similar warning in March, fell 9 percent in early-afternoon trading on the New York Stock Exchange.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=businessNews&storyID=2005-05-10T203157Z_01_N10646068_RTRIDST_0_BUSINESS-AIRLINES-DELTA-DC.XML

All this bad airlines news reminds me of the days before 9/11/01. Their stocks were falling...they were talking about bankruptcy. They needed a shot in the arm to stay afloat. Gee, look what happened then.

[LeahD]

41. Of course, United's CEO has a guaranteed pension. n/t

[iamjoy]

156. Do We Know This For A Fact

Do we know for sure that the company executives (past, present and future) get to keep their pension, but everyone else (including the taxpayer) is screwed?

Please provide source for answer.

[LeahD]

158. CEO Tilton's Pension

On ABC News, May 10, it was stated that UAL's CEO, Tilton, had a guaranteed pension. Link to the video on ABC web site re UAL didn't open for me.

Here's another link about Tilton's pension trust:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:IkNl3xCyCtAJ:www.unitedafa.org/res/b/n/2004/20041208_afa.asp+tilton+ceo+ual+pension+trust&hl=en



August 19, 2004 - Tilton Compensation Scandal Uncovered
News reports had stated that Tilton refused to take a “scheduled raise” to $845,500 and instead kept his salary at a mere $712,500 – not to mention the employment contract which includes:

$1.5 million in stock payments,
$3 million “signing bonus,” and
$4.5 million pension trust.

[Cha]

42. My heart goes out to the United

employees who lose their pensions..some life long, no doubt.

This is good to know because I will not consider flying United anymore.

[BadGimp]

44. another show has droped

an economic clamity is not far off..

[CrispyQ]

150. Love that graphic!

However, you need a little Boosh flag in your pile of poo. ;-)

[gizmo1979]

51. This is war

everyone with a company pension should be afraid be very afraid.We really need those employees to strike,like right now.First it's pensions,next health insurance,etc etc etc.If regular Joe isn't suppose to eliminate debt,why should a corp?You made your promise now keep it.If Regular Joe loses his pension you lose your company.How much did the corp leadership make last year in a losing company?Nuf said!

[Imagevision]

52. This is why all the hoopla about Bush future judge appointee's's

[cureautismnow]

53. This Judge Needs to Have HIS Pension Plan Terminated...

... by another "activist" judge. :mad:

[jazzjunkysue]

54. Wake up, Sheeples. You be toast. That's a cold, Texan "bye, y'all" to ya.

They take all the jobs overseas, kill wellfare, kill medicaid, and now, kill your pension. You can't declare bankruptcy and your prescription drugs cost you half your mortgage payment each month.

Yep. Voting against your best interests. Congratulations. You really showed those hateful libruls, voting for the Chimperor. You really showed us.

Now, you'll want us to save your buts.

[natrat]

81. survival of the fittest

americans have evolved into morons and maybe this is just the way it is

[jazzjunkysue]

149. Le't hope they all get burned enough to wake up in time for 06 or 08.

[Trajan]

55. Im gonna fuckin PUKE ...

[Magic_Cookie]

58. Live Vote on MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7808455/

[Strawman]

59. They should get the corporate death penalty or something

Sickening. The guilty executives' assets should be seized and they should be barred from ever being an officer of any company again.

Remember who did this to you, people. It wasn't liberals. It wasn't gays. It wasn't Arabs or even the French. Rich ass Republican motherfuckers did this shit to you. Again. They did this deal, went out for a big fat juicy $100 steak, jetted home to their mansions, and jumped into the hot tub. Remember that when you have to go back into the workforce at age 75 and get a job asking "would you like some freedom fries with that?" The fog of right-wing bullshit is beginning to clear isn't it?

[Marthe48]

66. Well said!!!!

[llmart]

118. Best post on this thread!

It's exactly how I feel. The dumbass idiots who vote Republican and think they're looking out for the little guy are the ones to blame. I do believe they're so stupid that they can't even see that they're being screwed over by the Republicans.

[tjdee]

60. Will the EXECUTIVES be having their golden parachutes revoked?

I imagine not.

Makes me laugh when rich people bitch and moan about how they have to pay so many taxes and waaaaah waaaah waaaaaah. I bet the corporate officers are out playing golf this weekend without a care in the world.

[Deja Q]

74. But that's their job.

To play golf.

It's called "networking".

A pity of more of them aren't bad players; missing the holes but hitting each other in the 'nads with their balls.

It'd help keep the human population under control, too. Have your executive spayed or neutered...

[Vitruvius]

119. Most Fortune 500 companies have SEPARATE pension plans for top execs

and those pension plans NEVER go bankrupt. Ever.

And that doesn't count all the "deferred compensation" these execs receive after retirement -- which comes directly from company funds and not from any pension plan.

I'm beginning to understand why when there's a revolution, the ruling class often gets their heads chopped off.

[Alpharetta]

64. That really sucks. Ownership society is a scam.

Ownership society? The employees of United never had a chance. Every time they bailed out their employer, they got conned into believing they would have some pull in the boardroom.

I don't know how any of them will suppress rage the next time they're interviewing for a job and the interviewer lists the pension and retiree benefits. I'd puke.

[CrispyQ]

151. Republican Ownership Socitey = They Own You!

I'm so angry over this I could do physical harm to those who made this decision. At the very least, I hope they choke to death on their dinner in front of their families.

[depakid]

67. How do you spell bankruptcy abuse

C-H-A-P-T-E-R 11

[WillyT]

69. Ok... I'm Confused... Isn't United Employee Owned ???

And THEY are gonna cut pensioners out???

:wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf:

I'll never fly 'em again. Never!

I want my :fuckyou: emoticon back, dammit!@!!87%$&$^#&%$@#^

sigh...

[tom_paine]

70. The beginning of the end for Worker Pensions

Naturally, it was a corrupt Bushevik "judge" (which is like being a Nazi "judge" in that you aren't a judge at all but an extension of THE PARTY and nothing more) who rendered this abomination.

Now that one has done it, they ALL will.

[Deja Q]

73. The domino effect... and with dominoes the size of redwoods...

Have the judges even bothered to look at the executive pay and ground that also?

[hollowdweller]

75. SS is going to be MORE needed not LESS in the future

So many people are gonna end up getting screwed on their pensions.

[UpInArms]

76. Judge says govt. can take over United pensions - report (bend over time)

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/newsfinder/pulseone.asp?dateid=38482.7947620486-835218072&siteID=mktw&scid=0&doctype=806&property=symb&value=&categories=&

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- The U.S. government's pension agency can take over United Airlines' (UALAQ) defined-benefit retirement plans, a bankruptcy judge ruled on Tuesday, according to Dow Jones Newswires. The decision, which puts the airline's flight attendants on strike footing, could pave the way for the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.'s biggest retirement plan takeover yet.

...very short newsblurb...

[democracyindanger]

77. Awesome. WE get to pay for United CEO's blundering.

Incompetent, unaccountable bastards.

[cap]

79. It's not just United... all the rest of the airlines are going to file

bankruptcy as well....

They all are doing it just to shuffle off the pension benefits.

How about a govt sponsored pension and health care system for all? The corporations wont do it.

[merwin]

78. So, we can't fund social security, but we can fund United's pensions?

[Rabrrrrrr]

125. Good observation!

"We feel bad asking people to fund social security, but we don't mind at all just taking their money to fund someone else's pension".

[cyr330]

82. Yeah

I can assure you that the demolition of the pension fund won't affect the pilots. It will just destroy the flight attendants, mechanics, and others. Pilots are at the top of the pecking order just like MD's in hospitals, so they'll be receiving all the analingus from the airline.

[LeahD]

88. You are so wrong. They lose a greater percentage.

I think the maximum they can get now is $29,000/yr. Also consider....a pilot's position and earnings are based on seniority. For that reason, after pilots have spent quite a few years at one company, they can't think about jumping ship and going to another airline....unless they want to start at the bottom of the seniority list with much lower pay. Put 10 years in with a company, and you're basically locked in and along for the ride.

[cyr330]

91. ok

I'll certainly take your word for it. . . I was just making an assumption based on my job in the healthcare industry!

[LeahD]

96. I'm sure we'll all hear the details in the days ahead.

Now, can we count on fair and accurate reporting by our media?

[Magic_Cookie]

85. Bethlehem Steel hit clost to home with me

My Grandparents were affected by that move just a few short years ago. The health care costs have now taken over any of the pittance of a pension they were getting. The first few paragraphs of this older article sums it up better than I could: http://www.globalaging.org/pension/us/private/net.htm

Bottom line is that 'we' make decisions during our 'best working years of our lives' on promises that now, apparently, mean nothing. I feel for every worker that has already gone through this, for the ones that are currently going through this, and yes... for the ones that will be going through this in the not so distant future.
It's sickening to know that promises can be made to workers, but then taken away without much more than a slap on the hand, if that. It should NOT be acceptable!
Next time you make a career move based on your 'benefits' you better think twice!

Okay, done with rant, thanks for reading :)

[Magic_Cookie]

89. Angry United Workers Threaten Strikes As Early As Wednesday

May 10, 2005 9:40 pm US/Central
CHICAGO (CBS 2) A legal victory for United Airlines could lead to some major turbulence for passengers and the airline in the days ahead. A federal bankruptcy judge in Chicago approved United’s plan to dump employee pension plans. Angry workers are now making threats that could affect your next flight! CBS 2 aviation expert Jim Tilmon reports on the pension battle and the impact for the airline and the public.


http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/local_story_130224659.html

[LeahD]

95. "It could affect your next flight"

What?!!!! Retirees are losing their company pensions and health care coverage and will be at the mercy of the PBGC, and they're spinning the story...that your next flight could be affected?!! Will the coverage be biased in the days ahead against the employees? I don't like the choice of words here...."Angry workers are now making threats..."

And you wouldn't be angry Mr. Tilmon???!!!!

[Jose Diablo]

97. OK, this is it

Combine the antiwar, antibu$h, all the dem activists to support United strikers and try to balloon this out to all workers. Their angry enough now. Scared and angry.

I don't think any union will back down on this deal, especially the other airline employees.

You want a national general strike, here's our chance. There has now been a big enough stink with enough issues that I doubt that even the 'old' school repubs can deny what Bu$h has been up to.

This can unite the people, bring populism back online and move the dem party to the left and put the Dem party back in the drivers seat.

Say you want revolution? Here it is. Next stop, socialism. Even Bubba will join in this. He's hot too. He's been buying gas, paying medical bills, getting ripped-off, and Bu$h is ineffective as a leader, anything he says now will only make it worse for the reicht wing.

You know, Bu$h was right. He is a uniter, but not like his supporters wanted.

[nittygritty]

102. .

[TNOE]

132. You are so right

it is going to take a massive strike, demonstration - and a whole lot of pissed off people to change this trend. How in the hell are the "taxpayers" going to pay for ALL these pensions going belly up??

I just hope now people are pissed off enough to finally take to the streets in mass!

[RobinA]

143. Not Sure

if I'm ready to support United strikers or not. Aside from the taxpayer issue, which isn't a United issue, who actually stands to lose from this? What does your income actually have to be to wind up with over $29,000 a year in pension? I know several pilots who are staunch conservatives whose basic economic philosophy of life is "I work for my money and if you can't make enough to support yourself, there's no reason why I should have to pay my hard earned dollars in taxes to help you, or any other societal program, out."

One of them has seen this pension thing coming for at least a year now, crying about not getting the huge pension he was expecting and having to settle for $29,000. Working, I make slightly more than $29,000. I work just as hard as he does. I don't begrudge him his high salary, it's what the market will pay, but spare me the sobbing when events turn bad, which is what events have done for many people less well-paid than him, whom he resents paying tax dollars to help out. In fact, I may have to ask him, if this happens to his airline, whether he will decline the Pension Guaranty money, funded as it is by the tax dollars he never misses and opportunity to complain about paying.

Overall, however, I do agree that this is a horrible thing. I'm just not going to shed a lot of tears when well-paid Rush lovers find themselves on the wrong side of an economic fiasco for a change.

[Jose Diablo]

163. You post brings several interesting concepts to the table

Oftentimes when a group of people go into battle there are those that may hold back. And the reasons they hold back have all the trappings of logic and reason.

For example:

"What does your income actually have to be to wind up with over $29,000 a year in pension?"

This little chestnut is a typical 'lets separate' the participants response. At its core is the idea that you can not support the others in the battle, because you believe they do not have a legitimate complaint. That they are actually better off than yourself and they should just sit down and STFU. And seeing how they really don't have it bad, you can not "support United strikers.

OK, thats fine, but who the fuck are you then? Do you command the adulation of thousands of followers or are you just another voice whimpering that 'there is nothing we can do, besides the government will take care of their pensions with its Pension Guaranty money'.

I have seen this sort of response dozens of times, generally from someone that sits pretty much alone, then on to cross a line so they can profit while everyone else makes the sacrifice. In truth, I never trust my back to anyone that attempts to separate participants on 'my side' of a battle in this manner. And believe me, anyone that is against the raiding of a pension fund and stands when needed, is on my side.

Onward:

"Overall, however, I do agree that this is a horrible thing. I'm just not going to shed a lot of tears when well-paid Rush lovers find themselves on the wrong side of an economic fiasco for a change."

Wha hoa, what do we have here? How do we get those beneficiaries in this pension fund into Rush lovers. This is much the same as the reason as above. Do the people that work for the airlines all love Rush? I think I have heard this form of statement many times here. The form closely resembles a effort to divide a camp into many parts, it amplifies difference, like region, or religion or lack of, whites/ blacks, sexual preference, well I think you get my drift here. But tossing in a name like Rush, it sort of hides the underlaying idea, and that idea is to separate people from one another. And of course, they got just what they deserve, right? Serves them right, the damn Rush lovers.

I am gonna tell you truth here. I do not want you in any fight I may have. I don't think you got the sand and you'll just get in the way. So the problem is solved. No need for your support.

[Coastie for Truth]

170. This is the old "Divide and Conquer"

just like GOP "Wedge Issues."

The response to "Wedge Issues" is that of Pastor Martin Niemoller.

"When the Nazis came for the communists, I did not speak out because I was not a communist.

When they came for the trade unionists, I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Catholics, I did not speak out because I was a not a Catholic.

When they came for the Jews, I did not speak out because I was a not a Jew.

Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me."

and as Benjamin Franklin said

"We must hang together,
or surely we will hang separately.

If they divide us -- they have won!

There comes a point where we must draw our line in the sand.

[kath]

99. From the article posted by MagicCookie:

Greg Davidowitch of the Flight Attendants Association said, “We have worked longer, we have worked harder for less money, we have dedicated ourselves time and time and time again to a successful reorganization, despite the efforts of the liars, thugs and thieves who are in control of this corporation today."

Sara Nelson Della Cruz said, “We have come to the table with them, we have presented them with a plan to save the pension plans, to make up for the funding shortfall and keep the pension plan intact, and they want nothing to do with it."



"liars, thugs and thieves" -- he's got that right!

[RobinA]

144. Once Again

My feeling that one should never, NEVER agree to any kind of wage or benefit giveback is confirmed. If it does manage to bail the company out of the current crisis, it just prolongs the agony. How many times have these people given back?

[maxrandb]

122. Want to Guess How Long

it will be until * orders them back to work because of "National Security"?!

Yeah, unions are the really big problem folks. Those nasty evil unions are killing this country. :sarcasm:

I saw on the news that the CEO of United made 1.2 MILLION last year. Oh, and he's been with the company a little less than 2 years and has a GUARANTEED pension of 4.5 Million.

[kath]

90. It's time, people. Time to march on the Capital with pitchforks and

torches.

[IndianaGreen]

92. Republicans don't believe in pensions!

GOP opposes Social Security as it does employee pension plans which they feel limits the profit line of businesses.

United is not the first corporation to renege on pensions. Remember ENRON?

Bush is dragging America into 19th century capitalism.

[Sgent]

98. For any of you who might be union members

This is the reason to require that all pensions be gaurenteed by a AA rated or higher insurance agency or bank. It might cost a little on the pension amount, but will be worth it -- you don't know where your company will be in 50 years.

[Rex]

93. They just worked for it all their lives - fuck'em

That's how business is done in Repukeland; screwing hard workers and trying to steal social security and vet benefits. And the mouthbreeders still vote for em! Fuck'em!

[Jose Diablo]

101. Rex, it's mouthbreathers, not breeders.

Besides, never insult a potential ally. Especially if you are walking a picket line. LOL

Edit: we want Bubba on our side in this.

[Rex]

153. No, in my book they are mouthbreeders

It just sounds more...unevolved IMO.
:evilgrin:

[Magic_Cookie]

104. Just emailed all my Reps etc regarding this

Let's see what replies I get. The basics of my inquiry:

I am curious as to your opinion on the recent ruling regarding United Airlines & the Pension funds.
How do you feel about the future of American worker pensions? What can a worker believe, if not the promises made to them during the best working years of their lives?
Thank you for your time.

If you too think this is wrong, then let them know! It only takes a few minutes!

[LeahD]

107. American workers are toast!

The USA is on the downswing. It's all about how cheap you can get goods or services...the WalMart-izition of Americe. Get used to it.

[LeahD]

112. And, thank your for your insight. n/t

[Kool Kitty]

106. But, don't tell me-

the executives all got their huge bonuses though, didn't they? When are the working people in this country going to wake up? What is it going to take?

[LeahD]

109. Going to take a true economic crash...

until then, it's each man on his own.

[saigon68]

111. Its about Gays, Guns and God

The sheep will always vote repuke because of these issues and similar ignorant reasons Rove and his Criminals think up.

[LeahD]

113. Won't the sheeple wake from their slumber some day?

[raccoon]

133. My guess is they will

after everything for the average American has fallen apart.

In other words, when it's too late.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a miracle will happen and they'll wake up before that.

[KamaAina]

155. New synonym for sheeple: "oblivio-trons"

Major props to BiggJawn for this one!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3636905&mesg_id=3637065

"Oblivio-trons". Kind of has that sci-fi B-movie feel to it. "Atack of the Oblivio-trons". "Night of the Living Oblivio-trons". And so on...

[blondeatlast]

137. Read this, spread it: Management Must Be Replaced for Survival of UAL

http://www.unitedafa.org/mec/president/ltrs/details.asp?ID=125

This is the EMPLOYEES calling for it.

This is gonna breakk BIG, I just feel it.

[Puglover]

115. I wish ALL airline employees

would walk for a few weeks. And let the execs p/up the pieces. I can't believe what a dangerous precedence this sets.

[phasev]

116. Those damn liberal judges n/t

[ticapnews]

117. At least the gays can't get married...

Isn't that all that really matters here, people?

:sarcasm:

:mad: :puke:
:mad: :puke:

It's too bad more sheep than people vote in elections...

[ticapnews]

121. How high will the stock climb today based on this great news?

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=UALAQ.OB

A stock that traded at over $100/share in 1997 is now less than a dollar. And still these corporate criminals rake in the cash.

http://www.unitedafa.org/res/b/n/2005/exec_comp_2004.asp

Since 2002, president Glenn F. Tilton has earned stolen over $5.3 million in cash. He has also received an addition $5.9 million in other forms of compensation for a total compensation package of $11,274,840.

Considering that United is about to file bankruptcy (the very definition of failure) I believe I could have done just as good a job as he did, at a fraction of the cost. :)

I also believe any judge worth a damn would order him to pay back a considerable portion of his stolen booty to help offset the cost to taxpayers in footing the bill for his incompetence. Why is it that only the people who run fly the company into the ground make any money in the end? If you make a mess you should have to clean it up. Anyone remember the idea of "accountability" Governor Bush was so fond of before he became President Bush?

Maybe there once was a shining city on a hill, but that light went out about five years ago... :(

[ticapnews]

157. UALAQ: +4.21% today on trading volume 10 times higher than Weds.

It had been up over 6%. Perhaps investors got frightening by the pending C.H.A.O.S?

Still trading under a dollar. So there's still room for it to drop, if anyone wants to short it :)

[Flammable Materials]

123. PULL YOURSELF UP BY YOUR BOOTSTRAPS, LIKE THE REST OF US HAVE TO.

My last flight to/from Amsterdam was on United.

Never again.

[Rabrrrrrr]

126. Fucking ACTIVIST JUDGES LEGISLATING FROM THE BENCH!!

This is fucking CRIMINAL!

And all the more reason for us young people to just assume that whatever the government or our company's say, WE MUST PROVIDE FOR OUR OWN RETIREMENT or we WILL be fucked when we get old.

I have no faith that any guarantee of a pension, social security, or medicare/medicaid will be in existence for me. I'm taking all responsibility for my future in my own hands. Thankfully, I'm in a position that I can. Not everyone is.

[harpo]

129. Executive Compensation...numbers/link

http://library.corporate-ir.net/library/83/836/83680/items/147623/UALCORPDE10K.pdf

Click on Item 11.

You know with all the money they can't seem to make...seems to be that giving these folks all this money is ludicrous.

Tilton - salary of 756,832 w/ bonus of 366,393
Hacker - salary of 582,000 w/ bonus of 150,413
Brace - salary of 514,000 w/ bonus of 173,403
McDonald - salary of 525,998 w/ bonus of 177,602
Tague - salary of 541,330 w/ bonus of 444,969

total between the 5 - 4,232,940
net loss for 04 - 15.25 million dollars

[Zenlitened]

135. "But we have to pay well to attract top talent."

That's the bleating response to anyone who criticizes exec pay.

I ask: How much talent does it take to skip out on your debts? How much talent does it take to accept huge government handouts? How much talent does it take to drive a company into bankruptcy?

The whole system is a big lie. This is not about capitalism, not about the competetive marketplace. It's an executive aristocracy, plain and simple. They plunder in good times and bad, they prosper in up markets and down. And we workingstiffs get played for suckers every time.

[blondeatlast]

134. BREAKING: Planned "chaos" strikes by flight attendants.

Random no-shows, calling in.

Just heard on the radio, byline AP.

Googled so far for naught, will keep trying.

Edit: Found one, 4 hrs ago:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-fin-united11.html

After the hearing, United flight attendants passed out green fliers warning that "C.H.A.O.S. is coming" -- referring to "Create Havoc Around Our System" -- the Association of Flight Attendants' tactic of surprise, intermittent strikes. The mechanics' and ground workers' unions are also considering a strike.

[wicket]

154. Hoo boy, this is going to get good!

:kick:

[BoogDoc7]

136. Hmmm...

Okay, this post may cheese some people, it may make some people a little less concerned, I dunno.

Anyway, there's a bunch of things that I'm thinking about along these lines.

First, I'm for good, honest business practices. I DON'T like the current seeming trend of CEO's getting off with cool change while sending their company into bankruptcies and messing over employees in the bargain. I do think that there is an improper trend of corporate heads being paid too high in relation to employees in some large companies.

Now, that being said, I don't think it should be the government business in regulating wages or pensions, other than maintaining a solid minimum wage that is fair to BOTH business and the employee. I do wonder if there should be a penalty or something for those heads who do allow bankruptcies to happen to sizable corporations with large amounts of assets.

I know that the airplane companies are in trouble, and I honestly believe that they have undergone FAR too many government bailouts. Bad business is bad business, and if they can't afford to keep their planes in the air, then why should my tax money go to bail them out?

On another note, my investments and my retirement should be my own responsibility. I know that it's an oversimplification to a degree, but company pensions and such are tied to the fate of a business. If a business begins to slow down or go under, why should employees expect to have some sort of right to a pension or a retirement tied to that company?

Just a few thoughts, wondering what I'll stir up...

[NNN0LHI]

139. What about people who retire when a business is booming?

They worked their asses off for 30+ years and worked for less money in exchange for a pension during their retirement. And then some fools take over and the company and drive it into the ground after they retire. You think they are not entitled to what was promised to them before they retired?

Don

[0007]

165. That pension money belongs to the employee not the company.

The company made a promise to give a retirement package as part of employment. The pension plan should be a separate entity and have nothing to do with bankruptcy. Check out Swiss Air when they went bankrupt. Not one single person lost their pension.

The laws in the U.S. are made to protect the rich and big corporations and to screw the little guy.

[NNN0LHI]

169. Why can't you answer my above question pal?

Did you come here just to "stir up" shit and then you run off and hide? Thats typical of some Republicans I know. Did you momentarily get lost and post on the wrong board?

Don

[antigop]

140. If you are covered by a defined benefit pension plan -- please read

I posted this under the stock market thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1461994&mesg_id=1462312&page=

Your pension may be under attack as well.

[JRob]

141. ALL UNIONS NEED TO ACT NOW!!!!

In light of this decision, Chaney's win yesterday and other corporate atrocities against the working class while our government squanders hundreds of billions (of our money) on an illegal war and corporate give-aways WE NEED TO ACT NOW! That or accept the fact that life in this country is going to be very different and that we will be made increasing insignificant.

While we talk, they're acting. They say one thing and do the opposite. Ever time we are outraged over the magnitude of their actions that action is belittled by the next one.

While we still have the ability, strikes and slow-downs should be staged in protest to stem the arrogance of these corporations and our government. Hurting them in their pocketbooks is the only language they'll understand. I fear that without action now the damage will be irreversible.


http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/local_story_130224659.html

excerpt

"Airline analyst Brad Bartholomew said, “For employees that are losing their pension this is a horrible event. It's a life-changing event and it's promises that have been made to them for 10, 20, 30 years that are now being broken."

Greg Davidowitch of the Flight Attendants Association said, “We have worked longer, we have worked harder for less money, we have dedicated ourselves time and time and time again to a successful reorganization, despite the efforts of the liars, thugs and thieves who are in control of this corporation today."

Sara Nelson Della Cruz said, “We have come to the table with them, we have presented them with a plan to save the pension plans, to make up for the funding shortfall and keep the pension plan intact, and they want nothing to do with it."

[JRob]

142. ...AND BOYCOTT TOO!!! n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

147. WHEN THE REVOLUTION COMES YOU'LL LIKE STRAWBERRIES

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WHEN THE REVOLUTION COMES YOU'LL LIKE STRAWBERRIES AND SWEET CREAM

AND THE REVOLUTION IS COMING!!

[Penndems]

148. What the hell is going on with the aviation industry in this country?

Are we eventually going to end up like the former Soviet Union, with only one airline becoming the dominant carrier? Are greed and corruption the only two values corporate presidents and CEOs embrace these days? Is there some sort of contest going on to see who will become our national Aeroflot?

When I was growing up, there were a myriad of airlines to chose from: Eastern, Pan Am, Braniff, TWA, United, Continental, Delta, America West, Alaska Airlines . . . and so forth. There were fare wars to entice people to fly this or that airline. They ran commercials touting comfortable accomodations, great food, experienced flight crews, and their on-schedule records. The only thing anybody had to worry about was making their flight on time (and, in the 1970s, whether or not there'd be an unscheduled flight to Havana).

I fear for the airline industry; I really do. The concessions that have been made (and are still being made) are cutting right down to the bone. They're bleeding money.

Sounds as if it might be time for a strike.

[AnneD]

152. OK this a rethorical question but...

Why is it that the consumer's feet are being held to the fire with this Bankruptcy Reform Bill (for consumer debt) but these Corps blithely walk away from their debts and responsibility. Oh, I forgot, this is a Republican administration.

[burrowowl]

159. Pretty soon

the Facist/Corporatists we tell us that Social Security monies belong to them, afterall, they paid into the payroll tax. You workers don't deserve a thing, continue to be slaves.

THE WHOLE DAMN NATION SHOULD BE STRIKING AND HOLDING THE PANTS OF ALL THOSE FACIST/CORPORATISTS UP TO THEIR NECKS AND PUTTING THEM IN THE NEAREST JAIL UNTIL TRIED AND SENT TO PRISON (A REAL PRISON). BY THE WAY WHY AREN'T THE ENRON PEOPLE IN PRISON?