Cuba, Venezuela offer medial assistance to other countries

[Mika]

Cuba, Venezuela offer medial assistance to other countries
http://www.vnanet.vn/NewsA.asp?LANGUAGE_ID=2&CATEGORY_ID=34&NEWS_ID=150063

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez on May 8 said that his country and Cuba will carry out a programme entitled "Mision Milagro" with the aim of bringing light to the poor people with eye diseases in the Latin American and Caribbean regions.

According to the programme, the patients with eye diseases will be sent to Caracas in Venezuela for consultations and then to Cuba for treatment. Thousands of Venezuelan patients with eye diseases have already been sent to Cuba for treatment.

The "Mision Milagro" is one of 41 agreements signed between Venezuela and Cuba when President Chavez visited Cuba in late April this year.

See? More threats to the US from Venezuela and Cuba. :eyes:






www.stopbolton.org

[brainshrub]

1. Perhaps they could send some help to the US?

I love Chanvez, but I wish he wouldn't coddle the dictator Castro. The people of Cuba might have a better life than most cariibian countries, but it's still a dictatorship.

When Bush holds hand with the Saudi tyrants, that's wrong. When Chanvez and castro hang out like old chums and give the "Victory" sign together for reporters, that's wrong to.

[Mika]

2. You couldn't be more wrong

http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.


You can read a short version of the Cuban democratic system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books






www.stopbolton.org

[Name removed]

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[On the Road]

6. Castro Has Been Elected Regularly Since 1976

It's a parlamentary system -- nobody runs for president or prime minister per se. Like Tony Blair, Castro ran as a representative in his local district.

[Name removed]

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[GirlinContempt]

31. Read up

before you talk about it, if you want to know.
http://www.georgetown.edu/pdba/Parties/Resumen/Cuba/desc.html

[Name removed]

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[GirlinContempt]

38. HAH

the party orientation labels are only the editors own impression of the orientation of a party and do in no way represent the parties' own opinions and that inclusion of an result does not reflect any opinion of the legitimacy of the election or the respective election processes.

I'm sorry, I don't accept opinion sites.

[Name removed]

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[GirlinContempt]

44. I'm not

telling you to adopt a Cuban system. And I'm not taking the easy way out. If I presented an independent website that decried the US's elections and leaders, would you accept it? With that kind of disclaimer on it? And if political parties openly plotting to overthrow the USian government were thrown in jail, would you call that the stifling of dissent? I'm not saying thats always the case, I don't have that information, and neither do you. But I know it HAS been the case, same with the 'protesters' who're being paid by external organizations to destabilize the government.

[Name removed]

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[pokercat999]

125. Whoa there Bucko, the US has only ONE political party

THE CORPORATE PARTY! You can't really be that blind can you?

[Judi Lynn]

70. Your source leaned on "Freedom House" for its lordly appraisal

of Cuba. Freedom House was created by members of the reactionary right-wing Batista-loving Cuban American National Foundation in Miami.

By the way, "dissident" parties in Cuba are NOT exiles, or they would not be IN CUBA, would they?

Exiles are OUTSIDE Cuba.

[GirlinContempt]

71. Stop taking the easy way out!

:crazy:

[Name removed]

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[Judi Lynn]

73. Izzatso?

CUBAN LIBRARIES SOLIDARITY GROUP PRESS RELEASE

Freedom House - don't believe the hype
28 March 2004

In a communique issued by IFEX on 23 March 2004 it was reported that:

"On 18 March, 2004, Human Rights Watch and Freedom House issued a joint statement with five other U.S.-based human rights groups, condemning the continued imprisonment of human rights activists, independent journalists, librarians and democracy advocates."

If you visit the Freedom House website you are told that "Freedom House, a non-profit, nonpartisan organization, is a clear voice for democracy and freedom around the world."

There is also a list of organisations which fund Freedom House. These include the US Agency for International Development (USAID) and the National Endowment for Democracy (NED).

Both USAID and the NED receive funding from the US government to support " pro-democracy" activities in Cuba.

In 2003 Washington gave $6 million to USAID and $1 million to NED, a congressionally funded organisation founded during the Cold War to finance subversion in the former Soviet bloc.

NED pays the salaries of "dissident librarians and journalists". For example, journalists are paid $15 per feature for CubaNet, a Miami-based online news service, which also receives NED support.

Payments for "independent journalists" articles last year came from a $41,000 grant from the NED, according to Cuba Net editor Rosa Berre.

So the US government funds USAID and NED and these organisations fund CubaNet and Freedom House. How, then, can Freedom House claim that it is a " nonpartisan organisation"?
(snip/...)

http://www.cubanlibrariessolidaritygroup.org.uk/releases/28_03_04.html

Don't think Eleanor Roosevelt founded a Cuban "exile" operation, thanks.

Don't call me a "Castro apologist." I'm not apologizing. You know that's red-baiting, don't you? Not acceptable.

Either provide a decent reference, or start educating yourself for more legitimate conversations.



Pretty nasty business, trying to name someone as an enemy of the state, isn't it? Why don't you prove it?

[Name removed]

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[Vincardog]

78. He would if Diebold had the concession. Remember the line about

glass houses and throwing rocks?

[brainshrub]

9. They are a Parliament, so they don't vote for the head of state.

Just because the people don't vote for a head-of-state does not mean it's a dictatorship. Case in point: England.

Castro is a dictator because there are no opposition parties allowed, and those who try to form them are jailed.

BTW: Welcome to DU. :toast:

[Name removed]

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[GirlinContempt]

26. Ditto Canada

also parliamentary

[aneerkoinos]

95. Read up

No political parties, including Communist party, are allowed to put candidates. Candidates are chosen directly by local assemblies of people, not by political parties.

I'm not saying Cuban system is perfect, far from it, but political parties are not an essential criterion for a functional democracy.

And AFAIK Cuba does not jail opposition to the Cuban social model, only traitors who take US money to work against that model. And not even those allways.

[brainshrub]

7. They are only allowed to have one political party.

Sorry, I don't buy it. I grew up in SoFla with people who loved, and hated, Castro. (Mostly the later.) I don't hate Castro, but let's not pretend he's something he's not.

Castro is a classic dictator. Perhaps not nearly as brutal as the dictatorships the US supports, but Cuba is not a free country.

In my own opinion, Castro will only hurt chances for Democracy in So America.

By the way, Castro will never die. 300 years from now he'll still be around.

[AP]

11. I don't think Castro is about democracy so much as about anti-fascism.

I'm not sure how he hurts the chances of democracy in S. America -- the arc of history in South America seems to be bending pretty nicely towards democracy in the last five or so years, notwithstanding anything Castro has done over the last 50 years.

But Castro definitely does not come across as a danger to political developments in S.A. since his anti-fascism seems to be compatible with the anti-neoliberalism that seems to be taking hold everywhere else in S.A.

[Name removed]

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[GirlinContempt]

55. Read your Marx

It's inherently pro-democracy. Ditto socialism. So you're basically agreeing.

[Mika]

80. Some of the political parties in Cuba

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70







www.stopbolton.org

[GirlinContempt]

86. Didn't you get the memo?

They're all in jail. Or deported.
Or in a deported jail.
Or jailed in de port.

[aneerkoinos]

96. Yup

In capitalism, political power of people (aka wage-slaves) is limited by "market-forces", the Capital. In socialism people have political control over the market forces.

So socialism means real liberty and democracy, capitalism slavery to capital.

[GirlinContempt]

102. Yep

Socialism is built by and for the people, and therefore serves in their best interests. Capitalism serves the interests of capital. But, people would have to actually READ Marx to realize what they're referring to, which is apparently too much to ask.

[Name removed]

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[GirlinContempt]

107. Actually

It's dependent on where they're working and living. As food, housing, and life needs are either subsidized or free, that is not a poverty wage. Free education, day care, health care, all the things that cost us hundreds of dollars a month, all taken care of! Oh no! Shocking! They don't live in a society where everything is privately owned and costs an arm and a leg. It's a SLAVE WAGE! Thats why they have 6 Dr's for every 1,000 people. (Thats more than double the U.S.) It's slavery. Slaves.

If you're going to pull out numbers like that, the LEAST you could do is try to look at the fact that the economies and lifestyles are so TOTALLY different that, taken into account, it's better than most Latin American countries.

Worried about slave wages in Cuba? lift the embargo's.

[Name removed]

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[GirlinContempt]

109. Now you're just TRYING to dumb this down.

You have to be. The black market exists for US goods, and the soaps, toothpaste, etc that you're talking about costs about 2 Cuban pesos, unless you want Dove, illegally smuggled in from the US. Yes, people who want USian products do have a much smaller living wage as they squander it on brands.

Be for private property all you like (though I refuse to refer to it as a right), be for an unsustainable economic structure which actually has far more control over your life than you'd like to believe. But maybe if you actually educated yourself on the Marxist principles you'd come into this with a better understanding of just what Marxism proposes and its effects.

I'm going to have to assume that you're referring to political activists funded by external governments to destabilize the Cuban government. Which is like, so horrible of them to try to stop. Really. I agree. Every country should allow people to organize a violent third-party funded coup within their borders. Duh.

[Name removed]

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[GirlinContempt]

111. Your subject line

AND the fact that you didn't read what I said before going off on a subject you seem to actually hold little knowledge about, has caused me to again back out of this. If you can't even be bothered to read what I've said, I can't be bothered to reply to you anymore. I'm not going to keep restating points for you to ignore and sensationalize.

[Name removed]

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[Judi Lynn]

114. Someone like that would also think that if you could buy a new Mustang

in 1966 for under $3,000.00, it's an indication that people used to be very poor then, since their cars were so inexpensive.

Impossible trying to encourage them to learn anything. Obviously they never travel anywhere.

[Name removed]

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[GirlinContempt]

116. It's just impossible

to debate with anyone who doesn't even bother to read what you say.

[Name removed]

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[aneerkoinos]

122. Axioms

The basic fault in your reasoning is that you suppose, by your cultural background, that political parties are essentian for a functional democracy.

In fact,, political parties are the opposite of real democracy. I'm not saying Cuba has it perfect, I'm saying we can do democracy much better and more democratically without corrupt authoritarian representation by "political parties". We can do democracy that is not only representative, but also direct and participatory.

[Judi Lynn]

118. If a thought entered their heads, they'd probably believe they were sick!

Unfortunately, you're right!

[aneerkoinos]

120. Sustainable

All I can say to you: ignorance is bliss.

Ecologism and limits of growth were not hot topics in 19th century, but what Marx' theory actually predicts, is that global capitalism wii fall after it's become really global via imperialism, and thus Capitalism will fall after limits of growth have been met.

And when material growth turns negative, only way for civilization to survive is coopearation and sharing, equality, aka socialism.

It is a sad fact that US cannot liberate itself from the harmfull mythology of Americana, but is doomed to realize the Mad Max society, abrupt and sudden population drop, quite likely much worse than that in former Soviet Union.

All the best!

[aneerkoinos]

119. Black market

Illegal drugs make between 10-25 per cent of US economy. Market forces of demand and supply are a fact that no society can deny. The problem is how to make them serve the common good.

Extrenest individualism, consumerism, materialism and idea of chemical happines (prozac nation) certaintly don't make people happy, but miserable. US is failed state on all levels. Cuba is less failed, obviously.

[NNN0LHI]

12. One party? Kind of like America is now n/t

[Name removed]

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[NNN0LHI]

20. And we have a pro-democratic system where 9 SC justices decided...

...who our president would be in 2000? That doesn't sound very democratic to me. Perhaps I am missing something here?

Don

[Name removed]

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[GirlinContempt]

27. Actually

I'd disagree with you on that. The essence of democracy is a power created by the people, for the people, with the principles of social equality. Which isn't in place.

[Name removed]

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[GirlinContempt]

33. Thats crap

Without social equality there can not be a true government of the people. I'm sure if we all think about that, we can understand why.

[Name removed]

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[GirlinContempt]

37. Uhm, Marxism, huh?

Though Marxism is, by definition, democratic, to dismiss calls for social equality in a democratic system as Marxist is ridiculous. Social equality is as important as legal equality, because the law makers are the people who're in charge based on a flawed social system. Without a policy of social equality, the people you're voting for, who've been chosen for you, can not represent the people. Which is what democracy is. pick up a dictionary. Democracy can only exist in a system where equality spreads to all sectors of a society, because it's very principle is the choice of the people. And if some people have less choice, less voice, than others, it isn't democratic. And THAT is a social issue.

[Name removed]

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[GirlinContempt]

41. its... right there in front of you

5 : the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges

1 a : government by the people - read what I said before.

[Name removed]

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[GirlinContempt]

45. What?!

Are you on drugs?

[Name removed]

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[NNN0LHI]

51. "like India used to do" You must be kidding. Aren't you?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/06/0602_030602_untouchables.html

India's "Untouchables" Face Violence, Discrimination

Hillary Mayell
for National Geographic News

June 2, 2003
More than 160 million people in India are considered "Untouchable"—people tainted by their birth into a caste system that deems them impure, less than human.

Human rights abuses against these people, known as Dalits, are legion. A random sampling of headlines in mainstream Indian newspapers tells their story: "Dalit boy beaten to death for plucking flowers"; "Dalit tortured by cops for three days"; "Dalit 'witch' paraded naked in Bihar"; "Dalit killed in lock-up at Kurnool"; "7 Dalits burnt alive in caste clash"; "5 Dalits lynched in Haryana"; "Dalit woman gang-raped, paraded naked"; "Police egged on mob to lynch Dalits".

"Dalits are not allowed to drink from the same wells, attend the same temples, wear shoes in the presence of an upper caste, or drink from the same cups in tea stalls," said Smita Narula, a senior researcher with Human Rights Watch, and author of Broken People: Caste Violence Against India's "Untouchables." Human Rights Watch is a worldwide activist organization based in New York.

India's Untouchables are relegated to the lowest jobs, and live in constant fear of being publicly humiliated, paraded naked, beaten, and raped with impunity by upper-caste Hindus seeking to keep them in their place. Merely walking through an upper-caste neighborhood is a life-threatening offense.

Nearly 90 percent of all the poor Indians and 95 percent of all the illiterate Indians are Dalits, according to figures presented at the International Dalit Conference that took place May 16 to 18 in Vancouver, Canada.

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[Name removed]

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[GirlinContempt]

54. Er

Right. You DON'T have that in the U.S.
Interesting. I wasn't aware you'd done away with the class barriers that prevent people without millions of dollars from doing anything worthwhile in their political system. I wasn't aware that Bush & co. weren't awarded arbitrary privileges based on their heredity. My mistake. Class barriers don't exist in the US.

Capitalism isn't pro or anti democracy. Capitalism is pro-capital. Thats it. I'm not making a case against capitalism, though it makes its own case in the fact that it is pro-capital, and that tends to not be in the interests of the people.

A) Nothing in that definition states that it applies only to aristocrats.
B) Aristocrats don't exist only in a monarchy. A member of a ruling class or of the nobility

[Name removed]

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[GirlinContempt]

68. Eh. Wrong.

You aren't paying attention to what I'm saying. At all. End the assumptions and we'll talk. At this point, I don't this this conversation should be continued, cause I'm going to tear out my hair. You're pulling stuff out of thin air, and it seems to be based on some McCarthy-esque blinder regarding social justice and the power of wealth. If you support capitalism you should realize the power of capital on all levels of society. You're taking this beyond what I was saying and trying to make it into some sort of Communistic ideal about money in general, which I may have, but is completely irrelevant.

[aneerkoinos]

98. Bush and Kerry

and "hereditary privileges".

You don't have that in US? LOL.

Capitalism is anti-democracy, it's system of plutocratic oligarchy, not democratic rule by equal citizens who have political control over productive means.

[aneerkoinos]

97. Social equality

is essential for democracy. Democracy, by definition, is not about some people being "more equal" than others. When rich people are "more equal", the system is plutocratic oligarchy, not democracy.

How many non-millionares are there in Congress, Senate and among the Presidential candidate in US? Not many.

[Name removed]

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[aneerkoinos]

128. US is not democracy

but oligarchic plutocracy, so it's bit thick that "moderate" supporter of plutocracy tries to teach what democracy means.

It means people power, period. I don't think even you are so naive to think that rule by rich people and capital itself, via best propaganda machine in the world, is rule by "we, the people".

Cuba is succesful, and democracy. Nordic countries that have been built by social democratic parties are also considered quite succesfull.

[Mika]

82. You are entirely wrong

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70







www.stopbolton.org

[aneerkoinos]

123. Again

Democracy don't mean rule by oligarchic, plutocratic and corrupt political parties, it means rule by the people, egalitarianism.

Partisanship is by no means essential to democracy, least of all definition of.

[manic expression]

124. HAHAHA!

WHAT AN IDIOTIC STATEMENT!

From another post in the SAME THREAD:

Some Political Parties of Cuba

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

(FROM Mika)

Oh no! Big Bad Castro doesn't allow any other parties! Even ignoring this, political parties are NOT ALLOWED TO PUT UP CANDIDATES (ON EDIT: INCLUDING THE COMMUNIST PARTY)!

WOW, YOU ARE HOPELESS.

[GirlinContempt]

32. You know

every time a government by the people forms, you get the fleeing bourgeoisie crying out that it isn't democratic, because they LOST.
And you get a campaign in the media that supports those people, because it's profitable, not to mention it feeds the party lines.
http://www.georgetown.edu/pdba/Parties/Resumen/Cuba/desc.html

[brainshrub]

35. Y'know, I had never thought of it that way.

You have a point, but Cuba still isn't democratic.

[GirlinContempt]

40. Tis the truth, tis

I'll accept that you don't think Cuba is democratic. Democracy is a vague and elusive concept any-who.

But, yeah, it's just like in Venezuela, the bourgeoisie rose up against the horrible Chavez, said he was a dictator, a satan..... aaaand organized a coup, put in someone who had not even the PRETENSE of election, and the guy threw out the constitution and everything the democratically elected government had done, and jailed hundreds of political leaders. And, when the majority of the people took to the streets to get their President back, the one they had elected and chosen, they were called thugs and bandits.

[brainshrub]

46. Chavez is a great man.

So is Lula.

One of the benefits to having an incompetent idiot in charge of the United States is that Latin America has been able to retain their elected reformers without them getting killed.

I'm amazed that Chavez is still alive.

[GirlinContempt]

48. Cheers to that

:toast:

[reprobate]

58. I think castro is not as brutal as the current American administration.

After all, Castro did not invade a sovereign nation based on fabricated intel and outright lies. And Castro is not responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of sovereign citizens of that nation.

If Castro had done what America has done, we would have invaded and deposed him two years ago.

And Castro is NOT the most hated man in the world now.

[lonestarnot]

77. OMG My first reaction also! Too Funny!

Edit for so sad!

[Minstrel Boy]

4. Look out! It's a plot to spread West Nile Virus!!!

I know because John Bolton told me! :crazy:

[Zorra]

5. Kindness and healing from government. What a novel idea.

As "Mr. Danger" and the fascist republicans cut nutrition programs for elderly folks to pay new prescription drug programs, a social democracy is cooperating with a socialist state in order to heal poor people with debilitating eye diseases.

Ya gotta ask yerself "What would Jesus do"?;-)

Chavez is looking like a pretty good guy so far.

[bullimiami]

14. when considering someones morality just remember

castro sent doctors to haiti. bush sent death.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Bridget Burke]

57. Oops! Guess I missed where you criticized Bush....

Or any Republican. You don't like Kucinich, though--although you offered no details.

The 1994 intervention was to restore a popularly-elected president to office. The 2004 intervention was to help out rebels that "we" supported. "Democracy" is only recommended for some countries.

Haitians make such good sweat-shop employees!

[Name removed]

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[eridani]

93. The people in Ohio elected him to Congress because his decision--

--to refuse to sell public power turned out to be right.

[Name removed]

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[Mika]

94. More Hatians than ever are trying to leave..

.. but the US has formed a perimeter around the coast to intercept and return them to the US assisted henchmen & squalor.

Many have made it to Cuba though, and remain there. The Cuban government has promised not to return them to Haiti until their elected government is returned.







www.stopbolton.org

[Name removed]

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[brainshrub]

18. 1994 we re-established an elected head of state with UN approval.

2004 we kidnapped the elected leader and established a brutal military junta.

So yes, there is a HUGE difference between the invasions of '94 and '04.

[bullimiami]

21. a HUGE difference

1994 was about putting back a government that was elected by the people.

2004 was about greed, corruption and giving back the country to the elite.

[Name removed]

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[Guy Whitey Corngood]

24. How about not arming the old Duvalierist assholes in the 1st place. N/T

[Name removed]

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[NNN0LHI]

53. Are you talking about the rebels that the USA armed by any chance?

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=436352005

US admits 2,600 weapons sent to Haiti

REED LINDSAY
IN PORT-AU-PRINCE


THE US government gave more than 2,600 weapons to bolster Haiti’s controversial police force last year despite allegations of human rights abuses and a more than 13-year-old arms embargo, officials at the State Department and US Embassy said.

The officials rejected allegations of a massive $7m shipment of arms and ammunition to Haiti in 2004, but conceded that the US had given a smaller amount of arms to the Haitian government in the form of bilateral assistance. An official at the State Department added that the US government was considering a request by the Haitian government to approve the sale of an additional $1.9m in weapons this year.

A report issued earlier this month by the Small Arms Survey, a Geneva-based organisation financed by the Swiss government, states that 5,435 military-style weapons, 4,433 handguns and some one million assorted rounds of ammunition, valued at $6.95m, allegedly entered Haiti from the United States in 2004 for use by the Haitian national police.

US officials called the report "false", but admitted that the US government transferred 2,657 weapons to Haiti last year, including more than 1,900 .38 calibre revolvers, nearly 500 9mm pistols, eight submachine-guns and 13 M-14 rifles for use by the Haitian police force.

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[NNN0LHI]

75. The police who weren't rebels were controlled by Aristide n/t

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

62. Apparently you haven't been keeping up. Have ya'. n/t

[aneerkoinos]

100. Blah

Given free democratic choice, Haiti would go the Cuban way in a minute, which is the fastest and only way out of their misery, that is all you need to understand re US policy on Haiti.

When Aristide made gestures of becoming more independent and less obedient to IMF and considered applying Cuban social programs in education and health care, first Haiti was put under economic sanctions, and then US kicked Aristide out. Only way to keep Haiti allying with Cuba is murderous colonialism to keep the blacks in slavery.

[AP]

28. Not have encouraged the civil war in the first place.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

52. DU'ers have spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours watching

the tragic, villianous actions from _{George Bush} concerning Haiti. WE all did our part in trying to get informed. It's a real low note hearing you didn't take the time to learn something about it then, yourself.

You have the entire internet to explore for the tons of articles which will get you up to date on the subject.

DU'ers don't believe the population wanted to overthrow the very President they loved then, and continue to love.

Sorry I won't be answering until late tonight. I've got to be gone until much later. I'm interested in seeing how you will do with some people who definitely know what has been happening.

[Bridget Burke]

56. Why don't YOU provide some information?

There's lots out there....

[aneerkoinos]

99. Not so big

Clinton put democratic governement back in Haiti only after they promised to be good obedient boys to IMF. Which is not democratic, but plutocratic and imperialistic. As Clinton was.

[Judi Lynn]

49. Are you not aware there are a lot of Haitians who have sought refuge

in Cuba? Americans who have taken the time to read or keep research or keep their ears open have known about this for years.

There are hundreds of thousands of Haitians living in Cuba currently.

A couple of years ago, Haiti's most beloved singer, Martha Jean-Claude died in Cuba after fleeing political trouble from the Duvalier government. She was greatly celebrated throughout the Caribbean.

Many DU'ers know that Cuba has accepted refugees throughout, even though _Bush sent a group of American ships to Haiti to turn back everyone desperately trying to reach America after the contrived "rebellion" resulting in the removal of the very President Bill Clinton had returned to office, following the coup arranged by the elder _Bush which removed him from his elected position originally.

There's a famous group of Haitian singers who are known world-wide (except the U.S., of course) who are second generation Haitians.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

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[chlamor]

65. The US IS a ONE PARTY SYSTEM

Name one non-capitalist President.
The rest is window dressing for the wage slaves.

[GirlinContempt]

69. Woohoo!

thanks for that

[AuntiBush]

83. Luv that picture - keep it posted!

Great reminder and wonderful memo point!

[Huckebein the Raven]

126. That is a great pic. Where did you get that ?

:toast:

[Judi Lynn]

67. Don't you ever take time to think?

I'm waiting to go to a doctor's appointment, or I'd start posting the information which has already been discussed in depth here, over and over and over since that "intervention."

You are apparently overlooking the conspicuously familiar habit of our Republican Presidents to destabilize countries by heavy use of funds through any number of organizations.

Here's a quick one:

Wednesday, April 7th, 2004
Witnesses: U.S. Special Forces Trained and Armed Haitian Anti-Aristide Paramilitaries in D.R.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/07/1527256&mode=thread&tid=25


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

US Trained and Suppled Haitian Paramilitaries in Dominican Republic

Amy Goodman (AG): Dr. Luis Barrios. You were looking at who the rebel forces were and where they came from?

Dr. Luis Barrios (LB): Yes. We were running interviews in the Dominican Republic trying to get the information about what was going on in the Dominican Republic for the last two years. Preliminary reports indicate that for the last two years at least, Haitian rebels were living in the Dominican Republic. They were training in military settings that belong to the Dominican government. They also trained in San Cristobar. They were receiving technical training every month through the so-called International Republican Institute at the Santo Domingo Hotel every month. That was also the day for payment.
(snip)

http://www.afsc.org/pwork/0405/040514.htm


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Operation Enduring Sweatshop – Another Bush Brings Hell to Haiti
by Chris Floyd
10 March 2004

This week, the Bush administration added another violent "regime change" notch to its gunbelt, toppling the democratically elected president of Haiti and replacing him with an unelected gang of convicted killers, death squad leaders, militarists, narcoterrorists, CIA operatives, hereditary elitists and corporate predators – a bit like Team Bush itself, in other words.

Although the Haiti coup was widely portrayed as an irresistible upsurge of popular discontent, it was of course the result of years of hard work by Bush's dedicated corrupters of democracy, as William Bowles of Information Clearinghouse reports. Bushist bagmen funded the political opposition to President Jean-Bertrand Aristide, smuggled guns to exiled Haitian warlords, and carried out a relentless strangulation of the county, cutting off long-promised financial and structural aid to one of the poorest nations on earth until food prices were soaring, unemployment spiked to 70 percent, and the broken-backed government lost control of society to armed gangs of criminals, fanatics and the merely desperate.
(snip)

http://www.doublestandards.org/floyd5.html


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As I said, I'm on my way out, and I'm going to be interested in reading a lot of the excellent sources you're probably going to provide, rather than uninformed claims, later.

I'll be happy to post any number of helpful articles at that time.

[GirlinContempt]

76. I'd like them

just for bookmarking purposes, if you have them handy

[aneerkoinos]

101. The tragedy of Haiti

Is US support for the Duvaliers and all other interventions, including 94 and 04. The tragedy of Haiti is living too close to US.

[Mika]

79. Haitians do flee to Cuba

Cuba doesn't send them back because they have a legitimate asylum claim.. the US assisted in the overthrow of their elected government.

The US deports them back to a murderous unelected government forthwith.






www.stopbolton.org

[ima_sinnic]

121. how do you know how many Haitians have emigrated to Cuba?

You are implying that "not that many" do, that more come to the U.S. Do you have any data to support that? For all anybody knows, Haitians might be going to Cuba in droves. The corporate media couldn't care less, so we Americans will hardly hear about it if at all.

[chlamor]

64. Nominated-Need One More n/t

[bvar22]

81. So Cuba is BAD because it has ...

...one less political Party than the US (and this is arguable).

Didn't Thomas Jefferson and several of the founding fathers warn AGAINST the corrupting influence of Political Parties?
I believe it was Jefferson who wanted NO political Parties.

Anyway, good on Chavez AND Castro for providing HealthCare for those who need it. They are working together to make the World a better place.

If I lived in Cuba, I would have HealthCare.

Doesn't someone have to be reasonably HEALTHY to care about who belongs to which Party and How many are there?
When I have an abscessed tooth, I could give a shit!

[Mika]

84. Cuba has many political parties

One thing though..

http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

Citizens diriectly propose candidates from among those on the voter rolls (in other words.. any citizen who has the right to vote has the right and chance to be nominated and elected).

I've been to Cuba and have witnessed the entire election process.


Really, DUers who haven't been there (and are making wild claims about Cuba this and Cuba that) should read..

Democracy in Cuba and the 1997-98 Elections
Arnold August
1999
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[GirlinContempt]

85. PINKO ALERT

Quick! Alert the media, we have a state of POLKADOT ALERT on the charts here, people.

Because, healthcare is for the rich. Leave the poor to die, they're in the way as it is. Less people to step over on my way to the bank.

[Mika]

87. Cubans have representational government

Before the 1959 revolution

75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.

More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.

85% had no inside running water.

91% had no electricity.

There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.

More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.

Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.

The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.

45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.

25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.

1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).

27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.

Racial discrimination was widespread.

The public school system had deteriorated badly.

Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.

Police brutality and torture were common.

___



After the 1959 revolution

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care is forced on Cubans. Castro didn't give it to them. They worked hard to create these thingd that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

Cubans wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to do so. Cubans wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to do so, and they have it. Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.


Cubans want normalization between the US and Cuba, and they have thrown their doors open to us, but, it is our US government that prevents what the majority of Americans want their government to do - normalize relations. Worse yet, the US government forbids and has criminalized travel to Cuba by Americans - something that Cuba hasn't done.





www.stopbolton.org

[GirlinContempt]

88. Uh, read through the

rest of my replies. I think you'll get a better picture of what I was doing with that.

[Mika]

89. I'm catching up.

:thumbsup:

I was too busy today to follow this thread.

Its an eye opener. :crazy:


I find it interesting that many DUers seem so sure of what is going on in Cuba NOW, but have never been there. Of course Americans are a special case, it is difficult to get there legally, as our US government forbids regular travel to Cuba. Doesn't it kinda make some wonder why? What is there that the US gov doesn't want Americans to see?






www.stopbolton.org

[GirlinContempt]

90. I find it

interesting how so many USians are quick to call bullshit in the media when it pertains to their own politics, but seem to overlook it in others.

[Mika]

91. Yes indeed.

The press ringer Jeff Gannon story was big here at DU, as was Armstrong Williams story, but the US/BushCrimeInc bought_and_paid_for "independent journalists" in Cuba speak only truth. :crazy:

Same goes with Oswaldo Paya's Partido Democrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC).







www.stopbolton.org

[GirlinContempt]

92. Shh!

Locking up people who're paid to overthrow you and destabilize your country is a stifling of free speech. Just read the paper. Cause its GOTTA be true.

[Frederik]

113. Thumbs up to them

[Judi Lynn]

127. Mika, I found an article which should shine some light on Cuban wages

It was written by Julián Gutiérrez, of whom I've known for years, from a distance. He's a terrific guy, and has traveled a lot. He's got so many American and Canadian friends among his acquaintances.

Cuba: Cost of Living

Written by Julián Gutiérrez

Cindy What are the wages in Cuba? What is the cost of living? These are topics that are often used by our enemies to attack us. They even confuse many friends and even Cubans that live in Cuba, who repeat without thinking that their wage is between $10 and $20 USD.
Of course the topic is very complex and I do not seek to exhaust everything that one could say about it. I would like you to analyze what I explain here and let's establish an exchange where you give your perspectives and bring up the doubts that you still have.


BASIC CONSIDERATIONS
First I want to establish some economic concepts. To be able to analyze the financial situation of any person, family and even country, We cannot just take into consideration the nominal value of the capital that they possess, but also the purchasing power of that capital. Applying this concept to a person, it means that the important thing is not the nominal value of that person's capital (wage), but rather the purchasing power that this capital has. An example of this can be seen in the following: A person that lives in New York or in Tokyo, Japan (two of the most expensive cities in the world), if he receives a monthly wage of $1500.00 USD he could not live; but if he lived in La Paz, Bolivia or Port-au-Prince, Haiti he would have an ample situation. That is to say that the $1500.00 USD would have a bigger purchasing power in La Paz or Port-au-Prince that in New York or Tokyo.

What will these workers' wages buy?

The second question that I want to look at is: What are the expenses that most impact the wages of the people in the countries that We are comparing? : 1. -Housing. - That covers in most cases around half of the wages. 2. - Food. 3. - Education. 4. - Public health. 5. - Services. - Transportation, telephone, electricity, water, gas, funeral expenses, etc. 6. - Social Activities. - Recreation, culture, sports, etc. 7. - Taxes.
If we agree on these concepts, we can go on to analyze the purchasing power of the Cuban peso, that is to say, of the wage of any Cuban.
Let us consider that the main necessities of the Cubans are the same ones that we set down previously. Then let's analyze what a Cuban or a Cuban family spends for each of them.

How much will it cost to educate these kids?

Before beginning the analysis of each concept I want to explain a situation that exists in Cuba that is very different from other countries of the Third World and even of the First World (industrialized countries). In Cuba, in families, all the people of working age usually work and all the pensioners receive a pension. For this reason, in each household there are several incomes. In my house, for example, live seven people: me, my wife, my daughter and son-in-law (ages 29 & 30), their two children (ages 4 years and one month) and my son (age 27): so five of us are of working age and are working and receiving wages so the household has five incomes.
(snip)

http://hometown.aol.com/merengue123/cubaeng2.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
He used to post at CNN. He has seen wave after wave of Miami right-wing loons running exactly the same disinformation we saw on this thread. He's used to it.

Pity.

[Mika]

129. Thanks Judi. Certainly refreshing..

.. to hear from Julian. It gets tiring beating back the red baiting posters who have never set foot on the island who spew accusations with nary a thought or serious question as to how Cuba has progressed as far as it has. It seems that the Cubaphobes think that Castro is one helluva guy to do it all singlehandedly. That's why I like Julian's writings.. he is part of what makes Cuba progressive and gives credit where credit is due - the Cuban people.










www.stopbolton.org

[Judi Lynn]

130. Kick!