Ousted worshippers stand their ground on Mother's Day (DUer mentioned!)

[stevedeshazer]

link: http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050509/NEWS01/50508008/1001

WAYNESVILLE — On Sunday, when many churchgoers were celebrating the blessing of mothers, some members of a Haywood County Church were sitting in pews for a different reason — to stand their ground.

Nine members of East Waynesville Baptist Church, including some who had been members there for more than 30 years, claim they were recently voted out of the church because they didn’t agree with Pastor Chan Chandler’s politicizing of the pulpit. The ousted members, including one who is a registered Republican, said they wanted to be there because it was their church home.

<snip>

Marsha Hammond, an Asheville psychologist who works in Waynesville, was outraged enough by the situation to show up at the church Sunday wearing her “Buck Bush” T-shirt and carrying a homemade sign that read, “Who Would Jesus Exclude?” She was the only protester. She said she was there to raise consciousness.

“This situation is ridiculous,” she said. “If people understood the issues this kind of thing wouldn’t happen.”

here's her earlier thread with a first-hand report: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1770327

[enigmatic]

1. Right on, Marsha!!

You did good:)

[Daphne08]

2. "Sunday�s service 'was the first sermon I�ve heard

since October that politics wasn�t mentioned,' said Edith Nichols, a 29-year member of East Waynesville, who said she was voted out."


Politics needs to be left at the church door, and religion needs to be left off the floor in Congress!

[enigmatic]

5. I completely agree, Daphne

;)

[ktowntennesseedem]

17. Amen to your last statement!

:applause:

[calimary]

38. Amen to your amen!

As I recall from my New Testament studies classes (in Catholic school), Jesus didn't hang out with politicians. OR with Pharisees. He spent his time with those who were on the outs with most of 'em.

[ktowntennesseedem]

39. Learned the same lessons out of my Baptist upbringing.

Must of had the same textbook!!!

[Freedom_from_Chains]

3. Ok, I get it now

This is what this thing is really all about. It's a setup to demonstrate how conservative Christians are being persecuted.

This could change if U.S. Rep. Walter B. Jones Jr., R-Farmville, and 167 other representatives, including Rep. Charles Taylor, R-Brevard, have their way. In 2003, Jones introduced House Resolution 235, which seeks to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to protect the religious free exercise and free speech rights of churches and other houses of worship. The resolution is now in the House Ways and Means Committee.

The Houses of Worship Free Speech Restoration Act would amend �the Internal Revenue Code to state that churches and other houses of worship shall not lose such designation because of the content, preparation or presentation of any homily, sermon, teaching, dialectic or other presentation made during religious services or gatherings,� according to the resolutions summary.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

4. Then I'm turning my home into a house of worship

Services will consist of watching 30 minutes of MSM news and hollering "Fucking liar!" and "Bullshit!" at the screen. Donations accepted in the form of sacramental wine (or beer if you prefer) and chips. Tax deduction, here I come!

[jaysunb]

6. Thanks for the laugh !

It's been a long day & I needed that ! :toast:

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

10. Bless you my child

I see you have started worshipping already.

:toast:

[ebayfool]

7. Yours is the first & only church I want to join!

(and I'll bring brownies to go w/the sacrament/donation!)

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

12. Mmm, brownies!

You just made Deacon!

(Steve - sorry for the thread hijack :blush:)

[stevedeshazer]

21. Works for me

I'll join!

[DanCa]

8. Lol thank you .

This is the first time I laughed at this. :) It kinda reminds me of the Married with Children episode where AL forms the church of No Mam. Thank you. I needed to laugh at this madness :)

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

9. That MWC episode is inspirational!

We are big Bundy fans here. Maybe we could add a screening of the show to the service. SWMBO's House-O-Worship is sounding better all the time!

:hi:

[ebayfool]

14. Will the 'House-O-Worship' have a drive-in section, like the old time

movie drive-ins? You could put it in the driveway w/some of those hang-on-the-window speakers. Deacons on skates rolling from car to car delivering the collection plate (literally, chips & brownies) & toppin' off the sacramental wine (& beer)? 'House-O-Worship' franchises (tax free zones, natch!) - oh, the possibilities! LOL!

Hmmm, I'm in CA - bet someone here has already done the roller skating Deacons thingy!

[bcingu]

30. How about a drive-up window for confessionals?

Call it "Toot 'n' tell"!

[Democracy White]

33. There already is

a drive in church here in Grand Rapids, I think it's caledd the Woodlawn Drive in church. Me, my mom and sister used to laugh about it every time we drove past. Come to think of it, it's on the same road as my audiologist's

Dee

[ebayfool]

49. No way?! Do they have the hang-on-the-window speakers & the ...

Deacons on roller skates? LOL!

[Democracy White]

52. I have no idea

But it would be a riot to go there some day and find out. Maybe I should go next Sunday. I have to go to my audiologist's tommorow so I will find out when they have services.

Dee

[Democracy White]

34. There already is a

drive in church here in Grand Rapids, it's called the Woodmeadow Drive In Church off Kalamazoo Ave. I think it's Christian Reformed but I'm not sure. Me, my mom and sister used to laugh and joke about it every time we went past. Come to think of it, it's on the same road as my audiologist's.

Dee

[NMDemDist2]

13. you could watch the Daily show and actually have some fun

better on the blood pressure too I should think :evilgrin:

[jbnow]

15. Excuse me, but you are talking about a church.

Bullshit? I think not.
Obviously Holy Shit is more appropriate.

I became a licensed minister for...I think it was $2.00. Some church offers them on-line, essentially on the basis if one feels called to minister, you are a minister. The license is legal but you do have to meet qualifications to be tax exempt. I'm not sure that calling out "Holy shit" alone would be enough, but perhaps if we bowed our head?

[Libby2]

16. Count me in !

LMAO !!

[ktowntennesseedem]

18. Let's just take the next logical step:

Have ALL politcal contributions be tax-deductable, since after all they are actually acts of worship!

(Wait a minute; Mr. "New-Tax-Cut-A-Day" would probably go for that, since the Repugs would benefit even more. I couldn't support anything, even sarcastically, that would benefit them more than it might benefit me.)

Never mind!

[mmonk]

20. Good one!

Real good.

[lonestarnot]

24. Hehehehehe LOL ...vote for that tax exemption there! Will you be

serving cookies with that beer? Sin wagon sit in...

[ltfranklin]

26. I've been worshipping for years, then.

Fox News is the Antichrist!

[stevedeshazer]

22. I didn't know about that

That bill is newsworthy on it's own merit. :scared:

[Freedom_from_Chains]

25. Oh, these people have all kinds of bills in various committees

that if enacted will fundamentally change the type of government we have. I have been trying to find time to construct a list of them and there numbers in both the house and the senate, but as of yet have not been able to get it done.

[ltfranklin]

27. Perhaps that's their plan....

Perhaps all these biils are a smoke-screen...you throw a paper storm at the committees, who drop a few leaks to MSM and the blogs, and you end up with a hugh sh*tstorm about the smokescreen bills while the stuff you really want kind of slides in under the door.

Part of the reason for the speed at which the Repugs try to railroad their bills is so that nobody has a chance to spot these little "razor-cuts" until it's too late, but you get enough of them, and you end up bleeding to death.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

28. Death by a Thousand Cuts!!!! LOL

Your point is well taken, which is why I find it important to watch everything they do.

[burrowowl]

11. She posted

her experience on General Discussion.

Wonderful person, she more than

:yourock: :bounce:

I like the clapping.

[DoYouEverWonder]

19. Wow, great story

I think a few cars in that neighborhood could use one of these.



?mnb

[chomskysright]

40. hey: I'll plaster it on some Stop signs when I'm in Waynesville tomorrow

THANKS!

maybe even pass it around at the Tuesday night business meeting at that church.

[DoYouEverWonder]

51. Just be careful

you are obviously stepping on some toes and under the circumstances some of these folks might get nasty.

BTW: The tag on the bottom line PBWY - DYEW means, Peace Be With You (and my initials). I think if these cards are presented with that attitude in mind, it will help diffuse any negative energy.

Good luck and I wish you much success.

[AspenRose]

50. oooh I LIKE that DYEW!

:applause:

[kimpossible]

23. Good for you, Marsha!

Way to go!

[chomskysright]

29. WHOOP, WHOOP! : use this as an opportunity to 'PUMP U UP'

We're getting some traction here people.

marsha.

[chomskysright]

31. IRS Tax Exempt Org Cust Serv: 1 877 829 5500

Please contact the Exempt Organization Customer Service at 1-877-829-5500. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Sincerely,
The IRS Website Support Team

[stevedeshazer]

32. I'm glad you found this thread

I admire what you have done.

:hi:

[slybacon9]

35. Well Martha, Jesus would probably start with the gays...

And the list would go on until he reached straight white rich american men.

What I'm really curious about is if Martha's church was also againt homosexuals (just a hunch...yes) and if she felt like protesting then? Or did she just wait until it effected her own practice.

AND

Why the hell do these people want to attent a hatefest anyway?

[slybacon9]

36. Sorry...

(voice of Jan Brady)
MARSHA MARSHA MARSHA!!!

[chomskysright]

41. Freeper reply, baby: you can't fool me: & its Marsha....

[chomskysright]

42. and to speak to the gay issue vis a vis the Southeast US:

...many people have gay members of their families and there is not very much shunning of this matter. I speak from the position as a psychologist with gay clients who have told me about their families. It is certainly a small 'n' in stats talk.

I wouldn't say that the news that your son or daughter is gay is exactly welcomed here but I think that unless the gays are standing shoulder to shoulder with the heterosexuals----and I am one of those--- that the Repugs will pick us apart from each other.

I see this very much as an issue that is a 'marching' issue a la Martin, the greatest son of Atlanta to have graced our existences.

Its a wedge issue the Repugs love to use----this fear of gays/ their diseases/ their influence on the boy and girl scounts/etc.

In this town of Waynesville, where the Baptist church is, the Main Street has many shops which are 'manned' by obvious gays. People do not avoid those shops; they do good business.

We're not talking a population of frank heterosexuals and 'fag-hags' to use an old, nasty term. We are talking about people who work in factories; people who make minimum wage; Medicaid/ medicare clients; retired people: hard scrabble people.

I'm not saying that the place is 'thankin Jesus' for the queer population, but they don't have the problem with it that you perhaps think.

Indeed, the Southeast, at least the mid to large-size cities are more tolerant than most people from other parts of the country could imagine. Its when you hit the suburbs and exburbs that you run into people telling 'n.....er' jokes while they're standing in line paying for their gas (an experience which did happen to me, outside Atlanta, in the heavily white-flight exburbs a decade or so ago).

[Fire Walk With Me]

37. http://www.hr235.org/ ASKS you to call DeLay, Hastert. Here are the #s.

Speaker of the House - Dennis Hastert: [phone]
House Majority Leader - Tom Delay: [phone]
Ways and Means Chairman - Bill Thomas: [phone]

Remember, they asked you to call and to make your opinion known.

Way to go Marsha!

http://www.hr235.org/

[chomskysright]

43. this web page was created by some unidentified fundie org: ...

here is what is posted under one tab:

http://www.hr235.org/view/faq.asp?id=Home%20Page/Devils%20Advocate#668-2003-07-02-3914-984

Q: Why was Freedom of Speech removed from houses of worship in the first place?
A: Today pastors do not have freedom of speech from behind the pulpit. The current law in the form of an IRS code is the cause of this lack of freedom. This law was inserted into the tax code by Senator Lyndon Johnson in 1954. Until that time there were no restrictions on the church's role in politics. Although it probably was not "intended to target houses of worship," the law was intended to restrict organizations that opposed Johnson's reelection to the Senate. The reasons for this ban were never properly debated or voted on as a separate issue.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Will this mean that all sermons will be politically motivated?
A: Simply put, your pastor, priest, rabbi, or other religious leader here in America has the freedom to preach any message that he/she desires with one exception. If he/she expresses an opinion, or makes a statement that is considered to "influence legislation" or "participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office."<, they risk the tax exempt status. [br />
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: What religious denominations does this legislation affect?
A: All religions, all faiths support the Freedom of Speech Restoration Act. Why wouldn't they? Some churches and demoninations currently speak freely from the pulpit about political issues, either because of their tax status, or because their current political connections secure their 501(c)(3) status. HR.235 levels the playing field. All faith-based ministries will be free to speak their mind about any issue, including political and moral issues, without financial reprecussion. This was the original intent of the framers of our constitution. Since 1954, that right has been distorted, misused, and abused. This legislation simply corrects that injustice, and levels the playing field for all faiths, religions, and denominations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Is this legislation motivated by a particular faith or political party?
A: It is supported by all Americans across all faiths, regardless of their political or religious affiliations. It simply restores the first amendment rights of all religious leaders to express their opinions to their congregations without the fear of revoking your place of worship's tax exempt status.

[chomskysright]

44. & they try to frame it as a matter of 'freedom of speech' for the preacher

....sorry, won't wash.

critical thinking skills applied would reveal that arm-twisting and coercion would be biggest by-product.

[Fire Walk With Me]

45. Yep. Which is why it's fun to take their advice to call and "Just say no"

to this monstrosity. "I got your number from the website and just wanted to say WTF!?"

A resolution with its own web site? Sheesh! This in itself might be called a violation of church and state, especially as it asks churchgoers to take political action.

[Fire Walk With Me]

46. Ah! Here's your thread on the subject:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1451745

[chomskysright]

47. American United for separation of church & state demand IRS invest

IRS Should Investigate NC Church that Expelled Democrats, Says AU
May 9, 2005
East Waynesville Baptist Church Immersed In Partisan Activity, Church-State Watchdog Group Charges
____________________________________

Oppose Politicizing Houses of Worship
Keep houses of worship from becoming
partisan political rally halls!
http://capwiz.com/au/mail/oneclick_compose/?alertid=2527776
CONTACT
Press:
Joseph Conn, Rob Boston, or Jeremy Leaming
202-466-3234 telephone
202-466-2587 fax

IRS SHOULD INVESTIGATE NORTH CAROLINA CHURCH THAT EXPELLED DEMOCRATS, SAYS AMERICANS UNITED

East Waynesville Baptist Church Immersed In Partisan Activity, Church-State Watchdog Group Charges

Americans United for Separation of Church and State today called on the Internal Revenue Service to investigate a North Carolina church whose pastor garnered national headlines after he expelled several Democrats from the congregation.

Recent actions by Pastor Chan Chandler of the East Waynesville Baptist Church in Waynesville, N.C., are merely indicative of a larger pattern of partisan political activity at the church, Americans United asserts.

Several newspapers and television stations have reported that on Oct. 3, 2004, Chandler told his congregation, "If you vote for John Kerry, you need to repent or resign." Church members told the media that prior to the election, Chandler frequently endorsed President George W. Bush from the pulpit and attacked Kerry.

"Pastor Chandler seems to have confused his church with a Republican Party caucus meeting," said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. "It's time for the IRS to give him a swift reminder of the laws of the land."

Section 26 U.S.C. 501 (c) (3) of the tax code states that houses of worship and other non-profits may "not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distribution of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office."

In a letter sent to the IRS today, Americans United requested an investigation of the matter. AU noted that during his sermon last Sunday, Chandler was unapologetic for supporting and opposing candidates from the pulpit and promised to keep doing it.

"I believe it is obvious that Pastor Chandler has openly defied federal tax law and is vowing to do so again," Lynn wrote. "I also believe the IRS cannot afford to ignore such blatant disregard for our nation's tax laws, as it sends a signal to others religious leaders that they too can engage in partisan politicking from the pulpit without fear of sanction."
Americans United is a religious liberty watchdog group based in Washington, D.C. Founded in 1947, the organization educates Americans about the importance of church-state separation in safeguarding religious freedom.

[stevedeshazer]

48. Excellent

I am a card-carrying member of Americans United. I support this 100%

Once again, thanks for representing on a local level what many of us nation-wide believe; that politics and religion are separate.