LAT: Unhappy Apple Yanks Books Off Store Shelves

[NoPasaran]

SAN FRANCISCO — The iPod is a hit. Macs are flying off the shelves. The share price has tripled in a year.

So why is Apple Computer Inc. so touchy these days?

In its latest fit of corporate pique, Apple pulled dozens of books by John Wiley & Sons Inc. from the shelves of its 103 stores, the publisher said Tuesday. Apple was unhappy with an upcoming book on its chief executive and co-founder, Steve Jobs.

The move heightens Apple's reputation as Silicon Valley's most thin-skinned company. In recent months it has drawn criticism for suing three website operators to learn the source of leaks about new products.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-apple27apr27.story

[MrModerate]

1. Apple makes very good products, and Jobs has proved . . .

his business genius several times over.

But they can be real jerks at times. I would never buy an Apple product precisely because the company's maddening "hipper-than-thou" attitude gives me the pip.

I think I'll go out and buy an MP3 player from someone else and maybe pick up a few Wiley books.

[amber dog democrat]

3. So true

but I will never buy a windows device. Friends don't let friends use Microsoft.

[emulatorloo]

12. Make sure those companies are as Blue as Apple then

EOM

[youspeakmylanguage]

15. Substitute Jobs for the leader of the cool kids clique back in high school

...and it all makes perfect sense.

I doubt Steve Wozniak, the greatest geek of them all, wanted any of this crap associated with his company. He still buys Apple products, though. I never will.

[emulatorloo]

21. Then you are cutting off your nose to spite your face

Because Apple makes great products.

(PS Doubt Jobs was one of the cool kids, but I guess I don't know his bio enough to say. However if I owned a bunch of stores, and somebody wrote a nasty book about me, I probably would think real hard whether I wanted to carry that companies books. And I was sooo not in with the cool kids)

[youspeakmylanguage]

23. I already have one flamewar going on this subject...

...so I can't start another. All I know is the one Apple store I visited (in our local luxury shopping mall) had overpriced products, compared to similar products I can find at my local Best Buy. They were pretty, though. And the store was very, um, white. Like the rest of the mall.

[emulatorloo]

25. the Best Buy sells macs

Step away from the luxury mall.

Somehow, PC users forget their bargain hunting skills whenever they want to bash Apple. There are plenty of places to buy Apple products that are cheaper than buying directly from Apple.

There are tons of sites on the web that track bargains on Apple products.

As to price performance -- I have both a windows machine and a mac in my music studio. Most of the time my Mac just works. Much of the time, my Windows machine needs troubleshooting. There is a cost in time spent. But that's another flame war.

:toast:

[youspeakmylanguage]

27. I didn't really explain...(apology for "white" comment)

...that the other flameware I'm involved in involves a poster who made the statement that anyone who couldn't afford a $499 mini mac shouldn't be computer shopping in the first place. That really chapped my ass because I am on a limited budget and couldn't afford a new Mac at any price, or any computer short of buying a used one off of Ebay.

I don't have a personal PC right now, but I've been using PC's since IBM introduced the PCjr...

(Interesting sidenote: I had an uncle at the time who worked in IBM's R&D department. He helped develop the credit card stylus pads that are used in stores.)

I learned DOS then Windows, but when I get a hand-me-down Presario in the next few months I'm going to switch completely to Linux. I know the learning curve is steep, but from what I understand it is more than worthwhile. Luckily I don't have a PC full of files to switch over.

I really have no interest in paying more money to run an OS simply because it is easier to use. I want the best OS as far as efficiency and stability are concerned.

BTW, the "white" comment on my original post wasn't fair or cool. I was still heated from the other discussion. I apologize.

[emulatorloo]

29. Cool -- good luck w the Presario computer and Linux! Linux is great. . .

EOM

[amber dog democrat]

2. This is Steve Jobs throwing another tantrum

We used to say there are two kinds of Apple employees:
Those who have been screwed over by Apple and those who have yet to be screwed over by Apple.

Yes, he rescued Apple from the Scully-Spindler -Gil Amileo tailspin it found its self in ( ah the days of 21% margin ! ) .

Still there was a capricious, almost whimsical and unreal quality in how it fared afterwards. You just did not want to look too closely as to why certain things were being mandated. I kind of thoght of Jobs as a kind of cult leader - and a very arbitrary one at times.

[cprise]

4. Par for the course w/any corporation

Companies are always declining to distribute things which could hurt their public image and share value. There's no reason for us to behave as if Apple stores are public libraries or like Steve Jobs is going after the book's publisher.

[frictionlessO]

5. yep and I'd be real worried about the product leaks as well...

while somewhat benign at the moment those leakers could really jeopardize OS security amongst other issues.

Also the first two posters make me happy because I really don't want Apple getting much bigger especially as far as actual comps go. They start getting around 10-15% market share and then mac OS will start being truly exploited for its flaws.

Seriously people really sholdn't buy macs if they get all weenied up over this stuff.

[MrModerate]

7. I agree that the small market share has protected Apple . . .

From attacks.

I sure as heck isn't superior security!

And to clarify things, Apple gets me weenied not only because of attitude, but because of (over)pricing, the inflexibility of the Mac user interface when compared to Windows, and the incompatibility of their products in the larger non-Apple universe.

As an example (they may have fixed this since I checked last), the proprietary format iTunes pushes, which is not only DRMed into uselessness, but compatible only with iPods, is yet another helping of obnoxious Apple behavior that causes me to shake my head and take my money elsewhere.

[frictionlessO]

8. Now now... donrt get weenied up over this but

why care??

You don't like Apple for various and sundry reasons however they are so inferior in so many ways in your book why bother being upset about them at all? Its like some guy with a harley that gets mad at the crotch rockets. Really why does it matter to you as an individual???

I use PCs at work and Macs at home I am very familiar with the argument and bias of both sides of the issue. The attitude you ascribe to apple is easily witnessed in the PC universe as well. Which in turn makes me think your drive a L/U??

I love my mac I love everything about it and will take it over any other system out there, for one reason in the end... its easier. And yes I will pay a pretty penny for ease of use. Call me a sucker or an idiot for whatever reasons you deem worthy and I'll condemn you to a world of dorkness for your choice of Ice cream.:)

[MrModerate]

19. Well, let's define "care."

I have a mild dislike of Apple's attitude. It's not something that keeps me up nights.

I only get hot under the collar when dealing with service bureaus that believe that only macs can produce decent desktop design. But I only go to such places once.

[frictionlessO]

31. Ahhh I see now.

I was hoping to get a chuckle out of you with the ice cream comment.

Comps are like that to me...

[emulatorloo]

11. IPODS PLAY MP3, WAV, AIFF, AND SEVERAL OTHER AUDIO FORMATS

So stop spreading FUD about a "Proprietary iTunes Format."

As to the format of the iTUNES music store, AAC, which is a variant of MP4 with DRM, if you think that the record companies ever let the iTunes store happen w/o copy protection, you are very very very very naive.

And if you are all informed, you know that iTunes software lets you burn an unprotected CD of your purchased music.


SO STOP SPREADING FUD.

[megatherium]

16. if they still work. Mine is broken

and I didn't have AppleCare. sob!

Probably my fault, though, I dropped it and I also left it in the car.

[MrModerate]

17. It's the AAC file format I can't stand

The fact that iPods also play other formats is irrelevant. While I'm not in love with the iPod, my objection is to AAC. It's the reason my music money -- which might otherwise be spent at iTunes -- stays in my pocket instead.

Burning an unprotected CD as a way around DRM is crazy. And frankly, the quality of a CD burned from AACs is noticeably lower than burning unprotected MP3s or WMVs.

I don't do DRM, period. iTunes' implementation is so cruddy and restrictive that it's a complete no-go for me. If I want music I get it from places that don't use DRM (eMusic is one place), or buy a CD and rip it.

Ain't no FUD here. Just consumer resistance to practices I have no intention of supporting with my money.

[emulatorloo]

20. Expecting a Legit Online Store to sell you uncopyprotected music

is still naive. The record companies won't allow it.

OTOH re burning CDs if you compare AAC MP3 or WMV at the same bitrate, I don't think your argument will hold about AAC lower quality.

But we do agree on one thing - paying cash for compressed digital audio -- that's why I still go to the store and buy CDs and rip 'em at home into iTunes at whatever format is convenient -- where as you get all nuts over bashing Apple for something any legit online store is gonna do, I get all nuts about paying money for a compressed digital format, so I don't!

[MrModerate]

22. eMusic is not a "legit online store?" n/t

[emulatorloo]

24. Funny, I do not see many/any? major Labels on eMusic's list

although it does look like a cool site!

[MrModerate]

26. Luckily for me, my tastes are not so mainstream that . . .

I'm restricted to major labels.

But your point is well taken -- record companies have enormous money and clout, and they have successfully imposed DRM on entertainment software.

But even without being mainstream, I do spend hundreds of dollars on new music a year, but I won't touch copyprotected tunes. How many billions of dollars are they missing because they won't meet the needs of people like me?

[emulatorloo]

28. Strangely we agree more than disagree --

paying for compromised dig files gets my goat -- so that's why I continue to buy CDs from my local stores or mail order stuff they don't carry.

[hoboken123]

33. How much are they missing? None.

How many billions of dollars are they missing because they won't meet the needs of people like me?


None. They can't sell them like that due to their agreement with the record companies.

Being able to instantaneously download songs for 99 cents seems like a nice option to me. Reasonable restrictions, can copy to different computers, unlimited burning to cds, better sound quality to mp3s, what's not to like?

[MrModerate]

42. Let's see -- what's not to like?

Price is OK.

Restrictions utterly unacceptable. Whoops, gotta stop there.

No, let's go on: can copy to "registered" computers. Sorry, not worth it.

Unlimited burning to computers of files that degrade when you do so. Sorry, 'nother loser.

Better sound quality? Not to my ears.

--Happy iTunes users . . . I wish you all the musical joy in the world. But it ain't gonna be me, and I'm going to keep my wallet closed except for the services that meet my requirements. And I'm not the only one out there.

[hoboken123]

45. So you can't be pleased

Price is OK.
The price is cheaper than cds.

Restrictions utterly unacceptable. Whoops, gotta stop there.
As opposed to? Wishing for the moon isn't going to make it happen.


No, let's go on: can copy to "registered" computers. Sorry, not worth it.
How many computers are you looking to simultaneously copy to? I've got mine on at least three.

Unlimited burning to computers of files that degrade when you do so. Sorry, 'nother loser.
AAC files that degrade? This I would love to see.


Better sound quality? Not to my ears.
That's more on you. Many tests have been done on this with AAC beating MP3.

--Happy iTunes users . . . I wish you all the musical joy in the world. But it ain't gonna be me, and I'm going to keep my wallet closed except for the services that meet my requirements. And I'm not the only one out there.
It doesn't sound like there's much they could do to meet your requirments. Free lossless files would be fine for me, let me know when that happens.

[hoboken123]

32. And?

You don't like an open format like AAC.

You don't like DRM(find me someone who does).

You have some notion burned AAC files are inferior to MP3 and WMV(going against many findings).

Why don't you buy cds instead?

Except for possibly eMusic(I belong to eMusic, their selection is limited), what would you be happy with? There are other sites. You could go rent mp3s from Napster, never owning them.


/never knew offering another option was a BAD thing...

[MrModerate]

41. Open format meaning what?

iTunes is the only place I've encountered AAC. In your later post you mention its use in the movie industry, but if so, it's entirely invisible, and hence irrelevant to the discussion of downloaded music.

Happy to see you agree that DRM is "unlikeable."

Admitedly, I only downloaded two albums from iTunes before quitting. In both cases, the resulting CDs were muddy and behaved oddly. Since I'd had complete success burning MP3s to a conventional audio format using the same burner, I ascribed that to a side effect of the copyprotection process. Perhaps I was wrong, but as a consumer it made me just say no. That and the bullshit about registering your computer before the music would play.

I do buy CDs. Because of the discontents listed above, they're my preferred mode of music acquisition. However, I'd like an online service that actually sold music rather than renting it. I don't see that the iTunes model and the Napster model are significantly different to the consumer. And I'm not a customer of either service for that very reason.

eMusic IS limited, but it's worth 10 bucks a month to me. Other services would also, and I'd cheerfully pay.

Offering other options is a GRAND thing. Unfortunately, iTunes -- to me at least -- is not a very attractive one.

[hoboken123]

43. Open as in Industry Standard open

AAC, an improvement over the older MP3, can be played in Winamp, iTunes, Media Player, most players I know.

You skipped over my point on Apple's DRM, so should I take that as agreement? Do you boycott dvds and vhs tapes too? The DRM on those are obscene.

However, I'd like an online service that actually sold music rather than renting it.
Right, which is what iTunes does and Napster does not. Go try Napster. You 'rent' the music, after you stop paying the music is gone.

100,000,000 songs have been d/l from iTunes. It's simple, easy to use. Get almost any song I want in a minute for 99 cents without leaving your seat. The artists get paid too, which is nice.

[cprise]

38. What proprietary format?

AAC is a movie industry standard used on DVDs. MP3 is an older standard.

AAC and MP3 can both be either DRM'd or not. MP3 seems 'freer' because its popularity exploded in the context of individuals ripping then pirating music without DRM added. AAC's popularity is the result of iTunes, so the AAC files you typically see do have DRM added.

But compare an MP3 that is downloaded from pay service to an AAC that is downloaded from iTunes store. There is not much difference as openness goes (although the AAC will sound better).

The only thing that is 'closed' about Apple's music, is that they don't provide a way for the iTunes application to access non-Apple music devices.

[cprise]

37. None of that makes sense

Wishing unpopularity on OS X for your own personal benefit is like wishing unpopularity on Apache.

The Apache web server runs about 70% of all web sites and the source code is available to anyone, yet successful attacks against the less popular and closed Microsoft IIS are far more common. Also most of the web is already run on Unix-type systems (particularly solaris and linux, and they each have much larger market share than %15); why aren't they considered insecure?

The lastest OS X security measures are always available for examination by anyone via the Open Source Darwin project. Security risk from leaks is minimal if it exists at all. Software like Darwin (Mac OS X), Linux and Apache are more secure because they are better DESIGNED in evironments were problems cannot be swept under the rug.

Security through obscurity or unpopularity is a myth and I hope Macs become much more popular at the expense of Microsoft. We're all victims of the Windows architechture whether we own a Windows system or not, and things would be far worse if they dominated the web infrastructure.

[MrModerate]

6. Yeah, so don't distribute THAT particular book . . .

But to take the whole catalog of a publisher off your shelves? Extremely.small.minded.

[northzax]

9. apple is a cult

just like many innovative corporations or organisations (hell, DU is a cult) you either drink the kool aid, or you don't. those that consume it live in an echo chamber with other drinkers and any deviation from the party line leads to shunning.

[bpilgrim]

10. jobs acts like like a child at times

but there is certainly no denying that they make superior products and he has a large role in that.


http://apple.com/macmini

peace

[Hobarticus]

13. Apparently Microsoft's paying Ralph Reed a monthly retainer...

One more reason to buy Apple.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1423249&mesg_id=1423249

[billyoc]

14. Steve who?

http://unionbuiltpc.com/shopunion/

[BiggJawn]

18. Apple GOOD! Microsoft BAAAAAAAAD!!!

Must not listen to criticism of Most Kind Computer Company in the Universe!

What? You mean THE Gates isn't the ONLY major Playah who thinks his shit is ambrosia?

Fancy that!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

30. That's why I use Linux and Free Software in general

Non-assholeness is essentially codified into law in this world.

[hoboken123]

34. Uhhhhmmmmm, what?

Could you give me a list of books he MUST sell?

[BiggJawn]

35. Yeah.

"Animal House"
"It Can't Happen HERE!"
"Little Women"
"Gone with The Wind"
"The Tao of Pooh"
"The Te of Piglet"
"Das Boot"
The Hounds of the Baskervilles"
"Moby Dick"
"Memoirs of a Lady of Leisure"

Funny, if it had been The Gates who was removing books from his company stores, you'd all be hollering for his shrivelled nuts in an eyecup...
But because it's your sainted Apple, creators of all sorts of mind-numbing toys like the I-pod and I-brator, you demand a pass for his assholey behavior...

[hoboken123]

36. Tip

There are plenty of decaf products on the market these days that taste just as good as the real thing.



BTW, Microsoft has stores?

Did not know that. Could you send me a list of all the anti-Gates books Microsoft stocks?

[BiggJawn]

39. Yes there are.

you should try some of them (the de-caf)

[hoboken123]

40. Keep trying

Still curious about those Microsoft stores...

[glitch]

44. FYI - I am looking at this as my next laptop.

Before I've just gotten sony vaio windoze and loaded linux as dual boot.
But I will not support a company that pays Ralph Reed $20k a month (edit: talking about Microsoft, not Sony).

http://www.linuxcertified.com/linux-laptop-lc2100.html

PS or this one

http://www.linuxcertified.com/linux-laptop-lc2464.html