Liberal U.S. Catholics Dismayed at Choice of Pope

[happynewyear]

BOSTON (Reuters) - Liberal U.S. Catholics on Tuesday expressed dismay at the choice of a conservative new pope and doubted he will heal an institution racked by disillusionment and tarnished by a sex abuse scandal among the clergy.

The election of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger as Pope Benedict XVI rankled those who advocate married priests, a bigger role for women within the church and softening its policy on homosexuality, birth control, euthanasia and abortion.

<snip>

"This is the guy who's been in charge of stifling dissent in the church," said lawyer Carmen Durso, who represented dozens of plaintiffs in clergy abuse lawsuits against the Boston archdiocese.


"This says to me that the Vatican ... is not prepared to move into the 21st Century, which it desperately needs to do," said Durso, who was raised Catholic but no longer practices.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050419/ts_nm/pope_usa_dc

Glad I am not alone, ashamed, but not alone.

[saigon68]

1. you mean --- is not prepared to move into the 8th Century

[Merlin]

7. Ohh! That is REALLLY unfair! Come On, now. Eighth Century my foot.

They're at least into the 14th.

Oh, all right, maybe the 12th.

[leftchick]

9. yes indeed

much more like medieval times are upon us. Or would that be the 10th century?

[nine30]

14. Not true

Radical Islam belongs in the 6th Century (Mohmd, OBL, Zarqawi, etc). I would put Radical Christianity ahead by at least two hundred years

[Bo]

21. ..at least they admit earth is not the center of universe

pedos OK gays NO

[saigon68]

34. They did forgive Galileo

Or was it Copernicus?

[Brooklyn Michael]

69. It was Galileo...

...and it only took 350 some-odd years for them (specifically JPII) to admit that, hey, sorry, Galileo was right...our bad.

"...and yet, it moves."

:banghead:

[saigon68]

77. Nothing like a "SPEEDY RETRACTION"

Oh well, that's the way they burned them at the STAKE.

[arewenotdemo]

51. lol...glad you caught that mistake.

[hector459]

66. Going to be difficult to fill those coffers. I wish him all the best.

Maybe he will receive a true REVELATION for God. It would be nice to hear from someone God really speaks to.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[happynewyear]

4. yep be against something that is wrong

and they call you a "liberal". What a crock of crap.

[vpigrad]

5. Yes, all ten of them are mad (ntxt)

[calimary]

23. Um... there are a few more than ten of us.

I'm one of oh - maybe - uh - a few MILLION. And not only do we NOT show up for Mass anymore because we've been so alienated, our wallets and checkbooks don't show up for Mass anymore, either.

CNN last week had some reporting on how the Vatican is operating in the red. They are starting to hurt for money. And most of the donations that support the Roman Catholic Church come from America. This victory will come with a very bitter taste in Vatican City. They'll have their conservative pope and their conservative papal bulls and edicts and all the rest. And they'll still be wondering why their churches in North America are turning into vast echo chambers with fewer and fewer members, and collection plates that are as vacant as the pews.

I was hoping to go back to church on Sundays a little more frequently, assuming there might be some fresh air blowing through those stale corridors (after just being left nauseous about the shitty way they've handled the molestation crisis). But I won't be back. Not now. Not for a LONG time. And neither will my purse.

And trust me, babycakes, I'm not alone by ANY means. And BTW - it's not us liberals who left the church, it's the church that's left us.

[Eloriel]

25. Of all the endless (and I do mean endless) Pope coverage,

yours is the first bit ANYwhere that's given me any hope at all. Thanks.

[calimary]

30. Eloriel - try this:

Wrote it last week, suspecting that by the time I got it out this week, the decision would have been made.

http://www.democrats.us/editorial/lyon041305.shtml

And take heart (like the rest of us have been forced to do) - there are many of us out here. And we are comforted by each other - in constantly mushrooming numbers. But it's DAMNED frustrating, I know.

[primavera]

72. It sounds like Benedict doesn't care about defections

Judging from what the pundits are saying, he's quite comfortable, indeed even enthusastic, losing large numbers of Catholics from the Church in order to create a more disciplined, organized nexus of hardcore, and it is from that base that he is expecting to see a revitalized Catholic restoration emerge. I think he's dreaming, but, since I'm not Catholic, I confess the prospect of the Church driving itself deeper into its own grave of irrelevancy doesn't trouble me all that much.

[lanlady]

41. also losing members in Latin America

NPR did a report on the growing popularity of Pentacostalism ever since Rome suppressed liberation theology.

[BadNews]

44. Pentacostalism?

I lived in Brazil for a while. Pentacostalism is much different there than here.

Pentacostals are Fundies without power. The Assembly of God Church mandates women always wear dresses, don't cut their hair, and not wear make-up. The pentacostals are growing, but that is not a good thing for progressives. Shoot, the Mormons are probably the fastest growing church in Latin America. The Catholics are no longer the only game in town, but Christianity still may as well be. And it is still, by far, the largest denomination.

[Zhade]

81. "the Mormons are probably the fastest growing church in Latin America"

Man, I HOPE that's not true. Scary thought - a created-from-whole-cloth cult like that growing so fast is not a good thing.

(Full disclosure: I'm an ex-Mormon.)

[VirginiaDem]

67. Either you or NPR have it backwards--protestant

Evangelicalism was a right-wing response to liberation theology. It's a conservative political thing. Guatemala, where I spent several months back in the day, provides a strong example. They've got as much as 35-40% protestants now. They're more political--the answer is not in making life better here on earth by fighting the powers (so they say) but rather by accepting Jesus and knowing that you'll get yours in the end. Unfortunately, it often really comes down to Maria. I remember walking into a post office (government office, doncha know)and seeing a sign on the wall that said something like "Whosoever does not believe in Maria is a liar!" So people ask you up front when they meet you (every once in a while) Do you believe in Maria?
The phenomenon even has a color--light blue, for some reason. Everywhere you go in Latin America, little church on side of road with Carolina blue colors is protestant. I wonder if they have a mascot...

[TygrBright]

84. Dang, that's WEIRD!

I thought the Mary cult was one of the things the Protestants left Rome about.

bewilderedly,
Bright

[arewenotdemo]

53. Don't EVER go back, calimary. Freethinkers rock!

[SharonAnn]

56. And I left some time ago, especially with my purse. I also tell

the local pastor that since the Church doesn't think that I and other women shouldn't have any roles in the Church like Priest, Deacon, Lector, Altar Attendant, etc. because we don't count, then surely our money doesn't count either.

[Patiod]

73. Lots do show up for Mass, teach CCD, etc.

I have at least one fiercely Progressive Catholic friend who is still "fighting from within" (I left 10 years ago and became a Quaker), and many more who have stayed "for the kids".

I also have a lot who are like you, Calimary, and are alienated in some way and don't show up (one who married a divorced man, and was told she was an "adulteress" when they went to register at thier new parish, although the priest didn't label her husband, he one who was divorced)

Here's my question to folks who don't think there are many liberal Catholics still attending Church -- why aren't the pews filled with families of 8 or 10 kids like they were in my parents' day? Why so many small families? My parents claim that people haven't gotten "good at using the rhythym method". Yeah, rhythym method my ass -- they're using BIRTH CONTROL, which right there makes them liberal in some respects (or at least willing to part ways with Church teaching).

All of our Catholic friends (and most of our friends self-identify as Catholic, not surprising since my SO went to a Catholic college) I know exactly ONE who was a virgin at their marriage. This includes the hard-core never-miss-Mass types. Another place they were willing to part ways with church teaching.

Unlike my Protestant friends, who are comfortable switching denominations to accommodate a marriage or a move, Catholics are loathe to leave the Church of their birth. I think a lot stay in spite of their differences because they can't even imagine being anything else, or they don't want to part ways with their extended families.

[Zhade]

80. Good for you! Catholics like you make me smile.

NT!

[TygrBright]

83. Yep... and it's sad...

>>And BTW - it's not us liberals who left the church, it's the church that's left us.<<

At the end of the Second Vatican Council, it looked as though things were actually starting to improve.

Paul VI, while he was a bit nutso on the subject of birth control, did a good job of holding the VII line and keeping the reaction from getting out of hand. Latterly, he slipped a bit, and the reactionaries gained some ground, but that's normal, and could have been overcome had JPI lived to fulfill his promise.

JPII didn't look too bad in the first 5-10 years, but latterly his Mary fixation and his essential conservatism took over, and the appointment of Ratzo to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith let the dam burst and put the neo-Medievalists back in the saddle.

Too bad, really. At one point the Church was poised for a real resurgence, and could have reached heights of influence, active membership, and spiritual leadership it hasn't had for a long time (if ever.)

disappointedly,
Bright

[leftchick]

12. um...It may sound like an oxymoron to you but

I am one. There actually are very many here in the US that struggle for a Liberal voice in the Church. Much like the Democratic party struggles for a voice in this government. Both seem pretty damn futile these day.

[Rich Hunt]

17. why are you laughing

Let me see...you must not be living in the United States if you think there are no liberal US Catholics.

Do us a favor - if you're not Catholic, or weren't raised Catholic, don't make claims you can't support.

[matcom]

19. feel free to visit my GD thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3508104

[saigon68]

61. Adios

[Warpy]

3. People are already talking about a rift in the church

in the Americas if Ratzinger goes all Teutonic and authoritarian. Liberal Catholics are a majority, and dogmatically more in tune with the Anglican Church. Whether or not they finally throw their hands up in utter disgust and make the move is anyone's guess.

Or they may do what they're doing now, use birth control, tolerate gays, approve of the concept of reproductive choice, and sign Granny's DNR so she'll get a full measure of pain control whether or not it hastens her death- then lie about it all in the confessional.

Considering Ratzinger's insanity regarding condoms, the world can't afford him. I think there may indeed be a split.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. I think yuo are right

and it makes you wonder why choose a man who will push for a schism?

[RPM]

8. then they should join martin luther and leave the church

a few hundred years late isnt too late...

[Tempest]

16. Many are and joining the Protestants

The Roman Catholic church is a dinosaur doomed to extinction.

[Rich Hunt]

20. fine with me

As long as they don't become a bunch of nasty, humorless Calvinists, they should join whatever church they are most comfortable with. Some of the more liberal churches could use the membership.

[orpupilofnature57]

10. How did kkkarl, get in to Vatican city?Was the "Grand Inquisitor"

Ever considered for pope? What kind of christian is he?

[Placebo]

11. As Cardinal, New Pope Confronted Americans

As a Roman Catholic cardinal, the new Pope Benedict XVI warned American voters against departing from church teaching at the ballot box, drew criticism from victims of clerical sex abuse and opposed married or women priests.

U.S. Catholics may come to admire the former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger for his intellect, spirituality and consistent support for the traditions of their faith — qualities he's already shown in 24 years as the head of the Vatican's doctrinal watchdog agency.

But as with John Paul II, the majority of American Catholics seem certain to diverge from him on numerous policy issues.

"In America, he has many avid supporters, but many who are not so keen on the power he has wielded," observes Chester Gillis, theology chairman at Georgetown University. His elevation "is not going to be received unequivocally with great admiration by all American Catholics — no question about that."

More...

[Plaid Adder]

13. "Dismayed" should win some kind of prize for understatement

I'm literally sick to my stomach thinking about it.

:puke:

The Plaid Adder

[Mari333]

15. Watch even more ex Catholics surface

I left a longg time ago..and I will never go back. The church is going to be in dire straits in the US at this rate.

[nine30]

18. New Pope is a Bush appointee.

[Eloriel]

37. Best line yet

LOL.

[RedCloud]

74. And it appears he is anti-Kerry

How does that chowder head Bush do it? He goes to the Vatican and gets some conservative guy in there. Did he offer them megabucks or more dead non-Christians?

[nine30]

78. Goose stepping into the Vatican

I bet the Pope did (or will do someday ) just that.
When the Pope was a teen the Fuhrer was his boss. And now he has found his perfect partner across the Atlantic !

[Megahurtz]

75. I bet you're right on.

:(

[cloudythescribbler]

22. progressives around the world need to mobilize

I was advocating that progressives around the world mobilize before the conclave met to demand publicly at least a greater balance in the Church. This would have put progressives in a better position to DO something rather than just handwring now.

There needs to be global mobilization to address the need for greater progressive politics in the Church. This should start now, on the web, with Catholics starting a PERMANENT open conclave, not just or mainly for women (like the women-church convergence group worth checking out) but on THE WHOLE INSTITUTION. This mobilization should be global, uniting first and third world concerns and not merely or primarily focusing on sex related issues.

The key issue it seems is the emphasis issue, one that is less a matter of doctrine than of strategy, at least in theory, but which reveals the basis of much of the other doctrine. By placing greater emphasis on issues like abortion and contraception than on issues where the Church has a relatively progressive position, such as the environment, economic social justice and peace the Church has been pulling its punches vis-a-vis the capitalist "family" elite in the West, all the general talk about "materialism" notwithstanding.

I am reminded of a Justice and Peace newsletter from the (arch?)diocese of San Francisco about 15 years ago, to the effect that "clearly" Catholic politicians can take any political positions they want, except on the issue of abortion, where the Church's position is "clear". (using the word 'clear' twice in the same sentence in the original). This reflects that it isn't being merely pro-life on both the environment AND abortion, but paying more than lip service to the first but decisively less dedication to its more progressive pro-life agenda. This is an issue that should be the basis of global networking and protest, from blogs to marches and candlelight vigils, in the face of protestations and condemnation including from "reformers" primarily concerned with not rocking the boat.

If progressive Catholics and other progressives around the world don't do this, a great chance to try to save the environment from destruction and the world from the triumph of militarism and imperialism will have been squandered. It is a major and essential part of a global strategy for progressives on these issues.

CLOUDY

[orpupilofnature57]

24. Liberal Christians are the clear opposite of fundamentalists, of all types

[cap]

33. progressive Catholics are sitting silent in the pews

even Pax Christi, Catholic Worker, National Catholic Reporter, Grey Nuns dont dare utter a peep.

[davidinalameda]

38. that's the problem right there

they're in the pews

they shouldn't be in the pews--they have no business being members of the Catholic Church; they're supporting the church's stances by being in those pews and sitting quietly while the priests spread their hate in their sermons

the church is corrupt and can't be saved from the inside; it needs to be torn down and rebuilt

the election of the new pope is evidence of this

[BadNews]

42. Can't be changed from within.

Why do you want to change it at all? I'm not Catholic, but I see it as their business, not mine. If you don't believe in the Dogma, leave the pews. But let them believe whatever they want. If the world leaves them behind, what concern is it of yours?

[SangamonTaylor]

55. I think Pope Benedict should check his door

[cap]

60. anticlericalism is part of the Catholic tradition

Europe and Latin America have gone through major phases where the hierarchy was out of sink with the laity. that's why we wont leave...
the hierarchy has left us.

[Zhade]

26. In a way, this may be good.

It could accelerate the impending death of the church's central authority, as more and more Catholics of conscience realize the organization is stuck in the Middle Ages with regards to some teachings.

Just my silver lining, I suppose.

[BadNews]

29. Or, maybe not.

I think we will see the new pope go on a road trip. John Paul showed that by traveling to the masses of South America, and Africa, his high profile would gain attention and promote faith. In essence, he reenergized the base, and the membership grew.

I would expect this pope to do the same as long as his health holds out. Currently, he is not seen as a pope for the people. Yet, if he makes similar apperances to what JPII did, I would expect a rebound for the Catholic Church. It will bring many who have lapsed in church attendance back to the fold.

The fact that he is conservative is no change from JPII. What can/will he do that is more conservative than JPII? Nothing. As the populous gets to know him, he will quickly rise in stature among the faithful.

I think if you are expecting some sort of major backlash, you will be quite disappointed. There may be a good number that leave the church, but if anything, Catholic Church attendance will be strengthened. I think that will even be true here in America. I think the the number of progressives within the church is smaller than we would like to believe.

[cap]

32. yeah... all those heavily Catholic blue states

that keep voting for gay marriage, pro-choice, forcing pharmacists to fill prescriptions...

ya shoulda been at my pre-Cana where we had some insane couple touting the use of NFP when the wife's life was in danger if she got pregnant...
there was a glum bunch in that room...

[Zhade]

35. Nice cut-and-paste from the other thread.

I still think you are wrong, and I think that the autocratic RCC losing influence can't be anything but good.

[BadNews]

40. Thanks, Glad you noticed.

:-) :-)

[piece sine]

36. I fear his personal power

Even before today, Ratzinger has risen to unprecedented power and influence in the Vatican under JPII. I see him as JPII's Dick Cheney, with a deeper bench on theology and dogma. Plus, as head of college of Cardinal he was already both Speaker and Majority Leader.

Ratzinger is no pastoral "governor" from the hinterland riding in like Reagan to clean-up the Vatican. Au contraire... Mr. Vatican insider himself, holding all the aces, swept the table in four hands. JP II was well-intended Mr. Outsider. He could end-up looking like Goldilocks next to wily Pope Benedict.

The magnitude of Papal power has never fallen into such eager and well-prepared hands as Ratzinger's. This is a man who willed himself to be Pope. And we can only presume he's cut this wide swath to obtain the highest level power on Earth for a reason. He is, after all, the one behind JPII who made him buck-up when it came asserting dogma into everyday life.

I suggest those few practicing Catholics I know who seek a faith in more progressive pastures to just let go of the big RC. They are no only "not-budging" on dogma, today they put up a 100-foot wall around it. Mr. Dogma himself is now in charge in dogma. The perfect storm in theological terms.

As an Ex-Cat I'm telling you now....this guy's a tsunami of disappointment for modern thinkers, whether you're Catholic or not.

Now we ALL have to deal with Cardinal Ratzinger, He's not just for the downtrodden Vatican worker bees anymore. Now he's our problem.

[arewenotdemo]

54. I recently saw a photograph of the last pope meeting a

congregation of people from the medical center where I work, educated people...scientists, nurses, doctors, etc.

And the looks of utter ecstasy on the faces of those simple fools was just too much. The Beatles weren't even bigger.

Nothing but celebrity worship and the same reason California has a Nazi for a governor.

There's no hope for the brain-dead. Unless their local priest buggers their boys. But most of the time that isn't even enough.

[DanCa]

27. A new Church

As someone who recently struggled with the consequences of changing from the Catholic Church for the Episcopal Church let me just say that it hurts. It's more than just a change of venue or a change of buildings and I am amazded at the cavalier attitude of some of the posters about this. Of course I may just be over emotional because I didn't leave by choice.
Anyhow with that said too any of my liberal catholic brethren out there who are thinking of leaving the romans let me say this the Episcopal church is genuinely warm and the services are typically non-politcal, and the hymns are familiar too. Have a gentle and healthy day all.

[calimary]

71. Welcome to DU. Your words are MUCH appreciated.

It's a HUGE struggle - one that I am still having. I don't want to say, or even consider, that I've actually, formally, officially LEFT the church. I've been a Catholic all my life.

Some of the posters here with the cavalier attitude you cite just probably don't identify exactly. It's a rawther delicate predicament, and perhaps a few haven't had to face disconnecting from something that you were almost literally born into. And for me, just over 50 years' worth of participation in something is a little bit hard to break. I guess it would be like deciding you can't be a liberal or a Democrat anymore. Don't be too hard on 'em.

But mainly, I think you and I and others in our dilemma should not be too hard on OURSELVES. This is shit. It's really difficult, and it IS to one degree or other life-changing. Which can be scary. I vacillate between "Oh, just fuck 'em" and "...but I CAN'T leave - who would be left to push for reforms, even if only small ones..."

Thanks for your post.

I think MY "church" has always been with me, however. I keep being reminded of this old comic strip in the Sunday papers - "Rick O'Shay" - about a baby-faced sheriff from the Old West and his rugged, chisel-faced, black-clothed loner friend Hipshot. One Sunday, the townsfolk were all going to church. The frames of the strip showed Rick and his lady friend at their respective houses getting dressed up and ready to go. Clusters of people were heading to the front doors of the town church. But not Hipshot. He was seen walking toward his horse, getting on, and trotting toward the outskirts of town. And farther. Out into the hills. The last frame of that week's strip showed him way up in the mountains with snow-capped peaks, towering trees, huge, craggy boulders, a beautiful babbling stream tripping over some of them and cascading down in little waterfalls through reeds and shrubs and more neat little rocks tucked in at the feet of various stately pines. The sky, blue as a Sri Lankan sapphire, had perfectly-placed tufts of clouds in it here and there, as you looked out, through the trees to this spectacular panorama of utterly pristine, untouched mountains and canyons and forests. And ol' Hipshot stood there, face tilted slightly upward, and murmured a quiet greeting to his Lord.

That particular strip has stayed with me since I was maybe ten years old or something. "Rick O'Shay" used to run every day in the Sunday L.A. Times and it was one of my favorites. I liked the way it was drawn. But THAT particular strip was just an absolute masterpiece. And not just visually. I remember thinking, even back then, how much that whole idea made sense, and how utterly comfortable I was with it.

[Bob3]

He should had named himself Pius XIII

and made the connection absolutely clear. A Withered life hating cleric is in charge of the church. And John the XXIII is spinning in his grave. Good luck to anyone with a human heart that will try and stay in this Church.

[saigon68]

31. Seig Heil

Catholic Bishops giving the Nazi salute in honor of Hitler





Hitler greets Müller the "Bishop of the Reich" and Abbot Schachleitner






Hitler wth Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin, 1935

On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany" and added with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.

[Megahurtz]

76. LOL!!!

Totally.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rocketdude]

39. The Church wouldn't have changed it's stance no matter who was elected.

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster.

Does anyone really believe there is a Cardinal in the world who, if elected would have changed the Church's position on abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality, or birth control?

[Rainscents]

43. However, this new pope is against all womens care...

They could had at least pick someone who will carry on JP 11.

[BadNews]

46. How so? What's the difference? NT/

[zipplewrath]

65. It's the priority

No, I don't believe the most liberal pope would have been able to alter the fundamental orthodoxy. However, much like the "what's wrong with Kansas" theory, the amazing issue is that a church beset by a rough history and serious issues within the hierarchy would choose to emphasize issues of little concern to the vast majority of their flock. The vast majority of PRACTICING catholics aren't getting abortions. They aren't homosexuals. The issues they face a fundamental kinds of issues of faith, and sacrifice and these are the issues which should be the focus of the church. His "moral relativism" is less about homosexuality than it is about cheating on your taxes, or trash talking about ones neighbor. They have a serious issue with active engagement by the laity, not to mention the serious trouble they have with recruiting priests and nuns. These are the fundamental issues the church faces.

But in addition, JP II started addressing the "sins of the past" but there is SO much to do there, including instituting changes in the church to ensure that they don't happen again. Sister Dorthy taught that forgiveness took on 5 features. 1) admitting the sin 2) expressing remorse to the aggrieved 3) asking for forgiveness 4) penance 5) committing to changing. The church has barely begun #1 and #2. They really haven't done #3 to any great degree and #4 and 5 are still pending. There's a couple of thousand years of penance waiting. We really ought to get started.

[IndianaGreen]

45. Okay, so the Conclave elected Torquemada Pope

My main concern is what will the new Pope's attitude going to be towards Israel and Jews. JPII made up for centuries of Catholic persecution of Jews. Will the panzer Pope follow JP's footsteps, or will he backslide the Church back to the Middle Ages?

I miss the Polish Pope...

[BadNews]

48. Panzer Pope. NICE!

I don't forsee much change. Especially if he had as much influence within JPII as many believe he had. That would have changed long ago.

[IndianaGreen]

49. Keith Olbermann disclosed that "panzer Cardinal" had been Ratzinger's

nickname given by his detractors.

[lovuian]

47. The Enforcer!!! he's called!!!

This is a guy who would burn heretics at the stake!!!

[Charon]

63. The Enforcer

A position that he was appointed to by JPII

[warrens]

50. Speaking on behalf of altar boys everywhere....I scared. nt

[Kelvin Mace]

52. Dismayed?

Try effin' HORRIFIED!

[TheDonkey]

57. This choice is very sad. (nt)

[MurrayDelph]

58. Anyone want to start a pool

on how soon he retracts the Papal apology to Galileo?
(edit: This was supposed to be a reply to #34)

[saigon68]

62. The apology took something like 400 years

They hierarchy are not going to make a "HASTY" pronouncement.

[Erika]

59. And he spoke against Kerry

Let's go after the 10% exemption.

[JerseygirlCT]

64. Heck, if they could move into the 20th century, that would be

something...

No, this isn't a good thing.

[selmo7]

68. Matthew Fox on Panzer Pope RAT -

IMO yesterday was a VERY SAD day for Catholics - Is it no accident that it is prophesized that THIS will be the last Pope? I believe he will further run the Roman Catholic Church into oblivion.

(don't know if this was already posted, my apologies if this is a repeat.)

http://www.opednews.com/foxMatthew_041905_ratzinger.htm

On Ratzinger, the New Pope Benedict XVI ; Ratzinger

by Matthew Fox

www.OpEdNews.com

"Why should we be surprised that the current Catholic hierarchy, who elevated Cardinal Law the poster boy for pedophile clergy, to a special place of power in Rome, has just elected Cardinal Ratzinger as pope? The “Yes Men” of Pope John Paul II’s church have chosen one of their own who is guaranteed to play the Punitive Father."

[saigon68]

82. I watched the stunning CORONATION on TV

A lot of most white guys over age 75, who professed to care about the poor etc.

They looked sleek, prosperous in their gold jewelry$$$, well fed , and totally into the moment.

I wonder how many of them would go out into some dusty town in Africa and wash the feet of a couple of dying gay men with aids?

[Toots]

70. I am not Catholic so shouldn't even be opening my mouth but here goes

The Catholic church is rapidly becoming irrelevent. The words of Jesus are no longer even mentioned let alone followed. The Church has succombed to Power and Glory and no longer acting in a Godly manner. Jesus was not a Conservative and I doubt he would have ever covered up child molestation to save his church a black eye. According to prophecy this guy will not last long and is the second to last pope ever. I suspect he will hasten the breakup of the Church. How this guy can be related in any manner to The Glory of the Olive remains to be seen but I don't believe his brand of religion will do much healing in the world.. Why would such a man want to interfere in our Politics? What does the Church have to gain by backing a War Monger (Bush*) against a true Catholic who had been an Alter Boy (Kerry) the exact opposite position of Pope John Paul II who was opposed to the Iraq War and had some mighty unpleasant things to say about Bush* and American Aggression. The one thing (probably the only thing) Liberals have on their side is Reason. This choice for a Pope is not reasonable. IMHO

[Zhade]

79. More truthful headline: Catholics of Conscience Dismayed at Choice of Pope

There are true conservative Catholics that find Ratzinger a horrible choice, too. Anyone with a sense of decency does.

[saigon68]

85. He has little or no decency

[Zhade]

86. I'd go with the latter.

NT!