LAT: Dean Says Democrats Will Make Schiavo Case an Election Issue

[NoPasaran]

Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean said Friday that his party would wield the Terri Schiavo case against Republicans in the 2006 and 2008 elections, but for now needed to stay focused battling President Bush on Social Security.

"We're going to use Terri Schiavo later on," Dean said of the brain-damaged Floridian who died last month after her feeding tube was removed amid a swarm of political controversy.

Dean, who has called congressional intervention in the Schiavo case "political grandstanding," singled out House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Texas) for his leading role in the matter.

"This is going to be an issue in 2006, and it's going to be an issue in 2008," Dean told about 200 people at a gay rights group's breakfast in West Hollywood, "because we're going to have an ad with a picture of Tom DeLay saying, 'Do you want this guy to decide whether you die or not? Or is that going to be up to your loved ones?' "

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-dean16apr16.story

[Maine-ah]

1. "We're going to use Terri Schiavo later on,"

I don't like that particular phrase. Dean should have said that differently, perhaps, we're going to use the republican's stance on TS case against them... or something like that. The way he said it sounds kind of bad. But I am glad that they will use it.

[JerseygirlCT]

26. Yeah. SO wish he hadn't said that. nt

[Barkley]

49. I wonder if Americans will remember who Terri Schiavo was in 2006 or 08?

Dean has a good idea, but its probable that Americans
will not remember the case and/ or not be interested in it.

Still, the Democrats need to bring up how the Republicans
used big gov't to intrude in to the private lives of ordinary
people regarding very, very private matters.

[janx]

53. I'd like to see a transcript. That sounds very much like

a response to a question.

[nonconformist]

96. Agree. I cringed when I read it. nt

[Luminous Animal]

2. Big fucking mistake (n/t)

[saracat]

5. Yup. Really stupid.Didn't anyone learn from the Martinez memo??

I am sure he meant raise the issue, and we should, but this is really stupid. Think before you speak! What a concept.

[Montauk6]

28. Oh, Martinez, forget about it...

By the time the people have long forgotten him they'll have this Dean soundbite/quote engraved in their malleable minds. Remember "YARRRGH"?

[HereSince1628]

11. I agree, the people want neither party making hay out of this

Moreover, the Dems need to be ready to run against the strengths of Republican candidates this sure isn't a Republican strong spot.

[NashVegas]

15. Yes and No

Mistake to show the cards.

But it's a good card.

[TahitiNut]

30. Agreed. Dems would be imbeciles not to use an issue where 75% of the ...

...voters disagree with what the Fascist Fucks did in using the Congress for Social Oppression. It's an issue than can be tailored for each race - perfect political grist.

What true (liberal) Democrats should also do is use it in the primaries to hoist the DLC (blue dog) Democrats on their own petard.

I can't help but suspect that those in this thread who whine about using this as an issue are DLC/BlueDog (Fascist Lite) supporters. Am I getting more skeptical? Ubetcha.

[NashVegas]

33. I Think So Too

Either that or they've become so beaten they don't know a gift when they see it.

Anyway, here's what I'd like to think Dean was/is doing: I'm at an attitude where it's an 80% likely foregone conclusion Delay is going to be toast when January 1, 2006, rolls around and the Dems are already prepared for that. I'd like to think that, that being the case, he's putting this out to make it look like this is the best ammo we've got when there's actually plenty in reserve.

I hope.

[TahitiNut]

48. DeLay's fall would merely make the issue more potent in '06.

The more kicking, screaming, and lying DeLay does before he's hoisted on the Fascist petard, the better. DeLay is not a sympathetic character, even among Fascists. After all, he's "The Hammer" - and he can take it. Macho. Strongman. When such bullies fall, their followers kick the corpse in a ritualistic "we're tough" fashion. Thus, the mantra of "follower of a failed and corrupt leadership" and "member of a jack-booted cabal intruding upon a family tragedy" will be effective, methinks. Nobody's gonna try to defend their Shiavo position by raising the spectre of DeLay.

Is there better ammo? Sheesh! It's beyond comprehension that teeming hordes of people haven't burnt the White House to the ground just to disinfect it. I personally can't comprehend how all of it isn't ammo.

[bklyncowgirl]

3. Schaivo falls into a pattern of Republicans Theocratizing

Schaivo needs to be shown as a part of the whole.

It sounds like Bill Frist may be helping the Democrats out with his little speech about the filibuster being used to persecute people of faith.

Done right this could be very good. But watch how you say these things, Doc. You stayed out of this case and that was appropriate but this should be about the general Republican assault on our rights--Democrats need to take the high ground on this--it's a much better place to throw rocks from anyway.

[janx]

39. I think that was the point.

Dems did not attack on this right away, and that was appropriate. The government's involvement in the Schiavo case was just another major attempt at theocratical rule and big government inserting itself in private places where it doesn't belong.

So far, Dems have taken the high ground. But I will expect nothing less than Dems pulling out all the stops on this and other civil rights matters, including gay rights, in the not-too-distant future. They'd better.

[madfloridian]

47. No, he said it just right. We took the high ground too long.

And they control it all anyway. What they did on the Schiavo case was dangerous. They threatened judges. They are threatening our system of checks and balances.

[KittyWampus]

50. No, He Really Did NOT. Why Not Be Honest And Admit It Sounds Bad?

[madfloridian]

52. I am the first to criticize if I disagree. See my posts from yesterday.

What they did was criminal. He is putting them on notice. Don't use the "be honest" thing.

[MollyStark]

107. Sounds okay to me

Democrats should remind voters what the republicans tried to do, subverting the constitution and destroying our system of checks and balances.

[janx]

111. Darn right!

;-)

[KittyWampus]

136. If GOP Said Samething You'd Be Screaming.

[Cha]

145. The gop wouldn't be saying the

SAME thing because we didn't start playing god in congress with the Terry Schiavo Family Matter!

[delhurgo]

147. Agreed.

And not only does it sound bad, like political exploitation, but its telegraphing your punches.

I'm starting to think maybe Dean really is a loose cannon. I was against him for being the Pres nominee, but I thought he'd be a good Party Chair. Now I'm beginning to wonder. He said something really stupid about race about a month ago too.

Just have to hope people forget he said it.

[madfloridian]

151. It is political. I hope no one forgets what he said.

"This is going to be an issue in 2006, and it's going to be an issue in 2008," Dean told the 200 attendees, "because we're going to have an ad with a picture of Tom DeLay saying, 'Do you want this guy to decide whether you die or not? Or is that going to be up to your loved ones?'"

"The issue is: Are we going to live in a theocracy where the highest powers tell us what to do? Or are we going to be allowed to consult our own high powers when we make very difficult decisions?"

Excellent statements.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

4. %t$£qfeajv klsdaj flkj£$tiol£ajfWLFJLK;A

!!!!!

::sigh::

[non sociopath skin]

6. Dean needs to tread very warily with this, methinks.

Can't see folks taking any more kindly to the Dems politicising a family matter than they did when the Repugs did it.

It needs to be seen as part of a package on the whole Fundamentalism v. Palliative Care issue.

The Skin

[CTLawGuy]

228. how is Dean politicizing it?

He's not talking about Terri Schiavo, he's talking about how the Republicans butted in on a private family matter for political gain.

How can it be that pointing out political exploitation is itself political exploitation?

[Gman]

7. My knee jerk response to this

was to say, "Yeah!". But after reading the above posts, it would be a big mistake. People wouldn't like either party politicizing this.

[TroglodyteScholar]

8. I *would* think this was a mistake, except...

...except for the fact that NOBODY but us Dems are paying attention to anything Dean says right now. Don't sweat it. The spotlight isn't on him right now, and he knows it. I agree he should be more careful with his phrasing, but this really isn't a big political mistake at all.

<3 Dean

[Montauk6]

29. Please don't underestimate the consoviets

You can bet the farm and Aunt May Bell's bloomers that the Evil Machine follows the good doctor's every word diligently. They certainly didn't ignore the I-hate-the-Republicans comment.

[madfloridian]

42. Stop worrying about what they think of what we do.

This was a good way to warn them about playing God.

[TroglodyteScholar]

98. ...And?

They certainly didn't ignore the I-hate-the-Republicans comment.

And how, exactly, did that do us irreparable damage? The Republican leadership (and even a lot of the peons) are worthy of our hatred. I-hate-the-Republicans = I-have-a-spine-and-I-won't-back-down-simply-because-Republicans-can-dish-it-but-can't-take-it.

I think maybe you shouldn't OVERestimate the conservatives. If there's anything they CAN NOT tolerate (and, fortunately, that makes them act and look like babies), it's Dems standing up to them on issues where they've clearly gone insane.

[Montauk6]

177. Look...

I hope to God and the heavens above that you're right. I really do; I plead violently that my cynicism is overwrought.

Believe it or not, I'm not OVERestimating anyone (OK, MAYBE I'm underestimating the smarts of the American people as I still scratch my head wondering a la Michael Moore, if Nov 2004 was just a bad dream); I'm taking the machine at face value. These people (sic) are ruthless, evil, disgusting, devoid of ANY sense of humanity... but they're damned good at what they do; they have, over 2 or 3 generations, perfected the art of sweetening the Kool-Aid.

But I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, so how does this relate?

"We're going to use Terri Schiavo" BOOM, it's out there. Whatever the intent is no matter if Dean has to explain or clarify down the line, and by that time, we'll ONCE AGAIN be on the defensive with the Goops going nuts with, "Y'see??? Them librulls were the ones who were all about exploiting this poor child of God. CULTURE OF DEATH! CULTURE OF DEATH!!" And so on...

Now, if Howard & Co. follows through and blast, I MEAN, BLAST their asses with a truth campaign like you've never seen. Ads upon ads reminding the people (because people have the memory of a rusted out Tandy at the bottom of a river) of how insane these thugs are, and on top of that, he maintains the attitude--"That's right, I said, 'We're gonna USE Terri Schiavo; you gotta problem with that???"--then, there's absolutely nothing to worry about; bully is trapped and checkmate.

So, believe me, it's not about OVERestimating the cons; it's simply a matter of knowing the cockroach in its habitat.

Peace (and again your point's well taken and I do hope it bears out).

[TroglodyteScholar]

201. I hope I'm right, too...... ;)

"We're going to use Terri Schiavo" BOOM, it's out there. Whatever the intent is no matter if Dean has to explain or clarify down the line, and by that time, we'll ONCE AGAIN be on the defensive with the Goops going nuts with, "Y'see??? Them librulls were the ones who were all about exploiting this poor child of God. CULTURE OF DEATH! CULTURE OF DEATH!!" And so on...

You're right about how well the Repugs "sweeten the Kool-Aid" (great phrase, there)...Lucky for us, though, Tom Delay had already outdone Dean on the topic of using Schiavo...before Dean ever opened his mouth. Delay, Jeb, Georgie, etc...didn't even bother stating it would be an issue. They saw it and they jumped ALL OVER IT in a most shameful manner. Anyone calling Dean out on this statement will surely be greeted with a thorough lesson in all-too-recent history.

The fact remains that, even though many Repugs are distancing themselves from Delay now, they were ALL on board when they thought the madness might actually play out to their advantage. Dean probably misspoke, granted, as Dems won't be using Schiavo herself as an issue...they'll really be using the Rethug leadership's INSANE reactions against them.

I understand the view that Dean made a mistake, but I think this pales in comparison to the circus that all the "culture of life" group reflexively stirred up...and I have no doubt in Dean's ability to express that fact when the time is appropriate. I think if election-year scrutiny was an issue _right now_, what Dean said would probably be tragic. Luckily, everyone's so tired of the election-year political clusterfuck that not much of the public is really paying attention to anything but celebrity scandal and other "news" diversions generated by the whore media to remove the focus from real issues.

Your points are well-taken, too, but I prefer to hold optimistic trust in Dean's judgment and abilities in a time when he's fairly removed from the spotlight. Right now, the media have no incentive to further massacre his public image. Let's have some Michael Jackson nonsense, instead, since nobody's seeking office right now... :eyes:

[Montauk6]

216. Your points are great as well...

I just hope that Repug shenanigans are STILL fresh in folks' minds!

Now, as to Michael Jackson ;-) , you're gonna wanna kick my ass on this one, but you know where I've been finding truly balanced coverage of the whole soap opera? Ironically enough (and it's ironic that this is ironic), "fair and balanced" Fox News, courtesy of one Roger Friedman (who also broke with the pack, in a sense, suggesting antisemitism surrounding "The Passion of The Christ").

[TroglodyteScholar]

221. Well, that little irony makes plenty of sense...

If they're balanced on issues that aren't of any political importance, it's easier for them to maintain the false impression that they have a general balance to their reporting, right?

I'm just surprised that you've sought coverage of that stuff at all...To allude to a quote by Our Great Leader's mommy dearest, why should we waste our beautiful minds on such things? ;)

[Montauk6]

222. Welllllll...

I much prefer to seek such things out than to have it thrust upon me, knowhutimean?;-)

[Cooley Hurd]

9. There's a difference in how the Repugs used the Schiavo case...

..and how the Dems will in 2006. They used it to push a religious/social agenda, as well as to bully the judiciary. We'll use it to point how fucking wrong the Repugs were to use it in the first place. Dean may have phrase the strategy wrong, but I'm 100% behind him on this - it was a classic example of repug over-reach.:thumbsup:

[NoPasaran]

10. That's the way that I see it too

We won't be making an issue of Schaivo, we'll be making an issue of how the GOP RW exploited the case to shove their christofascist agenda down our throats.

[janx]

41. And if we don't, they will continue to do it.

It's not only to win elections that this must be done.

[blogbear]

16. How true and I'm glad Dean is keeping score!

[Anarcho-Socialist]

12. I have fears about this, but I trust Dean to know what he's doing

[SujiwanKenobee]

13. What is it with announcing ahead of time to the opposition machine

just what your tactics are going to be?

OK, so the Schiavo fiasco is obvious, but why give the Repubs all this time to prepare and counter? How about a "tiger springing out with claws surprise" once in a while fer crissakes.

[janx]

73. There's nothing they can do.

What they did was so outrageous and thoroughly documented (through a proposed bill in Congress) that there's just nothing they can do. There is no excuse for what they did. It was followed up by Delay's threats about judges.

The reaction from Dean comes as no surprise to them.

[woosh]

14. This is probably one of those"trial balloons"

I think they're looking for a press reaction.

[truthisfreedom]

17. that's a thug tactic.

the good Doctor Dean is not floating a balloon. he's announcing a method for dealing with criminals.

[woosh]

81. All politicians test positions.

Democrats have to stop thinking that their politicians are somehow sheltered from trying things out politically to see how their supporters respond.

It's a logical process.

[jefferson_dem]

18. Not at all helpful, Dr.

[patricia92243]

19. The Republicans will now use that sentence against Dean and his fellow

Democrats.

Howard, Howard, we love you but keep that foot out of your mouth.

[Scooter24]

21. I agree

but I think in this case actions speak louder than words. Especially since the action taken by Congress speaks volumes.

This needs to be done carefully. They need to make sure not to center the arguement on Terri herself but more on the actions taken by congress. They should start by employing a long-used White House tactic and rename the issue. Take "Terri" out of the frame and come up with something scathing like "Congressional Activism" or something like that.

[Warren Stupidity]

24. Good let them keep bringing TS up

and in doing so keep reminding the vast majority of american people that they are the American Taliban and that they intend to control the most private affairs of every family in the nation. Yes indeed, let them use Dean's words agasint him.

[madfloridian]

38. He called them out on their playing God.

It will be ok. If they attack him too much they will have to defend their position of playing God and attacking judges.

[Cha]

125. I agree..Dean is being upfront

about it and some can't handle that.

What a concept to say what you mean and mean what you say..and I know you're being "honest"..Madfloridian!:D

delay made a big mistake when he tried to play god in the Teri Schiavo family matter.

[davidwhite0570]

20. I agree with using this to show what type of people the

repugs are.....we are in a battle for our country, I say destroy your enemies anyway possible....period....we lose elections because we always take the "high ground". IMHO

[Warren Stupidity]

22. lets all join in and parse every syllable

and by all means find fault with everything Dean says, and for sure lets not use the monstrous intrusion into the private affairs of the Schiavos by the rethuglican party, an intrusion that was despised by something like 80% of the population, as an issue against the rethuglicans. Instead lets propose nuanced differences in tax cuts for billionaires, nuanced differences in killing foreigners for oil, and nuanced differences in cutting old age pensions so that the billionaire tax cuts can remain in place. By all means, let us not allow voters to see a clear difference between the two major parties. Howard, what were you thinking?

[madfloridian]

40. Thanks for that post. Excellent. We have the Stockholm Syndrome.

As a party we really do have that. We are so afraid of what they will say or think.

Once we get over that, we are on our way to winning.

Go Howard.

[KittyWampus]

51. Why The Hyperbole? Noone Is Finding Fault W/ EVERYTHING Dean Says

and the fact you say "parse every syllable" and exaggerate shows Dean's comment WAS unhelpful.

And WHY he would talk about Democratic Strategy is beyond me.

However, noone is perfect and Dean will do a good job regardless of his gaffes.

[madfloridian]

56. Why are you so upset about this?

You are upset with me and with this poster. I love your phrasing that he will do a good job in spite of his "gaffes."

He is telling the truth, and the facts are getting ugly. It is time to risk taking chances to save this country.

He can talk about strategy if he wants to....some in the party blast him anyway whether he does or doesn't.

[janx]

60. Something just occurred to me.

There was an article yesterday about how Dean, having been working in the trenches and relatively inaccessible to the national media, would soon be visible.

I think he's back! ;-)

[madfloridian]

62. You might be right.

There is a huge battle coming up, and some of our Democrats are not helping. Watching our mouths and being so damned politically correct for so many years has really gotten us in a bind.

I guess that means I need to duck and cover if people are getting mad at me because of what he said.

I criticized him on the women's rights issue yesterday, and people got upset with me over that. Go figure.

[pazarus]

59. well said, but...

sometimes its realities like these little quotes that make people question a politicians motives and sincerity. He needs to understand that so he can point people towards these differences instead of looking like the same ol' thing as the Republicans, using this poor woman. I mean, jesus, he clearly meant to say that he 'use the issue of the Republican's intervention into a personal matter' against them, but he's too clumsy to say that.

Language matters.

[Cha]

127. Bravissimo!

:applause:

[NYCGirl]

153. And if he doesn't say anything, why don't we all scream and tear our hair

crying, "Where is Howard Dean on the Schiavo matter? Where is he!!!!" like a lot of DUers were doing a couple of weeks ago.

[insane_cratic_gal]

23. I have a lot of respect

for Dean, but I have to agree this is sort of a fuckup.
Never reveal your battle plans to the enemy, yet he just handed the repukes and the zealots that whip them (Christian collation) a road map of our strategy.

More then that it makes us look Catty, we are using the issue has much as the repukes are, very very bad idea. Their rating went down the toilet with that mistake, it's not a political crutch it's a tragic f'ed up life that never should of gotten dragged into the press and congress.

[janx]

46. I disagree.

First of all, what they did is a matter if historical record, one they can't reverse no matter what they do.

And secondly, why how did it get to the Congressional level? The theocrats jumped on it and damn near wrote a law that could have affected one heck of a lot of people.

[Eloriel]

25. I have a feeling

well, two things:

1. Dean is quite probably speaking a bit off the cuff and to a certain extent expressing his own personal reaction based on his background (M.D.) to the histrionics and as a politician/DNC chair to the polls showing public disfavor

and

2. By the time the elections rolls around, the Schiavo case will be a distant memory and there will be much fresher matters to ream the Repugs about. HOWEVER, even so, a tasteful reminder here and there might not be inappropriate.

[wellst0nev0ter]

27. We're The Fuggin Party That Likes The "Culture Of Death"

and apparently, the public sees the Democrats as AWOL on this issue, not respectfully standing by. All we have to do is not be complete assholes, talk sense and explain how the country is being taken over by theocons.

[artr2]

31. Oh please, give it a rest.

What Dean is saying to the republicans is we are going to shove Tom Delay UP your ass come election time. The lat paragraph quoted in the article tells exactly what the Dem's are going to do. An unflattering picture of the bug man and telling people that they will not be able to help their mother or father reach the end of life's journey. Do you think that would be a powerful image? Instead of thinking what a great image, a bunch of whiny pussies are saying "ooh lets not offend anyone". Come on, fight back Dems!! The time is now!

[KittyWampus]

55. One Can Fight Back Without Inserting Foot In Ones Mouth.

you know how Kerry really didn't help himself from time to time by saying something that was EASY to twist?

you know how Kerry 'voted for it before he voted against it'?

Sometimes, politicians say stuff that is OBVIOUSLY not helpful.

Sometimes it's better to just ADMIT you phrased something poorly and move on.

Because you KNOW Dean's comment CAN be used against the Democrats.

Kerry FINALLY got around to admitting he phrased his comments on voting poorly and THAT'S WHEN THE COMMENTARY ABOUT IT STOPPED.

[madfloridian]

57. Ah, you are afraid of what *they* will think of us.

We need to stop that.

[KittyWampus]

135. Only When A Leading Democrats Says Something So Blatantly Stupid

[madfloridian]

142. What he said was absolutely correct.

Read the article. He said who gets to choose if you live or die...Tom Delay and his bunch or you and your family. He is totally correct.

I am quite aware of why some people are disapproving of whatever he does. I have read your forums, and I know what you say about me as well. I have a very tough hide, and things like this just do not get to me anymore. I see non-productive criticisms here that date back to the primaries. Don't go there.

If you guys don't want the party to succeed fine with me. But don't go after me.

Dean spoke the truth.

[mitchtv]

219. the "oh we shouldn't say/do that, what will they think?" crowd is out

in full regalia.Dean is the antithesis of the careful what you say or do crowd. Schiavo is dead(eminently useable) Dean had the good taste to wait. This doesn't even compare with the memo that was used during the affair. We should move Michael S. to Sugarland and run him against Delay.

[MollyStark]

109. One can't fight back with a stick up one's ass

There are some people who won't say shit even when they have a mouthful.

Luckily Dean is not one of those people.

[sandnsea]

112. The commentary never stopped

It never will stop. The correct thing to do was to launch a HUGE offensive on Bush refusing to sign the bill if any changes were made to it. And ramp up the offensive on the fact that our troops still didn't have body armor. The campaign didn't do that, or at least not enough. Wouldn't have mattered anyway, our own people don't know how to support a leader's efforts anyway.

In the same way, this comment Dean made isn't going to go away either. Which means we're going to have to make an even bigger issue of the Martinez memo, Delay and his abuse of power, and right to privacy.

And not help them by saying anything about this statement except Dean says things weird, we know that. And move on.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janx]

122. It is very serious, though I make jokes about Mr. Finnegan.

It's very serious indeed.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

128. You hate his "fat little ass"?

That is very sad. I hate to tell you that the party's sad condition is NOT my fault. I don't give a damn whether you like my attitude or not.

How about them apples?

I work very hard for the party, so does my husband. I resent your words very much.

[sandnsea]

168. How so?

Why is it sadder to hate Howard Dean than any other Dem??? Why can't people say they hate Howard Dean when they CAN say they hate every other Dem out there???

I didn't blame you for anything. I said that we ought to support Dean because I'm tired of us trashing our own Dems, no matter what they do. And got attacked for it, TWICE. Pretty rotten apples if you ask me, attack somebody who is trying to be supportive of Dean, even thought they hate him and have intentionally been quiet about it for months now.

You resent my words??? Pretty funny coming from somebody who hasn't had a kind word for anybody but a Dean supporter in 2 years.

[madfloridian]

169. I don't attack other Democrats.

Go after someone who does. I posted articles and things about the DLC, mostly in their own words. I do not care for their goals, and the recent bankruptcy bill proved a lot of my statements correct.

In fact I don't remember attacking you or anyone. I stand up for my rights.

[Zensea]

137. You're right, Hateful attitudes don't help

Like, for example, hating the current head of one part of the Democratic party.

[sandnsea]

167. Difference being

I almost never mention it, first time I've said it in over a year. As opposed to the hate that is spewed towards the other leaders of the Democratic Party every single day. And NEVER have their posts deleted for it either.

[Cha]

130. You see from your point and

I see it from my point ..and from here it is not a "gaffe" as you often say about Dean.

Just because you see it one way does not make it the final word on the subject.

[KittyWampus]

132. Remain In Deanial. It's Just One Reason Why Dean Couldn't Win Primaries

An inability to acknowledge errors and correct oneself.

[madfloridian]

134. Oh, do not get me started.

I try to be very good. But do NOT go there.

[janx]

138. Good for you, MF.

Don't take the bait.

We're never going to get the lunatics out of office if we don't come out swinging. Some people are going to have a tough time adjusting to those changes, and some of them are going to lash out in the process.

[Cha]

141. You are the one who is

in "denial".

[Roland99]

32. "YEEAAAAHHHHHH!!"

An overwhelming majority of Americans didn't want the gov't to intervene. Couple that with the GOP's inflammatory rhetoric afterward and current attempts to thwart standard Congressional protocol and reconstruction of the Constitution and the Democrats have a good issue to use in '06, like the GOP used "terror" in '02

[ozone_man]

34. Dean is right to stay focussed on SS.

This is the most important issue at this point.

Save the TS issue for election time in 2006, when we can show people how their Congress people behave. There's very broad support against the government getting involved in personal issues, and I mean Republican support. A nice way to fragment the right, claiming some of the constitutional Republicans for our side. A bigger wedge issue will be fiscal deficits/economy, but that has yet to fully unfold.

[madfloridian]

35. Please note the issue: Will we allow them to decide if we live or die?

He may be blasted for saying it, but it puts them on guard.

"This is going to be an issue in 2006, and it's going to be an issue in 2008," Dean told about 200 people at a gay rights group's breakfast in West Hollywood, "because we're going to have an ad with a picture of Tom DeLay saying, 'Do you want this guy to decide whether you die or not? Or is that going to be up to your loved ones?'"

Dean, a physician before his political career burgeoned, added: "The issue is: Are we going to live in a theocracy where the highest powers tell us what to do? Or are we going to be allowed to consult our own high powers when we make very difficult decisions..."

If they use it against him too much, they will have to address the issue. I did not react like some of you did...I think he was sort of issuing a warning about using life and death issues. Things are spiraling out of control with their abuse of power. Maybe it is time to call them on it.

[janx]

36. Thank GOD!

Many people still just don't seem to understand how important the Schiavo case was and what the federal government almost got away with. The implications are terrifying.

[madfloridian]

37. And besides, we have got to stop being afraid of them.

Most of the posts seem so afraid that he will be attacked for those remarks. He is attacked for whatever he says. Read the posts, see what I mean. We are afraid of what they will think of us or Howard Dean for saying it.

What he said was right...they tried to play God.

[ozone_man]

43. We no longer need to be afraid of this Theocracy.

Time to pull back the curtains and reveal these neocons for what they are. Tom Delay can be first.

[janx]

45. EXACTLY.

And there's nothing they can do to stop it.

[Cheney Killed Bambi]

44. KICK

This is why Dean is the perfect guy to be DNC Chair. He takes the Repubs' BS wedge issues and wedges them right back in their faces!! Whoo--Hoo!!!

[pazarus]

54. dean is a clumsy oaf

He just doesn't get it. He comes out of hiding for the first time in two months and completely throws out any success the Democrats had at looking like less of whackos then the Republicans. Sometimes, Howard, it is about language and about how you approach an issue. The whole reason you can use the Republican's intervention in the Schiavo case is because they tried to make it a political issue and the Democrats stayed out of it. The way to 'use' the issue is to keep quiet about it and refer to their abuses of power and intrusion into people's lives. People don't need to be reminded that the Republicans used it for political gain, the whole world witnessed it.

And the one thing you could say to completely negate any positive effect and any advantage for the party, is "we're going to use Terri Schiavo later on". This is exactly the kind of idiotic misstep someone who just doesn't understand the power of language and the sensitivity of certain issues. I will never regret being against his clumsy rise to the top of polls or celebrating his implosion and Kerry's rise.

I'm sure he's a nice guy, and I agree with him on a lot of issues, but he just doesn't get it when it comes to a message and the hidden game of politics.

[ldf]

63. bull.

let's scheme, connive, let's "play the game".

playing the game is exactly what put us in the position we are in. republicans are much better at scheming and conniving than we are.

let's be honest. we WILL use the ts issue. let's be upfront for once and answer the questions without "couching" the response for pandering purposes.

i think americans are getting to the point of having a great respect for "what you see is what you get". quite refreshing, in fact.

[pazarus]

68. time will tell on this one

if you think the democrats can win without playing the political game, then I'd say you're dead wrong. People who play the game well make it appear as though they aren't playing at all. People who spell out their political plans in clumsy language and tread on sensitive issues dont get very far.

Remember what you might have thought about the 'honesty' of that memo. Yes, it was honest, but it was also despicable. This comment wasn't as despicable because he doesn't intend to use terri schiavo as much as he intends to use the republicans' actions against them... but just try explaining that to a republican who has heard this little sound bite.

Its how people lose, and its the exact kind of thing i have always worried about with dean. Where you find it refreshingly honest, I find it clumsily worded and poorly decided. You can be honest without putting your foot in your mouth.

[madfloridian]

70. I say we have lost both houses of congress and the WH by being PC.

Why are you so worried about it?

[janx]

75. Good question...

;-)

[pazarus]

82. I'm worried about political mistakes, not correctness

And I think we lost both houses and the White House because when the nation is angry and aggressive--and scared--they will naturally turn to the party that supports and nurtures and fuels their myopic nationalism.

My worry is that Democrats will keep making blunders, like this one. Sometimes it happens. Bush made a blunder when he said "Bring it on", and we called him on it. Lott made a blunder when he praised Thurmond's "Segregation Forever" campaign, and he lost his position over it. Martinez (or his aide, I hear) made a blunder by distributing that memo, and he got fired.

Conservative blunders are usually a rare sound bite of honesty, and honest opinions from conservatives often expose the ugly, exclusionary, racist, bigoted nature of their position. When a Democrat blunders, he doesn't usually have as much to risk--unless its in the heat of the moment when people expect emotional responses instead of reasonable ones. Dukakis' blunder was his honest position, but the framing made him look emotionless. Any Democrat who dared criticize the president's handling of terrorist threats in the weeks after 9/11 would have resigned within days.

The biggest threat to a Democrat is just the political climate, which changes day-to-day. 50% of the country could go from opposition of the death penalty to support based on one horrific case. Right then and there, in the heat of the moment, is not the time to issue a statement that the death penalty is always wrong. And less than a month after Schiavo's death and the awful political madness that surrounded it is not the time to say "we're going to use terri schiavo later on". It doesn't even matter what he meant, he should have known better and not made the mistake of touching on a sensitive issue and really sounding to all the world as opportunistic as the eleventh-hour Republicans.

Sometimes a blunder is just a blunder. I could think of half a dozen ways to express that thought a lot more carefully, and even throw a non-politically-correct shot at Republicans in there. Nobody wants Dean to be PC towards Republicans--at least he can do that without shooting his party's goals in the foot.

[madfloridian]

84. I am worried about the loss of my country to radicals.

I think you are wrong here. I don't think it was a "blunder." I think it was planned. How do they defend what they did unless on religious grounds? I have a post about theocracy in GD. You bet these guys are deadly serious. What he said was fine, needed to be said.

Oh, I disagree with you on this.
"Conservative blunders are usually a rare sound bite of honesty"

They are usually lying more than they are telling the truth.

[janx]

86. I noticed that one too. n/t

[pazarus]

90. I think we're all a bit worried about that.

It wasn't planned, not in those words. I promise, in every way that a man who wasn't there and doesn't know Dean can promise. He made a mistake, plain and simple. It's not wrong to challenge the Republicans for their role in the Schiavo case; that was planned. It's not wrong to suggest that in 2006 and 2008, the Democrats will remind the public who is trying to cram thir beliefs down the throats of American families; that was planned. It was wrong to say the Democratic party is going to 'use Terri Schiavo'. That was not planned, as it completely deflates their argument that they weren't in it for political gain.

And actually, despite your claim that you disagree with me that "Conservative blunders are usually a rare sound bite of honesty", I think your next sentence shows you clearly agree with me.

Yes, they are usually lying. For a social conservative, telling the truth is a rare blunder worthy of disgrace.

[janx]

85. Out of curiosity--

Do you know the context in which Dean said this? Does any of us?

[pazarus]

91. actually, the context doesnt matter

Although it's pretty straight-forward. He outlines a bit of the strategy, saying he'll focus on other issues now but that this particular issue can be used in 200 and 2008.

...but then, that isn't what he said, it's what he meant. He said "We're going to use Terri Schiavo later on". For us who take the time to assess what he meant, fine. We know he means the fact that they intervened and that it showed they want to intervene into other American's personal decisions.

But it won't take much to completely flip the situation of 'republicans tried to use this for political gain' to 'both parties tried to use this for political gain' after that little comment. Our position above the politics of it is nullified completely, if not worse.

[janx]

92. He's not going to let that happen.

Remember that none of this has actually gone into practice yet. Dean finds this matter more than appalling, and he said so long before the radicals seized it as a political matter.

Yes, context does matter. And I think we're going to see some real context come into play when this becomes a campaign issue.

Edit: See posts 78, 79, and 80.

[pazarus]

93. he cant control it

any more than kerry could control the incessant 'before i voted against it' barrage, or any more than Dean himself could control the media airing 'the scream'. He doesn't get how easily a statement like this can destroy a perfectly reasonable position, or he does and he can't help himself.

Context doesn't matter. Did anyone besides hardcore Kerry fans bother to look at the context of his quote? Did anyone besides Deaniacs beg the networks to show his whole escalating inspirational speech? In one sentence, I can rebut anything Dean says about Republicans playing politics with Schiavo now, and on convincing terms from his own mouth.

I predict it hurts him down the line, and takes away a key edge we need in the 2006 elections. He would be wise to stay completely out of it or to explain himself now, although I fear its too late. They'll try to show context, but what can they get from that? It's just a poor choice of words, like telling your girlfriend she is fat. It might be true but, jesus, show some class.

[janx]

94. That is a fallacious analogy. Also--

this thing has to be addressed. People who call themselves Republicans these days are so far from the Goldwater/Ike Republicans of yesteryear that it's positively frightening. The old conservatives are dying, dead, or have left the Republican party. Dean knows this very well.

Moderates and libertarians are up in arms against this theocratical group of hypocrites, these Pharisees.

An out-of-context quote is not going to change that.

[pazarus]

95. an out-of-context quote can change a lot

not that I think this was even out of context. Poorly worded yes, and the sentences around it don't make it any better.

Nobody disagrees that these are neo-conservatives we're dealing with, and that any reasonable look at their positions by moderates is to our advantage. We are, for a short time, and despite being in the extreme governmental minority, in a good position, which is why we need to avoid giving them ammunition. This quote is ammunition, and people latch onto such small things sometimes, even misinterpreted quotes.

ok, you didnt like the 'fat girlfriend' analogy. I guess this quote really was more like that time when the Republicans had a memo that said they could use this to their political advantage. Sure, everyone knew it was the case, but to have it spelled out so coldly and clearly really turned people off.

[janx]

99. You don't think that it was taken out of context?

Then please, by all means, provide the context. What prededed it? What followed it? Did Dean just walk up to a podium and declare, "We're going to use Terri Schiavo as a campaign issue" ?

Or was this said in response to a question? Do you see what I mean?

The difference here is that this matter is a legitimate one for campaign debate. The Republicans had the "secret memo," yes. But more importantly, they stomped all over states' rights and the courts to curry favor with their fundamentalist constituency. And in the process, they involved themselves on a federal level with what should have been a matter left to family and the courts--not to mention the rights of Terri Schiavo herself, as defined by Florida law.

[pazarus]

100. i know you want it to matter

but how many times have you asked, begged, people to look at something in context? Do they listen, do they hear you out if they already know what they want to hear?

Even when the context is there, it doesn't negate the words. Last week there was an awful quote about judges from cornyn (I think), which he said was taken out of context. I read the whole thing, and it was taken out of context only in that he made a small disclaimer that he didn't think the judges actions justified violence.

Dean'squote, regardless of the context, shows that he plans to use the Terri Schiavo case against the Republicans for political benefit. Duh, the Republicans made a mistake--of course the chair of the DNC would use it against them.

My only argument is the blunderly way he said it. "We're going to use Terri Schiavo later on" stands on its own, unfortunately, and regardless of what came around it. Republicans will love hearing this one come election time, especially if it masks or trumps their own embarrassing involvement.

[janx]

102. It will unmask them. n/t

[seaglass]

197. Welcome to DU, you nailed it in this and your other

responses. I heard the quote this am and my heart just sank.

[pazarus]

205. thanks for the welcome

i know i'm not the only one who saw the quote and bit my lip. i tentatively supported dean's rise to this position, hoping he would take the opportunity to prove himself. hopefully this won't be as big as i think it could be...

i might have been a bit harsh calling him a 'clumsy oaf', but only with the word oaf.

[CTLawGuy]

229. good idea

Let's let Repugs get away with every atrocity and misuse of government power because we might make their days a little less bright, and they might grimace at us.

Oh Horrors!

:hide:

I mean it won us the elections in 2002 and 2004 :eyes:

[PassingFair]

101. I'd say YOUR dead wrong, fella.

"People who spell out their political plans in clumsy language and tread on sensitive issues dont get very far."

Bother to watch the presidential debates? Bush, the idiot, comes out the winner. Kerry just DID NOT appeal to the population. He droned on. He talked down to people. He put ME to sleep...

If everyone had to plan every single phrase so that it could not be quoted out of context, even to pieces of a sentence, nothing, but nothing would ever get said. Don't forget "I voted for that, before I voted against it".

Quit worrying about how the truth is spoken, just speak it!

[pazarus]

104. wait, are you being sarcastic

about the debates? Bush didn't win a single debate, he was stomped into the ground because he strayed from his little script and he had to face criticism face to face for the first time in three nd a half years. Yes he won the election, but the Republicans were ready to vote for a monkey if it could read a script and keep them in power. If Bush had been judged on the clumsy language that comes out when he strays from the teleprompter and the sheets of paper in front of him, he'd probably be clearing brush somewhere for a living.

I'd say even Bush is vulnerable when he treads on sensitive issues like social security.

"Quit worrying about how the truth is spoken, just speak it!"
No, sorry. How you say something matters, in life and especially in politics. Everyone chooses their words carefully depending on the context of their surroundings. You might cut back on the swears in front of children, or not talk about 'hot chicks' around your wife, or not tell someone sensitive that their haircut makes them look like a total dork. You can say the same thing many, many ways, and some things shouldn't be said to some audiences. These people have a national audience, and that's the audience they have to speak to. Speak the truth, but do it well.

Example: Harry Reid recently.

[MollyStark]

116. Democrats can't win by "playing" the political game

That has been proven over the last 8 years. I'd like to see Dean throw a few verbal pies.

He is right, they created the issue and we would be wrong for not responding and using it. Warning them before hand only increases their worry and chances are they are going to get rid of Delay. Delay goes and they are WEAK in 2006.

Dean did this brilliantly.

[janx]

118. There is no harm in letting them know that it's coming,

because there's nothing they can do. They messed the thing up so badly! It's never going to go away. The rabid religious right is out of control. It's out to finally, fully claim the Republican party for its own.

[pazarus]

193. brilliantly?!

hey, let's not go crazy here. Maybe you think it was acceptable, but him saying 'we're going to use terri schiavo later on' certainly wasn't brilliant. The idea behind it may have been common sense, to use the issue against the republicans come election time, but at best it was too blunt and at worst it was a huge political mistake.

Democrats can win by playing the political game, they just have to play it better. Playing politics doesn't mean being nice. Just look at Reid right now, or any of the Republican leaders. We don't need to consider politics as just compromising ourselves.

[Cha]

133. You need to get up to

speed!

[pazarus]

194. i don't know what that means.

[Capn Sunshine]

162. Hiding?

He's been relentlessly touring the southern states, giving sometimes three speeches a day, energizing the base in heretofore undone and unseen ways for the National party to attempt, and the only place it hasn't been noted is on Fox news.

Oh.....right.

[pazarus]

192. hiding from national media, not just Fox

yes, he has been touring southern states, and maybe effectively. He also made a choice to avoid national media and statements to be disseminated throughout the country. It is clearly part of his strategy to work bottom up, a strategy I think is a good idea. His comments until this one have been relegated, by his own will, to local newspapers and not to the nation as a whole.

It's not just Fox News. I haven't read a statement from him since a few days after he became the chair, even the DNC's statements don't explicitly say they come from Dean.

So for this to be one of the first statements on his way back... look, I'm sorry to admit one of our guys made a mistake, but I think the sooner we admit it the better. Please don't act shocked and surprised if the sentence "we're going to use terri schiavo later on" comes back to haunt Dean.

One thing I generally like about Democrats is that they aren't so blind to not see faults in their own, and they don't cover them up and ignore them like the Republicans do. Faults are part of humanity, and a mistake can be admitted without destroying a man.

[tinonedown]

58. "We're going to use Terri Schiavo later on,"

If that is on tape then any political edge the subject carried is now completely gone and maybe reversed.

[Stinky The Clown]

61. Dean is right to have said this, it is not a mistake

One of the things I have always admired with Dean is his wonderfully spotty familiarity with "political correctness". (Pickup trucks with confederate flags ... spot on, no matter how inartfully stated you may think it was). He has a handle on this TS issue, too, and he's staking out his ground.

For those who think he somehow tipped some secret hand to the other side .... get real. They know him, they follow him, they chronicle him, they catalog him, they file video of him, etc. This is no surprise to them. They're not stupid. Or inattentive.

As for the sheeple ..... forget it. No one out there in sheeple land is listening to Dean. The great unwashed (uninformed) remain as unwashed as they've always been.

Dean's statement seems to indicate more that he's going to take this issue on not as about TS per se, but "using" (his word) TS as but one example of how the nutjobs are trying to change things ... as an example of their tactics. The trick (and not an easy one) is to keep the public discussion on the fundamentalist radical's tactics and not let it degenerate into a rehash of the specifics of the TS thing. And that won't be easy ... which is where I part company with the good doctor. He is not the best spokesman in such a debate when it goes prime time. There are many on our side who can more artfully debate this than Dean. But as a leader and tactician, he is, as I said above, spot on.

I was excited when he announced for party chair and I am happy with what he's been doing and saying.

Go Howie! I love ya, man!

(And as for the "yeeeee-AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH" ..... we need to be wearing that as a badge of honor. Take it back, own it, and use it as a mantra. Even nutjobs see the beauty of something like that, particularly given the distance of time.)

[madfloridian]

64. Thanks. Many of these things are said in a calculated manner.

He makes them furious. He is not making gaffes, he is irritating them. It throws them off balance, because when they go after what he says they look silly.

[Cha]

139. Great post..thanks for

getting it!

[Algorem]

65. Ohio Republicans want to play:Lawmakers try to bar removing feed tubes

Lawmakers try to bar removal of feed tubes

Friday, April 15, 2005

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1113557523251575.xml

T.C. Brown

Columbus - Seeking to avoid a Terri Schiavo-like controversy, Ohio lawmakers have proposed bills to prevent the removal of a feeding tube from a patient in a permanently unconscious state.

Under one proposal, a court could not order the removal of tubes providing food and water if the patient left no instructions and the patient's family disagreed over the patient's previously expressed desire for treatment.

A separate bill would give decision-making preference to any close family member willing to sustain the life of the patient and shoulder financial responsibility.

In a news conference Thursday, lawmakers said the first bill would prevent the protracted family battle that occurred in Florida, remove such decisions from a judge who could interject a "personal bias" and err on the side of life...

[janx]

66. Yeah, this kind of thing has only just started.

There's a woman in Chicago whom the wingnuts now want to try and save; there was another in Georgia they removed from hospice and put in a hospital.

Government is picking up on this and pandering to it.

It's DANGEROUS.

Thanks so much for posting this information.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

69. That is a tasteless thing to say.

It is outrageous and it crosses the line of decency.

[madfloridian]

72. Well, I guess anything goes here now.

Say what you want.

[neuvocat]

71. This is what has to be done.

If Dean doesn't do this, then the Republicans will be allowed to continually frame the debate on everything from health care to morality. The republicans don't want anyone to challenge them on it.

Dean is going to make a fight out of this for states rights, an issue that is now up for grabs. Count on that.

[janx]

74. Not to mention the separation of powers, our three branches

of government as outlined in the Constitution. The stakes are high. You are absolutely right--it has to be done.

[madfloridian]

76. Missouri trying to pass a law about feeding tube removal.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/11281752.htm

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/005/9.48.html
Trying to determine the "Christian" standards for removing a feeding tube.

[janx]

77. Good Lord. It's proliferating faster than I thought it would.

The wingnuts are wasting no time. No wonder Dean said what he did.

MF, they're trying at the state level. They know they screwed up trying to do this through the feds.

Does the DNC know about this?

Edit: Nevermind the last question--they do now.

[Cocoa]

78. Dean just got Mel Martinez off the hook

up to now, Martinez made the biggest blunder in this case.

Now Dean has equaled Mel, and whenever a dem tries to criticize Martinez for his memo, the republicans can come back with Dean saying "we're going to use Terri Schiavo later."

[janx]

79. If they do, then their logic will be seriously flawed. n/t

[madfloridian]

80. If they say that, they admit to "using" her.

They will in effect be saying they used her as an issue first.

[sandnsea]

113. Only if we let them

The rest of the Democratic Party MUST say "Dean says alot of things" and keep hammering away at the memo, Delay's abuse of power, and the right to privacy.

Nobody's perfect, eh, "Maaarry!! What did I say???"

[Stinky The Clown]

126. I just can't make that leap ........

What Mello did was plot the tactic in the first place ... essentially he created this as a wedge issue and should rightly be called out for being such a sick fucker.

What the good doctor did, however, was simply say he is going to use their **tactics** as the wedge he wants to drive. (You can argue how Dean phrased it, I suppose, but that's the worst anyone can do. I personally love the way he talks and phrases things ... but that's just me ... :shrug: )

There is no moral equivalency between being a sick fucker (Martinez) and calling a sick fucker just that ... a sick fuck (what Dean is doing).

Sorry. I just can't make the leap .......

[Cha]

143. Yeah, that was quite a LEAP

to make!

[napi21]

83. I think it depends on how it's used.

If the Dems attack the Pubs on gross interference in private lives, and simply use the Schiavo case as proof that the Pubs already did it, I think all will be OK.

I understand what you are all saying aobut using Terri", but I don't think that's what Dean meant.

I think we HAVE to keep "interference in private lives" front and center all the way through 2008. Most of the people in the US don't like those tactics, and we cannot let them forget.

[Maine-ah]

87. oh, I completly agree, it's just the way that Dean said it that

can be taken wrong, and I think dems need to be careful that way. The pugs are good at spinning everything, with a lot of help from the media, we saw it all happen with Kerry. He should have chosen his words more carefully.

[madfloridian]

88. I agree with the way it was said.

There is no nice way to call a group out on the future of our country.

[janx]

89. Journalists love to quote Dean out of context.

This is no exception.

[napi21]

97. I understand, but that's part of what people love about Dean!

He's not a "politically correct" kind of guy!

I'm really sick and tired of all the damn politically correct speak! Give me the straight facts...FOR A CHANGE!

It doesn't matter what any of the Dems actually say, it will be twisted anyway, so just say the facts as they are. At least you can defend it, and not have to have someone interpret what you meant every time!

[sandnsea]

114. I hate it about him

I wish some people could understand that alot of Democrats find Dean's faux pas about as charming as Bush's.

Regardless, it won't do any good to get in a twirl over this. The issue is still Delay's abuse of power and the right to privacy in making end of life decisions. We just need to stay focused.

[madfloridian]

117. Then why use an avatar with a picture of someone you don't like?

.

[janx]

121. I am anxiously awaiting Mr. Finnegan's reply.

I sent him an email.

[ginnyinWI]

105. even if nobody spins or twists it, it still sounds crass to me

If she were my relative they were talking about, I'd think the Dems were being just as bad as the Repubs--and openly admitting it. I think he should have said that they would be raising the ISSUE of legislative interference again in 06 and 08, not say "using Terri Schiavo".

[pazarus]

108. it seems like a small thing

but what a difference wording can make. the issue of legislative interference should not be summed up by the words "terri schiavo", which have another meaning.

[Stinky The Clown]

144. Who was the audience for the larger message?

He wasn't speaking for our benefit. We already know where he stands on this. He knows we know where he stands on this. We know he knows we know where he stands on this.

His audience was the sheeple (the few who may have heard of this). Their uninvolved and deluded ears would roll shut at the words "issue of legislative interference" or something similar. Plain spoken translation of that is "use Terri Schiavo". They know what the issue is, but they yawn at the technically correct phrasing of it.

The issue of language is not always saying something in the precisely correct terms. That makes us sound like a bunch of left wing legal intellectuals (which we may well be - and for that I am proud and grateful). We need to use words and phrasing that appeal to the same crowd that watches "Survivor" and views Saturday cartoons as a cultural event. For far too long we've been preaching to our own choir cuz our own choir are the only ones who can bear to listen to us.

Go Howard! Tell it as *you* see it and tell it in *your* words.

I, for one, am with ya, my man!

[janx]

156. T-E-R-R-I S-C-H-I-A-V-O

Damn, Husb2Sparkly...

You're right! :toast:

That was, to me, even more despicable than watching the "House Managers" walk two-by-two, condemning a sitting president for his sexual activities.

[pazarus]

195. we'll see

you're pretty optimistic though about what people hear and what they understand. Yes, we know where he stands, but where do you think the 'sheeple' think he stands when he says 'we're going to use terri schiavo'?

Now, I'm not a professional sheepologist, but I think they might see it as using her for political gain. Just a theory. Honestly, only time will tell. In a year, if this is all I've heard about it, I'll eat some crow. If moderates are rallying around Dean chanting "use terri, use terri!", then i guess I was wrong.

But if I hear this quote over and over in the media and a big discussion about who used terri schiavo for political gain, then I am right and Dean made a huge gaffe. Only one party used her, and that should be the end of discussion, and it would have been without a statement like this.

[Stinky The Clown]

129. Dean is Dean ......

.... and that's the guy people love. He is refreshingly plain spoken (like who else, at least in having that reputation?) if sometimes inartful. But so what? There's no abiguity. You know what he means.

I far prefer our side to be direct and forget that politcal correctness we've been saddled with. The country is far more raucous than it was even a few years ago. Ya wanna play with the big guys? Ya gotta be ready to rumble.

Truth to power. Say it like ya see it. Say it like ya feel it. Say it like ya mean it.

[janx]

157. Or as Dean would say...

The tea is in the harbor!

[madfloridian]

103. The headline got it right....too many here are reactionary and afraid.

"House Majority Leader Tom DeLay's role in the end-of-life debate will be a main target the DNC chairman says at a West Hollywood breakfast."

That is the sub headline. I am always in awe of how afraid DUers tend to be of saying what needs to be said. The LA Times said it just right.

Sometimes it is good to be proper, but when your country is being hijacked by the extremists.....you do not have time to be nice.

This was not a gaffe, it was a planned statement. You know it was. The Stockholm Syndrome....fear of offending or hurting your captors. Dean said that on FOX news, and no one bashed him. They knew he was right.

Stop being afraid of Howard Dean. I will criticize him if he gives in on women's rights, and I had a thread yesterday. There is nothing wrong with what he said. Nothing at all. We should use it later instead of now. But it was good he put them on guard.

[TayTay]

106. If this is how he said it, then this is good

the phrasing matters. Not because I am afraid of the Rethugs, but because I don't want to step on our message. The idea that any Congressman/woman can step in between a husband and wife and overrule them on a personal family matter is an outrage. I have no problem whatsoever with that. That is in deed an exploitable issue.

The Rethugs do what they do. It doesn't matter whether or not it is true, they will smear anything. I am so tired of being told to be mortally afraid of them. Screw them. Let's just concentrate on getting our message out there.

[sandnsea]

115. Staying on message, exactly

Abuse of power, interference in personal decisions.

[madfloridian]

120. Phrasing does not matter with that bunch.

They turned Kerry from a war hero into a traitor. They twist words, turn them.

It is time we spoke out, mades waves, and quit being afraid of them. And also quit being afraid of the DLC leaders.

[TayTay]

140. I agree with that

We need Gov. Dean to succeed. I was not a primary backer of his. I think it is now time to get over it for the good of the party and to start to concentrate on 2006.

We, as Dems, did not pick this fight. Delay and Frist did. But we need to respond. They politicized a family matter and are exploiting this issue to bring church and state together. This is wrong. I want all Dems to stand and fight this. It is as basic an issue as we can possibly find.

Language matters, but even when Dems use carefully parsed language, the Rethugs just lie about it anyway. I am just done being afraid of them. Screw them. I think we should just say what we mean and let the people sort it out.

[janx]

110. I just sent Mr. Finnegan an email, asking him to provide

some context. I'll let you know if he responds...

[mopinko]

123. sounds like what he was elected to do.

that is, if he was elected to give the party a spine. this is what you do when you have a spine. you jump on evil ones, and hold them accountable for their despicable acts. you hang these putrid things around their necks until everyone can small the stink. should he use a little piece of satin ribbon for that? or a meat hook?

[madfloridian]

131. Very nice, and your pics are funny.

:hi:

[mopinko]

146. couple more for ya

(these are my buttons, btw)

[Cha]

154. I went to your site and love it! Nice bio..

I was looking for one of those Dean buttons with the "Yeargh" but didn't find it..where is it?

[mopinko]

172. use the index.

it is in the category- sanity, and also comes in tiny.

[Cha]

179. Fantabulous!

Sanity.it is!

[Cha]

148. We're getting our "Spine" back and

there's still a bunch of chicken littles running around!

[madfloridian]

152. Stockholm Syndrome...afraid of offending our captors.

And the usual part of the syndrome where there is grudging admiration for them...which also makes it hard to speak out.

The sky is falling.

[ozone_man]

158. A meat hook please.

Let the spinal implants begin. No more pink tutu Dems.

[BadNews]

149. How do you frame it and have it work?

How can the Democrat bring this up after the poor woman has been buried for so long. If they do, it will be easy for the repukes to turn the table and say we are politicizing the death of an innocent victim. I'm not so sure that the slide of *'s poll numbers was not the result of a spike in fuel prices and a dip in the economy rather than Schivo.

[madfloridian]

150. Not about her, about abuse of power. It will stick.

:hi:

[Stinky The Clown]

155. The Theocrats will frame it for us by their actions

Already there are bills in Ohio and somewhere else (Kansas? I dunno ... :shrug: ) addressing feeding tubes .... culture of life ..... blah blah blah ..... sanctity of ...... blah blah blah ..... save the children .... blah blah fucking blah.

Don't worry, they'll hand us the framing. All Dean said was he had a new arrow in his quiver. He's waiting for the right target. Like a duck in a shooting gallery, it will pop up just when we need it. The Theocrats just can't resist.

Remember all the yammering on our side about the impending split in the Republican party because of the Theocrat wing wanting payback ..... ? Its happening. Ain't gunna be pretty, but this is it.

Our time.

Smart Dems will be checking in with the Doctor to see when he's handing out those free clues they all seem to need.

Go Howie!

[janx]

159. Right again, Husb2Sparkly.

This is it.

[Cha]

161. I love your

analysis on this, Husb2Sparkly!

[Stinky The Clown]

165. Yanno, I first saw Howard Dean on C-Span(?) in maybe late 02 or early 03

long before anyone else announced for the primaries. Sparkly (my wife - duh :) ) was actually the first to see this speech and called me to watch it.

He was talking about Bush the way I would want a candidate to talk about Bush. Straight. Clear. Unambiguous. I liked him then and I like him now. As it happens I chose another horse to ride, but not because I didn't like or respect the Doctor. And that feeling is undiminished.

He may not be everyone's cup of tea, but he's one of mine.

I always wanted a guy speaking for our side who would rip the heart out of an opponent and eat it, warm and bloody, on live teevee. That's Howie.

And, in my view, he is right where we need him doing exactly what we need him to do.

As to my analysis, that ought to follow right along with my views on Dean. I agree with him on plenty and from following him and agreeing with him, I think I understand what he says more than, maybe, some others who are less than happy with him.

[Johnny Noshoes]

180. "That's Howie."

The first time I saw him was on CSpan when he spoke at the California party convention I think it was March of '03. That speech made me a Dean supporter. What I want to know is what's so wrong about US kicking ass and taking names for a CHANGE. If we're gonna take this country back we ain't gonna do it by playing nice.

[Cha]

160. Buzzflash likes it!

"DEAN SOCKS IT TO DELAY"
"Do you want this guy to decide whether you die or not?..Are we going to live in a theoracy?"

http://www.buzzflash.com/

[janx]

163. The AP article renders Dean's comments differently from the

way that Mr. Finnegan does.

WASHINGTON (AP) — Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean, who has accused congressional Republicans of "grandstanding" in the Terri Schiavo case, said his party will use it against the GOP in coming elections.

"This is going to be an issue in 2006, and its going to be an issue in 2008 because we're going to have an ad with a picture of (House Majority Leader) Tom DeLay saying, 'Do you want this guy to decide whether you die or not? Or is that going to be up to your loved ones?'" Dean said in West Hollywood, Calif.

Dean, answering questions at an Access Now for Gay and Lesbian Equality event on Friday, went on to say: "The issue is: Are we going to live in a theocracy where the highest powers tell us what to do? Or are we going to be allowed to consult our own high powers when we make very difficult decisions?'"

(more at link):

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-04-16-dean-schiavo_x.htm

A little context works wonders.

[pazarus]

204. renders differently, omits

yes, now you can see the difference a little language makes. this article only paraphrases his intentions, it makes no mention of the quote i take issue with. looks a lot better now, no?

[janx]

223. I'm still awaiting a reply from Mr. Finnegan.

He should be able to explain it.

[madfloridian]

164. Some of the most important words said on the subject....

And too many are afraid he did not phrase it correctly. Good for Buzzflash.

Why do we have to be nice when they are destroying our country?

[Stinky The Clown]

166. NIce schmice .....

I want blood.

[pazarus]

206. dont be nice

unless its a politcal maneuver of course... but always be smart. everyone here can agree the days of being 'nice' with the republican party are over. they've been fighting the war for several years before we realized we were being attacked.

but the days of being smart cant ever be over if we want to win. If he was reading a prepared speech, he should fire the speechwriter.

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

171. He is. It is about who says when we can die. The American Theocrats.

Vital issue.

[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

173. Outstanding

All hand-wringers please take a seat. Pacifiers will be handed out presently.

[madfloridian]

175. Chuckle.

:hi:

[WilliamPitt]

181. :hi back:

I'll tellya...if Dean had said they were NOT going to use this whole goddam mess, I'd be calling for his head.

Let's go, yo.

:)

[sandnsea]

183. Oh puhleeze

You of all people know this was a mistake. Like I said over and over, we don't need to make it any worse by repeating it and going into a tizzy over it. We can just ignore it and get back to the message. But it was a stupid choice of words and we're going to be hearing it. No need to pretend otherwise.

[WilliamPitt]

185. I am not talking about his choice of words

That'll be forgotten in two weeks. You know as well as anyone the short-term memory of the electorate.

One year from now, however, the issue will still be there and ready for use.

Yes, use.

[janx]

186. Here's another account, not by Mr. Finnegan, but by

someone with the AP:


http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-04-16-dean...

The quote that frightens some people is obviously lacking in the AP account.

[WilliamPitt]

188. The quote will get out there

because the GOP spinners are not dumb. It'll get out there (where it can be checkmated with the Martinez memo), and then it will be forgotten.

The larger issue of Schiavo - and the opportunity to use DeLay (whose problems only get deeper from here) as a whipping boy for the 2006 midterms - will still be there for us. It might even help in Texas.

The definition of 'hoist on own petard': DeLay, master of the recent Texas redistricting, loses all those gained seats down there because of Schiavo and because he is a proven grifter.

Mmmmmmmm...

[sandnsea]

191. Issue, absolutely use

Agreed. Stay on message. Agreed. No matter what.

Those stinging words will be forgotten? :rofl:

I hope so, I honestly do. I don't think so. We'll see.

[pazarus]

212. ah ok, they'll forget?

thats the pacifier you're handing out to stop our hand-wringing? that specific words will just be forgotten? forgotten because the republicans never dredge up old quotes? forgotten because people forget Dean's gaffes?

I'm not convinced they'll just forget. All it takes is a reminder, and they'll be plenty of people to remind us.

[pazarus]

211. ok, i'm sitting

but the only pacifier you can hand out to make me feel more comfortable and less scared is a clear argument that Howard Dean's quote "we're going to use Terri Schiavo later on" won't and can't be used against the Democrats in 2006.

I'm waiting.

p.s. your faith and your strong beliefs in Dean, or the idea that this quote doesn't look bad, are not going to convince me.

[ruggerson]

176. Apparently a number of you don't understand hand to hand combat politics

And I think Dr. Dean is learning.

This is OUR wedge issue. Not theirs. It works for US. Not them. He is absolutely right to use it. It should be one of the top three issues in 06 and 08. It should be hammered as often and as loudly as the Talibornagain party used the panic button of 9/11.

The Republicans want to be the party of frightening big government that intrudes into the very most private medical decisions a family can make.

The Democrats want government OUT of those decisions which should remain a matter between a family and their doctors.

If you think Dean needs to become a bit of a better poker player, I won't argue with you.

But, he's right on target with the message. It's a HUGE winner.

[realFedUp]

178. How the Republicans pushed this one decision through Congress

was wrong. I agree...don't use Terry Schiavo
again forgodsake..she was used so badly by
the wingnuts. I'd let her rest in peace...there
is so much other garbage these people have
done to this country and to people's lives.

[Stinky The Clown]

182. Please try to separate the issue from the person

This is not about Terri Schiavo, the person, it is about the tactics of the Theorcratists who used her.

[sandnsea]

184. That's what Dean should have said

He didn't. I never thought he meant to actually use Terri Schiavo, but rather the issues. However, I'm surprised at the number of people who took it literally. Not a good sign.

[realFedUp]

202. I agree, but the headlines said Dean would use Terrry Schiavo

so unless you get more progressive copy
editors into newspapers...people will
react with their guts first.

[rfkrfk]

199. Dems didn't bother to vote, thats How ,,, one Dem senator voted

only only one Democratic Senator even bothered
to be on the floor for the Schiavo vote,
and he either voted yes, or did not vote.

something similiar could be said about the
House roll call no. 90, that needed 2/3 rds.

[sonias]

187. That's my man, Howard Dean

He's the one with a spine. No apologies needed and none should be given. He's framed it right and we should stick by our message.

And our own DNC spokeswoman is on message backing him up. No retreat and no surrender.

Karen Finney, Democratic National Committee spokeswoman, defended Dean's comments...
"Tom Delay and his cronies want to intrude in personal family matters. Democrats believe that individuals and their families should be trusted to make these very personal decisions, not Tom DeLay and not the government.

I stand with Dean too. Give 'em hell Howard!

Sonia

[wisteria]

189. I don't think he should have said this for the media to pick up on.

Why give away our strategies and sound like we are politicizing this issue?

[madfloridian]

190. Because he knows they know he knows they are still passing laws....

To prohibit the removal of feeding tubes. They are trying to hogtie the judiciary. He is letting them know it will be an issue, like a warning. They are not stopping.

It was like a "we know what you are doing" kind of thing...and "we are not going to let you get away with it" kind of thing.

[Hekate]

196. Give 'em hell, Howard. The rest of you: remember the issue at hand

Repeat after me: Howard Dean is blunt and honest.
(The Repubs make endless excuses for the way Our Dear Leader speaks, they defend the charlatans and criminals in their midst, yet they'll peck ours to death with no remorse for any reason and no reason. Keep it in mind.)

Repeat after me: The issue is the way the Republicans shamelessly exploited this poor woman and in the process dangerously eroded the separation of powers, the separation of church and state, states' rights, the independent judiciary, personal rights, personal privacy, and even the sanctity of marriage, since they sought to override the wishes of a wife expressed to her husband and her husband's efforts to carry them out.
(They brought it up. They made her name a household word. They can live with the consequences. They -- not we -- have plenty to apologize for.)

Hekate

[janx]

198. Well put.

That sums it up.

[sendero]

200. My god...

... listening the the chicken-little nansy-pansies on this thread is making me ill. No wonder the Dem party is going nowhere, too many Dems are spineless weasels. The Repugs announcing of what they were going to use against Dems has hurt them how much?

Of course we are going to use TS as an issue and what the fuck is wrong with saying it. Most Americans saw the whole debacle for what it was, and if the Repugs try to make an issue of what Dean said it will only HURT THEM.

Seriously, you folks who are scared of every word that comes out of Deans mouth are sad. The Repugs are the ones who should be scared.

[pazarus]

207. chicken-little nansy-pansie here

sorry i'm making you ill, but the issue is not Dean giving away obvious secrets. The issue is only Dean saying 'we're going to use terri schiavo later on'.

Anyone who has witnessed how American politics works will agree that some phrases look bad and can ruin a politician or an advantage with the public. the Democrats have used it against Republicans, and the Republicans have certainly used it against the Democrats. It works, even if we might think its stupid. This phrase looks bad. If a Republican had said the exact same quote last week, you'd probably be calling him some worse names then the ones you used for us pansies.

Sometimes it takes a big man to admit when his idols make mistakes. it can happen to anyone, although dean maybe moreso than most. He could have said the same thing without saying the same thing, if you catch my drift.

just remember what happened here. ignoring a problem wont make it go away, and it usually just compounds it. if this quote works against us in 2006 or 2008, then maybe start considering that language can make or break a politician or an idea. the Republicans and most Democrats already know it.

i hope i'm wrong about this being one of those quotes. like many a spineless weasel though, i'm afraid... afraid i'm not wrong.

[sendero]

208. I fully understood...

... the premise over which all this hand-wringing is ostensibly justified. I just don't buy it.

Republicans use this sort of rhetoric all the time, explain to me how bad it has hurt them?

If Dean were running for office, you *might* have a point, but he isn't. Exactly whose candidacy are they going to attribute this horror to?

I respectfully disagree. The right and the media have effectively cowed most Dems into not saying anything at all. Americans who pay any attention to politics understand full well what Dean meant, and for many of us it translates to "we're going to rub the Repugs nose in their stupid politically-driven mistake".

Assuming that Dean facilitates said nose-rubbing, I can totally overlook the fact that he didn't use the tact that good little Dems are expected to use always, and Reps never.

[pazarus]

210. i don't know what tactic

you think he was using here.

republicans don't make mistakes like this all the time, and when they do, we let them hear about it because it often exposes their ugly underbelly. "bring it on", "great political issue", "crusade", lott's honest praise of thurmonds campaign... we dont forget things like that, and they can come back to haunt republicans or get them fired. not a guarantee, but it does happen. usually well-coached republicans with good scripts don't make this kind of mistake.

if the tactic you think he was using was just 'blunt', then ok. you dont have to buy that it is dangerous for the democrats to make it look like they are using terri schiavo for political gain, but its real tough to argue that this quote cant be made to further that argument.

all this hand-wringing might be for nothing, but if i were a republican operative, i'd be making a commercial out of this as soon as the first time dean has any part in making the republicans look like political opportunists in the schiavo case. this one sentence, alone and dangerous, has the power to undermine dean's whole agenda and nullify his goal of "rubbing the Repugs nose in their stupid politically-driven mistake".

i hope he can fight his way out of it, but i know this didnt make it any easier.

[sendero]

215. Again..

.... Dean is not running for office.

And frankly the perception is that Dems won't do anything tough or even talk tough.

I just don't see how this can hurt anyone.

[pazarus]

217. He is a face for Democrats, and

this wasn't talking tough. how tough does "we're going to use Terri Schiavo later on" sound? It sounds weak, frankly. He could have said "We're going to use the Republican's arrogant and intrusive decisions against them". That's a direct shot at Republicans, theres no way to make Dean look like he's going to 'use Terri Schiavo', and its talking tough.

Whether or not he runs for office, he now speaks for the DNC and by extension the Democrats. Remember, its just this one sentence that gets to me. Just try to imagine DeLay saying that one sentence. It isn't talking tough, it's talking without thinking.

[madfloridian]

224. What? Imagine DeLay saying that? You are giving away too much.

First the spiel about how conservatives always give bytes of truth. Now imagine DeLay saying that?

You have let too many little things slip.

"Just try to imagine DeLay saying that one sentence."

Oh, yeah, just imagine. This man DeLay has held politicians in his iron grasp by threats for years. Oh, yeah he would say far more than that.

[pazarus]

226. giving away?

mighty suspicious of trolls around here, I guess...

Let me explain myself, to save you the hassle of rereading my posts and figuring out why I haven't been kicked out of here.

"First the spiel about how conservatives always give bytes of truth."
Ok, what I said was that when social conservatives make mistakes, blunders, is the only time they tell the truth. It is these mistakes--these rare windows into the ugly bigoted nature of their positions--that bring them down. A completely honest social conservative, one without a nice script, wouldn't last long. You can reread my posts on the subject if you'd like to verify.

"Now imagine DeLay saying that?"
Yes. What if DeLay or Bush or any Republican had said the exact same sentence. You, and certainly me, would be all over them. I think it's a stupid thing to say. The difference is, the Republicans really planned on using HER, where as Dean, DESPITE what he said, planned on using the Republicans intervention in the case. Asking you to imagine a statement coming from the other side isn't exactly troll material, its a small exercise in imagination to try to put the issue in another light and let you see why those who repect but don't worship Dean might have seen this as a blunder.

"You have let too many things slip."
Well, you counted two and I counted zero. I'd say recount your two.

"This man DeLay has held politicians in his iron grasp by threats for years. Oh, yeah he would say far more than that."
Are you saying you would have found it perfectly acceptable for DeLay to say "we're going to use terri schiavo later on"? I don't believe you. You might think it was par for the course for him, but you'd still be outraged. If I had more time I'd look back to see what your posts on the martinez memo said about your position on using her for political gain.

Believe it or not, I'm not the enemy. I was a little harsh in calling Dean a clumsy oaf. What he did was clumsy, but he's not generally an oaf. I was upset with him because its the first I've heard of his public speeches in a long time, and, man, that sentence sounded bad.

You can defend his every word if you want to, but please try to see what the power of language can do to people. I tentatively supported Dean's rise to this position, and I was upset by this sentence. Just try to imagine someone who already mistrusts Dean hearing this. Dean's self-stated job is to bring the other side under the Democratic tent, and comments like this, if it gets out and the Republicans use it, aren't going to help that. Are you denying that it sounds bad, or do you just not care how it sounds?

If they use it against us in 2006, end of story. Until then, we won't really know whether this mistake was big or not. If nothing ever comes of it, or if people use the quote to Dean's advantage, I will come to you and admit I was hand-wringing and making a big deal out of nothing, and that you were right. I hope that happens. Please don't call me a troll though, it hurts.

[madfloridian]

225. You sound like you really admire Republican tactics.

I have been noticing that.

[pazarus]

227. People hear what they want to hear sometimes

Admitting Dean made a mistake is about as far from Republican tactics as it can get. They proudly shelter their leaders from any internal criticism and condemn any voice from their own party that dares to speak out against even the most heinous of mistakes.

Look at DeLay right now. They'll defend him no matter what the ethics committee says he did. It's their style, and anyone who goes against it, like Shays, gets called names and practically cast from the party. They hate McCain now because he wants to preserve the filibuster. Anyone who steps out of line in their party gets the cold shoulder or is aggressively put back in place.

Not so with the Democrats. We're a lot more forgiving of debate ad discussion. We don't shield the public from dissent and put up a mask for the public. If one of our leaders makes a mistake, we can admit it without making the party weaker. If Clinton had admitted he made a little indiscretion early on, he would have headed off the impeachment and embarrassing investigation that happened.

Sometimes Democratic leaders, even ones you strongly believe to be infallible, can make a verbal faux pas. The Republican tactic is to deny it and ignore it and cover it up instead of facing it head on.

[voltairine]

203. The Repugs believe that Terry Schiavo was murdered

and that anyone who supported the removal of her feeding tube as an accessory to murder. This won't stop being an issue. The only way to make it a win for the Dems is to make the repugs' abuse of the legislature and courts the issue, even then they'll twist it to: "The party of death wanted to kill this innocent woman." It is that simple -- to them.

[sendero]

209. Guess what?

Only a fraction of Repugs believe that and only a fraction of voters are Repugs.

Most Americans saw right through the whole thing, and if we start tailoring our policies and rhetorics to what a few idiot fundamentalists think, then what's the point?

Its funny to watch the stupider Repugs continue with the propaganda effort even after the train is off the track. Blathering on about "activist judges" when the fact is the law and most Americans are solidly on the side of the judges' decisions. They just can't help themselves, they think everyone wants a theorcracy just because they do.

The are about to see the backlash against that idea.

[renaissanceguy]

230. I wouldn't be surprised to see backlash either, but

I think it's going to take more going downhill, more restrictions on our liberties, before we see the outrage.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues/472476

[madfloridian]

214. Most "real" Christians saw through it.

Some of my friends who are still Southern Baptists saw right through it all, and they were alarmed.

[enki23]

213. not the best choice of words. but dean won't be a candidate, so no biggie

.

[young_at_heart]

218. Dean is tough enough not to be trapped

The right-wing, BIG money think tanks work 24/7 to "feminize" any Democrat they can (or masculinize women such as Hillary). They know 'that' is a big part of the secret to winning. I don't see them doing that to Dean. (read Stephen Ducat)

[d_b]

220. Good for Dean