NYT: Young Catholics Seek to Restore Old Values on Sex

[DeepModem Mom]

Young Catholics Seek to Restore Old Values on Sex
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN

Published: April 14, 2005


ROME, April 13 - No matter who is chosen as the next pope, John Paul II has left behind a generation of committed young Roman Catholics who are already shaping the church in a more conservative mold than did their parents. Church leaders call them Generation John Paul II.

At Catholic universities, these are the students studying the "theology of the body" - John Paul's theological justification for a conservative sexual ethic that includes opposition to contraception, abortion, premarital sex and some forms of assisted reproduction.

In seminaries, they are the young priests who wear the long black cassocks cast off by an earlier generation of Vatican II priests.

In their parishes, these are the youth group members who are reviving traditional spiritual practices like regular recitations of the rosary or "Eucharistic adorations" - praying for long stretches in front of the consecrated host.

"One of the great shocks to me was how conservative the people younger than me are, and these are Catholics from all over the world, not just the United States," said James Keating, 40, an American theologian who is spending his sabbatical in Rome running the Lay Center at Foyer Unitas Institute, a guesthouse for Catholic students....


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/14/international/worldspecial2/14youth.html

[Liberal Veteran]

1. Old values on sex = sex is bad and dirty and only for reproduction.

No thank you.

[leftchick]

3. yep and more Kids when you do get married...

I remember families of 12 and 14 kids when I was a young kid in Catholic school. At least my Mom stopped at seven (one died) And our Priest yelled at her for having her tubes tied even though if she had another child she could have died! The "natural method" ya know. Yikes!

[420inTN]

10. That's odd...

I grew up Catholic (still am). None of the Catholic families had 12 or 14 kids. There was only one family that had more than four kids. Most families had two or three. The family that had the seven kids? The father is gay.

[zipplewrath]

27. Depends heavily upon the ethnicity

There is a tendency to lump all american catholics together. The large family catholics were mostly associated with a few specific ethinicities, I've forgotten who they all were, Polish and Italian were two of them. The "large family" catholic thing really died about with the baby boom so unless you were in school about the early '60s you would have missed it. And if you were a west coaster you probably never really saw it either.

[420inTN]

32. So...

... would you say that it is a Catholic thing, or an ethnic thing?

[zipplewrath]

34. Intersecting sets

Basically it's a "catholic" thang, although the ethnicities tend to be predominately catholic so that's a tad deceiving. To some extent catholicism has ethnic dimensions.

[420inTN]

35. So, I'm not white/black/native american, I'm Catholic?

Hmm... well, it works for the Jews. :silly:

[zipplewrath]

46. Anything ya wanna

Beauty of these arbitrary designations, you can be any or all of them, with hyphens galore.

[leftchick]

38. I grew up in the 60's....

perhaps that is the difference? The average where I grew up was 4-6 children in a family at least. It is very hard for me to come up with a family from back then with less than 4 children. And as others have said about ethnicity I doubt it. I believe it had more to do with the times in the Catholic church. Which, by the looks of this article, they seem to want to regress to.

[NashVegas]

45. I Knew Two Families with 11 Kids

We had five. I knew several families with that or more.

[Debaser]

2. Great. Another step back to the 19th century.

:eyes:

[DeepModem Mom]

4. Indeed -- welcome to DU, Debaser!

[sniffa]

5. missionary position

and under no circumstances, are you to enjoy yourseLf.

[Zerex71]

6. Next thing you know, these ninnies will bring back the "marriage sheet".

You know, the thing with the hole in it for procreation...can't actually enjoy ourselves here on Earth, you know, we have to punish ourselves every step of the way for some supposed afterlife!

[progressoid]

7. Woo hoo!! Way to go Catholics!!

Can we bring back blood-letting too?

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jwirr]

9. As a Lutheran who teaches Christian

morals to my own children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren I approve of their efforts to follow their own religion and take the consequences. What I object to is any efforts to codify their religion into secular law. Back in the "good old days" before Roe vs. Wade that was the essence of Christianity. To personally be different. To accept limitations on your own behavior that the world saw as stupid (some of them were). To face personal temptation and overcome the "world" by rejecting it. To trust God enough so that you were not afraid to live in the midst of a world that did not follow your teachings and to hope that God would use you to show (not coerce) others why you live that way.

And yes if it is left to the priests to teach human sexuality there will be a lot of Catholic girls who think sex is dirty and they are worthless. But that is their problem - I am teaching my family that intelligent choices are what counts!!

[Mandate My Ass]

29. very well put, jwirr

After surviving 12 years of Catholic schooling in the 1970's we were taught to behave in society in a Christlike manner, saving our own souls, actively helping others, and leading by example rather than edict.

I find this increased focus on the resurgence of religion quite interesting because it only focuses on the rigid, ultra-conservative brand of religion rather than the gentler, Christlike feed-the-hungry, heal-the-sick, help-the-downtrodden type of religion.

Not only this article, but recently the focus on pharmacists that refuse to fill BC prescriptions for women on religious grounds, the MSM is giving a lot of newspace to the rigid, punitive aspect of Christianity. These people are finding a lot of help from the legislature as well. If we lose the courts, we will be done for, IMHO.

The ancient Roman emperors found that trying to squelch Christianity only caused it to fluorish, so they tailored it to suit their needs. People who will accept and even welcome repression from their religion will readily accept if from their leaders as well.

[Bob3]

11. Typical NYT Puff piece gibberish

The young people who don't agree have fled the church in droves leaving only fanatics. Attendance is down all across the country and there is a shortage of priests world wide. That says something. The life haters in the church have finally removed the last vestiges of John XXIII's influence. It took 30+ years but the followers of Pious XII are back in charge. That they have run the Church aground means nothing to them. They are in charge and that's it.

[zipplewrath]

28. The end as we know it

It really wasn't appropriate during his funeral and all, but there is a very good chance that JPII presided over the "beginning of the end" of the Roman Catholic Church. It will probably take another couple of centuries, but it is moving into a largely irrelevant phase in Europe and the US. As some have commented, it is already becoming a church of the few fanatics. That becomes difficult to sustain. Declining birth rates and declining clergy will basically spell the end of the basic model. It will always be there, but a bit like the British Monarchy, nothing much more than a tourist attraction. They'll be as relevant as the Amish, or Wiccans, and about as large in true numbers. Politically and socially, they just don't rate anymore, with far more conservative evangelical christians having more influence. Socially churches predominately serve as a moral structure for parents to raise children, and parents can pick and choose quite liberally in that area. Heck, many religions now have schools, a place that the catholic church used to dominate. Heck, Notre Dame can't even win a football anymore ;-)

[megatherium]

37. I used to wonder why Notre Dame football was on TV every weekend

in my market (Louisville, Kentucky). I mean, every weekend. I thought, they're not even that great any more. Then I found out a large, local Catholic high school has been paying the TV station to put Notre Dame on every weekend. Apparently they figure that having the Fighting Irish on every Saturday will increase interest in Catholic education. Either that, or they're simply huge fans.

[zipplewrath]

47. Is it NBC?

NBC had an exclusive contract with Notre Dame to show their home games regardless of opponent. It meant that ND was on, nationally, at least 6 times a year. Virtually no other team has such a contract. ND had an early, and national, football tradition well before many other schools. Furthermore their alumni were particularly disperse, unlike alot of state schools. When college football first started being a weekend TV staple, ND was an easy choice because virtually regardless of market, there were intereseted alumni.

[megatherium]

48. Can't remember, but I'm thinking it's on ABC. nt

[Theduckno2]

43. Remember young people and their "mood rings"?

I'm tempted to think that some of this, though not all, is a bit of a fad. It appears to be a good idea until the grass (no pun intended) looks greener of the other side of the fence. I just hope they do find a code that they can live by.

[Bridget Burke]

12. Of course, some young Catholics are doing this....

But where are the numbers? Is this really a big trend? Huge numbers of young Catholics going backwards?

I doubt there's an official group named "Would Prefer to Avoid an Abortion So We're Serious About Contraception" for other young Catholics. And they'd probably rather NOT advertise themselves. But I'll bet quite a few think that way.

[Demeter]

13. Jesus Christ Would have a Fit!

These poor, deluded, sado/masochistic ignorant indocrinated no-nothings! Somebody save them from themselves, and us from them!

[saltpoint]

14. Since sexual desire predates Church dogma --

-- my money's on the natural order of things, namely that this "movement" is heading for historical obscurity almost before it begins, that it may result in the needless punishment of young people whose bodies are simply telling them the truth, and it suggests that the crowd with the stones was in the right and not What's-His-Name, who asked them to put the rocks down.

How long will Catholic conservatives and Protestant conservatives keep digging adulterers' holes, gather stones, and screech puritanical condemnations while they throw them at people whose neurophysical functioning is simply working properly?

[JohnnyBoots]

15. What ever happened to taking care of the poor , the sick, and

the outcasts of society rather than worrying about where someone sticks their dick!

[saltpoint]

22. Your question, JohnnyBoots, is evidently too difficult --

-- for the conservative factions in churches to handle. I throw in the conservative Protestants with this, too. They definitely can hold their own in a match-up with the conservative Catholics.

My sister's across-the-street neighbors are Kerry Catholics, self-described. They have four kids, all extremely well adjusted and focused young adults by now. I think good parenting like that eclipses the need for organizations like the one in question.

I also like your shift of focus to the needs of the homeless, the sick, then unsheltered, and so on. If a church does not address itself to those needs and instead is worried about where people stick their wieners, I think it has failed as a church.

Loved your post.

[JohnnyBoots]

24. What gets me is

these tele-vangelists who spend 20 million on a church/tv studio, yet won't buy the bum in the alley next to it a sandwich a and a cup of coffee at the very least. I think that combined with all thier hate mongering and bilking old ladies out of their fixed income money are the true definition of evil.

[saltpoint]

33. That's a bingo.

[OHdem10]

16. Such contradictions contrdictions contradictions

The entire week of the the "Death Watch and then duing period
of mourning-Pope lying in state---Story after story emphasided
how the Younger Set Love the Pope but do not agree with his
message. As one Roman Priests puts it --They love the singer
but not his song. Presidents of such Universities as Geogetown and
Catholic University of America stated young people think nothing
of telling them(Professors) "I do not agree with that teaching or this one".

OReilly siad here is a movement oward a great rligious revival--Is the
Gry Lady being used .

I am a Catholic so this is no way intended as disrespectful. I happen to
believe the Cult of Personality influenced the image people have. ThePope was loved and respected but teachings are still being questioned.

[NYC Liberal]

17. Catholic universities and seminaries?

What about Catholic kids in public schools, etc?

[MADem]

18. Oh joy! A return to fooling around and feeling GUILTY about it!

Just another worry in this modern world!

[GOPBasher]

19. Hmmm. I wouldn't mind this, if only

they wouldn't force their morals into public law. I mean, what are they going to want, outlaw abortion, outlaw contraception, outlaw sex between unmarried adults? What will they do, exactly?

[matcom]

20. but premarital sex with young boys is cool!

:sarcasm:

:eyes:

[Stuckinthebush]

21. Yay! More sexual repression!

This can pave the way for increasing numbers of adults who have dysfunctional relationships!

What is the fucking deal with sex? Jeez. Put that energy into poverty, equality, health care, and world peace.

[Patiod]

23. Is this why all the families in my parents' parish

have 10,11,12 kids?

My parents claim the two-to-three-kid families in their parish are "practicing the rythym method" and definitely not going against the Church's teachings on birth control.

I'll believe it when I see big families again

[thebigidea]

25. insert cheap joke about "theology of the body," insert cheap porno music

[MAlibdem]

26. Hahahaha

Tell that to my friends at BC and Providence.

[Tyler Durden]

30. "EVERY SPERM IS SACRED!"

The answer: "Every Sperm Is Sacred", Lyrics by Michael Palin and Terry Jones.

There are Jews in the world, there are Buddists,
There are Hindus and Mormons and then
There are those that follow Mohammad, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six footer,
You don't have to have a great brain,
You don't have to have any clothes on,
You're a Catholic the moment Dad came, because

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirs,
On the dusty ground,
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

Every sperm is wanted,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Hindu, Taoist, Morman,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Every sperm is useful,
Every sperm is fine,
God needs everybody's,
Mine, and mine, and mine.

Let the pagans spill theirs,
O'er mountain, hill and plain.
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

[Lone Pawn]

31. Alright, kids, you stay chaste then.

And we'll go have fun. Good luck with that repression, by the way.

[hedgehog]

36. Folks, are we being played?

It seems to me that the last week has seen a number of articles about conservative young Catholics just in time for the Conclave. I've heard before about conservative young priests. I agree with the person who noted above that this may be a result of a Church hierarchy driving away talent

[napi21]

39. If there's any truth to that article, I bet those young folks don't know

exactly what those old values really were!

There are the obvious ones like abortion, contraception, artificial, and insemination. But there were more than that!

You are NEVER to tell your husband no when he wants sex.

There are never too many children, and you must be thankful and supportive of as many as God sends you.

All sex ourside of marriage is a sin.

You never get a boy excited to the point he will be tempted to have sex before marriage.

All marriages are forever. Remember, your vows are for better or worse until DEATH do us part!



I'm sure there were others, but it's been a very long time since I attended religion class in HS.

[Writer]

40. U2's Song Lyrics Summarize this Beautifully

From "Vertigo" - these kids are facing the overprotective, demanding schedule of their parents who are otherwise disaffected by their true needs. Days of stress stress stress force them to seek feeling something - anything. Even if it means turning back the clock on woman's rights.

Hello, Hello
Hola!
I'm at a place called Vertigo
Lights go down and all I know
Is that you give me something I can feel
You're teaching me ...aaahhh
Your love is teaching me ...aaaah
How to kneel
Kneel

[leesa]

41. Ignorance is alive and well in the Catholic Church

Like Catholics of yore...fuck around as much as you can and make sure you confess...slate wiped clean...repeat.

[Bridget Burke]

49. Your post doesn't have much to do with the article....

The Young Catholics interviewed appear to be avoiding sin, not depending on Confession. And how does that relate to "Ignorance"?

I, myself, think a small sample of Catholic youth is over-represented in this article. And some of them may be going through a "stage"--sex can be complex & they may think that avoiding it is the best way to go.

Your statements indicate a long-standing problem with Catholic doctrine & Catholics in general. Were you raised that way?

[THUNDER HANDS]

42. fuck

this sucks. Thanks Pope. Some awesome legacy, all the kids your preists didn't rape grow up to be conservatives.

[Voltaire99]

44. Who needs sex when you've got your metal Opus Dei pain chain?

From the article:

Part of the reason for the worldwide swing toward conservatism among young Catholics is that the pope encouraged the growth of conservative lay-led movements. There are thousands of such movements but among the largest are Opus Dei...


Jesus wants you to, er, strap this on really tight:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cilice

No? Come ooooooooon. Geez. You would if you loved him!

[Mountainman]

50. I grew up under the old Catholic sex values, that's when everyone knew

that Catholic girls were by far the most sexually active girls around. They knew it was OK to have orgasms before the Hite report came out.

It was a big thing back then to out the "wham bam thank you mame" type of guys who knew nothing about female sexuality. I guess women will be glad to go back to those good old days.

[potatoe]

51. They seem to be rebelling against the prevailing cultural

atmosphere of our times, a rather stale, bleak, and gray cultural atmosphere. They're doing their part to maintain a diversity of lifestyle options from which we can all make our choice.

To be a non-conformist requires courage and vision. Hopefully their non-conformism will be contagious.