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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:21 AM
Original message
3 Minutemen volunteers being investigated
Edited on Thu Apr-07-05 09:22 AM by fryguy
Minuteman Project Volunteers Face Probe

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=1&u=/ap/20050407/ap_on_re_us/border_volunteers

Three volunteers patrolling the border for illegal immigrants were being investigated after a man told authorities he was held against his will and forced to pose for a picture holding a T-shirt with a mocking slogan.

<snip>

Carol Capas, a sheriff's office spokeswoman, said the 26-year-old Mexican man told agents he was physically restrained and forced to hold a shirt while his picture was taken and he was videotaped.

<more>

sounds like wrongful imprisonment if you ask me . . .
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well, that didn't take long did it?
I never thought this was a good idea.
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Zero to stupid in about, oh, 2.5 seconds
I never thought that it was a good idea, either. Klan members don't need to be guarding our borders.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Angry Mobs of Gun-Toting Vigilantes Mass at Mexican Border
Hope to keep undesirables from entering

http://www.ironictimes.com/index.html
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. Yet another Republican idea that PROVED to be a STUPID idea!!
We warned about something like this happening. However, I still believe it will get much, much worse.
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MrTriumph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
40. Yeah, Bush's Open Borders Policy is just asking for trouble.
He is after all, the "Open Borders President"
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Lone_Wolf_Moderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. Just went over to Media Matters. Apparently they've got real live Nazis
working for them down there. Look, I want to deal with illegal immigration as much as the next guy, but when you start allying yourself with neo-Nazis, then we've got probelms.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. "Why are you picking on them?"
Minuteman organizer James Gilchrist defends white supremacists from Alan Colmes: "Why are you picking on them?"

Reacting to Fox News host Alan Colmes's reference to news reports that white supremacists may have joined the Minuteman Project's efforts to prevent illegal immigrants from entering the United States via the Mexican border, Minuteman organizer James Gilchrist condemned supremacists but contended that "there are supremacist groups out there of all races, colors and creeds" and accused Colmes of "picking on" the white supremacists. Gilchrist has acknowledged that "white supremacists want us to wage a full battle at the border," but has denied that he is a racist: "Some people have said I'm racist, and that's just not true. ... My son-in-law is a full-on Mexican, and my grandson is half-Mexican."

http://mediamatters.org/items/200504060003
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
89. What I wanna see
is an armed gang of dudes who look like this start accosting drunk American teenagers in Tijuana and humiliating them for fun.



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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
4. Trying to start their own little Abu Ghraib right here in 'Murika
Edited on Thu Apr-07-05 09:35 AM by ixion
I weep for what was once a great nation. :cry:

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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
95. Yes - emulating their hero-torturers.
A little hero identification with torturers to make the pork and beans taste better...
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
5. Hmm the same mentality that produced the Abu Ghraib photos
Edited on Thu Apr-07-05 09:35 AM by Mari333
idiots.
on edit..looks like we are all thinking "Abu Ghraib"
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
6. The fact that rhese maroons didn't think it was a big deal...
...illustrates perfectly why they shouldn't be there.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
7. Nahhh, These Guys Are Just Patriots!
It's NOT illegal and NOT a recipe for disaster! :sarcasm:
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Golly, it's a few bad apples is all
:sarcasm:
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
8. Was there any pointing at genitalia?
Jeez...
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
10. KICK because I want our own DU xenophobes to see this...
hey guys! Does this look like good ole patriots defending our nation to ya? Hmmm?
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. and there are plenty of them too...
dumbasses... :puke:
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Are you calling DUers that may not agree with you "dumbasses"?
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
65. yup , for supporting white supremacist vigilantes
I SURE AM!! :)
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Who, in particular, are the DUers that you are calling xenophobes?
Can we get some names?
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. awww that's cute
now you want me to violate DU rules. sorry, go fish.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1368641

I'm sure you'll find few here.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. I re-read all of the posts on the thread that you suggested that I read
Edited on Thu Apr-07-05 12:16 PM by Zorra
and did not find a single post that, IMO, would even remotely justify you calling any of the posters on that thread a xenophobe, a racist, or a bigot.

There were some what seemed to me to be valid points brought up on both sides of this issue.

How would you personally suggest we solve this apparent problem that we have with "illegal" immigration?

Do you have a practical, constructive, workable solution in mind?
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
46. obviously you did NOT read that thread completely
or you would have read my suggestions and answered your own question.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. Yes, in fact I did. I will list all of your posts from that thread,
if you wish, but it does not seem to me that any of your posts answer the questions that I asked, which were:

"How would you personally suggest we solve this apparent problem that we have with "illegal" immigration?"

"Do you have a practical, constructive, workable solution in mind?"

Now, very few of your posts in that thread were relevant to my questions. I agree that globalization plays a major part in disrupting populations and causing poverty and migration. And maybe it is true that if we end globalization, poverty induced migrations will stop.

But simply suggesting that we have to stop buying corporate products and end globalization is not going to solve the problem of illegal immigration any time soon, because it will take a massive raising of public awareness effort to even begin such an enormous undertaking. I think you might agree that this just surely ain't gonna happen during the Buh "tenure" in the WH.

So, again,

"Do you have a practical, constructive, workable solution in mind?"

Maybe you could refer to the specific post number of one of your posts that you believe answers my question?




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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. IN a nutshell.
we can't really stop globalization; it's more of a abstract concept than any one concrete process. But we can manage teh dynamics a bit.

First of all, US citizens have to realize that our current rate of consumption cannot be maintained without foreign labor and production, here and abroad. So if we're willing to stop consuming cheap goods and food at such a wasteful rate, we will reduce the demand.

This will probably cause economic and thus political crisis in Mexico (among other places but since this is the country in question...) Probably a civil war so that land can be redistributed so that wage labor is no longer the sole means for the impoverished to earn a living; they can return to subsistence agriculture and maybe some extra for trade. I hear the Zapatistas are restless again....

Fox and is corporate whores will be kicked out and Mexico will have a socialist state.

NAFTA will fall and the US will be forced to move production, or at least some of it, back into the states. Reducing enegery consumption will allow us to redirect efforts into growing our own food again, locally. We may even make a surplus to trade with mexico for their surpluses.

And so on and so forth. The only way to get rid of illegals, in a nutshell, is to restructure our production capacity, get rid of unchecked corporate hegemony, reduce our consumption of foreign made goods, and basically give the greeen light for Mexican civil war or at the very least booting Fox out. Either that or start a bloody useless border skirmish that will sour trade relations with Mexico, which would result in their impoverishment and probably civil war anyway.

The bottom line is, the illegals coming over the border are the end of the line consequence of much deeper problems with the global economy. We're not the only country with this problem. It makes no sense to scapegoat the illegals when tehy are at neoliberal economic policy's meercy as much as the outsourced US worker. Trying to shore up "border security" is putting bandaids on a breaking dam.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Sweet! Thanks....so despite all the "hoopla" caused by the Minutemen
Edited on Thu Apr-07-05 06:54 PM by Zorra
nothing is going to change, no "immigration legislation" can fix the problem, and folks are just going to continue to pour over the border from Mexico and other countries forever, or at least the forseeable future.

You may be right.


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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #54
79. great post nt
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DeaconBlues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
94. So, FarceOfNature
Edited on Fri Apr-08-05 03:50 PM by DeaconBlues
what do you have to say now that this whole story has turned out to be a prank pulled by a college student with no association with the Minutemen? Hmmmm? What are you going to do to take do away with the nasty little thing called reality? We xenophobes would like to know.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
97. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
14. Ah, the immigrant makes a claim, the accused are white men,
so the immigrant must be right. Because it fits people's preconceptions. Is that what I'm actually reading, or did I miss the introduction of actual evidence beyond the accusation?

There's a charge. There'll be a probe. Maybe something beyond an accusation and claims of innocence will be forthcoming. There's the video, which should be interesting ... if not diced and spliced to substantiate a particular belief.

Until then, all we have are one accusation, some claims of innocence, and our own prejudices to work with.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. damn those brown people sure like to make a fuss!
:sarcasm:
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. You're absolutely right.
Obviously if somebody is going to go to all the trouble of making an accusation, he must be telling the truth. Especially if (as it appears) they're caught doing something they shouldn't be doing.

Does make the courts a bit superfluous, don't you think?
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. speaking of superfluous...
a guess a bunch of gun-totin' redneck racists makes the Border Patrol police a bit superfulous, eh?
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
44. I know my neighborhood watch and
the car alarms made the police completely superfluous. Yep, after Viper was available on the market, no cars were ever stolen in West LA.

So if you have one, obviously the others are useless.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. lemme get your analogies straight here....
the "minutemen" are like Viper car alarms and me voicing my opinion on an internet chat board is a threat to the legal system? Why thank you for bestowing upon me these great powers! Now where shall I begin? :crazy:
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #44
66. "No cars were EVER stolen in West LA?"
Edited on Thu Apr-07-05 09:26 PM by Redstone
Pretty broad assertion. Got some facts to back that one up?

Statistics? Time periods? Cause and effect?

Redstone
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #66
71. Dude....
I'm almost POSITIVE that his post was dripping with sarcasm....to the point that I think I got it on my shoes...
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #44
88. *
Edited on Fri Apr-08-05 02:44 PM by LibertyorDeath
*
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Who was it that they detained?
You think they were doing something they were not doing? One report I read identified him only as "a man". Another identified him as an "illegal migrant". I don't know what the law is in Arizona but if it is that you can detain someone that is doing something illegal (citizen's arrest) then they likely will not have any charges.

We need to know if the guy was crossing into the U.S. illegally or if he was a U.S. citizen. I suspect we will see a story in the coming days that the investigation concluded without any charges being filed against the people that detained him.

What is scary, though, is if people started using that law (if it exists) to start detaining other people because they thought they are illegal. What a nightmere that will be. Talk about profiling. At least in the desert - that part of the desert near the border - there is a pretty good chance the guy is illegally crossing into the U.S.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. More snips from that article
Barton is one of the three volunteers. He told agents that they waved the man over to them, offered him food and water, and gave him the T-shirt and money before the Border Patrol arrived.

Deacon said project organizers were told by sheriff's officials that the incident wasn't a problem. But Capas said the investigation was continuing and authorities were reviewing the videotape that Barton provided to the deputies.

Meanwhile Border Patrol apprehensions of illegal immigrant have dropped notably in the Naco area since civilian volunteers began gathering there.

Except for Wednesdays incident, Border Patrol officials said the volunteers have remained peaceful.
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MrTriumph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
41. Oh, maybe this wasn't such a clamity after all. Thanks for the post
They gave the guy some water & a shirt. Man, am I upet.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
67. Hold on just a cotton-pickin' minute..
If they were calling the border patrol over to arrest the guy, why did they give him money?

I smell halibut.

Redstone
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #67
78. Could be their just nice guys.
Actually it's pretty common along the border. Many times locals find illegals crossing out in the middle of nowhere, give them food, water, transportation and money. Nobody wants to see these people die out in the desert, even the ones that don't want them here.
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Power Trowell Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. OK so now we are believing the MSM?
And disregarding the innocent till proven guilty presumption?

Got it.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. No, precisely the other way around.
I'm saying that I don't know that the "Minutement" are guilty.

Most other people posting here certainly seem to assume so.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. Jump to conclusions
I'm with you that we can not jump to conclusions on this. My first thought would be that they guy is in the middle of the desert near the border and he should not be here. It will be bad for the minutemen people if it turns out the guy is a U.S. citizen.
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Power Trowell Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. Igil - I was agreeing with your comment
" Ah, the immigrant makes a claim, the accused are white men,



so the immigrant must be right. Because it fits people's preconceptions. Is that what I'm actually reading, or did I miss the introduction of actual evidence beyond the accusation?

There's a charge. There'll be a probe. Maybe something beyond an accusation and claims of innocence will be forthcoming. There's the video, which should be interesting ... if not diced and spliced to substantiate a particular belief.
"

_________________

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Mike
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. YIKES! ((((THUD)))
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. What, you believed me?

Yee-Hah! Minuteman Project to the Rescue!
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
25. Citizens Arrest is legal in Arizona
They can only be charged if the detainment was found to be unlawful, and if the immigrant really was an illegal in the process of crossing over, then AZ law kicks in and allows the detainment to stop the commissioning of a crime.

I doubt the t-shirt and sign were legal, but I'm not sure what they'd charge them with for that.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Am I missing something?
It does seem odd that they would be investigated fro detaining an illegal migrant. The guy was illegal after all. Now, if he turns out to be a U.S. citizen, that is a completely different matter.

Anyhow, my first thought when I saw this story was, How can they be in trouble for detaining someone that is crossing into the country illegally. Am I missing something on this one?
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. if he turns out to be a U.S. citizen, that is a completely different matte
Then he would be a trespasser.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
43. Only allowed to detain if they witness a felony.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Are you sure it's a felony-only state?
That varies from state to state, and I hadn't seen any references to that anywhere.

I know that here in California the law says that you can perform a citizens arrest for ANY crime committed in your presence, but only for felonies if the crime wasn't committed in your presence.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #48
74. Not failure with AZ law.
What i could find on their state site, said a felony committed in your presence.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
60. That's good information. Now, what would a felony be?
We will get to the bottom of this one!
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #60
75. Trespassing is not a felony in AZ, or any other state that i know of.
Interestingly enough I've yet to find out what the charges are for illegal immigration.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #75
87. There are no charges for illegal immigration
"Interestingly enough I've yet to find out what the charges are for illegal immigration."

Apparantly the charges are nothing since there are about 10 million people in the U.S. illegally and freely going about their business. That, and the fact that the U.S. immigration has been told not to look for anyone already here illegally.

Dang, if you are in China and have overstayed your visa or for some other reason they want you to leave, they escort you to your hotel, watch as you back your belongings and then drive you to the airport.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. "Citizens Arrest is legal in Arizona"
Would like to see a link to that.

In TX i can confront a trespasser on my property but i can't detain. If i ask the trespasser to leave and they don't, thats a different story.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #25
42. Only legal if a felony is committed in your presence.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. OK, here's the law, I looked it up.

SS 13-3884

Arrest by private person
A private person may make an arrest:

1. When the person to be arrested has in his presence committed a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace, or a felony.

2. When a felony has been in fact committed and he has reasonable ground to believe that the person to be arrested has committed it.


It looks like I was wrong. The only misdemeanor that a citizen can arrest on in Arizona is "breach of the peace". If the illegal immigrant was acting peacefully. there was no legal grounds for them to detain him.

Mea culpa. :dunce:
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #49
72. I suggest you look up "breach of the peace"
under AZ law. Just about any criminal act can be a "breach of the peace" if the statute is worded loosly enough...
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #72
80. Kinda like disorderly conduct in TX
It's a pretty broad paddle.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #49
76. there was no legal grounds for them to detain him.
Thats true, but they do have the right to approach and question if it's on private property.
By the way, it was announced that the investigation of the 3 MM is over, no charges filed.
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LoganW Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #25
57. Wait wait
so according to you it's legal for a bunch of white folks to detain any brown skinned person they see? Wow. Hope the klan doesn't find out.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #57
85. That's not what I said at all.
Technically, any person can attempt to place any other person under arrest for anything they want. If the charges against the detainee don't hold up, however, then the arrestors can be charged with false imprisonment and a few other crimes, AND they'll be liable for lawsuits in criminal court.

There's nothing wrong with detaining someone who committed a crime, but the onus is on the arrestor to make damned sure that the person really did it.
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
34. Oh hell, I'm waiting for stuff like this to happen


from the article:
Carol Capas, a sheriff's office spokeswoman, said the 26-year-old Mexican man told agents he was physically restrained and forced to hold a shirt while his picture was taken and he was videotaped.


The shirt read: "Bryan Barton caught an illegal alien and all I got was this T-shirt."


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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
35. White supremicists have been used by GOP as terrorists for years.
And now they are being used as part of a larger campaign against judges.

See this thread about a Pentagon manual for terrorizing judges and others using criminals.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1708564
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clem_c_rock Donating Member (989 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
36. I can guarentee 99% of the minutemen are shit kicking rednecks
I would give my right arm to swamp them w/ Mexico for their immigrants.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
39. "Minutemen", yeah right....
:freak::freak::freak::freak::freak:
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
45. Rare photo of the three practicing "illegal alien detaining holds"


Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck!!!
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
50. I just posted a new topic; the man was not held against his will
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
51. Perfect black-ops shit.
*'s true base (the elite) LOVES illegal immigration.
*'s fake base (freeps) HATES illegal immigration.

So, you've got a situation where the corporate media report on a win-win story for Bushco. The corporate media hold up these somewhat distasteful folks as representative of anyone who opposes illegal immigration--thereby chilling thoughtful discussion by sane people on this issue. Simultaneously, the freeps will support these yahoos (plants?) regardless, and then call the media "liberal" for reporting/acknowledging this incident. Who wins? The wealthy elites and corporations, naturally.

It certainly brings back memories of all those "anarchists" protesting free trade in Seattle over a decade ago.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #51
81. Looks like you've figured this whole thing out. Great post. nt
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neuvocat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
53. Hey!!! More publicity!!!
a-holes.
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LoganW Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
56. Oh gee
where are all the "these people aren't racists" folks now?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
58. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DeaconBlues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Thanks for the link
Certain people's attempts here at DU to make the Minutemen fit their preconcieved notions borders on psychosis. Thanks for injecting a little bit of reality here.
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Itsthetruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Want Reality? Here's A Dose Of Reality On The Border Patrols
Scratch below their public relations front just a little bit and you will discover these border patrol outfits and leaders are in fact bigots of the worst kind. The leaders of the border patrol including Gilchrist have no objections to people waving the confederate flag at their events. And they post on their websites the most vile racist propaganda from their supporters. Should we ignore that?

By no measure are these characters progessives who just want to "protect" the jobs of "Americans". They have not said nor done anything to protest the "export" of jobs to cheap labor nations by big corporations.

These great "defenders" of our jobs and living standards just can't seem to find the words to protest corporate outsourcing, NAFTA, downsizing and wage cutting. They are dead silent on these very real attacks on the living standards of the American people.

And that's not just an accident or mere oversight on their part.

Rather than take on big business, the border patrol outfits prefer to scapegoat and blame undocumented workers for the growing economic crisis in this nation. They of course shed tears over the exploitation of poor undocumented workers by greedy corporations. However, they oppose efforts by labor unions to organize these workers to put an end that exploitation!

I don't think these border viglantes give a damn about the exploitation of undocumented workers or any workers, including citizens! Read what they have to say in their own words!

Here's a dose of reality for you.


FROM THE MINUTEMAN WEBSITE:

WELCOME

The Minuteman Project is a grassroots effort to bring Americans to the defense of their homeland, similar to the way the original Minutemen from Massachusetts (and other U. S. colonies) did in the late 1700s. Like them, we want to bring to this effort only what few personal possessions we can carry...plus our heart, mind and spirit.

It is a call to peacefully assemble at the Arizona-Mexico border to bring national awareness to the decades-long careless disregard of effective U.S. immigration law enforcement. It is a reminder to Americans that our nation was founded as a nation governed by the "rule of law", not by the whims of mobs of ILLEGAL aliens who endlessly stream across U.S. borders.

Accordingly, the men and women volunteering for this mission are those who are willing to sacrifice their time, and the comforts of a cozy home, to muster for something much more important than acquiring more "toys" to play with while their nation is devoured and plundered by the menace of tens of millions of invading illegal aliens.

Future generations will inherit a tangle of rancorous, unassimilated, squabbling cultures with no common bond to hold them together, and a certain guarantee of the death of this nation as a harmonious "melting pot."

"At the current rate of invasion the United States will be completely over run with ILLEGAL aliens by the year 2025...only 21 years away. ILLEGAL aliens and their offspring will be the dominant population in the U.S. and will have made such inroads into the political and social systems that they will have more influence than the U.S. Constitution over how the U.S. is governed. That ugly consequence is already taking place. The United States of America is under invasion." --- James Gilchrist - Founder Of The MinuteMan Project

How sweet!

AND HERE ARE SOME OF THE LETTERS OF SUPPORT POSTED ON THE MINUTEMAN WEBSITE:

The MinuteMan Project - Positive feedback - letters from supporters

I am a Captian with the U.S. Army where I am currently serving in Afghanistan for the second time. Most of my co-workers agree that there is nothing to gain from more immigrants entering the US from Mexico. We strongly believe in taking any means necessary to stop the flow of illegal immigration. Whatever it takes.

.... European countries have such a better fix on illegal immigration. A country there requires everyone to have a national ID, that is very hard to fake. Much like a passport. Why doesn't the US have a national ID. This would allow police to deport anyone that is not in compliance.

Second, I hate to think that our forefathers secured the country through many wars, only for us to loose it because the mexicans breed at such a higher rate, and cross into the US so fast. In my hometown of Oklahoma you can't go to a flee market without seeing an illegal mexican woman with her 7 kids. We are loosing the country simply through numbers, and must close the border to these people. They are uneducated, and have nothing to offer the US except some cheap manual labor.

.... our country fills up with mexicans, cubans, and haitians. What the hell is going on. I would rather have people that are like us and can contribute to the US in my country instead of someone that will simply drain our social welfare system, crowd our schools with their seven kids, raise crime, and simply never blend into our society.
R.

I have been interested in your organization since I heard about in the Rush Limbaugh show when you first started out.
G.J.

I am from ... Ca and I am tired of hearing about how racist the minuteman project is. Even though my name is ...I am Hispanic. if you could use a brown face for a couple of days I would be more than happy to sacrifice sometime from my vacation.
M.H.

the great state of south carolina is being over-run by illegals. my hat is off to you guys. these people must be stopped.
I'm a citizen that sees on a dailey basis how the open borders are destroying America and how the security of this nation is gravely threatened but politicians pandering to the Latino population in the U.S.
M.L.

We have heard about your organization through Bill O'Reilly on FOX News, and CNN News ....
E.H.

I can help. I have experience. Navy, ... Firearms Academy, ....
I can spot movement for miles.
S.W.

believe no one could more eloquently state the concern we have of ignoring our southern border and the total disregard for American law by our southern neighbor, Mexico, and its supportive groups within the legal borders of the United States, aka; MALDEF, La Raza, Lulac and other racist organizations.

HisFox] countrys' coordination with the afforementioned Mexican groups to influence politics within our own borders is nothing less than what Nikita Khruschev did with Russian spies years ago and is tantamount to a declaration of war against anyone living in the United States....
R.T.

I at least want to encourage you to keep up the good work no matter how much the liberal media distorts your efforts or attacks you.
G.M.

My congrats. to you in this endeavour. We here in S.C. are under an 'invasion' of sorts by illegals that drive w/o lisences and/or insurance---reproduce at alarming rates and fund their newly born children with our tax dollars.
J.B.

As a Border Patrol Agent, I'm in the "trenches" and see daily the complete disregard for our country (represented by all of the trash and water bottles) that these invaders leave in their wake. More importantly, I realize what is in store for our country as people whose only loyalty is to Mexico gain even more of a political foothold.

Liberal-minded people say that illegal aliens are just flocking here to work the jobs we won't work and make a better life for their poor children, etc. etc. What they fail to mention is the benefits the illegals are really seeking:

No taxes! Free medical! Free American education! Free public assistance! & all the money they make goes right back into their
foreign homeland's economy, as they carry it south to their families still living in countries below our border.
Anonymous, please.

I was the 2004 Constitution Party candidate for the U.S. Senate here in South Carolina, and I visited Simcox and went out on patrol with him and some other volunteers in July. I wish you all success and Godspeed.
Patrick
Simpsonville, South Carolina

We face the conquest of the United States of America -- without a shot being fired .... smuggling organizations ferry countless numbers of Chinese illegal aliens to Washington, Oregon and California. Vancouver, Canada sports a large community of ethnic illegal alien Chinese "fresh off the boat".
GOD help us.
C.
Tucson, Arizona

I spent 15 yrs. living in Mesa, AZ so the invasion of our culture and language enrages me.

Here in California, my wife and I refuse to speak Spanish, and are not ashamed of our own Heritage and language (German/Italian, but we speak English).
Sincerely,
James D. P.

California is bankrupt because it has become the welfare
state for mostly Mexican citizens illegally in our country.
American citizens by the Arizona border suffer losses of property and are in danger of physical harm from the invaders. Our national parks are being destroyed by the hordes that camp there waiting for their smugglers.
Haydee P - Ca.

am fed up and would like to know about defending my turf with a weapon. The illegals up in this area do not ask for food or water, they just inquire about cash and weapons. And they certainly do NOT want to work. We had several citizens killed last year by the illegals ....
Dick

Mr. Gilchrist,

I'm a DHS officer. I heard you on the Sean Hannity show today.
My hat's off to you for what you are trying to accomplish.

Then you also have to contend with the liberal do-gooders of the world who have the mainstream media as a mouth piece.
DHS Officer
Annonymous (for fear of being fired)

It is hard to believe that politicians responsible for protecting the sovereignty of the US have done nothing to stem the flow of illegal immigrants that have cost this country so much in social services, lost jobs and lowered wages, increased crime, education and health costs, sapping Social Security, etc..

The fact is that they've stolen jobs from Americans.
Thomas V.
Pennsylvania

America is overrun with illegal aliens, and we have already lost much of life as we knew it. Hospitals are closing, the educational system is in the toilet, the welfare system no longer exists for Americans who need assistance, Social Security has been depleted to the point of "pay as you go," and population growth has encroached on our wildlands. Food, water, gas, and electric energy is at an all time low, and we have far exceeded the "carrying capacity" of the United States. We have depleted the fossil fuels that power our automobiles, and provide us with heat in the winter. My grandchildren may be facing life on a barren earth, and this thought chills my bones; yet population keeps on breeding!

This is not about race or ethnic group.
Sincerely,
Liz D.
Hayward, California




Are these border patrol vigalantes violent? Listen to what
Jennifer Allen, executive director of the Border Action Network said on Democracy Now this past Tuesday:

"The only folks that we're seeing committing criminal acts are the vigilantes that are out patrolling the border. We have four civil lawsuits right now that are pending other vigilante activities. The Minuteman Project is not the first time that we've had people out patrolling, looking for immigrants, detaining them at gunpoint. And what we have seen, too, is that what happens is the folks pull out their gun. Folks are getting shot at. Folks have been kicked. Folks have been dragged around. Folks have been yelled at. Folks have been bitten by dogs, thrown on the front of ATVs and dragged through the desert scrub. You want to talk about criminal activities, that's first and foremost."

Jennifer Allen continued .....

"We also need to see on a more smaller and intermediate sense is that the local officials from the Cochise County Attorney, the county in southern Arizona where most of these vigilante activities are happening, to the Arizona Attorney General and the Arizona U.S. Attorney need to step up, do their job and prosecute these vigilante groups for their criminal activities, which is the everyday activities of rounding people up, detaining them illegally, impersonating law enforcement, organizing militias. These are all crimes at both the state and federal level. The fact that these officials have done nothing in spite of massive community mobilizations over the last two years has created this climate of impunity, where Mr. Gilchrist and other people from around the country think that they can just come into southern Arizona and do what they want."

And she explained ....

"I can tell you what we have seen. You know, the organization is a community organization based out of Douglas and Nogales, communities on the ground. So what we have seen for years. You know, what you all are doing is absolutely nothing new."

------------------------------------------------------------------


Border Vigilantes Armed With Assault Weapons Terrorize Local Douglas Families And Children

Victims file civil lawsuit against Barnett family & call for state prosecution

On October 30th, 2004, border vigilante Roger Barnett detained members of the Morales and English families in Douglas, Arizona, threatening them with a loaded AR-15 assault rifle and attack dogs, and barraging them with verbal abuse and racist insults. The children, ages 9-11, and their parents, who believed Barnett intended to murder them, suffered severe emotional trauma.

The Morales and English families, with the support of Border Action Network held a press conference on Monday, November 29th, 2004 announcing the civil lawsuit both families are bringing against Roger, Donald and Barbara Barnett.

“I didn’t serve six years in the United State Navy so that my family’s civil rights could be violated in our town of Douglas,” said Ron Morales, a United States Navy veteran, U.S. citizen, and long-time resident of Douglas. Mr. Morales was outraged that the armed vigilante attacked his family and that Barnett has been doing the same to immigrants crossing the Arizona desert for nearly ten years.

The families announced the lawsuit in order to bring attention to the community-wide effects of vigilante activities in southern Arizona and to demand an end to the tolerance offered to such dangerous groups by state and federal law enforcement agencies that have declined to investigate or prosecute Barnett and other vigilantes for previous incidents.

http://www.borderaction.org/news2.php?articleID=13
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #63
73. Amazing....I read that Border Action Network story....
and nowhere in it did it mention that they were confronted where they had no business being and where the people who confronted them DID have business being.

If you come into my house in violation of the law, do I have an obligation to be nice to you? Of course not. They (the people suing) were breaking the law, plain and simple.
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Itsthetruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #73
84. You Own The United States???!!!!!
"If you come into my house in violation of the law, do I have an obligation to be nice to you? Of course not."

Are you claiming all land north of the Mexican border as your "private property"?
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. How do you get "You Own The United States???!!!!!" from
If you come into my house?
You lost me on that one.
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Itsthetruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #86
96. An Analogy
Edited on Fri Apr-08-05 05:15 PM by Itsthetruth
Your house is your property. You made an analogy between your house being "invaded" by unwanted Mexicans and the great southern "invasion" of the United States. So you also own the United States?

You wrote: "If you come into my house in violation of the law, do I have an obligation to be nice to you? Of course not. They (the people suing) were breaking the law"

So do you also think the Minuteman bigots should have shot them? I assume that's what you'd do if someone broke into your house.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #63
91. No matter how bigotted they are, they have rights
Just because you disagree with their views does not mean their rights are abrogated.
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DeaconBlues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. What, no reaction to this article?
Come on, people, try to spin this news out of existence. We "racists" are waiting.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #62
69. you were so right
it is amazing what is going on on some of these threads. American citizens freely assembling are the "bad guys" these days. NOT!!!
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Cicero Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Amazing, first the story supports their preconceived notions...
...that the Minutemen are all a bunch of racist redneck A-holes, and they're shouting it from the rooftops.

Then we find out there's nothing to it, and here's the response:

<crickets chirping>

Go figure. :shrug:

Later,

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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. you're so right
I started a new thread on that story a few hours ago and of course some will say the Mexican consul was probably paid off, the Americans are still "vigilantes" etc. Nothing was mentioned of the fact the illegal alien didn't belong in the USA. Mind-boggling.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #61
82. Did you really expect one.
Seems there was a pretty good example of Vigilantism going on here.

These men were tried and hanged before the investigation even started.

Thanks for the link.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #58
90. "whole innocent till proven guilty notion is so quaint."
That only applies to people we like, you know that.

With the second caveat always being "Well freepers did it first and even though we find their behavior abhorrent we'll engage in the same." So we're assholes and hypocrites.

Gotta love politics next to religion its the best moralistic gymnastics one can do easily!

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
68. kick for thugs
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
77. Posted about this 24 hours ago in GD cuz it wasn't LBN (12 hours old) THEN
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3440374&mesg_id=3440374

So late breaking only refers to when YAHOO noticed a story? :shrug: OK, got it. I'll remember that.
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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #77
83. notice the time of the OP before criticizing
Original Post was Thu Apr-07-05 10:21 AM - discussion has just continued since then.
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
92. Wow! 4 days to expose...
what we knew already. Cheers!
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. Try again
Investigation complete, no charges filed.
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