Law would put 'In God We Trust' in schools - Pennsylvania

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05097/484170.stm

The national statement of faith, "In God We Trust," has been appearing on coins since 1864, and has been the country's motto since 1956. But should it be appearing in each of Pennsylvania's tens of thousands of public classrooms?

A proposed law, now awaiting action in the state House, would require the motto to appear in every public school classroom, auditorium and cafeteria in Pennsylvania.

If it gains steam, the "National Motto Display Act," as it's being called, is likely to begin a battle pitting familiar foes -- proponents say it's an historical motto that harmlessly brings a little bit of God into schools, while opponents say it's a possible breach of the church-state wall.

"It sounded right to me," said Rep. Bob Bastian, R-Somerset, recalling the first time the bill crossed his desk. Bastian is one of the bill's sponsors. "We're a country that was formed by Christian-thinking people, and we need to continue to have our trust in God."

[adwon]

1. You know

Rather than fight this on ideological grounds, Democrats should just ask,"Isn't this a fucking waste of time?" Perhaps they should make a point of showing just how many other necessary items get delayed or ignored when the GOP decides to push this horseshit.

To recap, don't argue it on right and wrong. Argue that government has other priorities and when those are covered, maybe we'll look at it. By the time all those other priorities are covered, well...they're just never complete, are they?

[Kerrytravelers]

3. Here here, adwon! Excellent idea! I second that motion.

It really is a waste of time and is a distraction, isn't it? Is this suppose to convert children? I'll just tell my children to ignore it and in my classroom, I certainly wouldn't display it promidently. On second thought, I'd take mottos from other religions and post them up with the same prominance as "In God We Trust."

Ha ha- take that rethugs!

[rodeodance]

4. What other priority is there than GOD (they will ask). uu... this will be

sucker!! (for the Dems)--it is like arguing against GOD!!!!!

[adwon]

11. Maybe I'm a bad Catholic

but it strikes me that if God feels His honor to be impugned, He's a hell of a lot more capable than me of dealing with that. In absence of divine pronouncements to the contrary, I think it can be safely assumed that God takes no position on putting His name in schools. However, I am fairly certain that He's not thrilled with doing this in lieu of anti-poverty programs...you know, that whole "Whatever you do for the least of Me, you do for Me" thing?

Everytime I think I've hit my cynical peak, these nimrods manage to test my bullshit meter.

[Geo55]

14. Zackly,

"To believe in God or in a guiding force because someone tells you to is the height of stupidity. We are given senses to receive our information within. With our own eyes we see, and with our own skin we feel. With our intelligence, it is intended that we understand. But each person must puzzle it out for himself or herself."
Sophy Burnham

[renaissanceguy]

5. I agree too. Good point!

Just about everything those RW nuts are doing is a waste of our time.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.20383992

[MeinaShaw]

42. They should try In Money We Trust

Suggestion for the other side. What they should be fighting for is to display a large picture of a $1.00 coin. They could say it was to promote capitalism and the message they really want would be there.

But they want a fight is really what they are after. I'm tired of the preaching in our schools - from everyone. What the heck happened to just teaching kids reading, writing, and woodshop?

[currents]

46. God is fake, Religion is not truth, Creation is wrong

This is what should be taught.

[Kerrytravelers]

47. What shold be taught is:

a god or religion is a prsonal belief, religions all share commone traits and tell us about the people of that time and/or region, and creation is one way people theorize the beginning of the world in terms of religion, but there are other theories as well that are based on science.

[coda]

49. Why in the world would you want that taught?

What is your problem?

[grytpype]

2. Jesus H. Christ.

Fucking dumbfucks. They think they are being patriotic, when nothing could be more unAmerican.

[rodeodance]

6. you hit right on--We are in the midst of Patriatism/God at this moment

in our country!!

[rodeodance]

7. this is happening in other states also. UT and LA

The "In God We Trust" campaign new to Pennsylvania, but not to other states. Legislatures in South Carolina, Virginia, Mississippi, Ohio, Utah and Louisiana, among others, have either approved the display of the motto in public classrooms, or have at least discussed such measures.

In Pennsylvania, House Republicans are the main backers of the "In God We Trust" proposal, though three Democrats also put their names to the bill.

The bill says the display of the motto -- and an explanation of its origin -- is part and parcel of a well-rounded civics education, the same as a review of the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, the Pledge of Allegiance, national anthem, important court decisions and texts written by the founding fathers.

"A proper understanding of United States history and government is essential to good citizenship," the bill says. The bill says nothing, though, of "Christian-thinking" founders.......

[Lorien]

15. Our founders feared Christian fundamentalism

I think it was Jefferson that wrote that religious fundamentalists could destroy our democracy, though I don't have the quote on hand.

[Larkspur]

23. Actually Jefferson and Madison feared and had contempt for the clergy

They saw religious clergy as spiritual tyrants and willing to succor political tyranny as long as they were given special status.

[xxqqqzme]

18. exactly - every time I see one of

these divisive bills...I immediately think WTF R they covering up now? There is always hidden motive.

[0rganism]

8. Our national motto is "E Pluribus, Unum" ("From Many, One")

Why can't these reporters get it straight? Never mind the republican politicians, I expect them to prevericate. But the media just continues its drumbeat of idiocy.

Attention Defecit Disorder is not a disease, it's a survival skill.

[Art_from_Ark]

16. Actually, the reporter DID get it right

The *current* national motto is, indeed, "In God We Trust", which replaced "E Pluribus Unum" in 1956

http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_mott.htm

[0rganism]

17. No, "E Pluribus Unum" was *not* replaced by "In God We Trust"

"In God We Trust" was added as another motto in 1956, and forced onto the currency in a prime case of political grandstanding. The reporter treats it as the only motto, instead of one added in the throes of the Red Scare to deter "atheistic communism."

Look at your USA coinage. It will still have "E Pluribus Unum" inscribed upon it, as required by law.

[Art_from_Ark]

26. No, the motto was replaced

From the US Treasury's own web site:

"A law passed by the 84th Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by the President on July 30, 1956, the President approved a Joint Resolution of the 84th Congress, declaring IN GOD WE TRUST the national motto of the United States"

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.html

"E Pluribus Unum" on coins now merely serves as a required inscription (like "Liberty").

[0rganism]

31. No, it was not replaced

From the same freaking UST website, describing the Lincoln penny:

'Between these, in the center of the coin, are the denomination and UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, while curving around the upper border is the national motto, E Pluribus Unum, which means "One out of Many."'

http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/lincoln-cent.shtml

So we've got two national mottos, one of which has been in use on the Great Seal of the United States of America since the 1790s and required for all coins since 1873, and another which was pushed by religious zealots during the Civil War and finally enacted as law during the Red Scare. Feel free to decide which one you'd prefer to see hanging on a plaque in a public classroom. ;)

[Zhade]

39. Thank you. It's frightening to see revisionist history here on DU!

Though in this case I think it was an honest mistake.

[Art_from_Ark]

41. Let's look at the original 1956 law, shall we?

On July 30, 1956 a law was passed stating that "the national motto of the United States is hereby declared to be 'In God we trust'." (70 Stat. 732. 36 U.S. Code 186).

http://usscouts.org/flag/sealmotto.html

Notice that the law does not say "In God we trust is hereby declared to be *a* national motto", but rather "the national motto of the United States is hereby declared to be 'In God we trust'." Pretty well indicates that the old motto was being superseded. And the State Department emphasized that the new motto was *the* national motto in 1963:

'In 1963 the Department of State took the following position: "'In God we trust'" is the motto of the United States. '

However,"it seems to the Department, nevertheless, that there is ample basis both in history and in law for calling 'E Pluribus Unum' *a* motto of the United States." The Congress has used both."

So the 1956 law stated unequivocally that "the" (not "a") motto was to be "In God we trust", but subsequent interpretations have left room for the old motto to be included as "a" motto.

Personally, based on the language of the original law, and having heard of no subsequent legal act to the contrary, I will maintain that the old motto was superseded, although it is still maintained superficially out of tradition and to provide a bone for those who complain about having a religious national motto in an ostensibly secular nation.

[Zhade]

51. "Ostensibly" secular?

This country was founded with the notion of separation of church and state as constitutional law. Do you oppose the separation of church and state?

Why do I feel like I'm listening to the late, not-lamented AliciaKeyedUp here?

[cap]

22. maybe we can reframe the debate:

"E Pluribus, Unum" vs "In God We Trust"...

this way we look pro-patriot AND inclusive...

we have a nice patriotic motto that includes everyone even the atheists.

[0rganism]

32. I'll take "E Pluribus Unum" over "In God We Trust" any day

Heck, anyone who's read the Bible should know better than to trust God.

[rocktivity]

9. Not all Americans trust in, believe in, or believe there IS a God

Wouldn't this law discriminate against them since they wouldn't be members of that "we?" Instantly unconstitutional, and definitely not "harmless."

E Pluribus Unum/Out of Many, One is a more inclusive idea. Trust in God on your own time. And I really wish they'd stop using "faith" as an excuse for not saying "enforced Christianity."

:headbang:
rocknation

[Zhade]

40. You're right, which means of course that you're "persecuting" Christians.

NT!

[Jesus Saves]

10. "eternal wall of separation between church and state"

That was Thomas Jefferson's idea.

[rocktivity]

12. "The bill says the display of the motto...

'is part and parcel of a well-rounded civics education...A proper understanding of United States history and government is essential to good citizenship...'"

The separation of church and state is "part and parcel of a well-rounded civics education" which lends itself to "a proper understanding of United States history and government" too!

:headbang:
rocknation

[SW FL Dem]

13. The local Christian Coalition tried to do that here

a few years ago. The ACLU got involved and threatened legal action. The school board refused to accept the "donated plaques". Since this is a really conservative area and "In God we Trust" is the official state motto, the schools compromised by agreeing to post one plaque somewhere in each school. Rumor has it that my son's school put it in the teacher's lounge :).

[iam]

19. Trusting god

is utterly meaningless. It's only possible value lies in the imagination of the truster. We cannot make progress in reality if we live in the make-believe.

[Ruffhowse]

20. The trouble with this is that it is just the first step towards more overt

Christian indoctrination displays in our public schools. Let's face it, the Christo/Fascists won't stop until they feel every child in this country is brainwashed with their screwed up version of Christianity. Once they have this passed, the next thing they ask for (probably displaying the ten commandments) they will expect to be justified by the excuse that "well, you let us display the In God We Trust thing, this is only a little more religious". Fanatics never rest.

[leftofcool]

21. In Allah we trust....................

In Zeus we trust..........Mars, Aeries, Aphodite, Pan, Hermes, Hera, Hecate, Arianhod, Blue Ju Ju, The Great Pumpkin........why does it always have to be the white male Christian God?

Left of Cool

[VegasWolf]

36. "In imaginary beings we trust" n/t

[Sabriel]

24. I'll ask my education students what they think

Judging by their reaction to including LGBT issues in the curriculum, I'm going to assume they'll be all in favor of this bill. Remind me not to let them ever teach one of MY children. When did future teachers turn soooooo conservative? I've noticed an incredible shift just in the last two years. Scary, to put it mildly.

[Bill McBlueState]

28. I don't want to sound like I'm jumping to conclusions....

But many of the education majors I knew in college were in that field not because they wanted to teach children to think critically (which is one of the best things any teacher can do) but instead because they thought it would be easy to be a teacher. And they would vaguely say, "I like kids."

Maybe many of your students are conservative because they're in college and studying education for the wrong reasons -- they're not really devoted to the educational process at all.

I suspect your worst, least-motivated students are also the most conservative?

[Sabriel]

37. Our survey says.....

After today's informal discussion regarding this issue, the students were fairly split as to whether it was objectionable or not a big deal. As one person said, "It's on the money anyway. I don't care if it's on my wall."

Well, as an atheist and parent, I can say that I sure as hell DO care if it's there! And I hope my children never get that person for a teacher.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

25. I have a better idea.

Let's just hang a giant reproduction of a penny in all of those places. It's got the motto right on it, and also a handy non-motto area upon which can be scrawled "This is how much the government wants to spend on your education."

[Nashyra]

27. In God we Trust?

Is completely different that the RW fundie born again Christian, it is the fact they want to weasel in with "God" and then make a RIGHT turn towards fundamentalism. Many people of different faiths believe in a "God" they have different names for him/her/it, the RW wants to use the God thing to further their agenda, it has nothing to do with this country being founded on "Chrisitian Principles"

[Patiod]

29. They tried to force a flag into every public AND PRIVATE school

classroom as well. You can imagine how well that went over in the land of Amish, Quaker and Mennonite, all of whom fled here to get away from militarism in their home countries, and none of whom would allow a salute to the flag under any circumstances in their schools.

The sponsor(s) backed off, and came back with the same bill, only focused on public schools.

I agree with one of the first posters --- Dems should focus on what a fecking waste of time this is. Our public transit system is falling apart, people are shooting each other to death in the state's largest city at a jaw-dropping rate, and we need a "motto display act"?

[Mari333]

30. Of course, that excludes atheist students,

students who believe in more then one god, or believe in a goddess..
One lawsuit filed against this and whap! its history. what a waste of taxpayers time and money.

[et in Arcadia ego...]

33. How about: E Pluribus Deities Eat Sh*ticus?

;)

[reprobate]

34. Big question: Which God? Mine or theirs?To a solipsist it matters

[Occulus]

35. forgive me if I'm wrong here but

doesn't the phrase "an historical motto that harmlessly brings a little bit of God into schools" show everyone exactly what they're trying to do?

From now on I'd like to see the news reflect the honest truth: the above should read "an historical motto that harmlessly brings a little bit of the Christian God into schools."

I have a theory: The entirety of the 'establishment' of the Christian faith- and by this I mean the heirarchy- has been secretly pissed off at the USA since its founding for the precise reason that they are forbidden by law from being the State Faith as well as that the State must place other religions upon equal footing with theirs; as in, one cannot be convicted of a crime simply because it is "unchristian".

Think about what the religion calls upon people to do. Not that that in itself is a bad thing, but... some Christians might well see the entire US governmental system as an affront to their personal exercise of the faith. Witness the Dominionist/Christian Reconstructionist crowd for an example of this.

Those are the dangerous "Christians"; they are traitors. Make no mistake... I use this word in its technical form. By the definition of the word, Dommies and Recons are traitors.

Let's all say it one more time so the point is perfectly clear: by the technical definition of the word, the Dominionists and Christian Reconstructionists are traitors.

[Zhade]

38. Unconstitutional.

NT!

[mutus_frutex]

43. I have what I think is an important question:

At least it's important in my situation:

I'm a foreigner (legal, non-resident). I have a daughter, she was born here so she is a US citizen (she also has my citizenship automatically).

Now, I'm an atheist and I wouldn't put up with this if it came to be in my daughter's class. I would fight it. Now, my question is, what is my legal standing considering I'm not a US citizen?

I'll be glad to hear any comments..

Thanks in advance..

[onager]

44. Well, mutus, according to Poopy Bush...

I shouldn't be a citizen because I'm an atheist. And I'm a native-born Marine Corps veteran with ancestors who fought in the American Revolution.

Sorry, I don't have any legal help for you.

I did want to post Tom Jefferson's response when the Buybull-thumpers of his era pissed him off. This is STILL a great rant!

"You judge truly that I am not afraid of the priests. They have tried upon me all their various batteries, of pious whining, hypocritical canting, lying & slandering, without being able to give me one moment of pain.

I have contemplated their order from the Magi of the East to the Saints of the West, and I have found no difference of character, but of more or less caution, in proportion to their information or ignorance of those on whom their interested duperies were to be played off.

Their sway in New England is indeed formidable. No mind beyond mediocrity dares there to develop itself."

(Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, January 10, 1816)

[mutus_frutex]

48. Your post brought to my mind another question:

If I ever decide to become a citizen, would I be required to say the "so help me god" part of the oath of allegiance? Could I avoid the service in the military part? (I'm a conscientious objector).

I doubt it..

On the other hand, after living in this country for 10 years I WANT TO VOTE so badly...

Cheers.

[AuntiBush]

45. They're DETERMINED to FORCE their Beliefs on ALL OF US!

Been watching them (w/puke bag nearby) on C-Span today. They are determined to re-create a "New Constitution," while they finish off using the old one, to reclaim (they're words - like Warriors/Crusaders) America as they're own.

The rest of us are considered religious collateral crap.

Start in schools, then what's the next step? How about little Jewish and Muslim children? Or Chinese & Japanese kids?? No, they don't care about them, only themselves and shoving their way down the rest of our throats.

It's bad. If it continues, I'm spending my final days in another country. Seriously!

[Kber]

50. Cripes

I consider myself somewhat religious and I send my son to Sunday school, but I REALLY REALLY REALLY don't want this message in the public schools. Teaching him about God, morality, and ethics is MY responsibility, not anyone else's.

Frankly, the way main stream religion seems to be taught in the "mega churches" and some of the media enabled ministries is often pretty antithical to the values we are working to instill in our family (We embrace the "homosexual agenda" of love, tolerance, justice and mercy ;)).

[One_Life_To_Give]

52. Add, "All others Pay Cash"

"In God we Trust"
"All others Pay Cash"

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BiggJawn]

55. And who will PAY for those innocent little signs?

Is PA rolling in dough enough that their school systems can afford this?

"This is a harmless law"

Bullshit. You can ignore it if you want, but I consider grandstanding crap like this to be a "Nose through the tent flap" move on the part of the Dominionists.

BTW, welcome to DU, jump in and mix it up for a spell.

[BiggJawn]

54. Is Pennsylvania competing with Indiana?

For the honour of having the "World's WORST State Legislature"?

"It sounded right to me," said Rep. Bob Bastian, R-Somerset, recalling the first time the bill crossed his desk. Bastian is one of the bill's sponsors. "We're a country that was formed by Christian-thinking people, and we need to continue to have our trust in God."

Oh, Mr. Bastian...When was the last time you read anything about our founding fathers? I seem to recall that most of them were Deists, what YOU would probably recognize today as being Unitarian-ish, and a few of them were outright HOSTILE to christianity.

But we can excuse you your ignorance, since it seems to me that State Legislatures in PA have the same criteria for office as in IN, to whit:
Lots of cash, ownership of the biggest business or farm in the district, no advanced Degrees, especially in Law, and a burning desire only for the limelight and to FUCK with people....