Schiavo Kin: Parents Not Wanted at Burial

[kskiska]

LEVITTOWN, Pa. (AP) - Terri Schiavo's ashes will be buried in an undisclosed location near Philadelphia so that her immediate family doesn't show up and turn the burial into a media spectacle, a member of the Schiavo family said Thursday.

``If Mike knew they would come in peace, he would have no problem with it,'' Scott Schiavo, Michael Schiavo's brother, said during an interview at his home.

After an autopsy, Michael Schiavo plans to have his wife's body cremated and her ashes brought to Pennsylvania, where she grew up. Scott Schiavo said the ashes would be buried in a plot left by an aunt and uncle, but the family does not plan on providing the specficic location for the burial - underscoring the bitterness of the dispute.

(snip)

Neither Terri Schiavo's parents nor her siblings addressed the issue of her burial in their remarks to reporters in Florida on Thursday. A spiritual adviser to her parents, Paul O'Donnell, said they plan to hold a Roman Catholic Mass without her body sometime next week.

more…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-4905441,00.html

[Sparkle]

1. Round Two....

[Fenris]

2. Gee, I wish *I* had a spiritual adviser.

:eyes:

[flamingyouth]

3. You have me, my child

I even give you my discounted rate.

[Fenris]

5. Believing in God would probably be a prerequisite.

I'm disqualified.;)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

54. I'm available

I think everyone should have a lawyer who's also a spiritual advisor.

Scary, isn't it?

[DELUSIONAL]

69. do the "spirits" come in a bottle???

Are lawyer/client communications still private? If so then perhaps only a lawyer can be a spiritual adviser -- regardless of one's religious belief's or lack there of.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

72. Scarier, even..

In the state where my original license to practice was issued, I am authorized to perform marriages by virtue of being a member of that Bar.

Live in fear, people ................

And, yes, they're still private unless you're an illegal detainee, accused of being a terrorist without any due process, in one of nice little concentration camps provided by Ratface Who Squats Illegally In The White House. Then, you're screwed.

But, for you, DELUSIONAL, I can keep any and all secrets, and I can assure you of my constantly sanctified state, since I am in eternal communication with The Higher Lawyer.

[DELUSIONAL]

82. Oh wow -- perform marriages???

and officiate at funerals? Who could have guessed that lawyers could be a full service occupation??

[NVMojo]

128. The South Park kids are pretty good spiritual advisors in reality therapy!

[Fenris]

7. I was so excited about this I posted twice!

[Catch22Dem]

6. I'd tell him to...

nevermind, I don't wanna start shit. Well, I do, but I won't :evilgrin:

[Pirate Smile]

4. They can have their own memorial.

[ronnykmarshall]

13. They are and guess who's gonna run it?

Randall Terry! You know it's gonna be a media event broadcast live!!

[ebayfool]

182. That's probably another reason MS doesn't want them there ...

he hasn't seemed to like performing in a circus. He has to know that they would turn any service that has into another traveling road show. Good for him!

on edit:
got to get new glasses - that poor spelling CAN'T be mine!

[Sub Atomic]

8. I'm going to burn in hell

but I found this article funny.

I applaud Michael for his reaction to Terri's parents.






OK, go ahead and flame away.

[Scairp]

9. No flaming

Just disagree that her parents, regardless of what Schiavo believes "might" happen, should be excluded from their own daughter's funeral and burial service. That just isn't decent, no matter how they have behaved in the past couple of weeks. They're HER PARENTS for Christ's sake! As a parent, I cannot imagine being banned from attending my child's final journey, nor having the place where they rest a secret. This is wrong, and he should take it back.

[HockeyMom]

10. I wish

Michael Schiavo would sue those Schindlers for defamation of character for everything they have. I find those people DESPICABLE for what they did to their daughter.

[booksenkatz]

22. Everything I've learned about the Schindlers over the last few weeks

has made me understand WHY Michael has fought for Terri all these years. A weaker man would've given up, divorced her, taken the millions and run. But he knew what would happen if he relinquished his wife to her controlling family, and I commend him for putting himself at risk for the rest of his life on earth just so he could do right by Terri.

[Bo]

172. schindlers=foxnews scum

[tkmorris]

11. I think you're missing it

The parents ARE welcome, it's their entourage that is not. If the parents really want to be there I'm sure they could be. They just need reassure Michael Schiavo satisfactorily that they will leave the Ringling Bros back in Florida.

[Karenina]

14. I do hope he will have some of her ashes

put in a most wonderful urn and give them to her parents for them to do with what they will, over there with their deep pocket benefactors, away from him and his family. However, if he'd rather not I would find no fault with him.

[Horse with no Name]

25. They would sell them on EBAY. eom

[Window]

32. Oooooooooh!

That's bad. LOL!

[Karenina]

44. Really, LET THEM DO IT!

[LeftyMom]

46. Dividing ashes is against Catholic teachings nt

[DulceDecorum]

66. Where did you get that?

If memory serves,
those Knight Templar types used to get boiled up in a great big cauldron when they died and then they would chuck the soup out, put the skull and crossbones and such-like in a small box and ship the remains back to Europe.

[LeftyMom]

77. Here's what I've read

What is final disposition and memorialization you might also ask? The cremated remains(cremains) are always to be treated with dignity and respect and placed in a container that will help to provide such dignity and respect. Once burial rites are held, cremated remains are to be brought to the cemetery for final burial or entombment. Scattering cremated remains(an irreversible process) or permanently keeping them in the home of a relative or friend is not in harmony with the reverence that the Church requires of these remains. Cremation itself is not a final means of disposition as it applies to our Catholic faith.

http://catholiccemeteriesofsa.org/tcpaper/100998cremation.htm

The main document establishing this teaching is Reflections on the Body, Cremation, and Catholic Funeral Rites, unfortunately not online as far as I can tell but availible here http://www.usccb.org/publishing/liturgy/index.shtml and widely quoted if you google the name.

Practicing Catholics plese jump in if you have better info, I'm rather rusty.

[dflprincess]

80. You are correct

I'm no longer a practicing Catholic, but when a friend's dad died, the family checked with their priest about cremation and about scattering some of the ashes at a spot that had been special to their dad. He said cremation was acceptable, but that all the remains would have to be buried in one spot with the same reverence that would be be given a body.

[barb162]

108. is it okay for a relative to keep the ashes till they die and then have

the ashes buried in their own casket. This is what a cousin of mine is doing with her husband's ashes.

[DulceDecorum]

88. Thanks

I am not up on my Catechism.

Yes, the act of cremation is now permitted by the Church, but allow me to explain. With cremation, it is strongly preferred that the body of the deceased be present for funeral rites since its physical presence reflects the values affirmed in these rites. Cremated remains, also referred to as cremains, but never ashes, may also be present in church for the Mass of Christian burial, provided that the motives for cremation are not contrary to Church teaching. (A brief discussion with your pastor will clarify what is considered contrary to church teaching.) The priest or liturgical assistant arranging the Mass must be informed of the family's request to allow the cremated remains to be present at the mass. I am sure the priest would also welcome the information in order to prepare for preaching at the mass. Typically though, having cremated remains present for the Mass of Christian Burial is an exception to be made on and individual basis and is not considered the norm.
http://catholiccemeteriesofsa.org/tcpaper/100998cremation.htm

[Horse with no Name]

148. I need to tell my Aunt Barbara this

My Uncle Joe is still sitting on the mantle.

[LeftyMom]

157. Are we related?

I have an Aunt Barbara and a late Uncle Joe, too. Wierd.

[Horse with no Name]

175. Tis possible.

I come from an extremely large family.
My Aunt Barbara and Uncle Joe were in Phoenix.
Has your Uncle Joe been on the mantle for about 15 years under the stuffed deer head that they dressed up as Rudolph every year?

[LeftyMom]

176. Timetable's about right

Joe died young fifteen years ago but he passed in Los Angeles and my Aunt Barbara lives in the Bay Area.

Guess we aren't related after all. ;)

[MileHiStealth]

79. What a waste of soup ! N/T

[DulceDecorum]

85. Shhh

You don't want to find yourself in hot water.

[flyarm]

84. not so today...

a dear friend of my husband and mine died in sept ..and he was from albany and his wife and children in fla...and he worked in toronto as a sort of celebrity...his ashes were going to be spread by his children in albany , toronto and florida...and it is sanctioned by the catholic church..so what you are saying may have been ...but is no longer the rule..

also my father in law died one year ago , and he was cremated and his ashes were spread in northern calif in the mountains and over the ocean in san fran area...so what you are saying is not so!!

fly

[rainbow4321]

92. Nooooo...cuz then we will have:

Them hugging the urn and sobbing into the cameras for whichever morning news show anchor out-whores the rest..you know it is coming. First it will be "their FIRST interview", then their "FIRST primetime taped interview" for the whole month of May sweeps, then their "first LIVE Primetime interview"......


AAARRGGHHHH...make it STOP..pllleeeaaaasssse!

:banghead: :banghead: :puke: :grr:

[Auntie Bush]

208. Then they will bury her and thousands of Fundies will make a

shrine and come weeping and wailing towing TV cameras behind them mounted on a cross on wheels. They'll have political fights on her grave while publicly defacing Michael. I wouldn't blame him for not wanting to tell them where she was buried. I personally think he should dispense her ashes to the winds.

[anitar1]

115. They travel with heavy baggage.

I do not blame Michael in the least for wnating some dignty surronding her burial. Her parents and their baggage have used her as a religios political football, IMHO. It would not be private if they were allowed there. They seemed to have no respect for the hospice and sold themselves to those who wanted to use Terri for their own agendas. I have not pity for the parents. Just because you give birth to a child , does not make you a saint.

[Bunny]

12. I don't blame him one bit.

From the way they sold Terri's image for money, and degraded her in her final weeks, how do you suppose they'd act with her gravesite?

You don't think they'd turn it into a shrine, sell souvenirs, maybe bits of dirt from the gravesite itself? Of course they would - the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Based on their past behavior, Michael has every right to preserve the dignity of her final resting place. Her parents cannot be trusted to do the same.

[buzzard]

18. I'm just waiting to see when they sign a book deal.n/t

[Bunny]

20. Yep, you know it's coming.

They'll be on Oprah, too. Larry King as well.

[VegasWolf]

24. Made for TV movie "based on true events." n/t

[Heddi]

62. Heh. Who Plays Terri in the movie?

Jill St. John?
Suzanne Sommers?
Joyce DeWitt
Eve Plumb
Loretta Young?
Deirdre Hall?


What other washed-up TeeVee Movie Hasbeen Starlet is left?

Who plays Michael Schiavo?

I can't think of any hack stars for those things...maybe the guy that played Charles Manson in "Helter Skelter"...give him a 6-o'clock shadow, beer-breath, bruised knuckles from knocking about his beautiful wife.

I say that Mary Tyler Moore plays Terri's Mom, and William Shatner as the father.

Throw in a "Cousin Oliver" and a precocious dog named "Fluffer" and hey! You got a sit-com right there!!!

Why, I think I shall head to Hollywood now and pitch my emmy-winning show...

what shall I call it???

"Feeding Tube Blues"
no..
"My Mother The Crab"
no...
"Leave it to PVS"
???

[VegasWolf]

93. LOL. I would go with Brad Pitt and Salma Hayak or Paris Hilton. n/t

[Heddi]

97. Paris Hilton as Terri's Mom

George Clooney as Friar Tuck

[VegasWolf]

101. Yes, and Martin Short as the Juggler. n/t

[Heddi]

102. :snort: I wanna see a Terri Video Game

in the same vein as Legend of Zelda....nice MIDI music, blocky graphics, and Kewl things that throw boomerangs at 'cha.

aaaaaa

[VegasWolf]

105. Like bedpans? n/t

[Heddi]

107. No....that's too obvious

Feeding-tube lasso's. That's so obvious that it's almost unobvious.

Can I congratulate you for single-handedly assising me in assuring, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that I am going to roast in hell for eternity? I think the Black Lesbian Socialist Zombie is the best, though.



aaaaaggggguuuuuhhhhhhh

[VegasWolf]

110. Honey,

you can do anything you want with me.

[Heddi]

111. can we roast in the eternal flames of hell?

because that's exactly what I'm gonna be doin' after this Terri Schiavo shit....

' "We are the dead," he said.

"We are the dead," echoed Julia dutifully.

"You are the dead," said an iron voice behind them.'

[VegasWolf]

112. Don't worry. There is no hell. It's just a

story made up to keep the sheep in line. If there really
were a hell, I'd be struck dead while i sit here typi

[OldLeftieLawyer]

200. :::::: wild applause ::::::::::::::

Art.

Pure art.

<curtsey>

[VegasWolf]

114. Oh! and Heddi, be careful, I heard that the Schindler's are keeping a List

[tblue37]

164. Um, isn't that Santa CLaus?

[Patchuli]

122. Sorry, but that was

in really poor taste. Could we give this poor lady a little respect,
especially since her own family wouldn't? I'm just as tired of the circus as the rest of you, but that's just not nice.

[Heddi]

124. whatever

I really don't care if you find it in bad taste. I find this whole fucking THING in bad taste. It's a fucking farce--the whole thing. There is NO reason in the world I should have ever heard of Terri Schiavo EVER in my life.

But I have.

And I have a right to react to that however I please.

And just playing Devil's Advocate for a bit here--why in any way should I show respect for someone that I don't know at all? I mean, I guess I value her as a fellow human being...but I'm not greiving over her death. People die every day---hospitals are full of dead and dying people---it's a fact of life (death, that is).

I don't wish for anyone to suffer, I don't wish for anyone to fall ill or to die. However, I can't take any more Terri Schiavo. I'ts on the TV. It's on the radio. It's in newspapers and the internet and in conversations around me.

I refuse to PRETEND to act mournful or sorrowful or sad or whatever other adjective to please other people. I really don't give two shits about Terri Schiavo. I think what has been done to her is a travesty, and no one, no matter who they are, should have to endure what she and her family have gone through. I don't agree with her parents and think they used her and her disability as a tool to further a right wing agenda. I think her husband was doing what anyone would be expected to do--stand up for the spouse's rights. I guess I have strong feelings about her CASE, but as a person, well, she's just another person.

I can only take so much "the nation is mourning, tonight" bullshit before I fucking break. I don't find this woman's passing in any way to have affected my life. If that makes me a heartless soul, so be it. She's not my mother, or my friend, or even a casual aquaintance. I only know of her based on the media circus that surrounded her. I wish I'd never been exposed to her. My life is no richer having heard her story, or being aware of her death. Nor is it more empty either.

She was a person that died. No more, no less. And I have no more obligation to be 'respectful' to her than I have an obligation to be 'respectful' to any other random, anonymous stranger that dies during every second of the day.

[Patchuli]

137. I agree with much of what you say

but not all. The video thing was perhaps intended to be funny but
fell flat. And that's just my own "reaction."

[Chimpeach]

151. Heddi...

Then why are you even posting on this thread?

Just a question.

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ronnykmarshall]

15. Well I agree to a point.

Unless the Schiavo's ARGEE to NO media, no "advisors" or no spokespersons, I say Michael's correct.

The parents have feed this media circus with glee for the past months. What's to say they won't turn this into a media circus as well?

[brook]

26. no flame, either...

though I disagree with you. The Schindlers have been behaving badly for years - not just "the past couple of weeks."

They have allowed Michael to be maligned as a 'murderer'and more;they stood by while fanatics lied about Terri's 'awareness' and prognosis; they encouraged other fanatics in the circus which made the 'dying' of others at the hospice a living hell.They have lied about the tenets of the Church (re matters of death, sacraments, etc.) in order to paint themselves as 'holy' and 'caring' against a 'heathen' son-in-law. They have been shameless in their 'ungodliness'.

If I were in Michael's position, I would take the same steps to keep the Schindler family away. I have no doubt that they would turn any ceremony into another macabre circus - continuing to dishonor the daughter they claim to love so much. That family is in deep need of psychotheraphy - have been for a long time. They need to stop looking at the 'red light' on the camera and search their own hearts.

[stevedeshazer]

30. I wanna ask you something

If this had happened to YOUR spouse, and your in-laws had turned your spouses illness and death into a NATIONAL CIRCUS complete with JUGGLERS for JESUS, selling their mailing list for PROFIT, and their 'spiritual advisor' went on national television within ONE HOUR after her death and accused YOU of "heartless cruelty", what would you do?

WWSD?

[merci_me]

38. I disagree with you

The Schindler's chose to make this into a media circus and they travel with an entire freaky entourage.

They showed no interest in having that entourage move away for the area of the hospice, thereby showing no compassion for other families who were with their loved ones during their final days.

They are friggin selling videos of Terri for $100 donation!!! There isn't a camera that they won't posture for. Let them have their own funeral "event" and let the friars sell tax deductible tickets. Hell, Fox did an OJ "follow that van" to the autopsy location. They'll probably have helicopters all over the burial site anyway. The parents have only themselves to blame.

[Tansy_Gold]

43. the brother said they could come, but not their circus

All the Schindlers would have to do is say, "Michael, we just want to say good-bye to Terri. It will be just us and her siblings. Can we come?" And I'll bet he would say, "Okay."

But that isn't what they want, and it isn't what their "spiritual advisers" would agree to.

I've gone beyond civility.


Fuck 'em.

[Carni]

47. I don't necessarily think what he's doing is great - BUT

Given the fact that I have couple of sister in laws from hell I can sort of understand.

[movonne]

53. But then it would be turned into a media event...and people

trapping all over her grave... I don't think you would want that for your child....

[OldLeftieLawyer]

55. You reap what you sow

Those "parents" acted badly for years, and the circus they made of their daughter's final days should ensure their condemnation to the worst ring in Hell.

There is no trust. Mr. Schiavo cannot trust them, so why should he include them? They've dishonored, slandered, libeled, vilified, and lied about him for years, and now he is able to take care of his wife's remains as he wishes.

That's called 'doing the right thing with integrity," something those disgraceful Schindlers don't understand.

[laylah]

76. Should they agree

to behave civilly and not create a media/political/bullshit circus, I would agree with you 100 gazillion %; HOWEVER, we all know that wouldn't happen. Every freak and their brother, congresscritter, "spiritual advisor", etc, would show up for the "performance". For that reason, I agree with Michael. Keep the freak show away.

Jenn

[calimary]

181. I agree with Michael, too. Because the fact is, the Schindlers CANNOT

be trusted to keep this a private gathering. Wherever they go, you can bet your life savings that Randall Terry and the rest of the dog and pony show will be surgically attached and looking for every camera and microphone within a 20-mile radius. They would indeed turn it into a perversion, with all the nutcases and the people with the red tape over their mouths and the signs and the blood and the nastiness and the public flaggelation and all the other pathetic, disgraceful displays. Not to mention the disgraceful display they made of Terri during her decline, with those horrendous and embarrassing video clips all over everywhere. Especially considering she was described as a shy young woman, very self-conscious about her appearance, which anyone with any weight issues can be (I know that one personally). If they really loved her and cared how she felt and were so damned sure that she still had feelings and consciousness, they would not have made a circus freak out of her. They turned her into a frickin' bearded lady in a nauseating attempt to get their way. Control-freaks gone mad. Some friends of ours just got back from Spain and said the Schiavo miasma was all over THEIR TVs, last week, too. Dear GOD!

I'm squarely behind Michael Schiavo. If it were me, I'd do the exact same thing.

[anarchy1999]

119. Couldn't some terms be worked out, umm, like no media?

Meet us at this location, no helicopters, no lawyers, just the two of you, along with, you must both sign this agreement that her place of rest remains undisclosed or face penalties for failure to uphold said contract.

Terms met, bereaved mother and father of Terri attend funeral and where rests remains with them alone.

[gtar100]

133. Dream on....

How many times does he need to be stabbed in the back by those two snakes who's only connection to a need for respect in this situation is their biological parenthhood.

[LiberalFighter]

177. Problem is that the location of the cemetery will be private...

for only a few days. A month at best.

[Maat]

134. I agree, Scairp ...

with the exception of my mother (a.k.a. Pure Evil, La Bufadora)(just kidding - I guess).

[Eloriel]

169. Exactly right. I really want to see Schiavo supporters support THAT

there's no way.

His behavior, IMO, reveals his true nature which I've been suspect about from the get go. I don't care what they've done, or haven't done, they are her parents and he has no right (other than the LEGAL one, apparently) to refuse to let them have access to the funeral and her remains afterwards in PA.

Like I said, this shows his true colors in spades. For everyone who wants to call her parents "controlling" and otherwise horrible people, take a really good, long look at who your "hero" is. (This actualy isn't the ONLY clue to his true nature -- but it's a major one.)

[mondo joe]

198. If they had maintained a good, respectful relationship they wouldn't

be banned.

But they couldn't. So they are.

[proud2BlibKansan]

205. I believe it's not her parents who are not welcome

but the insane fan club they draw. If they could be trusted to come to the funeral without their entourage, I have a feeling Michael Schiavo would welcome their presence. But they have already shown time and time again that they can't be trusted to respect Terri's privacy.

[VegasWolf]

23. Hey, no flame from me. n/t

[burythehatchet]

156. I agree, good for him

the last thing I want to see at a relative's funeral is pervert randall terry

[booksenkatz]

16. Terri's family makes Marislesas look like a

blushing hothouse flower, don't they?

[DoNotRefill]

17. Seems pretty cold to me.....

I do wish we'd picked a more sympathetic poster child....

BTW, as a data point: Several close friends I know who voted against Bush think we're on the wrong side of this...We've won, Terri was allowed to die, but the damage caused by our position on this will not be felt for quite some time, I'm thinking....

[VegasWolf]

19. Huh? Have you been following. Jeebus. n/t

[DoNotRefill]

29. yeah, I've been following....

and I'm telling you that among the people I know who voted against Bush in 2004, more than half of them think we're wrong on this issue. Yeah, it's a small sample, but hey, it's a datapoint. The consensus I've been getting from them has generally been "would you want your husband to be able to order your death with the approval of the courts if you were going through a divorce?" These are people who are 100% pro-choice, 100% right to die.

Savor the moment, folks... because it's going to suck when the bill comes due....

[VegasWolf]

36. The polls don't support your datapoints. Most people believe the

parents should have stayed out. And these results are reflected
by the republicians i know.

[Minnesota_Lib]

201. One of the most hard core rightwingers I know...

was ranting at work about how the judicary made the right call in this case (going as far as to say any other decision would have made them the "activists" that they are now incorrectly being accused of)...and how the federal government had no freaking business getting involved in family matters.

I'm telling you this guy is so rightwing (and fundie to boot) that until now all I ever heard out of him was the "party" line. And other conservatives we work with agreed with him (and me).

If this guy can see through his ideological blinders and find his conservative roots (big gov out of our lives, for instance), it leads me to believe that only the most insane among us support the wacko Randall Terry faction in this case.

At least I hope so....

[donco6]

49. No one I know is favoring the Schindlers.

They all think they're nutcases.

[DoNotRefill]

113. the Schindlers? Nutcases?

Sure. That's not really debatable.

The people I've talked to about this generally seem to think (at least this is what they've conveyed to me) Congress fucked up by interjecting itself. Most of them think that the parents are nutcases. And most of them think the husband isn't the plaster saint many here make him out to be. They also don't know WHAT Terri's wishes actually were, and given the situation, they don't think the courts could know either. And the courts HAVE been known to make mistakes...ask anybody familiar with the number of people who were on Death Row and were later exonerated by DNA evidence.

[donco6]

116. Just tellin' ya, dude.

I don't know of anyone among my friends who thinks they're not a little whacked.

[DoNotRefill]

121. I don't know any either....

I'm not disagreeing with you that they're whacked. The point is that there's more than enough nuttiness going around on this thing.

I've got a young daughter. Looking at her now, if something terrible happened to her like happened in this case and her husband tried to cause her death and I didn't think that she actually had wanted to die, I'd be nuts too. I seriously doubt that I'd be as restrained as the Schindlers have been....yes, they've fought this in the courts, they've brought tons of publicity to it, they've ranted and raved on TV, but if it were me I think I'd probably take the husband "out" even though it meant a sure prison sentence, knowing that guardianship would chop to my wife and my baby would be saved. Would I be nuts when doing it? Probably, from a mental health standpoint, but not from a legal standpoint. Now if she had left a living will and specified what she wanted? Well, that's her choice, and I'd honor it.

You can't know what you'd do in such an extreme situation until you've actually had to do it. I hope I never have to face something like that. I'm sure my baby's future to-be-determined husband hopes I never have to face that situation, too. ;)

[Maat]

135. If this had been me ..

if my daughter had been found like that ... and I suspected foul play ... the issues with the husband likely wouldn't arise ... if you get my drift (he might not be available)(probably went on a long vacation .. for forever .. somewhere).

You're right ... I don't think that I would have been as rationally initially.

[daleo]

154. Well one way of interpreting this

Is that they don't really suspect foul play. If they made it all up, they would know.

[Maat]

183. So true.

Like I said .. if I felt my daughter had met with foul play ...

[mondo joe]

199. Funny you respect her choice in a living will but not her choice of a

guardian.

[DoNotRefill]

204. She didn't make a choice for guardian....

It was made FOR her as a matter of law because that's what the statute required.

[mondo joe]

210. She CERTAINLY did - she chose her husband, which grants

the status of guardian.

For the purposes of her legal case, however, he was not her guardian - the court was.

[DoNotRefill]

212. Ah, so when you marry somebody....

you're giving them the legal right to end your life? Women as property went out a long time ago....

[mondo joe]

214. What a bogus lie. Men AND women grant each other right of guardian

in marriage. Your "women as property" comment is dishonest and inaccurate.

Or do you prefer daughters as property?

Terri Schiavo and Michael Sciavo chose EACH OTHER as legal guardians.

But that's not even particularly relevent in this case because it was the court, not Michael Schiavo, who made the determination about her choice to not live on life support.

[DoNotRefill]

218. When I married....

I don't recall "right of guardianship" being mentioned in any way. They chose each other as spouses. That's not generally seen as an irrevocable pact, much less a right to execute the other party when they became an inconvenience.

[mondo joe]

Then you had no idea what you were doing, because marriage

grants the next of kin status (equivalent to guardian) to the spouse.

And it's not irrevocable - it's completely revocable through divorce.

But since you don't understand the legal pact you've made, I can see why you don't understand that Terri did either.

But once again you ignore the fact that Michael Schiavo did not decide to remove life support - the COURT acting as Terri's guardian did.

[DoNotRefill]

221. You're wrong.

Marriage does NOT grant guardian status. If you marry, you can designate anybody you want to be your guardian. It's only if you FAIL to designate your guardian or heirs that the statutory language comes into play. And the Court is NOT acting as guardian when they decide who acts as guardian....they are acting as an arbiter.

[mondo joe]

223. If you want to dicker about semantics, fine. Marriage grants next of kin

status which is functionally an equivalent of guardianship.

Durable power of attorney, can, however, be granted to another party besides the spouse.

And in THIS case the court DID act as guardian - in fact the court issued a statement describing why it did not elect to appoint a Guardian ad Litem. That reason was that because of the nature of this case, that function would be REDUNDANT to the COURT's function.

[DoNotRefill]

229. Marriage is not the functional equivalent of guardianship....

Guardianship doesn't attach until something else unrelated to marriage happens.

[mondo joe]

230. ...at which point next of kin status provides the same function

as guardianship.

And even if you want to dicker about THAT, men and women are EQUALLY next of kin in marriage. There is no argument for your inaccurate "owning women" BS.

[mondo joe]

129. Since the courts sometimes make mistakes how should these

disputes be settled?

[DoNotRefill]

141. People who don't want to be on long-term life support....

should make their wishes known through a living will or something similar beforehand. It doesn't need to be formal....simply writing out "I don't want to be kept on life support in case of becoming a long-term vegetable" should be sufficient, or a simple videotaped statement of intent would work.

My mother has had multiple strokes. She has made her wishes to not be on long-term life support known to all of us, and has a written living will. This entire thing with Terri came about because it basically devolved into a "he said, she said" situation. When there's a difference between what multiple involved parties think the person wanted and there's no real physical evidence of what the person actually wanted, I'd think that the courts should look at a "he said, she said" situation in the light most favorable to the person whose life is at stake. That does NOT mean "when in doubt, withdraw medical treatment necessary for life." We'd all be outraged if a court sentenced somebody to die in a criminal trial if there was ANY reasonable doubt, so why should this be different?

I support "death with dignity" 100%. If Terri had left a living will, I'd support removing the feeding tube, although I think a "hot shot" of morphine would have been much more humane. The problem is that in this case, there was no concrete physical evidence of what Terri actually wanted. Given the level of animosity evident from BOTH the bological family and her husband on this towards each other, I think that neither side is really credible, and therein lies the rub in my book.

[mondo joe]

145. That doesn't answer the question about what to do when there are

disputes.

Sometimes people don't leave living wills.

Even if they did, those can be challenged too.

Lastly, do you think all "involved parties" should have an equal say?

[DoNotRefill]

161. You try and appoint a guardian...

who indisputably has the best interests of the patient in mind. In situations like the Schaivo case, because there's so much rancor between the parents and husband, you'd appoint a disinterested third party guardian.

[mondo joe]

197. And the 3rd party, after 2 guardian ad litems was the court.

And the court, acting as the 3rd party, determined Terri's wishes were to not be kept alive on life support.

It's astonishing that you suggest simply because there is rancor between 2 sides that one can't be determined to be in the right.

[BronxBoy]

150. But do most people plan for these types of things?

I agree that having a written document is the crux of the problem here. But what happens when people don't do this and this situation occurs? In the Black community, the people I know barely plan for funeral arrangements in advance or wills let alone living wills. I've talked to some of my family members about making wills and such and I gotta be honest, it's like pulling teeth. So I actually think that Terri's situation in terms of not having a written directive is probably the norm in the country. What's not the norm is that this situation, which from many of the posts I've read here, has moved from a deeply personal decision decided by loving caregivers into one that has been exploited over and over and over by many people, including some people who when faced with the same situation, made the same decision as Micheal. You just have to shake your head.

If anything good is going to come out of this situation. It's maybe that people will take this opportunity to make sure that their wishes are known. I know my wife and I are doing so and maybe other people will as well.

As far as the parents being at the funeral, I don't know. I understand what you were saying about if Terri were your Daughter and you weren't sure that she said she wanted to die. But there is another situation that is equally valid. My wife and I love each other very much and she lives daily with a life threatening illness. If she were to end up in Terri's situation and she had made it clear to me that she didn't want live that way, I would take the course that Michael has. Only if my in-laws had behaved like that, I would have had no problem rounding up a few of the boys and beating the everloving shit out of them and their circus freaks.

People are quick to point that he has not a Saint. You're right he's not. He's a person with feelings and emotions. He's practically been called a murderer by some of the most powerful people in this country, including the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. And this was precipated and egged on by his in-laws. And now this man, whom all his critics said is not perfect and not saintly, is now supposed to put all the rancor behind him and reach out with humble and loving arms to his in-laws. I'd be hurt and wouldn't want anything to do with them either.

And lastly, maybe he should try to make amends and do the "Christian" thing. But it's funny that the very people who are saying the he's being a jerk by not wanting his in-laws, are not challenging the parents at all. I mean wouldn't it be "saintly" of them to reach out to Micheal and say " Terri's gone. We disagreed on what our course of action should have been. Bad things were said between us. But let's put that behind us and come together in the spirit of Terri's memory"

Think that's gonna happen. From what I've seen of them, they'd rather talk christian than be christian.

[DoNotRefill]

160. If there's no written document....

guardianship is a matter of statutory law. Sometimes, that leads to problems. For example, if a couple was going through a nasty separation in preparation for divorce, and one party became incapacitated, by law, the spouse is still the one who would become guardian. To me, that seems to be a situation fraught with peril.

[daleo]

155. Even the "written document" idea has been challenged.

I have seen two challenges to the written living will:

- someone in perfect health couldn't possibly know what their true feelings on the matter would be once they are incapacitated, so the living will is not really valid.

- a living will that says "do not using feeding tubes, ventilators, etc on me" amounts to a suicide note, so it is not really valid.

I don't know that anything could ever convince many of the people who have surrounded this case that it is morally permissible to withdraw medical attention, for any reason. We are dealing with true believers.

It is interesting that wills (disposition of property) are not challenged on this basis.

[DoNotRefill]

159. OK....

"- someone in perfect health couldn't possibly know what their true feelings on the matter would be once they are incapacitated, so the living will is not really valid."

With this situation, what you have to go on is the written wishes of the person "at risk". It's just like a will...they may have changed their mind at a later date, but if it hasn't been retracted in writing, their last written statement is what we've got to go on.

"- a living will that says "do not using feeding tubes, ventilators, etc on me" amounts to a suicide note, so it is not really valid."

Suicide is legal in most places. And there's an almost absolute right for an adult to refuse unwanted medical treatment.

I've never heard of a living will being thrown out on either of these legal theories. Challenged? Yes, but unsuccessfully.

[daleo]

165. I am not saying these have been grounds for reversal yet

These are just political arguments at this point, coming from the religious right. I don't know if they have ever been used in court. But I have seen both of these expressed in punditry over the last few weeks, especially the former.

If the right gets a lot of sway over appointing judges, these arguments might be used successfully, though.

[bettyellen]

168. so the courts should "err on the side of life" because a large percentage

of americans feel the opposite way? i'm sorry, this didn't register as "killing terri" for most americans..... that's just inflammatory fundie bullshit. most americans understand she died years ago.

[DoNotRefill]

180. Nah....it's just that before they condemn somebody to death.....

they ought to be sure of what they're doing.

[mondo joe]

185. How about before they condemn someone to life as a zombie?

Should they be SURE about that as well?

[DoNotRefill]

190. They didn't sentence her to be a zombie....

That happened on it's own. Now if the Courts tried to take a healthy person and sentenced them to medical treatment that would MAKE them a zombie, yeah, I'd have a problem with that...and so would the Bill of Rights, what with being a zombie being cruel and unusual punishment...

tell me....do you support the Death Penalty generally for convicts? If not, why not? After all, you seem to think the courts are pretty close to infallable...

[mondo joe]

196. Sure they did. They didn't sentence her to a heart attack and brain

damagem but what you're suggesting is that once that happens you are sentenced to be kept alive on life support like a zombie, regardless of your wishes UNLESS you put them in a legal document.

And I'm calling BS on that.

Your position must assert life support as the default preference, and removal of life support as the exception. And I'd like to know the rationale for that.

As to the courts, I never suggested courts are infallible - infallibility is not a standard courts can be measured by. The case can be legally sound or not - and this one is.

Since you find courts so unable to be trusted to decide conflicts, what do you propose we replace them with?

[DoNotRefill]

203. In that case, your position...

is that forcible euthanasia must be OK.

Which assumption is the safer assumption? That people want to live, or that people want to die? If the assumption is that people want to die, shouldn't we start euthanizing the severely mentally retarded? After all, they can't express their desires, so it's safe to assume that they'd PREFER to be dead, at least according to your argument.

[mondo joe]

211. Based on the response from the people of the United States the

answer is they wouldn't want to live THAT WAY.

And that says NOTHING about the mentally retarded who do not have PVS.

[DoNotRefill]

213. so how "functional" do you have to be....

before it's OK for the State to euthanize you without your consent? Use the same standard of consent that's used for rape, and see where that gets you....

[mondo joe]

215. But I have not advocated euthenizing anyone.

I simply advocate carrying out the wishes of the individual with regard to life support, which is neither euthenasia nor against the individual's consent.

[DoNotRefill]

216. There's a reason why hearsay is generally inadmissible in court...

and that's what you're advocating....the death penalty based upon hearsay.

[mondo joe]

217. Nice of you to acknowledge you don't know this testimony is

exempt from the hearsay rule, as are a couple dozen other types of testimony.

Keep going - I like to see you prove you don't know what you're talking about.

[DoNotRefill]

219. You need to carefully read what I wrote...

you know, that whole "generally inadmissable" bit. And admissable hearsay is still....wait for it.....HEARSAY.

Where'd you get your J.D. from again?

[mondo joe]

220. And admissable hearsay is standard court evidence.

You've watched too much Law & Order.

[DoNotRefill]

222. Admissable hearsay is still HEARSAY

which is seen as generally being unreliable. The fact that the courts admit some hearsay doesn't change that fact.

Where'd you get your J.D. from again?

[mondo joe]

224. And admissable HEARSAY is admissable precisely because it

is considered reliable.

That's what determines whether ot is admissable or not - the dividing line is types of hearsay deemed to be at least minimally reliable.

[DoNotRefill]

227. It's still hearsay...

"an out of court statement that goes to the truth of the matter."

Hearsay is notoriously unreliable. Even admissable hearsay.

[mondo joe]

225. Have a look at Webster's Legal Dictionary on Findlaw

hearsay rule:a rule barring the admission of hearsay as evidence

Note: The hearsay rule is stated in Rule 802 of the Federal Rules of Evidence. Hearsay is inadmissible as evidence because of the unavailability of cross-examination to test the accuracy of the statement. There are numerous exceptions to the rule, however, mainly for statements made under circumstances that assure reliability. Statements made spontaneously, for example, or as part of a business or medical record are inherently trustworthy and thus excepted from the rule. A statement need not be made orally for purposes of the hearsay rule. Written statements, gestures, and even motion pictures are included.

[DoNotRefill]

226. and from Black's (Pg. 722):

in part: "Evidence not proceeding from the personal knowledge, but from the mere repitition of what he heard others say. That which does not derive it's value soley from the credit of the witness, but rests mainly on the veracity and competency of other persons. The very nature of the evidence shows it's weakness, and, as such, hearsay evidence is generally inadmissable unless it falls within one of the many exceptions which provides for admissability."

Admissable hearsay is still hearsay. What's next? Justifiable homicide isn't homicide because it's justifiable?

[mondo joe]

228. Again, admissable evidence is admissable precisely because

it is perceived to be trustworthy. That's why this is one of the "many exceptions which provides for admissability."

Hearsay - the admissable sort - is the basis of MANY court decisions. And there's nothing wrong with ADMISSABLE hearsay - that's why it's admissable.

You don't need to like it or approve - it's how the law works and it's not about to change.

[bettyellen]

167. he didn't order her death.. there was no divorce going on.. quite the

contray, they were trying to start a family.
why didn't you try to correct your friends on these false assumtions.
more slander......

[LiberalFighter]

178. If there was a pending divorce...

the court would not have the same view.

[prolesunited]

28. We "won"

:wtf:

Michael Schiavo is a poster child for nothing. He's a man who lost his wife to an eating disorder who has been put through the wringer for nothing more than carrying out her wishes. He's neither a saint nor a sinner. Just a man who has spent 15 years waiting to bury his long-dead wife and to grieve.

I hope the court, the legislators and the churches don't decide to intervene and the media make your in-laws cause celebre if you are faced with similar circumstances.

[DoNotRefill]

31. So...

this wasn't a battle between the pro-lifers and the pro-choice people?

On an individual level, it wasn't. On a macro scale, it was, and the pro-choice side won. Didn't we?

Because if we didn't, we're still going to pay the price....

[gulfcoastliberal]

45. You obviously haven't been paying attention...

If "we" means the democrats, then please explain this statement from Minority leader Harry Reid (D-Nev):

Reid Statement on Terri Schiavo

Thursday, March 17, 2005

“I am pleased Senator Frist and I were able to pass the bill that protects the life of Terri Schiavo by allowing her parents to go to federal court.

If the House Republicans refuse to pass our bipartisan bill, they bear responsibility for the consequences.”

http://www.reid.senate.gov/record2.cfm?id=234101

So who the is we, anyway? The millions of married spouses who have certain civil rights granted by the legal definition of marriage? Maybe you'd like to sign over your wife's medical treatment decisions to her parents even if they wouldn't do as she wishes, but not everyone wants to do that.

[DELUSIONAL]

73. What this says is that Senator Reid -- DINO -- is an ass hole

and should be kicked OUT of the Democratic Party a.s.a.p.

And I've been right about the bastard since he was chosen as minority leader in the Senate.

[ElectroPrincess]

158. You got that right and we're NOT delusional !

Well, you are,:blush: but in screen name only. :spray:

I fully concur with your statements above.

[Carni]

51. What I found the saddest is seeing the pics of her before the heart attack

And then seeing the films her by blood family has been bandying around the world for the last however many years while she was in a VS.

I swear I would will myself to die (functioning brain or not) so that I could come back and haunt the people who exposed me like that!

That young girl didn't deserve the media circus and the disrespect foisted on her by her family and she wasn't even in a position to defend herself.

It just struck me as very sad today that her last conscious thought was probably what the hell is happening to me in 1990.

What the family did was extremely selfish and sickening IMO

[OldLeftieLawyer]

59. It was also illegal

There was a court order, requested by Mr. Schiavo, that no images, pictures, videos, etc., of his wife be made, and the parents went in there with a cameraman and filmed something like 4-1/2 hours of her in that pitiful state, and then had them edited down to just a few minutes, designed to make it look like she was listening and reacting.

They have no respect for anything or anyone.

After that, their visits were strictly monitored. They sold their daughter's image just to advance their own aggrandizement, and for that, I hope they pay, and pay dearly.

Hardly the act of loving parents, wouldn't you agree?

[Carni]

90. I would NEVER do that to any loved one

It is especially appalling since her whole situation apparently arose from her poor self image of herself in the first place.

I didn't know that her parents took it upon themselves (against a court order) to make those films.

That is just about as sickening and vile as it gets.

[anitar1]

118. Thank You, Leftie Lawyer. My sentiments, exactly. n/t

[Pachamama]

132. Anyone familiar w/ Bulimia, knows that those suffering w/ it have huge

issues with body image and there are ofcourse the greater underlying issues of what led to that (issues of control etc).

Having watched what Terri's parents have done over the last 15 years and especially the last two weeks in showing these video images of her "drooling" in the hospital are the last thing that this young woman prior to her heart attack would have ever, ever wanted in a million years shown of her to anyone, yet alone 24x7 on TV around the world. The refusal of her parents to give up has been seen by many as evidence to their parental "love" for their child, but I think that its much more evident of some major control issues with these people and it wouldn't surprise me in the least that it was many of those same things that were causes for her Bulimia and image issues....

Now in her death, I think they are just going to continue their "dysfunctional" dance....I don't think these people know the definition of being "loving parents"....

This situation has just been so disgusting and sad... :cry:

[calimary]

184. Yes, I'd agree. You do NOT exploit someone like that. You just don't.

If you really love them, you don't make a sideshow out of them just to win a point. You don't blow something up into a circus, calling in every looney and media whore in Christendom to hog the spotlight, and announce there will be no more interviews, only to turn directly around and plant yourself in front of more microphones and cameras, and hang around where you know they are and where you know they'll be looking to photograph and seek comment from you. You don't announce you will seek no further redress in the courts and then turn directly around and do that very thing, bringing the same demand again and again and again, over and over and over to the same courts that already have reviewed all the evidence (including all four-and-some hours of that videotape) and ruled against you. You don't whip people up into a frenzy and make inflamatory statements that were designed (and probably fed you, with coaching) to provoke. Further, you don't throw in wild and cruel accusations that your daughter may have been beaten or abused at the last moment, when that should have been on the record at the beginning of this.

Fifteen years ago, in 1990, there was PLENTY of sensitivity in society, and the media, in the courts, and in law enforcement, about spousal battery, and it would have been brought up. Evidence of it would have been detected when she was initially taken to the hospital or examined by paramedics. I was working at a radio station in 1978 in which I was assigned a week-long series on rape. I had to interview all kinds of people, from victims to rape crisis hotline people, counselors, therapists, and law enforcement. There was SUBSTANTIAL awareness of, and procedures and policies for, what you do with a female victim and how you handle her and what you look for when an attack or a suspected attack or suspected foul play may have occurred. The fact that the Schindlers and friends were throwing this in at the beyond-eleventh hour showed they were merely grasping at straws. It was ridiculous, offensive, and appalling.

Certainly Michael Schiavo's no saint. But he sure burned off a lot of purgatory time with what the Schindlers and their friends, Barnum and Bailey and Company, put him through.

[Catt03]

70. Me too

I cannot imagine being treated with such little respect and dignity....paraded in front of the world.

Sickening and disgusting.

[LiberalFighter]

179. That family wanted to have a last family photo with Terri

In the state Terri was in is sick.
If they wanted a last family photo when it was closer to the time of her early treatment then I would consider it appropriate.

I would want to remember a loved one at their best not their worst.

[xchrom]

33. poster child?!?!

hmmmm -- some one as abused as michael has been for these years probably isn't feeling like he's won anything -- other than the end to a very long nightmare.

tragedy doesn't happen only to likeable people.
and it's pretty poor reasoning to start with the charisma litmus tests to defend someone who has been at the bottom of the dog heap the way he has.

[DoNotRefill]

143. "the bottom of the dog heap"????

He's won over and over again in court. How, exactly, has he been "on the bottom of the dog heap"?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't his status as guardian come not from any written document left by Terri expressing her wishes, but rather because of the default presumption left in the statute that the spouse becomes guardian over the parents when the issue hasn't been addressed?

[sidpleasant]

146. Re: "How, exactly, has he been 'on the bottom of the dog heap'?"

Well, let's see. Mrs. Schiavo's parents and the cabal of right wing foundations and pressure groups funding them have spread numerous heinous lies about Mr. Schiavo. They claimed that he abused his wife, that he was responsible for her condition, that he could have saved her when she had the heart stoppage but didn't, even that he tried to strangle her. They've claimed that the case was all about his greed (even though the estrangement between him and the Schindlers began when Terri Schiavo's father demanded a cut of the malpractice settlment), ignoring the fact that he recently refused a bribe of $1,000,000 to give up his rights. He's needed full time protection because of constant death threats - don't forget that a right wing kook was arrested last week for offering a quarter - million dollars bounty for Mr. Schiavo's murder. He's probably going to need bodyguards for the rest of his life.

As for his status as guardian, a lawyer appearing on Al Franken's show Wednesday neatly explained it by noting that courts have always given preference to the spouse over the parents, recognizing that the marital relationship is different and more intimate than the parent - child relationship. You choose your spouse, you don't choose your parents.

[mondo joe]

152. Incorrect.

Michael asked the court to determine her wishes, which it did based on evidence.

Michael was appointed guardian.

And even if that weren't the case, the legal contract of marriage IS a written document.

Lastly - after years of fighting and being slandered I don't think Michael is exactly the TOP of the dog heap.

[DoNotRefill]

162. He was appointed guardian....

because of the statute naming spouses as the first people on the list to get guardianship.

somehow, I have trouble seeing somebody who won in court repeatedly and ended up having the final say of what happened to Terri as "losing"...

[mondo joe]

174. He was able to carry out her wishes, but at great expense to himself.

Clearly he was willing to do it - but the guy hasd his family threatened, was slandered and it's not as if his victory was a joyous thing.

[demgurl]

34. We've won?

That almost sounds like what Rush Windbag was saying on his program:

"Weelll , my friends, do you know what THEY want in all of this? They want to win, my friends, but they have no idea that they will loose in the end. They have no idea the consequences of their actions. This will cause such a backlash for them. The only reason they want Terri dead, my fuh-rends, is that they are so bitter over Bush loosing."

I know exactly that it sounds like El Drugoo himself because I heard him say it with my own voice. That big fat douchebag is so insulting. I am waiting to get raped and need an abortion and for it to be publicized so he says I am doing it just because I am so bitter that Bu$h won that I accidentally got pregnant just to throw an abortion in his face. The right wingers are so fucking insulting.

You know who won here? Terri. Her husband and two of her family members testified that she did not want to live this way and Terri finally won her fight after 15 years.

I feel nothing but admiration for her husband sticking up for what he knew she would have wanted.

I feel very sorry for her parents who I believe deep down knew she wanted to die. I have to think that they got carried away by the machine that is the GOP. Imagine having to sell their soul to do it. Imagine the first time they hear their own talking heads stating that MS cheated on his wife and silently knowing you told him he should do this and to please be happy. Imagine the little bit of their soul that died when someone came up with the idea to say MS had beaten Terri and caused this. They knew it was a lie considering they even housed poor MS for the first few years and I know I would never house someone who would beat my child.

No wonder they did not go to see their daughter in the last few days. Can you imagine telling all those lies about the biggest defender of your daughter and then sitting on the other side of the bed from him and having to possibly look him in the eyes? How embarrassing. How sad for them that they would feel the need to go along with such lies for the means to justify the ends.

No matter what the people think of their God, I believe he is a loving and caring one and I hope he forgives them for all of the harm they have caused. I hope they find him and repent. I hope that they will finally do some good in their daughter's name and in the name of God.

Who won? Terri won. I know, for myself, I only wanted the court to honor her wishes as I think that is important. It was never dems against pubes - not for me anyway. The first time I heard that was on Windbag's show and I was horrified. It was never the God loving against the Godless. The GOP political machine tried to put that out there to further their agenda. Sad really, especially when people bought into it.

I hope that all of the players in this game finally find peace but most of all Terri.

[iamjoy]

123. Nobody Won, DemGurl

Michael Schiavo didn't win. After everything he's been through to carry out what he believes were Terri's wishes, it seems odd to say he won.

Certainly the Schindlers didn't win.

The Republicans didn't win, but the Democrats didn't either. The Republicans looked hypocritcal and overreaching. The Democrats looked weak and unable to take a stand (this isn't completely true, but the "Liberal Media" has said it so much many people believe it).

The so-called Pro-Lifers showed just how fanatical they can be, but we can hardly say the Death With Dignity cause was advanced by this.

And Terri didn't really win either, because here was this woman who by all accounts was modest and shy and look at all the fuss about her, including those pictures of her being shown.

But if you must say who won, perhaps it is, well, US. Not Liberals, but all of us. More and more people have had conversations with their family about what they would want done in such a situation. Many have had living wills drawn. I have told my family that if there is ever dispute about my chances for recovery and "pulling the plug" or not - if they can not reach an amicable agreement amongst themselves...the last thing they should do is turn me into a political football and put pictures of me when I'm sick all over the news. Of course, if the government or hospital is saying to let me die and my family doesn't want it, they can fight it with everything they've got.

[demgurl]

171. iamjoy.....

I know, I just responding to the other post about us paying a price in the end for winning. Some of their friends must really be listening to the RW talking points because that is what they are putting out. They always have to make it out that it is us versus them and sadly they buy into it. I wish they would leave us alone but they need to have an enemy to draw them together I guess. All I hear the RW talk show hosts say is that we were foaming at the mouth 'to kill' TS. The only thing I was foaming at the mouth about was turning off the TV so I was not hounded by this private family matter. I know more than I ever wanted to about this stranger down in Florida. I know she was brain dead. I know THREE people testified to her wishes. I know that her parents said they did not care what her wishes were and that they would still want her to live.

I disagree with Rush Windbag and all of those who say 'we' won. OMG! Was this just a game to them to see who could loose and who could win? I think it is egotistical to be playing that sort of a game with someone's life and I think sooner or later someone will have to answer for that. To me this was not a game and I did not win. To me, this was a private family matter and what happened happened. It had nothing to do with my politics. It had nothing to do with my religious beliefs. It was something that happened and it is over. If people wish to believe it was about winning, I will not be a party to that. I refuse to be dragged into another fight to just further divide this country. I want my old country back and will not take part in this new one.

[anitar1]

117. Who Cares?

That is bizzare! We are "on the wrong side"? As if we should bow to those nutcases who were having a ball in front of the hospice?

[Bouncy Ball]

126. What ARE you talking about with that "we won" bullshit?

No one WON in this scenario. Where the hell are you getting that? This should have NEVER been political in the first place and most Democrats AGREE with that statement.

Michael Schiavo isn't the Democrat's poster child. Go get over yourself with that.

[PA Democrat]

166. I hear you Bouncy Ball. I wasn't aware that this tragedy was some sort of

contest or game where "we" (whoever that is) "won". My horror over this whole situation is how people have rushed to use this case to serve their own political agenda, and the way the media turned what should have been a PRIVATE nightmare into a disgusting media freak show.

And according to this ABC poll the majority of both Democrats and Republicans oppose federal involvement in the Schiavo case.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/PollVault/story?id=599622&page=2

[ebayfool]

186. This was one of those rare times (in my recent memory) that something

or someone actually reached across party lines to an agreement. Most of the repubs & dems that I know were appalled at the way this was politicized in Washington, as well as by the fundie frenzy down in FL. Truth be known, I think most of the repubs were embarrassed that their leaders in the WH & Congress were involved & making the outrageous statements that they did. The only people I've heard making the argument that Dems won & it will come back on them are the RW talking heads & politicians desperately trying to sway their base back into line! They are playing wrangler to herd the party faithfuls that strayed & actually thought for themselves, can't have that - it could lead to a habit!

[David Zephyr]

21. The religious right made funeral of President Clinton's mom into a circus

Let's not forget recent history here folks:

The "Reverend" Fred Phelps and other religious right wingers turned the sacred funeral of President Clinton's mom into a circus complete with their "signs" that said that his mother would be burning in hell.

And further, that was not the first time. When AIDS activist Randy Shilts passed away his funeral was also shockingly disrupted by these hatemongers professing to be Christians.

Certainly, Terri's parents have given Michael Schiavo every reason now on earth to suspect that just as they turned Terri's hospice into a crass media circus with Randall Terry, of all people, that they might very well do the same thing at her funeral.

May Terri rest in peace now. Michael's PRIVATE funeral for her is a first step now toward that end.

[NNguyenMD]

37. its the last chance Terri Schiavo has left for a moment of dignity and

respect.

I thought I had a low opinion of the MSM before, I can't even turn on my TV anymore.

[Malva Zebrina]

27. I am with MS on this one

the parents--there is no telling what they would do. Cameras, bowling pin jugglers, women lying on the ground imitating his wife's condition, bagpipe players, clowns and rabid hate mongers. Maybe even the appearance of Jesse Jackson!

I am with him on this one. It is the parents fault that they chose to employ and encourage a three ring circus and it should NOT be done again when her ashes are buried. It should be a dignified and somber ceremony and there is no way MS can trust that the parents will not make it into another media fiasco. They have proven their propensity to make it into an undignified, crass ceremony.

[Bunny]

57. Don't forget Jesus Christ on a Trailer Hitch!

Wouldn't be much of a funeral without him, would it?

[ronnykmarshall]

78. Don't forget the holy rolling former former "Hooters" gal!

[WinterStorm]

202. Priceless

No bra and filled with the holy spirit :rofl: She should have bought the XXXL sheer sweater at Walmart.

[Ronnie]

35. I don't blame him.

I wouldn't want those people anywhere near me.

[daleo]

39. I don't blame him.

But, it would be educational for the public to see what a three ring circus the religious right would make of the event. Nevertheless, I don't blame him for wanting to avoid this final indignity.

Anyone can have a memorial service - there is no need for a body to be in attendance - and I suspect there are some real performances in the works.

[all.of.me]

40. a year ago today, a close friend of mine was found dead

i was the contact person. i had to deal with calling the relatives and starting the arrangements, since everyone was from out of town.

it turned into a circus with the daughter abusing prescription drugs (to the point of being hospitalized for four days!) and the son being completely co-dependent (and these are grown-ups in their 40s!).

to make a long, nasty story short and sweet, i chose not to go to the funeral OR the service they had over the summer. i wanted NOTHING to do with these whacko people, since they tarnished the memory of one of my best friends with their antics. they also took away my grieving time, because all my energy was sucked out by their crap, which went as far as trying to sue me for placing my friend's dog with somebody that the family agreed to! it was that convoluted. for months.

the schiavo decision is the same flavor. we're just in opposite positions.

he has a right to deny the parents and be whacko-free.

[bluedog]

41. I don't blame him

I also read this......says it all........

Thank-You Terri


Thanks for educating people about the importance of having a living will.

Thank you for exposing the hypocrisy in this world.

Thank you for showing the world what heartless, political opportunist, immoral and selfish scumbags those who would try to use you for personal political gain are.

You have done more in dying than many, many who are alive and fully functioning have been able to do with massive funding and thousands of supporters.

I cannot recall in recent history another death that has had such a profound impact on the entire world. I know it was not your intent, but thank you for your immeasurable sacrifice, and Rest In Peace.

[DulceDecorum]

74. What entire world?

Indonesia has problems of its own
and Iraq says nothing that can be repeated in polite society.
The Afghans were not informed and those who were are still pissed off about those yellow bombs lying all over the place and India is very annoyed at the US sale of fighter jets to Pakistan.

However, if you referring to the "world" that plays in the World Series,
yeah, I guess that world cares about the disruption this has brought to their TV viewing habits. Not to worry, Kleenex and Lifetime will collaborate on an original movie, inspired by actual events: The Terri Schaivo Story, brought to you by the GOP-appointed judges who valued the Constitution over their own political party.

[Erika]

91. Excellent post

It is about quality of life, not just existence. She has also alerted us that this administration cares about thrusting it's religion and religious beliefs on us and violating the Constitution.

[Skittles]

42. it is so sad it has come to this

but I understand Mr. Schiavo's reasons completely

[gulfcoastliberal]

48. I don't blame him

NT

[donco6]

50. If the funeral is at all public . . .

. . . you know the Phelps clan will be there. Terri is burning in hell because she wasn't a whacko fundie Christian.

They hate Catholics almost as much as they hate gays.

[saigon68]

139. THIS PHELPS BUNCH ? THESE CHRISTIANS WHO LOVE?

[Catchawave]

147. ohhhh, feel the hate....in those photos, that is...

Have those idiots tried to figure out in their "creation" handbook, their GOD created homosexuals too AND in his image!

[brainshrub]

195. They have it wrong. God actually said he dates fags. (eom)

[koopie57]

52. I think it is best to keep the burial site a secret

cuz you know some nutcase will dig up or break into where ever the ashes are and show up on Hannity with a present for the Schindlers.

[Middle Finger Bush]

56. some of yalls responses are twisted

[Bunny]

58. So's yours. Y'all.

[Middle Finger Bush]

60. ok i'll bite

what are you talking about? just being stupid?

This woman just died today... the crass comments from some of yall are fuckin pathetic.

[Bunny]

64. Please. This is enlightening.

Tell me more. Exactly which ones are crass? Y'all.

[Heddi]

67. No, our comments aren't 'fuckin pathetic'. What is 'fuckin pathetic"

Is this woman's life AND death being thrust into our lives for the past....months? years?

What's pathetic is what should have been, and always remained a private family matter being turned into a media and judicial circus.

What's pathetic is her Parent's inability to deal with the reality and terminality of her situation. What's pathetic is THEIR pathetic ploys of completely clogging the court system for YEARS and YEARS and YEARS.

What's pathetic is politicians using this woman's life and death as nothing more than a football used to further their anti-choice, "Pro-Life" (anti-woman, anti-child) agenda.

What's pathetic is a family that has just lost their sister and daughter grandstanding in front of cameras and media when they should be greiving privately

What's pathetic is the family's mission to smear not only the husband of their daughter, but by proxy, their daughter herself. Not only have they outright called Michael Schiavo a murderer, but an adulterer, a wife beater, and a contributor to her condition.

What's pathetic is the constant blaring of the videos of their daughter in her most vunerable state--photos that were used SOLELY for their emotional impact. Photos that were outrageous and inflammatory. Photos that should have been of her during the height of her life instead of photos of her drooling in a hospital bed.

What's pathetic is the hundreds of protestors who have camped out in front of a Hospice facility, denying patients and family members alike the solice and tranqulity they so desperately need in their final hours, days, weeks of life. They have cause at least one woman to miss the death of her grandfather due to increased security. They parade outside shouting "MURDERER". THey block traffic. They play bagpipes at 5am. yeah. That's fucking pathetic.

What's pathetic is the Schindler's selling video's of Terri in her terminal state for $100 donations.

What's pathetic is the Schindler's selling the names and email addresses of supporters to a Marketing Group.

But our comments are 'fuckin pathetic'?

Fuck that. This whole fucking THING is pathetic

[ElectroPrincess]

89. You go Heddi !

What Heddi said. ;)

:yourock:

[VegasWolf]

96. Yeah! What Heddi said! n/t

[Heddi]

98. tut-tut

I am full of steam tonight!!! woot woot

[anarchy1999]

120. Well, I'd have to say maybe one of your best rants ever, Heddi!

Kudos, you said it all, short and sweet and not to terribly harsh.

Good job and thank you from the rest of us.

[Window]

127. ^5 Heidi

Right on.

[DawgHouse]

144. Good grief!

Is it true that they sold videos of Terri??????? Yep, pathetic!

[NVMojo]

130. I really could give a feck if they blow her ash into a pipeline somewhere

we have much more important things to be worried about in this country, really, than someone else's bad situation with their in-laws.

Let's talk about those people shot at the reservation last week by the young man. Just like Columbine but these kids are brown so we don't give a feck? Shame, shame, shame.

[koopie57]

61. what is a yall

and who twisted mine anyway!

thinking --- yall and some of yall .... you don't mean 'you all', jees I hope not, that would be just stupid talk

[Middle Finger Bush]

63. heh

forget it yall

back to it!

[koopie57]

65. don't you mean "back twit"

[VegasWolf]

99. Is "yall" plural or singular speech? Is a mullet hair style necessary to

say yall.

[Cornczech]

103. hey....

I just once again started to read and post here again....and I have to read (wel..guess I don't HAVE to do anything...) a bunch of people flame some guy for posting his honest opinion....and writing the word, "ya'll" in his post..I mean, com eon YA'LL....let's stick to the posts message and not flame some poor guy (or gal) for being from possibly the South (I'm from Texas and will NEVER use YOU ALL in place of ya'll...ever...and I am an educated, anti-hick person.......)

So...I would LIKE to post and continue to read other's posts here...but hate to see a person attacked for some thing so non-relivant...

now...am I gonna get flamed for being a poor speller and being too lazy to spell check?

my opinion, ya'll

by the way...the spell check may not work on this board...I KNOW I musta misspelled RELIVANT..relavant...relivent...damn....I must not be able to spell because I use the word ya'll..... (sarcasm)

[VegasWolf]

109. Well, for an obviously well educated individual like yourself a spell

checker should be simply academic.

[Malva Zebrina]

71. what is a yawl?

yawl ( P ) Pronunciation Key (yôl)
n.
A two-masted fore-and-aft-rigged sailing vessel similar to the ketch but having a smaller jigger- or mizzenmast stepped abaft the rudder. Also called dandy.
A ship's small boat, crewed by rowers.

[VegasWolf]

100. I think you misspelled. "Yall" is a southern euphemism for a group

of rednecks at the bar.

[koopie57]

104. how do they say it

after they get drunk? And actually it wasn't the 'yall' that got to me, but all the other crap he said along with it. I suspect there are many fine Southerners on this board who talk like that cuz that is how they talk in their neck of the woods. I'm from Minnesota and I've said 'Minnesooota' more than once.

[VegasWolf]

106. I know. I agree completely. I'm originally a Southern gentleman

myself. I had a feeling that this guy wasn't.

[DoNotRefill]

142. Just like "Utes" or "Yoots"

is Brooklyn-ese for two or more young people....

[Jilly Beans]

173. Give it a rest.

Y'all is a word that I, a PhD, use frequently in a colloquial way. Rip the guy's ideas, but not his usage of a word commonly used by many of us southerners at DU.

Maddy McCall.

[Name removed]

191. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jilly Beans]

192. If you are attacking people's intelligence based on the usage of...

the word "y'all," then I am demonstrating that the usage of said word is not related to one's intelligence level.

I'm a PhD, I use the word, y'all, AND I am perfectly capable of holding my own in an argument without resorting to stupid insults.

If you take this as me calling you stupid, well, you're right.

[Name removed]

194. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jilly Beans]

193. "Y'all" = "You All"

Doesn't take a PhD to figure that out.

[Spinoza]

68. Personally,

I think Michael Schiavo is a good man; perhaps a great man. It is so rare, and so refreshing, in today's circus 'freak' culture, where media 'pundits' of all political persuasions (the right is certainly worse) think they have the absolute right to portray and sum up, between commercials, anyones soul---to find someone who avoids the media because he CARES about Terri's (and his) privacy and dignity.

[American Tragedy]

163. I think Michael Schiavo's actions border on greatness.

I can't imagine enduring such a bitter, humiliating personal battle on my own for fifteen years. I think that I would literally die of the stress.

Practically speaking, it would have been quite easy for him to walk away. Yet he stuck through it, all on behalf of someone who could not even speak or form complete thoughts. Incredible.

[JerseygirlCT]

75. I wish

there was a way to allow them to be there, while preventing their accompaniment. If there were some way to insure that only the immediate families were allowed to be there (no "advisors" no politicians) then I think it would be a healing gesture, at least, to allow her parents this.

I think the poor people are nuts, literally. Out of their minds with grief and in need of serious help. I think they've been preyed on by a huge assortment of people eager to use them for their own ends. They really need help to learn how to put this behind them. You never get over this kind of death, but life goes on, and they need to do so, as well.

[Heddi]

81. There's no way that would happen

and I think Michael knows that.

They've (the Parents & Siblings & Their "Advisors") have exploited her life, exploited her terminal illness, and exploited her marriage.

Even if they agreed that they would be the only people to come to the service, there would be no way to ascertain that they wouldn't "leak" the location of her burial to their feverent supporters. 24-hour vigils would be set up at her gravesite. Her grave marker would continuously be desecrated or stolen. Her grave would always be at risk for theft or vandalism.

Michael would never be able to have a moment alone with his wife's remains because of the constant barage of protestors and supporters who would no doubt remain there for several years or decades to come.

Dirt from her grave would be sold on Ebay. Grains would be put in glass vials to hang around your neck, a la "Blood of Christ" vials that are sold by the thousands.

This is the only way that Michael can ensure that she FINALLY get peace because they (her parents, their advisors, their supporters) would NEVER let that woman FINALLY get the supposed dignity, peace, and tranqulity that comes with death.

[amazona]

83. go michael

If this is true, YOU GO DUDE! I'd do the same.

Her parents and her brother are a disgrace to humanity.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[demo dutch]

87. I am sure this is not the end. More lawsuite will be coming down the pike!

[Ms Chicklet]

95. Don't forget the sister

She went in front of the cameras and talked out of both sides of her mouth, saying that threats and negative talk were not what Terri and her family were about, then saying Terri was free from those that were supposed to care for her but neglected her.

Terri Schiavo probably did a happy dance when she was finally free of that rotten bunch of bananas.

[Kimber Scott]

86. Two services seem to be the only option in this case. nt

[Erika]

94. Terri has the right to burial in peace

Unfortunately, her parents have drawn/been used by those groups who wish to continue to use Terri as a poster child for their extremist political agenda.

[caligirl]

125. The Schindlers opened themselves up to this, they threatened

retaliation for not getting a slice of the malpractice award, they sold their soles to the opportunists who have made this into a media circus and political war. Her parents invalidated their rights to 'family ties' with Terri by virtue of these things and disregard for the marriage and life Terri had with this man.

Michael is doing the right thing by excluding these people, they worked real hard to earn this. They interfered left and right. A five year marriage should not have been dismissed, her husband should not have been put through this. I can't imagine how Terri might feel if she had witnessed what that so called family did to her husband.

Good for Micheal, the Schindlers are swindlers.

[Auntie Bush]

209. That's why I call them the Schwindlers.

[Princess Turandot]

131. My mother died a few months ago..

besides myself, I have a much older sister whom I think is a borderline sociopath and a much older brother, who is a retired NYPD officer. My brother lives in Florida. I haven't spoken to my sister in years altho she also lives in NYC. I hadn't spoken to my mother for a few years for reasons not worth going into here.

My brother came up to NYC a few months ago for a reunion of the squad he had been a part of. He was in my home for no more than 15 minutes, when the phone rang. It was my sister calling to tell me that our mother had died. She asked me if I was planning to attend the funeral and I said I wasn't sure. She said she would let me know what arrangements she made. Then she told me to let our brother know,
since 'she didn't know how to get a hold of him'. Now the reason she did not know how to get a hold of him was because 6 or so years prior, our sister had filed an anonymous bogus report that my brother's son and duaghter-in-law were sexually abusing their 18 month old baby. This was in Florida, that state that seems to lose 25% of the children in their care. THANK GOD that the child was not at home when the DCF people showed up, so they didn't immediately drag her off into foster care. They also got an investigator who was an older man who had previously did similar work in NYC and he investigated not over-reacted. By the time the investigation was over, they concluded it was so not true that they expunged the record. For reasons not worth taking up space with, there was no doubt that my sister had done this. There was also no doubt why she had done it: she had previously had my mother write a will which left the majority of her modest assets to her, nothing to my brother and a little something for my nephew. When my nephew and family came up to NYC from Florida so my mother could meet who was likely to be her only great-grandchild, my sister's radar went off and must have seen this baby as a competitor for the money.

Not long after this happened, my mother did change her will and my sister stopped talking to her. I was the only person around her for over 3 years. All I could think of was that if my mother died and we had a traditional funeral, we just might wind up on the front page of the NY Daily News, since a melee might just break out. ("Pay no attention to them, Father. Just keep praying..") As is understandable, my nephew wanted to kill my sister and my brother's feelings weren't much less intense. I was actually thinking of letting folks know abt her death afterwards for that reason.

My sister reconciled with my mother after she was promised all of her $$ again. When she mentioned my brother during that call, I told her that by coincidence, he was in my apartment right then. She never called me back with the arrangements but they were easy enough to find out. I decided not to attend the funeral but my brother announced that he was going to the wake. (Fortunately, my nephew is now in California and would not have made the trip back east.) My bro was not actually staying with me, but for several hours, I kept waiting to get a call from him from the Ninth Precinct, thinking he just might have put my sister into the casket with my mother. He wasn't armed, having given up his local carry permit years before, but he's a pretty large guy in good shape. Thankfully, he decided to go and pay his respects before the official wake started. The undertaker allowed him to do so, he signed the condolence book and then left. I didn't ask him, but I wondered whether he was afraid that he would lose his self-control if he saw my sister again and throttle her. I originally thought abt going with him, but I honestly wasn't sure whether I'd stop him or join him if he clobbered her.

Now, if I was worried abt all hell breaking loose among 4 or 5 people, I can completely understand why Michael Schiavo doesn't want his in-laws there with all the shit that has gone down because of them.

[Window]

187. I've sorta been there, done that.

My neice was married for two years to a schizo who ended up dead in a hotel room with a drugged-out hootchie mama. Her mother who is my older sister was in the hospital and could not make the funeral. My younger sister and I made all the arrangements and paid all the expenses including the only flowers, a bleeding heart collage from my neice, saying 'Beloved Husband.' Thank God there were no children from that brief union.

During the service, one of his many sisters and brothers became overcome with grief and rage and shouted at the top of her lungs that it was my neice's fault and that she, in effect, murdered their brother.

My sister and I were seated alone across the aisle from these eejits who, after the outburst headed en masse toward my neice.

We flew to my neice's side and got her to safety with the help of the funeral director and his aides. The cops were called and escorted us to the cemetery (she insisted on going).

I have never seen, heard, and most certainly never been a part of anything so ridiculous in my life. It was mind boggling.

I cannot blame Michael Schiavo one bit for wanting some privacy and dignity for his wife's burial. Lord knows he's been through hell and back dealing with the Schindlers and those fundy wackos. We've all seen the circus, media included, and so-called press conferences outside the Hospice labeling him a murderer, abuser, etc,...there's no telling what those fools would do. I wouldn't put in pass someone to actually try and do serious harm Michael.

Dear Lord, dear Lord, what a mess.

[Window]

188. Self delete, double post

[chookie]

136. As someone who experienced disruptions by wackos at a funeral...

it does not seem like rocket science that Mr Schiavo would choose to keep the Schindlers, who have been histrionic wackos for years now, away from the funeral he is planning.

When my grandmother died, my mother's two psycho sisters acted out BIG time during the visitation, and then at the funeral. It made a difficult experience grotesque and miserable. Too crazy to control themselves even for a matter as solemn as their mother's funeral....

Mr Schiavo, alas, is only showing good judgement in this, and he has my support and understanding.

It is sad it has to be this way, but it is a sensible decision considering the circumstances.

I wish all here peace and reconciliation in their own lives, and pray none of you will ever endure such discord.

[saigon68]

140. histrionic wackos for years

They truly are Nut-Jobs. Their performances on the nightly news for the past 3 weeks bears this out.

THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN CONFINED TO PADDED CELLS "years ago"

[Princess Turandot]

170. When one of my aunts died, her daughter-in-law, with whom she

did not have a warm and fuzzy relationship, threw herself onto the corpse wailing & moaning as people were filing by prior to the casket being closed and taken to the church. Two men had to drag her off of the body.

[fortyfeetunder]

138. Another speculation...

I can't bring myself to get wrapped up in this, but one thought crossed my mind...Michael Schaivo probably got an earful from Terri about her parents before she took for the worse. And that was probably why he was her fiercest advocate to the end. He was going to protect her from them, at any cost, period.

[Catchawave]

149. Another thought....

Terri's bulimic condition could have been fueled by years of her Mom ragging on her chubbiness? That's what happened to my sister, but she was smart enough to get into therapy and recover. She virtually had no self-esteem after a childhood of fat jokes...from my parents!

[Window]

189. Excellent point.

Which makes him an even better man in my book. Kudos to MS.

[calimary]

206. That actually makes perfect sense.

And if she was bulimic, and her family did tease her and give her a rough time about her weight when she was younger, it wouldn't surprise me at all if she was anxious to get away from them (and probably cried on her husband's shoulder more than a few times about it). I had weight problems as a kid. My parents were not happy about it, or patient or understanding or accepting of me, and my mother never stopped pinching my hips and poking me where I was fat, to draw attention to it and underscore her disapproval. I was extremely sensitive about it and it made me feel even uglier than I already did. When a nice guy came along who loved me for myself and not for what my bathroom scale said about me, and with whom I thought I could live for the long term, I broke all land speed records getting outta there. I think the worst was after I'd had my first baby and hadn't lost the pregnancy weight. And YES I was sensitive about it. My mother needled me yet again. I even asked her if she could ever accept me just as I am. She said she couldn't. I'm STILL getting over that one, fifteen years later. (PS - my husband and I are still together. Monday will be 29 years.)

[Nevernose]

207. If the burial site is publicly known, it'll become a shrine

For the pro-life freakshow still outside the fucking hospice.