Jane Fonda Says Vietnamese Visit Was a Betrayal

[Freddie Stubbs]

By Associated Press


NEW YORK -- Jane Fonda says her 1972 visit to a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun site, an incident that brought her the nickname "Hanoi Jane," was a "betrayal" of American forces and of the "country that gave me privilege."

"The image of Jane Fonda, `Barbarella,' Henry Fonda's daughter ... sitting on an enemy aircraft gun was a betrayal ... the largest lapse of judgment that I can even imagine," Fonda told Leslie Stahl in a "60 Minutes" interview that will air Sunday night.

more: http://metromix.chicagotribune.com/news/celebrity/sns-ap-books-jane-fonda,0,2083726.story?coll=mmx-celebrity_heds

[GarySeven]

1. I'm sure that such a heartfelt apology by a born-again Christian ...

will be promptly embraced and welcomed by Conservatives across America.

[rkc3]

4. And then they'll all aologize to Kerry for their remarks too.

And then dumbya will admit he stole the first election and eats babies for breakfast.

[VegasWolf]

29. Is she a born again? That explains it. Her actions protesting the

illegal Vietnam War were partially responsible for saving the
lives of countless soldiers who would have been lost had that
war gone on. Screw Fonda, wait, I'd rather not.

[Karenina]

45. Wonder who got her to "sing" now...

Jesus or *Rove... :shrug:

[VegasWolf]

47. LOL. Senility?

[LittleClarkie]

82. She actually apologized for this to a group of veterans years ago

This is a rehash really.

[Silverhair]

159. Not really.

In her 1988 program with Barbara Walters she never admitted that she did anything wrong.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VegasWolf]

100. I lost a lot of good buddies in Nam. I believed then and I believe

now that we never should have been involved in that ill concieved
war, just as I believe we should not be in Iraq today. Anything
that hastened the end, inglorius as it was, to the Veitnam War
was in my opinion a good thing. Fonda's actions helped mobilize a
huge distaste for the war appetite here at home. I still think that
is a good thing.

[question everything]

103. That's a lot of outcome to assign to one person who did nothing more

than just a photo opportunity, who had not control over budget and policy and votes and people

[Jackpine Radical]

106. I think you'd better refresh yourself on some history.

Vietnam was taken over by the French and colonized in about 1880. During WWII they pulled out & allowed the Japanese to move in. Ho began his revolution by fighting against the Japanese invaders. When the French moved back in after the war, Ho just kept on fighting. In 1954 the French gave up the ghost after losing disastrously at Dienbienphu. When they pulled out, the country was "temporarily" split, and the Geneva Accord called for the country to be unified through an election to be held in 1956. Because it was obvious that Ho would win, the US forced a suspension of the election & installed a puppet government in the south. Ho did the same thing he had done in 1945. GHe kept on fighting. At that time he controlled the north directly, and had the backing of the majority in the south. The US went in to support the puppet government, against the will of the majority of the population, & then it just kept getting deeper. We never had the support of the populace, either north or south. The war was caused, not by an invasion from the north, but by the resistance of the people to a highly unpopular puppet government. That government, the Diem Regime, was so bad that the US covertly set up an assassination as a means of decapitating it & replacing the head.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jackpine Radical]

115. The US had a lot of financial interest in VN.

I remember sitting in an NCO club in Cam Ranh awaiting a flight out for R&R, talking to a civilian who was involved in the exploration of the South China Sea for offshore oil. We also had a covetous eye on all the things that made VN so profitable for the French. Rubber plantations, for one thing. Michelin owned many hectares of rubber trees.

As for atrocities, as an infantryman in the 1st Cav I saw some too, committed by both sides.

Ho was a nationalist. He needed outside help from somewhere. He obviously wasn't going to get it from us. The obvious choices were the Chinese or the Russians. The Chinese were their traditional oppressors, so he didn't want them to get a grip once again in Vietnam. That left the Russians. They had the wonderful virtue of being very far away rather than sharing a border. Remember that the great heroes of Vietnamese history were people (in one case a woman) who organized the people against Chinese invaders.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[catastrophicsuccess]

156. You are seriosly brainwashed and fought for a lie

Ho Chi Minh was educated in France not the Soviet Union.

Ho Chi Minh was dead when Vietnam invited the Soviets into Cam Rhan Bay. They only did it after the China/US/Khmer Rouge alliance was formed and China invaded Vietnam.

The only widespread killing of civilians in SE asia was at the hands of US airpower. Many were sent to re-education camps after the war but there were no large scale massacres. One exception was at Hue during the Tet Offensive. But overall the NVA/VC treated the civilian population of South Vietnam much better that the US (see My Lai massacre).

Yea Nixon won but what did he do? He negotiated a surrender and got the hell out of there.

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[catastrophicsuccess]

139. US broke the Geneva Accords first

By not allowing elections in South Vietnam in 1954 - which the NLF would have won in a landslide. JFK and LBJ were wrong about Vietnam. The NLF/North were nationalists first and communists second. The South was a coalition of cowards/Catholics/Rich. The US was the 'bad guy' without question.

[coda]

143. You present the narrowest of views.

That you point to mismanagement and LBJ, never mention Nixon, and
then dump the outcome in the lap of an American actress who visited in MID '72 , is very telling. As well as ridiculous.

[sidpleasant]

144. "Many good Americans understood ..."?

So does that inflammatory choice of words mean that you think my late father, a career Marine who served a tour of duty in Viet Nam at age 45 even though he thought the war was a huge waste of US lives, was a bad American?

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cha]

148. And what about that Pesky

Gulf of Tonkin incident?

Thanks for the history here.

[karynnj]

111. or there would never have been a war, if Eisenhower would have

allowed the Vietnam wide vote that was called for in the settlement with France. We didn't want it because Ho Chi Ming (at that time) was seen as the man who kicked out the French and he would have won.

[Zhade]

116. Yeah, yeah, you probably think we should have "nuked the gooks", too.

Wannabe-triumphalist revisionist bullshit.

[catastrophicsuccess]

135. ahh so you are a Nixon Liberal

[TheWraith]

141. Military juggernaut that she is, I doubt Jane Fonda changed the outcome NT

[JimmyJazz]

146. This post is really, really familiar. I'm sure I read the same thing

almost verbatim on another site. No. I must be mistaken.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

149. Hmmmm

[JimmyJazz]

153. Perhaps a different screen name is in order?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

154. Swoop n' Poop?

:wow:

[JimmyJazz]

158. I was thinking "seagull" - But I like yours better.

:D

[question everything]

102. First, boob job for someone who was proud of her athletic body

now apologizing for her behavior, what next, being barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen?

[soleft]

2. Because of an interview Jane Fonda gave to the BBC in 1978

I became interested in progressive politics.

Imagine my disappoint.

[okieinpain]

5. why.

[Merlin]

3. She's right. More important, it sent the wrong message to America.

As an ardent Vietnam peace activist after my return from combat in 1970, I did my damndest to keep the left from championing the NVA and VC and Ho Chi Minh. Unfortunately, many failed to get the message. Egged on by FBI plants, elements of the peace movement tragically conveyed the sense, to the American public, that peace activists favored the enemy.

That message mucked up the peace effort and delayed the war's end.

[David Zephyr]

13. I Agree With You Except For What Delayed The War's End.

Henry Kissinger, Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford delayed the war's end, not errors by peace activists.

Actually, Henry Kissinger, probably more than any single individual can be blamed for the war's continuation at the cost of tens of thousands more American lives and millions more Indo-Chinese when, in an act of high treason, he secretly undermined President Johnson's efforts for peace in 1968 by working clandestinely with Richard Nixon's campaign while employed by LBJ's State Department. The reward for Kissinger's raw ambition? He was made Secretary of State under a new Nixon Administration.

Please don't confuse small blunders of the heart by peace activists with the intentional, malicious and treasonous acts of the war-mongering officials in both the Johnson, Nixon and Ford Administrations.

I also was an ardent peace activists and organizer against the War in Vietnam in both the 1960's and 1970's at great personal cost to myself including estrangement from my own family.

[enough]

19. Right, DZ (nt)

[leesa]

78. Very well said.

[Zhade]

120. Ah, the truth. Thank you for stating it.

NT!

[Redstone]

16. Well said. Not sure about the FBI part, but.

just because we didn't belong there, that didn't make the NVA and VC good guys.

Because they were not.

Redstone

[Snap]

70. Not good guys,

but Vietnam was certainly their home turf.

[Redstone]

89. Can't argue with that.

There's always the fact that they might not have done some of the horrible shit they did if we weren't there. Though I'm really referring to the things they did to other Vietnamese. Bad stuff. Commies tend to be like that.

But as you said, and I agreed, it was / is their country, not ours.

Redstone

[Zhade]

121. "Commies tend to be like that."

I'm not a communist, but I call bullshit. You DO realize you just slandered the peaceful communists on this board, right?

[theboss]

137. I think he was talking about Stalin and Mao

Communists in their co-ops in Berkeley don't kill and torture much. Communists in charge of armies and gulags do.

[Zhade]

162. Those guys were communists the way b**sh is a Christian.

NT!

[catastrophicsuccess]

157. Oh you mean like My Lai kind of stuff? nt

[indepat]

17. Protesting America's betrayal of herself (Tuchman's thought) rather than

embracing those we are at war with would still be painted as anti-Americanism by those who foster the God-given right for the US to make war on anyone of its choosing at any time for any reason whatsoever a president wants (especially what a Republican president wants as is the current pre-emptive war doctrine), especially if the country involved leans a teensy-weensy bit to the left of extreme right or its leader does.

[DWolper]

26. Thank you, Merlin. You are 100% right about this!...n/t

[MADem]

36. Valid point

I've said this in other threads, but the prevailing opinion was, back then, that there was a group of wastrel hippie agitators that were causing all the problems and somehow being "unpatriotic." Between the (tame looking, now) long hair, unwashed look, the beads, the odd jewelry, the no bras, bandanas, the dirty feet, and so on, NO ONE HEARD THE MESSAGE. Jane became part of that "crowd." It was only when the cleaner cut Vietnam vets, and the FAMILIES--moms in aprons, dads with crewcuts--started bitching that the worm began to turn.

Her heart was in the right place, but her methodology sucked. The attention came to HER, not the error in prosecuting the war.

There's nothing wrong with using "the establishment" (remember that word?) as a real PARTNER in getting out the word. You can preach all day to a choir of clones who think like you, the challenge is to win the hearts and minds of the everyman and everywoman.

[David Zephyr]

54. The worm that turned was that the U.S. began losing the war quickly.

Again, there seems to be this continued non-historical thinking that a certain element of the peace movement delayed Johnson, Nixon and Ford (all with Kissinger's involvement, by the way) from pulling out of Vietnam.

The worm that turned on the Vietnam war was mostly that the U.S. was facing a complete rout by the Vietcong and the North Vietnamese. The U.S. left Vietnam only because it had resoundingly been defeated.

[MADem]

56. The way to win was impossible, morally

They could have deployed tac nukes, but they realized that would be opening a can of deadly worms. And they had no clue as to how to fight an insurgency (that hearts and minds thing is tricky).

We had WW2/Korea leadership directing the fighting a different kind of war, and they refused to adapt and use psyops effectively.

[David Zephyr]

57. Surely you are not suggesting that our conventional war there was moral?

You really should read the Pentagon Papers and learn the history of how and why the United States got militarily involved in Vietnam, how we broke an international agreement to allow democratic elections in a unified Vietnam, how we propped up a Catholic dictator in a Buddhist country, how the CIA ordered the assassination of the President of South Vietnam and much, much more.

It is hard for some Americans to still accept that a peasant, agrarian nation was able to defeat the most powerful and richest nation in the history of the earth in war, but that is, nonetheless, what happened.

[MADem]

58. Uh, read my post please before you give me a history lesson

I read the Pentagon Papers in the NEWSPAPERS, contemporaneously with their publication. Learn the history? I lived the damn history. And I see it repeating itself here in the dawn of the 21st Century.

The way to WIN was to use tac nukes. I am not advocating the use of such weapons, but that option was on the table, and it was discussed in depth, and we came closer to doing it than many Americans realize. The result would have been a Pyhrric victory, but it would have gone into the win column nonetheless.

I am not going to get into a long discussion of that war with you, I concur that it was an error, we should have listened to the French, who warned us, but competing policies and interests (remember the domino theory?) overrode the day.

[David Zephyr]

60. Our conventional war was also not moral.

I'm glad you see the repetition of an ill-advised war again, MADem.

The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution became this generation's Iraqi War Resolution.

The "attack on our ships in the Gulf of Tonkin" has morphed into the "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq, hasn't it?

The parallels are indeed most distressing.

In Tom Hayden's autobiography --- written before the Iraqi War --- he submitted hopefully that perhaps the one thing we would learn from Vietnam would be to not be fooled by rushing into foreign wars hastily, but to question them fervently beforehand.

Obviously, even that grasping for "something" positive out of the Vietnam War was just that... a grasp. We learned nothing whatsoever.

And, yes, I do remember the "domino theory". It was like a biblical incantation in our national paranoid psyche, wasn't it. Almost like, "mushroom clouds over American cities", huh?

I just find scapegoating of Jane Fonda by liberals pathetic. The implication by some here, not you, is that she somehow subverted Nixon's good motives to end the war sooner. Jane Fonda is a decent woman who, like African-Americans, homosexuals and immigrants has provided the right-wing with its bogeymen to fan the fears of an ignorant public.

Notice how the right-wing is rallying now to defend the wicked Tom Delay. They never eat their own. Only the Left. Only the oppressed blame the oppressed. It's as predictable as the sun rising every morning because it has been going on for ten thousand years.

Peace.

[tavalon]

97. Luckily, Bush

has gotten over that thing about the tactical nukes. He's itchin' to use them and will use them very, very soon, I believe. It makes me incredibly sick to think about it but I really think it's going to happen in Iran.

[Eloriel]

101. EXACTLY -- military history shows that it's impossible to win

a guerilla war EXCEPT by genocide, which is exactly what happened on THIS continent, starting about 1492.

That's one huge reason so many of us were against the Iraq war: it was likely to be equally unwinnable as Vietnam. (There were many reasons, but that was one.)

[Merlin]

77. Not quite accurate. We were not losing militarily.

But we were finding that a viable, strong anti-communist popular government in the South could not be built, despite our best efforts.

In the end, the people of South Vietnam saw the Saigon government as puppets of the Americans. They came (correctly, imo) to see Ho Chi Minh as a true Vietnamese nationalist and patriot.

In short, we and our puppets failed to win the "hearts and minds" of the Vietnamese people.

But we were not losing militarily. The US could well have remained in S Vietnam forever. Our presence meant an endless stalemate. There is no way we could have been militarily defeated by the North.

With all due respect, you will find no evidence to support the assertion that we were losing or on the verge of losing.

The problem for Nixon & Co. was that the American people finally came to their senses about the fact that it was pointless to keep losing lives and distressing the nation only to achieve a stalemate. They began to realize there was no true end in sight; no "light at the end of the tunnell."

Eventually the logic of peace won the support of the American electorate. Politics dictated withdrawal, even though we knew the instant we left, the South would be swallowed by the North.

Is the same scenario playing out in Iraq? It's pretty damn close. Stay tuned.

[David Zephyr]

151. A military defeat. Not the soldiers' fault, but the stupidity of the war

There was no peace with honor, Merlin. We were defeated and fled as Saigon fell beneath our very eyes...hardly a stalemate.

The only example of any "American electorate" at that time which you refer to would be the 1972 election where Richard Nixon won the largest electoral victory in American history. No election changed the hearts of Nixon, Ford or Kissinger. The rout in Vietnam did.

Your attempt to somehow posthumously ascribe honorable intentions to Jerry Ford and Richard Nixon in order to save historical face with regards to America's military first military defeat deserves no further comment from me.

[Zhade]

123. And I thank you for AGAIN pointing out the truth.

Seems there are a lot of misconceptions still out there. Posts like yours help erase the ignorance.

[David Zephyr]

155. Thanks.

The misconceptions are sadly understandable, but are, nonetheless, still inaccurate. It is a human characteristic to try to salvage some "good" out of something so wrong. The best day in the Vietnam War was the day we brought all of our soldiers back home where they belonged all along.

What is hard to fathom is how the policy makers were held unaccountable for sending all of those youngsters into the hell of war knowing all along that the reasons they were giving were fabrications and lies and that there was no way that the U.S. could ever win a war there.

Apparently, the old canard diverting veteran anger away from the ones created the fiasco in the first place toward the straw horse of a Jane Fonda or peace-niks still works to some degree, doesn't it?

[Spinoza]

53. Yep.

I was there too. "Bring The War Home" wasn't exactly designed to win adherents to the peace movement.

[jdj]

72. I wouldn't call it the "largest lapse of judgement". what about the war?

or the iraq war?

why is there no image of Hanoi Kennedy, or Hanoi Johnson?

for the love of God will men stop finding a woman to pin the blame for everything on...

[Merlin]

79. Jane is talking about her own "largest lapse of judgement"

Sure right wing idiots continue to blame her and the peace movement generally for "losing" the war.

In fact, the war was "lost" before it began, because we entered into it knowing up front we could never do the one single thing we needed to do to achieve victory: invade North Vietnam with ground troops. We couldn't do that because the Chinese threatened to intervene if we did.

The insanity of Vietnam is that our military and political minds were stupid enough to think they could "win" the war playing only defense on the ground, and relying on air power alone to attack the North with.

[doc05]

92. Nice chip on your shoulder.

[Benhurst]

6. Poor Jane. She never was one of the brighter bulbs in the

Hollywood marquee. But she meant and means well.

[Hardrada]

14. I thought she was hot!

Wowzirs.

[David Zephyr]

15. To the contrary, she is one of the most intelligent actresses in filmdom.

I don't have any idea what you base your gratuitous comment on, but "dim" is hardly a word that easily associates itself with Jane Fonda.

[Judi Lynn]

88. Nothing gets reactionaries wilder than someone who doesn't salute

their lowest, most ignorant, and brutal efforts. n/t

[sniffa]

7. is this reaLLy news though?

i mean, there are distant reLatives of the schiavos to interview and inquiries into jacko's heaLth.... nothing important going on.

[PhuLoi]

8. Jane Fonda is now a born- again?

[GarySeven]

9. Yes. That's why she divorced Ted

who is either an agnostic or atheist.

[checks-n-balances]

73. No, actually I think it was the other way around...

He wanted to split because of her beliefs - at least that's what I remember about the story in the Atlanta paper.

[DURHAM D]

10. Southern Baptist -

I think. She won't say.

[xxqqqzme]

20. I know....

Jane Fonda....born again?? I simply refused 2 believe it. Does she show up on TBN or the 700 club? I don't know. She may B 'born again' but I haven't heard if she is N2 evangelizing.

[GarySeven]

52. Unlike many "born agains" she's the real thing.

She keeps her religion to herself, like Jesus told us to do. But her faith is real, as anyone from Atlanta can attest.

[Journeyman]

11. Can we now -- at long last -- can we all come home from that war. . .

and belated as it may be, try to learn the lessons of that conflict that got so lost amongst all the hatred we have felt for ourselves and our fellow citizens who may have disagreed? Or are there more atonements needed before we finally reach the beginnings of the agreements we should have resolved decades ago?

There are so many new lessons to learn -- so many disasters that trace their roots in part to our inability to come to grips with aspects of our past -- and we have so little time left . . .

[halobeam]

74. Re-read your post Journeyman.. as if it's 25 years into the future

I just got the chills. I could imagine my kids and their friends begging to let the mess from 2005 FINALLY end. How sad to see history repeat itself, ... the dems with screams so loud they deafen the repubs ears so they may never EVER hear them, even if they wanted to, which they won't EVER want to anyway. God am I sad.

[mmonk]

12. And the purpose of this interview?

There's no news here.

[kskiska]

33. She's got an autobiography coming out

Hence, the interview.

Jane has been through numerous transformations. The fresh-faced ingenue daughter of Henry Fonda. Roger Vadim's wife (after his marriage to Brigitte Bardot). He turned her into "Barbarella." Then came Activist, anti-war Jane with her marriage to Tom Hayden. When that ended she became Fitness Jane, making a fortune with her exercise videos. Then she married Ted Turner and played mogul wife. The marriage ended partly because of her new interest in religion.

[mmonk]

68. oh

I was unaware she had a book coming out. I can't stand autobiographies unless its an autobiographical account of a particular unusual event.

[Carolab]

76. Typical Hollywood child.

Trying to find herself, trying to justify her good fortune in life. Her whole life long.

Shifting with the wind, like Madonna.

Sad, isn't it?

[TahitiNut]

18. Indeed, it was a 'betrayal' ...

... and instead of being a positive example of anti-war/peace activism, it became emblematic of America's betrayal of the troops - and fodder for the jingoistic right's (and left's) dismissal of legitimate and conscientious anti-war activism. As a returned Vietnam veteran who was dealing with a mountain of betrayal, her behavior embodied the animosity and alienation I felt. I was not alone. I believe her behavior robbed VVAW and the anti-war movement of the participation and support of thousands like me, and probably drove many politically immature veterans to the right. (Much of politics is reactive.)

[still_one]

21. too little too late

Joan Biaz never did that crap

[Wright Patman]

22. It would have been so much

better if she had "betrayed" herself to me. I was at just the right age in 1972 for her to be my "Mary Kay LeTourneau."

Every teenaged boy in America had the hots for Jane Fonda and most of us were aspiring hippies worried about being drafted by that time, so the North Vietnam "betrayal" thing was just something we heard from our grumpy dads.

[FtWayneBlue]

23. But she IS sticking by her guns and saying the war was wrong.

(further down in same article)
"Fonda, whose memoir "Jane Fonda: My Life So Far" comes out next week, said she did not regret meeting with American POWs in North Vietnam or making broadcasts on Radio Hanoi. "Our government was lying to us and men were dying because of it, and I felt I had to do anything that I could to expose the lies and help end the war," she said."

Our government lying to us? People dying because of it?
Deja-vu all over again. I hope she says the same thing about the current occupation of Iraq, curtesy of the Bush Regime.

[endarkenment]

25. note she says 'men were dying'

as in our soldiers. The million or so vietnamese, many of them civilians, lots of women and children, don't seem to matter much anymore to Jane. Hey Jane, do you remember those dead? Do you remember why you were so outraged? Do you remember what our government was lying about?

There was a lot of excess in our opposition to that war. We should learn from that, and I think we have to a certain extent. Whatever we do in opposition to the war will be used, if it can, by the right wing revisionists as they attempt to transform the inevitable defeat into a betrayal of Our Glorious Nation by libruls and leftwing commie bastards.

We should be careful to not give them too many cannon straddling pictures to use against us. We should however be steadfast in our opposition to the wars we are waging and planning to wage.

[David Zephyr]

55. Jane Fonda Gave the Single Largest Donation to Harvard on Behalf of Women

Your transparent attempt (in your 12th post) to smear Jane Fonda as not being appreciative of women falls really short in light of the fact that she gave the largest private gift to Harvard University to pioneer research on behalf of girls and women around the globe. I'm sure that's a bit more than you will ever do. I have given you the link to the Harvard story below --- if you are interested in facts.

--------------------------


Actress Jane Fonda came to the Harvard Graduate School of Education (GSE) Friday, March 2, to announce her donation of $12.5 million to launch the Harvard Center on Gender and Education. It is the largest gift from a single individual the GSE has ever received.

Fonda appeared at a press conference at Longfellow Hall along with Jerome T. Murphy, Dean of the GSE, and Carol Gilligan, the Patricia Albjerg Graham Professor of Gender Studies. Gilligan's groundbreaking research on gender and human development, spanning the course of 20 years, was the inspiration for Fonda's gift.

"This project is very close to my heart," Fonda said. "It's taken me a very long time to see the impact gender roles have had on my life, and if I, as a privileged, white, aging movie star, have had to wait this long, I can't even imagine what young women who are less fortunate than I am have had to deal with."

Fonda said that the new center will build on three decades of pioneering work by Gilligan on the way gender affects the development of girls and women. Gilligan's research has had an international impact on women's lives, she remarked.

Full Story: http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2001/03.08/01-fonda.html

[Bridget Burke]

86. "A lot of excess in our opposition to that war"?

Yes, some of Jane's actions weren't well thought out. But I don't remember a lot of excess in protesting the war.

And I certainly don't think that those against our current illegal, stupid waste of lives should be worried about what the right wingers say.

[Oeditpus Rex]

24. Not only that...

I believe her behavior robbed VVAW and the anti-war movement of the participation and support of thousands like me, and probably drove many politically immature veterans to the right. (Much of politics is reactive.)

...but also gave a generation (at least) of asshats a basis, however flimsy or inaccurate, for painting liberals with a broad brush dipped somewhat ironically in red paint. Methods of protest and avenues of dissent must be carefully selected that they do not inadvertantly abet one's foes.

[AlCzervik]

27. I wonder is she's sick?

[unhappycamper]

28. Ever since she pulled that shit in Hanoi

I have made it one of my missions in life to boycott everything she does. My message to her: GFY! She's not even worth my time to spell it out.

:puke: :puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

[Pepperbelly]

35. see my post below ...

:D

[unhappycamper]

64. you are correct -

she is a miserable piece of shit that does not deserve to breath the same air as veterans.

[TankLV]

84. Gee - I thought I was in DU - when did I fall into Freeperville?

I can't believe the posts I'm reading here!

The war was wrong then, it has remained wrong now.

It will never be justified!

[American Tragedy]

118. Who in the thread indicated that the war was justified?

Many just happen to believe that Jane Fonda was mistaken when she basically chose to act as a war propaganda tool for a totalitarian nation.

[Zhade]

124. Post #99, near the top, by our new "friend".

Says the war was "moral".

[American Tragedy]

127. Yes, I see it.

But I was actually referring to this particular branch of the thread, to which the poster before me was specifically replying.

Personally, I find it bizarre for any war to be called "moral", regardless of what side one is on.

[Zhade]

133. What about WWII?

I guess I'd call it "sadly necessary" rather than "moral", but some would probably argue against that view.

[American Tragedy]

136. As you say, sadly necessary. One of VERY few wars to be so categorized.

But if you trace back far enough, there are always comparatively non-violent means of preventing wars from arising in the first place. WWII was rendered inevitable by the reparations imposed upon Germany by France & Great Britain. Their demand for revenge merely set the stage for opportunistic right-wing extremism in Germany, and doomed the world to another devastating round of mass murder and destruction.

I guess the question is whether we can trust ourselves to temporarily use violent means judiciously, and then cease once it's all over? Or is war a game in which the only way to win and to save your soul is to refuse to participate at all, even if you forfeit innocent blood and treasure?

I normally would say that it is always justifiable to actively defend oneself and one's property from unwarrented intrusion, whether it be a burglar or an invading army, but I have to recognize that the means of doing so are often inherently immoral. At best, it's an act of horrible desperation, when no other solution can be found.

[Zhade]

161. An excellent reply. Very well-said.

NT!

[nolabels]

30. Yea, so what does she say about the invasion of Iraq?

:shrug:

[bluestateguy]

31. A much more heartfelt apology than we have heard in the past

[Neshanic]

32. She was absorbed a while ago. Swaggert was forgiven, she will not.

The Born Agains would forgive a porn movies and another hooker escapade of Swaggert before Jane would be cut a break, even if Christ himself dipped her in a swimming pool.

Poor Jane, so freaking delusional. Born Agains say they that all sins are washed away, but some people sins are considered more wash and wear than others by them.

By the way Jane, peddle crazy somewhere else. At least your agent should talk to ABC to postpone till the Terri/Pope is not in the news. Then we will hang on every word from your pained face in a plush suite with Barbara the "career reconstructionist".

[Pepperbelly]

34. It doesn't matter, not even a popcorn fart in a high wind.

The people that hate her will hate her until the day they die. Period.

[DemoTex]

37. I'm sure Jane will be keynote speaker at the Tailhook Convention now.

Right?

[David__77]

38. Fighting against US aggression was--and is--a worthy cause.

Fonda should apologize for being immature and for later wavering. However, she sympathized with a great national revolution by a great people who were fighting for their own freedom--there's nothing wrong in that.

While US warplanes and artillery and death squads waged genocide against the Vietnamese people, should we nitpick what Fonda's tactics of opposition were? So what if some were offended--they should be. The fat-headed US imperialism-loving war-monger needs to be shocked into consciousness, or far worse fates await this country.

[Vladimir]

39. Fucking right n/t

[VegasWolf]

40. Well said. n/t

[David__77]

41. ...and another thing.

If that anti-aircraft piece she visited shot down a US aggressor warplane and in doing so saved the lives of hundreds of Vietnamese people, how should we put this matter into perspective? Please consider this matter well and consider what our moral responsibility as human beings is.

[Robeson]

50. I agree.

[Zhade]

125. She wasn't helpful, but she was right to fight against the Empire.

NT!

[David__77]

42. Partial transcript of Jane Fonda Radio Hanoi address (judge for yourself).

Another student had requested the transcript of Jane Fonda's radio address which she had broadcast in North Vietnam. This transcription, dated August 22, 1972 was made from her Hotel Especen broadcast in Hanoi at 7:11 p.m.

The following was submitted in the U.S. Congress House Committee on Internal Security, Travel to Hostile Areas.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This is Jane Fonda. During my two week visit in the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, I've had the opportunity to visit a great many places and speak to a large number of people from all walks of life- workers, peasants, students, artists and dancers, historians, journalists, film actresses, soldiers, militia girls, members of the women's union, writers.

...

I cherish the way a farmer evacuated from Hanoi, without hesitation, offered me, an American, their best individual bomb shelter while US bombs fell near by. The daughter and I, in fact, shared the shelter wrapped in each others arms, cheek against cheek. It was on the road back from Nam Dinh, where I had witnessed the systematic destruction of civilian targets- schools, hospitals, pagodas, the factories, houses, and the dike system.

As I left the United States two weeks ago, Nixon was again telling the American people that he was winding down the war, but in the rubble- strewn streets of Nam Dinh, his words echoed with sinister (words indistinct) of a true killer. And like the young Vietnamese woman I held in my arms clinging to me tightly- and I pressed my cheek against hers- I thought, this is a war against Vietnam perhaps, but the tragedy is America's.

One thing that I have learned beyond a shadow of a doubt since I've been in this country is that Nixon will never be able to break the spirit of these people; he'll never be able to turn Vietnam, north and south, into a neo- colony of the United States by bombing, by invading, by attacking in any way. One has only to go into the countryside and listen to the peasants describe the lives they led before the revolution to understand why every bomb that is dropped only strengthens their determination to resist. I've spoken to many peasants who talked about the days when their parents had to sell themselves to landlords as virtually slaves, when there were very few schools and much illiteracy, inadequate medical care, when they were not masters of their own lives.

But now, despite the bombs, despite the crimes being created- being committed against them by Richard Nixon, these people own their own land, build their own schools- the children learning, literacy- illiteracy is being wiped out, there is no more prostitution as there was during the time when this was a French colony. In other words, the people have taken power into their own hands, and they are controlling their own lives.

And after 4,000 years of struggling against nature and foreign invaders- and the last 25 years, prior to the revolution, of struggling against French colonialism- I don't think that the people of Vietnam are about to compromise in any way, shape or form about the freedom and independence of their country, and I think Richard Nixon would do well to read Vietnamese history, particularly their poetry, and particularly the poetry written by Ho Chi Minh.

[bloom]

65. That part, at least, makes sense.

I don't know if there was something she said that was somehow worse.


If that is what she is apologizing for - that is sad.

[The_Casual_Observer]

43. A Betrayal of what?

Can you betray something that is already a betrayal of the trust of the US population? Have they so completely rewritten history now that the facts surrounding our involvement in Vietnam have been completely lost?

[VegasWolf]

44. Well, when that's what happens when you get born again. n/t

[Skittles]

46. it was and Ms. Fonda has apologized several times

but the so-called "Christian" wackos simply cannot forgive or forget.

[FlaGranny]

95. Your are right, Skittles, but there are also other

"wackos" who cannot forgive or forget - besides the right-wingers. In my opinion anyone who cannot forgive and forget is a wacko, because hatred is a self-destroying emotion. :-)

As an atheist, let me also say that I cannot believe there are some here who are ridiculing her for her personal religious beliefs. That's not reasonable, it's not nice, and it is not in any way liberal.

[agincourt]

48. Yawn

Last I checked, the Viet Nam war is over, nobody benefited from it, no one really won. eom.

[Gannon Man Date]

49. What the hell is going on?

Jane Fonda, Sandy Berger...

Did the BFEE develop a Mea Culpa ray gun?

[David Zephyr]

51. The U.S. Dropped More Bombs on Tiny Vietnam Than in All of WW II

Imagine that.

A greater amount of bombs were dropped by the United States military on a peasant population in a tiny country than was dropped against the Germans and the Japanese combined.

We grieve 55,000 American lives lost to that senseless war, but nearly 3,000,000 Indochinese also perished there.

I once posted here that according to my math, that would make the Vietnam War Memorial Wall in Washington, D.C. nearly 60 stories high should the names of the other dead also be included.

Fonda's opposition to the war and the Nixon and Kissinger war policies --- which included a planned bombing of the dikes which would have flooded and killed over 100,000 peasants --- was noble.

That being said, all Americans should also feel a great gratitude to the American soldiers who did not have the luxury of deciding whether it was a good or bad policy, but who served their country when it called.

That's why people like Ron Kovic and Bob Kerrey and John Kerry will always have my admiration. They came back and stood up against Nixon and the lies.

There's enough blame to go around for one thousand years when it comes to Vietnam. Just read the Pentagon Papers. The cowardly need to fixate on Jane Fonda is a convenient way to dodge facing the real reasons that the U.S. government allowed itself to be led into the quagmire of Vietnam.

[Charon]

85. Tiny Vietnam

I see a lot of blame placed on Nixon and Ford. Remember the lies that A Kennedy and a Johnson told to start that War. Every one in power in Washington from the early 60s through the mid 70s is culpably neglegent, whether Dem or Rep.

[David Zephyr]

152. See my earlier post #13 Above

I didn't cut Lyndon Johnson any slack if you will read my post #13 above. In this we certainly agree.

[Zhade]

126. Might want to look at Kerrey's involvement with Operation Phoenix.

IMHO, not so fine a guy as perhaps you envision him to be.

Otherwise, good post.

[demosincebirth]

59. I always thought when she went to Hanoi she would

some day regret it. As a liberal my whole life, I believe there are some things we should not do in protest of a cause. We can protest a war, but don't disrespect our soldiers in battle.

[Emillereid]

61. I spent a whole day with her back in 1971. We got 'detained' together at

Fort Meade, Maryland trying to talk to GIs about the war. She was a really sweet, good hearted woman -- but her politics were a bit naive and emotionally based. I doubt if she realized the impact that her picture in North Vietnam would have in the states. But it was a time of sharp lines. I don't regret to this day that I wanted the Vietnamese to win -- what else could one ethically believe after one realized how illegal and immoral was the US war of aggression against Vietnam. I didn't make my views a calling card though -- I would have known better than to get my photo taken like Jane. I remember at the time thinking that people were making a mountain out of a molehill about it -- little did I think the damn story would still have legs. I don't think Jane should have to be still apologizing! But Amurikans are a reactive, crazy bunch -- just note how easily they can constantly be distracted and brought to feverish pitch by highly emotion laden stories like the Shiavo case and Michael Jackson.

[nolabels]

94. I think they (or we)have been conditioned to be that way

Effing corporate squawk boxes start out on us when we are very young

Hey buddy, I'm talking to you. Yes, you, the guy sitting in front of the television. Turn down the sound a bit, so that you can hear what I am saying.

Now, try to concentrate on what I am going to say. I want to talk to you about your favorite pastime. No, it's not baseball or football, although it does have something to do with your interest in spectator sports. I'm talking about what you were just doing: watching television.
http://www.alternativescentral.com/turnoffyourtelevision-part1.htm

The thing that annoys me is these people who cannot be be responsible for even their own feelings and decide it's better to hide behind religion or something similar. This cop out Jesus crowd, when are they going to stop blaming everybody or everything else :shrug:

[Emillereid]

104. I don't watch much TV anymore -- except for a little on

FSTV and LINK and of course the Daily Show. Not even PBS. Like Nancy said --"Just Say NO" to corporate TV -- it'll rot your mind!

[nolabels]

113. I only watch NFL games on TEE VEE

I didn't know if you did or not. That was a just paste from that web page in the bold. I was really just speculating on the answer of why some of our comrades over-react to some stimuli in robotic fashion.

[Emillereid]

134. Well watching most TV lulls the brain into a zombie like state --

people become passive and very easily influenced.

"The 'Mulholland' experiment in the early 70's wired ten kids to
electroencephalograph (EEG) machines (which measure brain wave activity)
and sat them down in front of their chosen favourite programmes. He
expected to see plenty of fast beta waves, which would indicate that they
were actively responding to something (as is produced when reading or
during conservation); instead all he could find were the slower alpha
waves of the kind found when a person is in a coma or put in a trance
where the subject is not interacting with the outside world at all."
http://www.corporations.org/media/tv.

or

"In November 1969, a researcher named Herbert Krugman, who later became manager of public-opinion research at General Electric headquarters in Connecticut, decided to try to discover what goes on physiologically in the brain of a person watching TV. He elicited the co-operation of a twenty-two-year-old secretary and taped a single electrode to the back of her head. The wire from this electrode connected to a Grass Model 7 Polygraph, which in turn interfaced with a Honeywell 7600 computer and a CAT 400B computer.


"Flicking on the TV, Krugman began monitoring the brain-waves of the subject What he found through repeated trials was that within about thirty seconds, the brain-waves switched from predominantly beta waves, indicating alert and conscious attention, to predominantly alpha waves, indicating an unfocused, receptive lack of attention: the state of aimless fantasy and daydreaming below the threshold of consciousness. When Krugman's subject turned to reading through a magazine, beta waves reappeared, indicating that conscious and alert attentiveness had replaced the daydreaming state.


"What surprised Krugman, who had set out to test some McLuhanesque hypotheses about the nature of TV-viewing, was how rapidly the alpha-state emerged. Further research revealed that the brain's left hemisphere, which processes information logically and analytically, tunes out while the person is watching TV. This tuning-out allows the right hemisphere of the brain, which processes information emotionally and noncritically, to function unimpeded. 'It appears,' wrote Krugman in a report of his findings, 'that the mode of response to television is more or less constant and very different from the response to print. That is, the basic electrical response of the brain is clearly to the medium and not to content difference.... a communication medium that effortlessly transmits huge quantities of information not thought about at the time of exposure.'
http://dieoff.org/page24.htm

I used to be a psychologist -- this stuff has been known for a long time. TV is about selling stuff -- that's all!!

[ElectroPrincess]

62. And we'll all get new shoes!

When Jane expresses her Mea Culpa

:applause:



Jane Fonda must have slipped off the edge into insanity. She will NOT ever be forgiven by some. She needs to keep this sad part of her life (and for our Country - The Vietnam War Itself) behind her.

This has to be the stupidest thing she's ever done. Well, second to going to North Vietnam in the first place. :P

[Rockerdem]

63. Screw her. How is she any different from us who root for the Sunnis now?

We want the other side to prevail. Why should I or any of the other regulars on the present day war threads ever have to contemplate apologizing?

Senility has set in.

[Zhade]

128. I'm stunned you haven't been flamed for this post.

I can't say I blame you for how you feel, and maybe more people agree than one would suspect.

Honestly, I'd just prefer we leave before we inevitably lose, but no one listens to lil' ole me.

[chlamor]

66. Who Cares?-The Politics of Celebrity

seems to be the coin of the realm. Nero wasn't the only one fiddling. Who is next on the marquee? The Pope is about to go that should push Schiavo out of sight out of mind and the NEWs GOO drum beats on and on drowning out the relevant issues of our lives.

Meet the New War-Same as the Old War

[swag]

67. As usual,

when Jane is on camera, it's all about Jane.

[dave123williams]

69. Now that she's a billionaire divorcee, she things a little differently.

[raysr]

71. I disagree

anything that brought awareness to that "war" was a positive thing.

[ForrestGump]

75. Don't know if, strictly speaking, her Most Excellent Hanoi Adventure

was treason, but it sure was a massive lapse in sense and decency. What a doofus. I never liked her in the movies much, anyway -- she tends to annoy me, most of the time -- so even I wouldn't notice if I boycotted her for those long-ago acts of stupidity.

Interesting thing, if you look at her life in a fairly cursory way: she tends to change quite markedly depending upon the relationships/husband in her life at the time. Count me among those not fond of Fonda. Not that Fonda, anyway.

[LittleClarkie]

83. You mean like Reagan

in that he changed with his wives?

[Gyre]

80. So betrayal of an illegal war

is still betrayal? By that logic "Whistleblowers" are traitors too.

Gyre

[Freddie Stubbs]

90. Perhaps she felt that she was betraying the troops, not the war

It is one thing to speak out against the a war. It is something entirely different to do that on the enemy's soil.

[The Stranger]

108. This whole notion of an "enemy" and an "other" really needs rethinking.

Is South Viet Nam and its millions of people somehow the "enemy" because it or they may choose a different form of government?

(Did I fall asleep and wake up in 1950? (or 1050)??)

[Freddie Stubbs]

110. She didn't visit South Vietnam

She visited North Vietnam.

[The Stranger]

130. Oh. Right.

A shame. I hear the South is so much prettier.

[Zhade]

129. Awesome point, well-said!

NT!

[theboss]

138. It's also different to look through the sites of a gun aimed at Americans

That's the issue really. That gun probably took an American life at some point and she happily played with it.

[Kimber Scott]

81. People do dumb stuff when they're young. If they're lucky, they live long

enough to regret it.

[Bridget Burke]

87. Robert McNamara has his regrets, as well.

How many died because of the actions he's lived long enough to regret?

But people hate Jane more for her lapse of judgement.

[Kimber Scott]

150. Interesting comparison. nt

[Toucano]

91. This is nothing really new.

But it's more explicit than she's been in the past.

I'm pleased with her statement and hope it will help heal the lingering division in the country.

[SiouxJ]

93. if nothing else, this will take some of the thunder out of

my right wing acquaintance's passion for ranting about her. Now I can tell them she admitted it was a mistake, so calm down already. They LOVE to go on and on about their hate for her. I know people that actually think they are hurting her by boycotting her films. They really get off on telling anyone who will listen, how much they hate her. I don't think it will change anything but at least I can burst their hate bubble a little.

[Writer]

96. And this is the, what, fiftieth time she's apologized for this?

n/t

[plasticsundance]

98. Responses of the typical arrogant/ignorant imperialistic/colonial mindset.

The Vietnam War was a nationalistic fight against the abusive and intrusive force of colonial imperialism brought upon Vietnam's people by the French and the US.

Ho Chi Minh participated in tax revolts and other rebellious activities with his father when he was young. Those activities were against the French government that held control of Vietnam at the time. After he received a full education Ho Chi Minh worked a couple of jobs here and there. He was a teacher for sometime and then decided to take up a position as a Chef on a streamer that traveled from Saigon, Vietnam to Marsallies, France. Ho Chi Minh soon abandoned that job to do what made him the reason for the writing of this biography. What he did was lead the Vietnamese into a war to make them a free people.

Ho Chi Minh started his journey by becoming a photograph retoucher. While in this occupation Ho Chi Minh advanced his knowledge in the political scene. He advanced his knowledge by one, joining the Socialist Party. Another thing that he tried to do in France was convince Woodrow Wilson, who was there to sign a treaty to end World War I, about the abuses Vietnam was receiving from the French government and influence him to make Vietnam a independent country. Woodrow Wilson was reluctant in listening to a socialist, communist, and a rebel. Ho Chi Minh shortly after this incident became one of the founders of the French Communist Party. His explanation of this was, "It was patriotism, not communism, that inspired me." Then he moved on to learn more about communism in Russia.

Ho Chi Minh

After adopting the name Hồ Ch¨ª Minh (ºú Ö¾Ã÷), a Sino-Vietnamese name of a common surname (Hồ and a given name meaning aspiring (Ch¨ª) to light (Minh), he returned to Vietnam in 1941 to lead the Viet Minh independence movement, conducting successful military actions against the Japanese occupation forces and later against the French bid to reoccupy the country (1946-1954). Ho Chi Minh became President of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (North Vietnam) in 1954 (he had declared himself President on March 2, 1946 but this was not recognised internationally), when he forced Emperor Bao Dai to abdicate.

He signed an agreement with France which recognized Vietnam as an autonomous state in the Indochinese Federation and the French Union on March 6, 1946 but that compromise did not prevent the war that begun that December between Ho's forces and the French who tried to re-establish their colonial rule in the country; following the Chinese withdrawal from the North in exchange for French-occupied territories in China.

Ho Chi Minh

It is interesting to note that the Viet Minh were taught guerilla and terrorist tactics by the French and US to use against the Japanese in WWII.

Concerning Jane Fonda's current statement, with all due respect, who cares? It's just more egocentric, puerile, and sophomoric tripe. Unlike the brutalized people of Vietnam, the US was a victim of the Vietnam War by its own making and foreign policy blunders in that region of the world. It was the US that made victims of our young men and women in uniform at the time, not Ho Chi Minh.

Fonda's statement reminded me when David Crosby was on Bill Maher's show when it was still on ABC, and Crosby lectured on the problems of Islamists. Then clueless Crosby sits there with that drugged out idiot savant grin when another person pointed out the contradictions in his statements.

One of the most articulate and well-informed actor/star on politics and policy, at least I ever heard, is Sean Penn.

If someone did not get the memo, Kerry and McCain made peace with Vietnam and opened the door to do business and normal diplomatic relations with that particular nation. Vietnam won its right to be an independent nation at the cost of 2 million of its citizens lives.

Should we take small comfort Nixon didn't go ahead and nuke Vietnam, as he once suggested to Kissinger? :eyes:

It's Vietnam we owe an apology to, and we can throw in Cambodia and Laos to boot.

In all, more than two million tons of bombs, land mines, artillery shells and mortars were spread in Laos. Experts say nearly one-third did not detonate. This unexploded ordnance (known as UXO) has killed 6000 people since the war ended. And it killed nearly 100 people last year alone.

The ordnance is an obstacle to economic growth in Laos because land must be cleared in a time-consuming process before it can be used.

Laos Struggles With Deadly Legacy of Vietnam War

[dean_dem]

109. Don't forget...

That Ho Chi Minh quoted from The Declaration of Independence when his guerillas took Saigon in 1954.

On an aside, there is no question the North Vietnam regime was as brutal and repressive as the Southern puppet regime, but that doesn't absolve the US from the atrocities that were committed in the name of spreading Democracy (sound familiar)?

[BikeWriter]

105. Fuck her. She called returning POWs liars, too.

[Bridget Burke]

131. What's your opinion of Robert McNamara?

He helped escalate the war, but later said he was sorry. Are you as angry at him?

[BikeWriter]

147. He was reluctant to escalate the war, as was McNamara.

[Bo]

107. Why can't the U.S. admit they lost in vietnam?

I have never heard it said that we lost the war.

[Zhade]

132. Because even good, decent, liberal Americans see America as Special.

We are #1, even in the eyes of many people who KNOW we're not #1 at anything except economic imperialism, illegal wars, and hypocrisy.

When you've been brought up to believe your nation can do no wrong and cannot be bested, ever, why would you face the humiliation of having been kicked out of a country you wrongfully invaded?

I have a feeling your question will be repeated in another 30 years, only this time it will be asked about Iraq.

[American Tragedy]

114. Neither side was worthy of praise, frankly.

The United States was taking up the ancient imperialist mantel of the Europeans in the name of a typical baseless geopolitical theory, while the North Vietnamese were expanding their miserable totalitarian state in the name of a rather brutal unification. No positive outcome to be found there.

[frustrated_lefty]

117. I think...

there's a generation of Americans who finally got to see behind the curtain and realized the ugliness that can work its way into American politics. And, I think, many of us who didn't live through those times still had time to witness the derision which was cast upon VietNam vets. Some of us saw the damage those brave soldiers underwent in the aftermath. My mother dated several of those vets, and they were some of the most troubled men I've ever encountered.

I think many of us have a fierce, angry, gut-level instinct to defend those people who sacrificed so much, and an equal antagonistic response to any and everyone who is or was perceived as doing them a dis-service. The thought of anyone calling someone who has sacrificed so much, with devotion and patriotism at heart, a "baby-killer" fills my gut with revulsion and furious outrage.

Unfortunately, Mrs. Fonda was at the center of attention during those years. It makes her a lightning rod. In retrospect, I think her youthful actions were well intended, if mis-directed, and I believe her apologies have been sincere.

Just my take on it, for what it's worth.

"I think it's time we stop, children,
what's that sound?
Everybody look what's going down...."

FL

[American Tragedy]

122. She really wasn't all that youthful.

She was in her thirties, which does make it a little less easily excused than if she were twenty.

She did apologize a long time ago, though, and people really should be over it by now.

My heart just bleeds when I read about that entire era in American history and when my parents talk about it, even though I was born years after it ended.

[young_at_heart]

140. I'm the same age......I was very against "the war", but

I would never have done what she did! She made a huge mistake and now realizes the consequences......I'm glad she understands! I'll never stop feeling pain for my classmates who died.

[SemperEadem]

142. Oh, now it's a betrayal

now that she's 'born again'. Funny how it wasn't betrayal back in the 70's when she was young and marketable.