Pope's 'Living Will' Wants Life Support to the End (Reuters)

[Up2Late]

(It's official, there is no God)

Pope's 'Living Will' Wants Life Support to the End

Thu Mar 31, 2005 02:06 AM ET

By Tom Heneghan, Religion Editor

PARIS (Reuters) - Pope John Paul, now being fed through a nasal tube because of his throat problems, effectively wrote his own "living will" last year in a speech declaring some life-extending treatments a moral duty for Roman Catholics. The ailing Pontiff sharply narrowed Catholic guidelines for treating patients nearing death in March 2004 when he described tube-feeding as a normal treatment rather than an extraordinary measure that can be stopped if all hope of recovery fades.

This indicates he would want to be kept alive by artificial means even if he fell into a coma or a persistent vegetative state, such as the brain-damaged Terri Schiavo in the United States whose feeding tubes have been removed after 15 years. "The Pope's statement would have to be considered the equivalent of his living will," said Father Thomas Reese S.J., editor of the Jesuit weekly America in New York. "It would be very difficult to unplug him if it came to that."

Increasingly popular in the United States, a living will is a written statement adults make to indicate whether they want doctors to use all means possible to keep them alive at life's end or to let them die if all hope of recovery seems lost. As the Schiavo case shows, modern medicine can extend basic body functioning for years -- a worrying prospect for the world's largest church if that means its elected-for-life leader is incapacitated indefinitely.

The Catholic Church has traditionally taught that doctors and families could end artificial life-extending measures in good conscience if a dying patient's prospects seemed hopeless.

(more at link above)

[jdj]

1. "unplug"?

The Pope, "Unplugged in New York".

LOL.

[WiltedFlowerChild]

2. I don't get it

Why would he delay his arrival in heaven?

[jdj]

4. because he's top banana here and there he'll be a peon?

a little fish in a big pond.

[jwcomer]

30. Those in power stay in power

Look, to what extent has the Pope wielded any real power in the Vatican over the last few years? Hardly any. Those who wield the real power in the Vatican would prefer to see the Pope plugged into the wall in a vegetative state for the next decade as well. If he died the someone new would actually take charge of the church. Can't have that now can we.

[hyphenate]

43. Because, unlike his wonderful "flock"

the pope is fully aware that there is no god, no heaven and nothing but the solid ground on which we all currently live. By allowing the Vatican to keep him hooked up for what might possibly be several years, he will be keeping the popeship from some other, perhaps more liberal soul, and thus controlling the entire world of Catholicism for even more years to come. It's basically a control issue, and nothing less. This pope tried for many years before his actual taking on the popeship to get that position, as he was and always will be a politician before he is a holy man.

[candy331]

46. Hyphenate, you make some real solid points there! n/t

[Carolab]

47. No kidding. Whatever happened to "God is calling you home"?

All of these religious leaders/followers are such hypocrites.

[sasquatch]

3. I'd like to hear him do the unplugged version of "Fuck Martin Luther"

:silly:

[Snap]

35. Yaaaaah Lutherans!

Kings of Insurance.

[LibertyorDeath]

5. Does not want to meet his maker.

Well well isn't this a surprise

push comes to shove & worm food time arrives & suddenly
the high and mighty want to cling tenaciously to life.

[bluestateguy]

6. If that's what he wants, fine. It's his will.

That's a private decision that I believe ought not to be interfered with. HOWEVER, as Pope he has a responsibility to his church and hundreds of millions of Catholics around the world. Under those hypothetical circumstances (coma, vegetative state), he should relinquish his papacy.

[Kerrytravelers]

9. My thought is....

and I'll have to ask my husband when he wakes up as he is far more knowledgable on Catholic rule than I am, if the Pope falls into a vegetative state prior to giving up his positionl does the Vatican move ahead with selecting a new Pope? How does this work. (I'm a terrible Catholic and never paid attention to all the rules and traditions like this.)

And really, you'd think this guy, of all people, would be glad to be "getting home to Heaven."

It does seem kind of strange from a Pope, but hey, who am I to judge. I know where my place is, unlike the nutcases running around outside the hospice in Flordia. What the hell is it with Flordia, anyway?

[mom cat]

10. This could drag on a long time with a dutifully suffering pope becoming

even more iconic while the ultra conservative cardinals milk the drama for all that it is worth and entrench their power in the process. The "church" will continue to have leadership...perhaps with some Schivo psychics telling us what the pope is really saying when he inadvertently makes some guttural sound and crazed followers writhe in ecstasy that the second coming is at hand.

[saigon68]

19. Ground Hogs Day is Coming

They can then wheel him out to see if he "Makes a Shadow"

[regnaD kciN]

7. Here's the irony about this...

It has been recognized for some time that the Pope has been heavily influenced by the archconservative Cardinal Ratzinger, although he has certainly not gone as far as the latter has urged the Church to go. (When I mentioned this story to my wife, her first reaction was that Ratzinger must have written that speech.)

Now, for years, Ratzinger has been considered far too traditionalist to become Pope himself. However, in recent months, rumors have been coming out of the Vatican that he, indeed, may be the leading candidate to run a "caretaker" Papacy following JPII's eventual death. Many are highly skeptical of Ratzinger's willingness to do so, since by becoming Pope, he'd be empowered to issue "infallible" ex cathedra pronouncements, essentially setting his far-right positions on birth control, mandatory celibacy, and the male-only priesthood in stone, so that they could not even be changed by later pontiffs.

Now, here's the irony...what if it was indeed Ratzinger who convinced the Pope to issue that statement -- and, because of it, JPII is kept alive artificially for years, until the point where Ratzinger would be too old to be elected Pope? That by pushing for this policy, Ratzinger would have unwittingly prevented himself from being able to make any of the other changes he would want? Talk about a twist of fate...

[mom cat]

11. But, if the pope is kept alive and Ratzinger can issue infallible

proclamations through him, he will have the power to set anything in stone that he desires. I believe that the pope's current "statements are already being heavily scripted, such as in the recent Schivo statements and the speech that you mention in your post. It would not take much for a vegetative utterances to be "interpreted" by Ratzinger et al in what ever way "the spirit moves them". This could get real sick and feed into the hands of the rapture-nuts.

[msanthrope]

13. Actually, a Regency (or papal equivalent) could be just what

the Vatican needs to further erode its moral authority. I imagine a hundred years of debate springing from the questioning of the infallibility of any ex cathedra announcements. It will be easier for the rank-and-file Catholics to disregards what is coming out of the Vatican.

A papal regency would throw the Vatican into turmoil--and that's not a bad thing. Avignon, anybody?

[Journeyman]

8. Good for him. I have a wife and kids and limited insurance. . .

which puts us in totally different situations.

[Ken Burch]

12. The Pope had to ask to be kept going as long as possible

He knew the living will would go public, and he couldn't let himself look like a hypocrite at the end(especially will the Cirque du Schiavo is still playing in Florida.)

[Window]

14. The Pope is old and in ill health.

I doubt he'll be with us much longer, extraordinary means or no. Imagine those that aspire to be Pope and who are in contact with him might try to hurry along his demise, so perhaps this is a safeguard.

[hedgehog]

15. People around him did everything possible to keep Franco

alive to the point that it became a sick joke. Spain leaped forward about 3 centuries shortly after he finally died. Paul IV entered his last days shortly afterwards and did not use extrordinary measures to extend his life. It made quite a statement at the time and was a lot closer to traditional Church teaching than a lot of what you hear today. I suspect many posting here are corrct that the old man in the Vatican is being cruelly manipulated. I just pray to God that he doesn't suffer because of it.

[ima_sinnic]

16. oh that's just effing great. now being kept "alive" is going to be

what ALL the dutiful sheeple want. somehow people seem to think robbing resources and attention from the truly living, the sentient and suffering masses, is their divine right. I can see it now: the hospitals and hospices full of breathing corpses mandated by their "living wills" to be kept "alive" at all costs. watch for "persistent vegetative state" insurance, probably in the works right now. keep the bloated bodies of the well-insured "alive" while the rest of us have to die a pauper's natural death. personally I don't mind that a bit, it's just the sheer idiocy of the whole idea of prolonging life beyond its natural end and preaching that as some kind of virtue, something to be attained, that pisses me off. hey pope--anybody who would want to be maintained in a PVS is a vain dumbass. just my humble opinion.

[davekriss]

31. I am dealing with these issues in a very personal way

My mother has terminal lung cancer which metastized to her brain, causing seizures and respiratory arrest. I arrived to see her heavily sedated and breathing only through the aid of a respirator. A doctor approached us, checked to see if my mother was conscious (she was not), and advised us to end extraordinary care and let her die peacefully. The next day a palliative specialist advised the same, urging us to come to a decision in a day or at most two, as suffering would grow exponentially. The medical opinion was unaminous: Off the respirator, my mother would most likely take a couple of breaths then expire; there was zero percent probability that she'd live more than two days. Or so they told us.

And don't expect, they warned, that off the respirator she'd sit up and suddenly start talking to us, she had the consciousness of an infant they said. We didn't believe this. There were signs of higher cognitive function. She even laughed at my jokes through the fog of her sedation.

My family wrestled over what to do. Though there was no living will, my mother had often told us to not let her struggle for life dependent on artifical means -- "promise you'll pull the plug", she said. Despite her words, we reasoned if she was capable of making the decision now (to pull the plug), if she could be lifted off the sedation in order to mull over her options, then she had the right and deserved the dignity to be given the chance. So we weaned her off from the respirator while slowly reducing her sedation.

The ICU nurses said to us, "if you have anything to say to your mom, nows the time." None thought she'd survive off the respirator. She's off now. She did very well that first night and the ICU call her "Carol the Miracle".

She's still terminal, but since she was breathing well on her own the doctors' then advised palliative radiation on her brain tumors (they don't want to go further on the lungs as there is little healthy tissue left). The idea is life extension with quality. My mom, though, refused the care. Instead we moved her to hospice for nature to take its course.

In hospice, she's actually getting stronger every day. She breathes well, eats, sits up, and even moved to a wheel chair to be wheeled around the lovely grounds of the hospice campus. She says she wants to come home, to die at home with her husband and puppy. We're working on making that happen. Things are going well -- lovely, peaceful, beautiful despite the inevitable end.

During the course of working out what steps to take, we noticed that the hospital seemed to present biased info to us in order (we think) to lead us to pull the respirator with a heavy morphine drip (which would most likely have resulted in the quick death they expected because, while sedated, her reflex to breath on her own would have been muted).

Further, while hospice is 100% paid by Medicare, a nursing home is out of the question. One of the unbiased options we weaned out of the doctors was that my mom could've had a tracheotomy and stay on the respirator in a nursing home (until finally overrun by the cancer). Unfortunately, Medicare pays zero for that, which is strange -- they'll pay 100% if the patient volunteers to die quickly in a hospice, but 0% if the patient wants to fight death to the last gasp in a nursing home. What a choice!

Anyway...

(Imagine how we felt, those of us sitting in the hospice lounge, with the continuous coverage of the media circus known as "Terry Schiavo". Not fun.)

[truthisfreedom]

17. okay, nose-hosed pope. you're too pooped to pope... whose going to pope

in your absence?

i hope to pope you planned this out. not everyone is as into peace as you are, mr. pope.

[HeeBGBz]

18. Why? Is he scared to meet his Maker?

Rather to be a veggie in charge than give up his religious power?

[Hekate]

20. As is his right as a human being

The Pope has the right of self-determination, as do we all. He's a sick old man and his life has not been comfortable for some years now, but as he was presumably of sound mind when he gave that speech, he certainly has the right to say yes or no to extensive procedures.

If he were to lapse into a PVS though, it would create a dilemma for the Church because popes, like Supreme Court Justices, serve for life. Presumably a pope may abdicate or resign, but I don't know if this has happened in recent centuries -- and there has been some concern in Rome that he might become too incapacitated to recognize the need for him to step down, and there's no rule (yet) about replacing a pope while he's still alive. Given the speed at which the Roman Catholic Church makes changes, it should be another couple of centuries before this gets ironed out.

Our modern ability to keep people alive long after they have lost the ability to reason or to communicate has its downside, to say the least.

Hekate

[xchrom]

21. the new mummification.

that's what it reminds me of.

all i ask is that we officially proclaim christianity DEAD.

the conservatives have killed it.
and thus should be now called by a new name.

[DeepModem Mom]

22. kick

[AlCzervik]

23. If thats the Pope's wish and it's in his living will it should be

respected.

[Auntie Bush]

37. Well Yes...But should he have made that decision knowing

the church would be leaderless while he's in this unknowing state?

[booksenkatz]

24. The same people who want total control over YOUR body, somehow

insist upon CHOICE for themselves when it comes to THEIR bodies.

Fucking hypocrites.

I respect anyone who says he/she wants to eke out every smidgen of life from every mitochondrion in his/her body, even after he/she has been dead for years. If he/she wants to be kept alive for 1000 years in such a manner, hey, if you and your descendants can pay for it, do it. At the same time, I expect the SAME respect for MY choices about MY body, whether it's reproductive choice, sexual partner choice, drug choice, diet choice, feeding tube choice, etc. If this fellow refuses to allow me choice for my body, then I vote for pulling the tube on this motherfucker immediately, ok? Choice for all or choice for none. Which is it?

[KittyWampus]

25. For A Religion That Supposedly Lauds The Spirit, Catholic Dogma

sure is obsessed with the Gross Material Body.

The Body ideally is seen as a vehicle for the Spirit.

Why tether the Spirit to a Body that can no longer effectively House the Spirit?

Reincarnation was snuffed out of Christine Doctrine long ago and left a sad, pale imitiation of what was an authentic Spiritual tradition.

[leesa]

26. I have no respect for religious people who are afraid of death

Their faith must be really weak.

[smirkymonkey]

27. I'm with you

Either he's afraid to meet his maker because of how he's lived his life or he simply doesn't really believe there is a "heaven" after all.

His decision makes him look like a fraud.

[saigon68]

41. He'll have to stand in line with the Laity

She (God) I believe will Judge him harshly.

[emad]

28. (It's official, there is no God): Woody Allen said: not only

is there no God, but try getting a plumber on the weekend.....

[napi21]

29. That's his decision and I respect that. After the circus with Terri,

I hope the one thing we've all learned is that we should respect the wishes of each individual patient.

I'm sure there are people, like the Pope, who wish every measure be taken to preserve their life. There are others who do not.

That's the way it should be, and we should respect their wishes wether we agree with them or not.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

32. I thought he had "serenely" accepted the will of God

Sounds like second thoughts to me.......

[tedzbear]

33. I say give the old bigot what he wants...

...and let him stay aware for every horrible minute of it.


:nopity:

[Zenlitened]

34. Well, then what the hell was all this about:

???

Vatican decries 'religion of health'

By Frances D'Emilio, Associated Press Writer | February 17, 2005

VATICAN CITY -- Vatican officials on Thursday held out Pope John Paul II's stoic suffering with Parkinson's disease as an antidote to the mentality that modern medicine must cure all, calling this a "religion of health" that is taking hold in affluent countries.

"While millions of people in the world struggle to survive hunger and disease, lacking even minimal health care, in rich countries the concept of health as well-being figures in creating unrealistic expectations about the possibility of medicine to respond to all needs and desires," said the Rev. Maurizio Faggioni, a theologian and morality expert on the Vatican's Pontifical Academy for Life.

"The medicine of desires, egged on by the health care market, increases the request for pharmaceutical and medical-surgical services, soaks up public resources beyond all reasonableness," Faggioni said.

He spoke at a news conference before a debate to be held at the academy next week on politically hot issues such as the right to life and medical care.

Full article:
http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2005/02/17/vatican_decries_religion_of_health/

[Gloria]

36. In a review of the Dutch papers a couple of days ago on Radio Netherlands,

one piece wondered if the Pope was going to be trotted out as some sort of ghoulish prop for who knows how long??

Which I am also wondering....

[PATRICK]

38. What's going to happen

as Catholics witness his agony and the lousy propaganda trying to gloss it over will be much the same as the death of Pius XII. No one is going to want this kind of nightmare institutionalized in the papacy and instead really get the next guy to retire in these times of crisis.

Heroics and example will go directly counter to the message the present Pope would like to convey for the majority of Catholics. Personally I don't think Jesus had any intention of strictly forcing a successor leader to die holding the keys unless it was martyrdom and would probably look with horror and and disapproval on the hardening of the traditional arteries in the institutional crowd.

[Merlin]

39. This is a useless, bullshit story

Reuters should be ashamed of itself for billing these remarks as "the Pope's living will" and for suggesting that the Pope's current condition (conscious, aware, thinking, communicating) is even remotely similar to Schiavo's.

In addition, once again mainstream media ignores the most critical question: WHO IS PAYING?

The US taxpayers are not paying to keep the Pope alive. They were paying to keep Schiavo alive. The courts had every right to say "enough is enough."

That having been said, our side should support--in the future--the continuation of life support for patients like Schiavo, so long as it is paid for by non-public funds. That is the position we can and should take, and it is errefutable by the right.

[Fleshdancer]

40. if true, he's the ONLY person I've heard say this

Seriously, have you ever actually heard anyone say they would want to survive by machine indefinately? Everyone I've talked to says the complete opposite.

[indepat]

42. Hopefully the Pope would still be able to make the hard decisions

should he progress to a vegatative state while being kept alive by artificial means, clearly the will of God for this generation althought not an option available to previous generations since the dawn of man.

[bluedog]

44. So after all these years....the POPE has NO

faith in God....that there is NO after life?.....then whats all this preaching about.being good..moral.sin free to get into Heaven............oh I am shocked!

[Bridget Burke]

45. There's NO Living Will

Extrapolating that from one speech is taking it too far.

And one speech does NOT indicate change to Catholic doctrine; these things follow established channels.

[devinsgram]

48. I really think this goes to show

he does not have faith in what he believes. He is afraid of dying.

[patcox2]

49. This completely distorts catholic doctrine and living wills.

In all living wills there is a distinction between "heroic measures" (also sometimes called "artificial life support) and ordinary care. Most people decide that they do not want heroic measures, such as being put on a ventilator or having CPR performed in the event of cardiac arrest, if they are seriously ill with no hope of recovery.

All the Pope said is that feeding tubes should not be considered "artificial life support" or a "heroic measure". Nowhere in what the pope said is there any implication that he would want to go on a ventilator or dialysis or that he would want the full code blue treatment if his heart stopped. I doubt very much that he'd do that, because having a vegetative Pope would be very difficult for the church to deal with.

I will say it again, the Pope never said "I don't want artificial life support." What he said is "food and water is not artificial life support." Catholics are free to refuse "life support," just not food and water.

Catholic doctrine has no problem with people refusing "life support." Its just that they do not consider food and water "life support." This is a valid distinction many people make.

This story, and the interpretations of it and conclusions drawn from it by most of you, completely distorts both the pope's personal wishes and the catholic church's teachings.

[leftofthedial]

50. at least according to Mrs. Pope

Pope's parents dispute this claim

[LanternWaste]

51. Possibly, he believes that the life we are presented with

Possibly, he believes that the life we are presented with at birth is one of the greatest gifts given to us and that it is incumbent upon us to attempt every measure to maintain it.

Many Protestants, Catholics, Muslims and Jews believe the same thing. I certainly believe it-- yet I add this... I realize I don't have the moral strength to see it through, so (for now) I take the easy way out and have told my family & lawyer to pull the plug, no heroic measures and a big, fat, red DNR on my patient chart.

I'm certainly not going to second-guess anyone's motives as to why they would want to stay alive, regardless of what my opinion of the quality of life would be.

[NNN0LHI]

52. If this is the case he should be at the hospital and in intensive care now

Something isn't right here.

Don

[Bridget Burke]

53. It is not the case.

The article above makes some logical leaps.

[patcox2]

56. I'd call them deliberate distortions.

See my post below. There's no way this article could have been written in good faith, unless the writer is totally naive and got taken in by the supposed "expert" who is quoted.

[ElectroPrincess]

54. Exactly! That NG (Nasal Gastric) tube is just a quick fix ...

He should NOT be allowed to stay away from the hospital if he TRULY wants *all* measures to be taken to keep him alive. IMO his refusal to go to the hospital stands out as hypocritical behavior. No matter how "well stocked" The Vatican is, it's not a state-of-the-art Hospital.

[patcox2]

55. This story is total bullshit, here's why

The Catholic church position on living wills is clear and, generally, reasonable. Catholics, including the Pope, may, consistent with doctrine, refuse "heroic measures" or "artificial" means of prolonging life. This would include things like respirators or kidney dialysis. I would bet that the Pope has done so.

This article completely distorts this topic; it gives one supposed "experts" opinion that the pope had an oral living will saying he would want all measures taken. It was total bullshit.

This "expert" based his opinion on the fact that the pope recently gave an address in which he explained the church's belief that feeding and hydration should not be included within the definition of "heroic measures" or "artificial life extension" which may be refused or withdrawn. That address was the equivalent to me giving my little lecture right here about catholic doctrine and New Jersey law, it has nothing to do with my personal wishes and certainly could never be considered my "living will." Yet the article posted yesterday found some crackpot expert who opined that the pope had, by giving this address, announced his intention of receiving all life support until the end. Its complete horseshit, the guy clearly has an agenda.

So, there is an easy explanation for why the pope could have a feeding tube but not a respirator. I would guess that the Pope's living will in fact refuses artifical or extraordinary means of prolonging life. But it allows feeding tubes because they are not in his mind considered artificial or extraordinary means.

By the way, New Jersey's statutory form of living will makes the same distinction regarding feeding and hydration, separating them from other "artificial" means of prolonging life and giving a separate option with regard to them. There's nothing medieval or hypocritical about this topic, sorry, and nothing to be hidden.

[ElectroPrincess]

57. self delete

[NNN0LHI]

58. Then why didn't the Vatican say it was all total BS and deny it then?

Don't they read the news at the Vatican?

[Bridget Burke]

60. There's a lot of BS printed about the Church.....

Why should they bother about this bit of trash?

[patcox2]

61. What a brain dead argument that is.

Truly, I don't know why I am responding. Your talking crazy talk, now. Need some reasons? First, public figures don't have time to respond to every moronic story about them, and most often its counterproductive to do so, just gives the false story another airing. But then there is that fact that the guy is dying and maybe his living will is none of our business?

[goclark]

59. Dr. Gupta on CNN just said...

that if the Pope was in an IC Unit at a hospital he would be able to receive assistance of a more technical nature ( that is not the exact quote.)

I took from that that the Pope wished to die peacefully in his home at the Vatican than in a hospital.

My question would be,"s it in his best interest to prolong his life by being at home or in a hospital?"