Bible elective weighed at West Texas high schools

[Rose Siding]

ODESSA — A West Texas school board will at least consider the possibility of the district offering a Bible-based class as an elective in the high schools.

A packed audience gave a standing ovation Tuesday after the Ector County school board heard a presentation from a man representing the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools on offering such a class.
....
Johnson said the coursework would include the Bible's impact on America's founding fathers, students' understanding of geography of the Middle Eastern countries and the influence of the Bible in art and culture.
....
Board member Bill Rutherford has said he is reluctant for the district to offer a Bible-based elective. "I'll have to do more research," Rutherford said.

Raymond Starnes, assistant superintendent for instruction, already has had two school district curriculum specialists looking into the Bible-class coursework.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3109384

[AValdoux]

1. Same school in Friday Night Lights

The High school Football movie is about this school district. The movie doesn't talk about the racism as much as the book. The book is interesting because it talks more about the politics and financial hard times of the area, oil bust, etc.


AValdoux

[Zenlitened]

2. Why offer this in school. Isn't that what churches are for?

"Oh but it's an elective! It's not a case of 'shoving religion down anyone's throat'! "

That's true. It's more like a feeding tube.

[KittyWampus]

18. Wouldn't A Cross Cultural Examination Of Various Religions Be Great

though?

[renaissanceguy]

20. OH but that would be endorsing them..

can't have that. after all, we're a christian nation. and anyone who says they're not a christian really wants to be one, they just don't know it yet.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.14741193

[Danmel]

24. you know what? it is a Christian nation, at least in population

That's why this Jew lives in NY with most of the other Jews. Gotta stay where you can live.

[Zenlitened]

25. Yikes! I hope it was an oversight that you left out...

... the non-denominational sarcasm smilie: :sarcasm:

(edit spelling)

[Zenlitened]

22. Depends on how the course is set up, I suppose.

And frankly, I'd prefer to see that the science labs are up-to-date first, athletics programs are fully funded, etc etc.

I'm frankly suspicious of any effort to put religion in the curriculum of public secondary schools. The people behind these efforts, by and large, are wolves poorly disguised in sheeps' clothing.

[mutus_frutex]

34. Read one of my messages below.

If it is a serious historical study of belief and lack of belief, then I have no problem. But I doubt the believers would want to have their beliefs rationally analyzed. They are scared to death of that kind of thing.

[UncleSepp]

3. Sounds like an interesting class

The guy's got a point. It's hard to teach Western Civ without teaching about the Bible and Christianity. If the people in the district want the class, that seems pretty cool to me that they can get it.

[Toots]

10. Why is it hard? None of our forefathers were for the propagation of relig

They wanted a country free from the intimidation of religion especially christianity. It sounds like nothing more than a propaganda course. They will teach of the bible's influence on our countries leaders. I wonder if they will mention America's very first foreign treaty which is the supreme law of the land.

[UncleSepp]

56. How is it propagandistic?

I'm usually pretty good at sniffing out propaganda. I'm curious what you see as being propagandistic. Is it because they will teach that the Bible and Christianity had influence on Western civilization, and also on our forefathers?

[mutus_frutex]

36. For this to work, it would have to be taught by a very open-minded person

Otherwise it would be biased. And it should not be restricted to the bible, it should include all forms of religious belief and their critique.

[sandnsea]

40. Western Civ includes religion

At least it did in my kids' classes. I kind of don't think there's anything unconstitutional about a separate electve Bible class. I also think it won't be very popular, except for parents forcing kids to take it.

[teenagebambam]

4. I don't...

....really see a problem. I took an elective Bible Lit. class in public High School, and a non-elective variation in college. Both classes led me to take the Bible LESS literally - could be just what many conservative-raised children need.

[annabanana]

5. Will they also offer

Koranic Studies 101? How's bout the Vedic Scrolls? The Torah and Modern Life?

no no no
This is not acceptable unless it is a study of the LITERATURE of the Bible, or as part of a Comparative Religions course.

[me b zola]

48. I agree with you 100%

A comparative religion course,yes, but these people are not interested in seeing the world with broad vision. This is just another example of the religious right forcing a culture war on the country.

[Walt Starr]

6. An elective Bible course is fine

Let's have an elective Koran course and an elective Bhagavad Gita course, too!

[Mari333]

7. How about a class on MYTHOLOGY and all world religions

[slackmaster]

13. My ex-wife took a World Religions elective when she was in high school

That was in North Carolina in the early 1970s. She kept the text. It was a lot more engaging than the book from her assembly language programming class.

[Briar]

8. UK schools have a statutory obligation to teach RE

and to start each day with an act of worship.

Result? A healthily secular society...

[reprobate]

23. Please don't compare the UK to the USA.

One is a healthy society, caring for each other. The other is a sick, insane society, killing each other.

[Roland99]

9. As long as it's elective and doesn't use the Bible to preach but, rather,

to study the Bible as an historic document and how believers of it have influenced society since it was written, I have no problem with it.

[EBK]

11. Scary ....

We are planning on moving to Texas this summer(Cali housing market out of control!) and I have a child starting high school next year.

Just as long as they don`t allow this Bible course in place of required science classes.

Things that make you go Hmmmm.....

[Bridget Burke]

14. Are you moving to Odessa?

Probably not. I'll bet you're heading to a larger city.

Please--don't buy immediately after getting to Texas. Your co-workers may promote suburban madness when there are other options. Check out different neighborhoods before you commit yourself.

[EBK]

16. initially going to Burkburnet (sp?)

But I would like to settle around San Antonio - closer to Canyon Lake

[CarlWoodward]

55. Texas can be a great place to live

as long as you stay out of the rural areas and most of the suburbs as well. The actual CITIES in Texas actually have some pretty sane residents. Fort Worth, where I live, has a liberal Democrat a the mayor, as does Dallas. John Kerry carried the cities of Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston, Austin and (I think?) San Antonio.

In my Fort Worth neighborhood (a restored historic district just south of downtown) Kerry signs outnumbered Bush signs easily 10-1.

Most of the crazy Texas fundies are in outlying areas like, well, Odessa. Unfortunately there's a helluva lot of them out there.

[slackmaster]

12. As long as it remains an elective I don't see a problem with it

Most Texans are Christians. Why not allow schools to offer an objective study of the core mythology of their own religion?

[mutus_frutex]

37. The fact that they are a majority doesn't mean squat.

That's why you have a bill of rights, I think?

[slackmaster]

46. It was just an aside comment

I think studying Native American religions from an objective POV would be just as valuable as a bible study class.

[mutus_frutex]

47. OK..

And I agree, the more you learn about everything, the more open your mind is.

[Igel]

15. Sounds like they're not preaching or teaching the Bible, per se:

Sounds like they want to examine the impact it had on Western Civ.

Go for it. A Dostoyevsky scholar I studied with barely knew the Bible, and complained that most kids knew it even less. You don't know the Bible, you miss many, many references to it in Dostoyevsky. The "scholar" overlooked quite a few, himself.

When you have 1000 years of (high) culture steeped in the text of a single book, you can't expunge references to that book from studying that culture. On the other hand, you can flip it around and show how that book can serve to unify one's understanding of that culture, and show how varying interpretations of that book were employed.

Edited to add: It would be interesting to have parallel Qur'an and Rigvedga classes. They can look at the influence of the Qur'an on English Baroque Music, and how the Rigvedga influenced the language of the Declaration of Independence.

[Bridget Burke]

17. Check out the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools

www.bibleinschools.net/sdm.asp

They have a sane facade, but are part of the movement to shove their own version of religion into public schools. The Links page is especially enlightening--Wallbuilders, Creationism, the whole ugly gang.

I happen to agree that myth, legend & comparative religion are fascinating studies. That's not what these guys are pushing. What happens if a Catholic student wants to discuss different versions & interpretations of the Bible? What if someone wants to discuss it in the context of the spiritual makeup of the early Roman Empire? What if someone asks any question implying that the Bible is NOT the True Word of God?

Edited to add a quotation from the "Founding Fathers" page: "The Bible was the foundation & blueprint for our Constitution, Declaration of Independence, our educational system, and our entire history until the last 20 to 30 years."

[Zenlitened]

19. That's exactly the issue here. These people are not about...

... one elective class in school. This is just a foot in the door, like anything else the religionists do.

[TX-RAT]

26. That foot was already there.

They had bible classes in high school in the early 80's

[Beetwasher]

21. I Actually Don't Have A Major Problem With This ALTHOUGH

I suspect that the school would never have an elective class on the Koran.

An elective comparative religion class would probably be a lot more educational though.

[MrTriumph]

27. Another reason to oppose Robin Hood

As someone who lives in a district that gives up funds to support poorer districts (with generous ag. exemptions you can bet this west Texas district is property tax poor) my tax dollars may go to support classes I have absolutely say in, whether I support these bibles classes or not. I do not cast a vote for any member of that west Texas school board yet local control gives these school board members plenty of latitude.

Just another reason to kill Robin Hood.

[Bridget Burke]

43. Are you from Arlington?

"City of a thousand cul-de-sacs" according to Larry McMurtrey.

[MrTriumph]

59. No. HEB

HEB (Hurst Euless Bedford) school district. We are taxed the maximum school tax rate allowed by state law so that we can give our kids good schools and also contribute, as ordained by Robin Hood, to other school districts around the state that we have NO direct control over.

[mbperrin]

45. Actually,Ector County has nearly no ag business.

That would be Seminole, Hockley and others north of us. We own the Permian Basin oilfield, where production peaked in 1972.Population kept growing, though, so we do receive Robin Hood funding.

As long as someone favors higher quality education for some children over others based on the (I suppose) God-ordained distribution of random geologic elements (or the large headquarters buildings and related jobs erected on those proceeds, even though miles from the original source), then sure,do away with Robin Hood.

This area has 3/4 the average income of the rest of Texas, 1/2 the real estate value, and I believe that our children are in need of education as much as any others.

Yes, I do teach at the other high school here in town and was raised here. Odessa High is 68% Hispanic, 86% free-lunch qualified, and 96 years old.

[MrTriumph]

58. No ag. in Ector? Ector agricultural info. follows

Thanks for being honest to say Ector county is a net receiver of support for it's school system.

FWIW, the Texas Handbook Online has this to say about Ector agriculture:

"By 1982 the average annual income from agriculture in Ector County was $4.5 million, from beef cattle, poultry, pecans, and hay. According to the agricultural census the 214 farms and ranches in the county that year produced an income of $4.5 million; 1,752 farm acres were under irrigation. Although scanty rainfall and lack of irrigation continue to hinder agriculture in the area, Ector County reported 11,616 cattle in 1982, and 26,331 pounds of pecans were produced in the county that year (see PECAN INDUSTRY)."


I might note that the acre per cattle ratio for cattle in Ector is high compared to wetter areas like Johnson County in north Texas where one acre will support 2 cows. Given that you acres per cow is considerably higher, Ector County has many acres receiving the ag. exemption.

I wish I had more up to date info. And it would be curious to know how much of the land used for wells also runs livestock to keep the property taxes low. It is common in north Texas for oil companies and land developers to do this and I suspect it is common in Ector County.

Your comment about education is obviously heartfelt. You might note the Texas Constitution says each child should get an adequate education. It does not say 'equal'.

When seeking company relocations areas have used the excellence of their schools systems against those perceived as inferior. That is nothing new. And your comment about "God-ordained distribution of random geologic elements (or the large headquarters buildings and related jobs erected on those proceeds)" is ridiculous. Many communities have created, at the expense of local taxpayers, development committees and these committees work hard to secure new business. New business isn't secured by accident or the will of God.

Finally, your comment "I believe that our children are in need of education as much as any others" is true. One might reply that you have chosen to live Ector County and as such have chosen that county for all it's amenities or lack thereof but I wouldn't want to say something that harsh.

[westcor]

28. Seperation of church and state

I think recently the defenition of seperation means to join things together. If you want church classes go to private school, I know I did. I understand its just an elective, but if this happens who knows what will happen with the whole seperation of church and state...

[westcor]

29. They should

offer a class on atheism, I think that would only be fair. Im already signed up for the buddah class, Im looking forward to tripping on shrooms and looking at my "higher self"...

[LibDemAlways]

30. If taught as part of a history curriculum,

I have no problem with it. My 6th grader this year (in CA) is studying early civilization and has been introduced to Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, along with Judaism, and the roots of Christianity -- all from an historical perspective. As long as there is no attempt to teach any one way as "the right way" I'm fine with it.

If I sensed any indoctrination going on, however, I'd be in front of the school board screaming bloody murder. Wouldn't happen around here though. This area is quite culturally diverse and the people wouldn't stand for it.

[fleabert]

31. Isn't there already a bible elective? It's called CHURCH.

on edit: now a general religion elective, that I could handle. Equal time to all. without bias or spin of course.

[leftofthedial]

32. fucking delusional wack jobs

I think we should also teach everyone ow to worship Lik the Fire God and how to shrink heads

[nine30]

41. Turning schools into Christian Madrasas..

..The very things we (rightfully) accuse the Islamic/terrorst nations of doing..preaching hatred in relegious schools, we will now begin to do in our own.

No mistake here..what will first begin as Bible study will moprph into sugar coated(and later uncoated) hatred toward liberals and liberalism.

[mutus_frutex]

33. One wonders: Are churches in Texas so bad that can't take charge of this?

As an atheists, this is my opinion on this case: To be acceptable it should be a class on history of religious belief, not a bible class. It should include the full spectrum of belief and lack thereof.

Otherwise it should be done without the use (direct or indirect) of taxpayers money (this rules out the payment of teachers, the use of school facilities and school time.

Cheers.

[barbaraann]

35. Yes!

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

[anarchy1999]

38. Could we just bring back a real Civics class along with Required PE

everyday? PE stands for Physical Education, as in running a mile.

[anarchy1999]

39. TEXAS AGAIN! We've got to get out of here. I can't stand it anymore!

n/t

[Ezlivin]

42. Sure. I'll teach the class - I'm a seminary graduate

I graduated with a Masters in 1993 from a conservative Southern Baptist seminary.

I'd be glad to teach the class. Heck, I'm already in Texas, too.

Oh, just one thing: I'm an atheist.

Think that'll hurt my chances at getting the job?

[VegasWolf]

44. Great idea, a closer look at the Holy Babble should generate even

more atheists.

[GiovanniC]

49. Here's an Idea

Teach about the founding fathers and their influences in an American History class.

Teach about Middle Eastern geography in a Geography class.

Teach about art and history in a Humanities class.

There is no need for a special Bible class in a public school, and if these people have such a big hard-on for a Bible class, they ought to talk to their church about putting one together or enroll their kids in private school.

[unhappycamper]

50. I'll bet the resumes these kids turn out will be amusing

* Took first place in the Name that Psalmathon in 2006
* Majored in Luke 2:14
* Extracurricular activities in Genesis

All useful stuff, I'm sure.

[bicentennial_baby]

51. We had several Xtianity electives at my hs

Private hs, that is.

But then, we also had, Asian Religion, Religions of the Middle East, etc.

Btw, my Xtianity electives were "The Bible in Music,Art,and Literature" and "Women in the Bible"... Both very interesting classes for my agnostic ass :P

[patcox2]

52. We had a similar course at my high school.

It completely failed to turn me into a brainwashed blob. I don't think it would have even if I'd taken it. Nor did the rest of the camel follow the nose into the tent, if you know what I mean. Its 25 years later, and my high school still hasn't turned into a christian madrassa, either.

[mbperrin]

53. This course was offered here in 1979. The man who taught it is on

the school board now, and he is the one who voted not to have it. Parental complaints killed the first course - too many disagreements over which Bible translation to use.

Odessa - 200 churches, 200 bars, average educational level: 50% adults over 21 have a high school diploma.

New book out on Odessa: Washed in the Blood; the story of the kiss and kill murder - give you something besides Friday Night Lights to look at. Also home to Johnny Meadows and Michael Eugene Sharp - local serial killers.

There's no place like home!

[manly]

54. bible studies

why not offer a course on the world's major religions, not just the bible.that seems a reasonable idea.

[Whoa_Nelly]

57. And just how much will this elective weigh?

If it's more than two pounds, I think the whole idea should be ditched. Would add too much more weight to the kids' backpacks.
:sarcasm: