U.S. army deserter denied refugee status in Canada

[bluestateguy]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/03/24/hinzman-050324.html

TORONTO - An immigration panel in Toronto has denied refugee status to a former paratrooper who fled the United States to evade the war in Iraq.

Jeremy Hinzman is seen as a deserter by the American military, but his supporters say he is a war resister who should be given refugee status in Canada.

Hinzman enlisted in the U.S. army three years ago as a paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne Division. He deserted last year, rather than go to Iraq, and moved to Canada with his wife and small child.

cut

Hinzman is now considering an appeal of the decision, House said.

cont.

[sasquatch]

1. He should try Iceland next

They just took in Bobby Fischer, so I think they'll take in Hinzman.

[glitch]

2. I am beginning to think Canada might be too close. Kind of like Austria

circa 1938.
Heads up (and no offense) to Canadians, but your country is changing too.

[Freddie Stubbs]

12. Perhaps the ruling was based on law rather than politics

:shrug:

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[glitch]

26. Yea - what's politics got to do with the law?

Especially in determining refugee status?

:shrug:

Edit: see post #19 - it's all about politics.

[Megahurtz]

30. Lol!

:D

[primavera]

3. Canada's in a tough spot on this

I'm sure they sympathize, but there is a legal definition for "refugee" and applying it to desertion would be one hell of a stretch - and would set one hell of a precendent too if they had gone for it. Draft dodging I think would be different, as the person fleeing the draft would never have voluntarily joined the military. But if you join the military of your own free will and then don't happen to like what it calls upon you to do, I don't know, it just seems like it would be very hard to build a case that you were being persecuted for something over which you had no control yourself to prevent.

[IA_Seth]

4. Maybe I am crazy...

Three years ago? That would have been 2002!

If the fella couldn't see that he would be going to war as a paratrooper in 2002 when he enlisted he wasn't paying attention.

[mseltzer]

5. He actually enlisted

on January 17, 2001, according to this article:

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0414,solomon,52445,1.html

although I don't see that the date of enlistment is relevant to the legal questions.

[ElectroPrincess]

14. Yes, who would have guessed that our Executive Branch could

morph into a group of war mongers? I could not have predicted it in my wildest dreams. I'm still figuratively pinching myself to make sure I'm awake.

I understand why many soldiers who enlisted before 9-11 are "in shock."

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AndyTiedye]

7. If Deported, He Could Face the Death Penalty for Desertion

Unlikely they would actually execute him, but would that possibility
prevent Canada from deporting him?

[Spazito]

9. Yes, I believe it would, Canada would insist that the death penalty

be taken off the table before deporting him. I suspect that it is not going to be an issue, though, in reality. Prison time will be the result instead.

[BiggJawn]

11. Unlikely?

Oh, don't forget, Rumsferatu expects mindless loyalty, and extracts a heavy toll from those found wanting....

[adwon]

17. Hahahaha

Rumsferatu! I love it!

[Spazito]

8. If there were a declared draft, the issue would be

looked at differently especially if he were a 'draft dodger' or 'war resister' in the true sense.

Given that he voluntarily enlisted, served part of his time and then decided not to continue, his case raises different issues than those who came to Canada during the Vietnam war.

(My sympathies are with him and his family because Iraq is an illegal, imo, immoral invasion/occupation but I can see why the panel ruled as they did in this case.)

[Lisa]

10. if it were up to me (and many other Canadians) he could stay ...

Unfortunately, I'm not Prime Minister.

But I wish that the Immigration people would "accidentally" lose him during the deportation process. (I suspect that he's too principled to just slip away, though.)

[Dragonfly]

35. You and other Canadian allies

might actually be in a better position than the PM to help him as related matters continue to heat up down here.

I was (and still am) so grateful to Torontonian political kin who helped me get started in such a welcoming manner in '74.

The appeal of this case will garner more illuminating support in both the U.S.and Canada, I think.

My faith in the near-future visibility of strengthened ties with our clear-visioned northern neighbors is sound and envisions unique quality collaboration.

Thanks for speaking up for a military member whose consciousness evolved into directly ending his participation in this awful war.

[IndianaGreen]

13. This is really bad! Canada could deny entry to US draft resisters

I guess Mexico is still a possibility!

[Lisa]

15. imposing a draft would actually give Canada more leverage

In the Vietnam era, so many Americans were affected by the draft that Canadian sympathizers were able to exert a lot of pressure on our government.

The Liberals were uncertain about what to do (fearing how the US would react) -- but then, as now, they were in a minority government situation. The NDP, on the left, were needed to keep the government in power -- and not only were they able to encourage the Liberals to let the draft resisters in (or they'd threaten to withdraw support and cause an early election) -- but the Liberals could now turn to the US and say, "the NDP are forcing us to do this, and we'll be out of power if we go against them". Also, Canada's religious left (like the United Church, the largest Protestant denomination in the country) sided with the anti-war people. I've heard that the letter-writing campaign organized by the churches and the NDP made a tremendous impact on the government of the day.

The NDP and the United Church have both lost some strength since that time (the NDP doesn't have as many seats, and not as many Canadians are going to church as before). But it's not out of the question that the same situation could occur. People are more likely to speak up these days, and one hears even politicians, lawyers, and other professionals criticizing Bush's militarism. The anti-war side is older, more "mainstream", and has more money this time around ....

[Spazito]

16. I agree, an involuntary draft is very different from a voluntary

enlistment question. Draft dodgers, to use the common albeit pejorative term, would be avoiding serving at all based on the same premises, I assume, as those used during the Vietnam 'war' as opposed to the question before the panel today, that of someone who voluntarily signed on.

If the US were to re-institute the draft, I have no doubt this would become a big issue in Parliament as many, if not the majority, of Canadians would have sympathy and put pressure on the government to allow those who make it across the border to be allowed to stay as was done in the Vietnam era.

[Zan_of_Texas]

18. Canada surely benefited greatly during Vietnam, by getting some of

our finest young men.

Too bad their court hasn't seen fit to give refuge to this fellow.

The other aspect of serving in the US "voluntarily" is that even after you do your tour of duty, they can tack on many months, including in Iraq, regardless of what your agreement was.

They are also serving up some either-or choices for those already in -- re-enlist for X number of months, or be sent immediately to Iraq.

Some of these kids signed letters of intent at age 16 or 17. Think how smart you were then! Hopefully, your political analysis has gotten more sophisticated and informed since then (assuming some of you are older than 16 or 17).

Anyway, when the US puts little microchip computer memories on each US drivers license, I suppose it can track anyone with one anywhere in the US, Canada, or Mexico. And, Canada has already agreed to depost US draft dodgers, if there is a draft, IIRC.

[Lisa]

25. and demographics are on our side now ...

Canada's birth rate has dropped considerably since the 1960s. We now rely on immigration to maintain our population (and we aren't even meeting immmigration quotas these days, so the number of Canadians, now about 32 million, is projected to start dropping before 2020 as the boomers begin to die off).

And here, practically falling into our laps, is a source of healthy young people who've already been raised and schooled. (Governments spend the most on the very young and the very old -- once people are in their teens, they can start working, and paying for some of their own education.)

It's not just the young men -- I know several women who were born in the States but became citizens after moving up here with their boyfriends (or just left because they were disillusioned with the war, the slow progress of civil rights, Nixon, etc.).

My doctor and several of my teachers and professors are US expatriates from that era. In terms of the expertise and tax revenue, Canada did very well out of the whole deal!

[saskatoon]

31. Refuge to this fellow

I'm sorry I'm not clued into the different steps in this but If he went in before Bush decided to invade Iraq and he didn't beleive in that phoney excuse to go to war when that came about, then isn't that the major factor to take in this case. Grace

[Media_Lies_Daily]

19. An agreement was signed between the US and Canada sometime ago.....

...that requires Canada to return all US servicemen that are seeking asylum. Additionally, all other countries used by US servicemen to escape the Vietnam War have also signed the same agreement.

The door is closed to any US servicemen trying to feel the country using their own names and trying to stay above board. That path is now going to require a great deal of planning in addition to the use of assumed names/forged documents.

[Freddie Stubbs]

29. So you're saying that Canada signed a treaty?

Treaties have the force of law. So they are simply obeying the law.

[Maple]

34. There Is No Such Treaty!

I don't know where this rumour comes from...but there is no such treaty. Between Canada and the US...or the US and anywhere

The only one Canada signed having to do with people was about 'terrorists'...NOT US servicepeople as war resisters.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

22. Kinda tipped your hand a little early, didn't you? You must be one....

...of those 40 new posters we were talking about in another thread.

You know...the Patricia Heaton Fan Club.

[Spazito]

23. LOL

*snarf*


:toast:

[rainbow4321]

24. Take a look at these desertion numbers

http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories.asp?whichpage=1&id=80077

The US military says a Green Country soldier is a "deserter" for failing to return to Iraq after a two-week leave. She says she was willing to return to duty, after she took care of some personal issues.

The US military takes desertion very seriously. The number of deserters has gone up from about 1,500 in 1995, to more than 5,500 since the war in Iraq began. During wartime, the punishment for desertion ranges from reprimand, to death. "I don't have the strength or the nerve to fight anymore." Staff Sgt Theresa Russell deployed with the 172nd Corps Support Group to Iraq in January of last year.

She loved her job, but received news in October that her daughter's father had passed away back in Oklahoma. "I freaked out and cried. That was on the 4th of October. I finally got a release on the 8th of October. My daughter was on the streets for four days until I got back to the states."

While she was home, medical records show, Russell saw a doctor for a problem she'd had in Iraq. A problem she says requires surgery she couldn't get over there. "Where I was at in Balad, Iraq it was more like a band-aid hospital unless you got hit with shrapnel, then they sent you to Lanstuhl, but they didn't have the facilities." Russell showed us the flurry of e-mails she sent to her superior officer in Iraq, requesting more time, to get her children, and her health, in order. "And on the 24th of October, that afternoon, I received an email from my commander that he didn't approve my emergency leave, extension, which I needed to return back to the airport on the 23rd. And this was a day later. Even though I was sick I was still wanting to go back, I mean that was my job. I enjoyed my duties."

[Tippy]

27. Wonder if Canada's decision

Had anything to do with the Summit...

[bpilgrim]

28. guess the underground railroad will be coming back

i'm sure they had a perfectly good agreement with the US that explains why seeking refuge from an ILLEGAL WAR is no longer allowed in canada :shrug;

peace

[Spazito]

32. This is only step #1, he will appeal,

sometimes this can drag on for years. Our immigration processes are notoriously slow and, in this case, that is a good thing.

[shadowlight]

33. Having read the article

i can understand the decision.
But, make no mistake. If there ever is a draft in the US, I, along with what I'm sure will be a majority of Canadians, will make sure that conscientious objectioners are allowed to stay in Canada.

[Zan_of_Texas]

36. As I understand some of the proposed draft legislation....

the proposal would be to include both men and women. AND, that conscientious objectors would have to go through MILITARY TRAINING like everyone else before they could go to a different, non-combat sort of service.

The more likely sort of draft, at least at first, because of political realities, that's being talked about is drafting certain people with specific skills that the military wants -- language skills, computer skills, medical skills.

[maddezmom]

37. kick to combine

[seriousstan]

38. Canada Denies Refugee Status to American

TORONTO (AP) - A U.S. Army paratrooper who fled to Canada to avoid serving in Iraq was denied political asylum Thursday, dealing a blow to other deserters here who argue such duty would force them to commit atrocities against civilians.

An immigration board ruled that Jeremy Hinzman had not convinced its members he would face persecution or cruel and unusual punishment if returned to the United States.

Seven other American military personnel have applied for refugee status, and Hinzman's lawyer estimated dozens of others are in hiding in Canada waiting to see how the government ruled. The attorney, Jeffry House, said Hinzman would appeal the ruling.

House said at a news conference that the Immigration and Refugee Board had not allowed him to argue that the war in Iraq is illegal and would make that complaint before a federal appeals court.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050325/D891NERG0.html

[shadowknows69]

39. please help us Canada

We don't all want to be the cannon fodder the Government would have us be for their own ends.

[lenidog]

40. I guess he found out that there is a big difference

in being a conscientious objector avoiding a draft and a volunteer who became a deserter.

[alwynsw]

41. As I stated in another thread on this subject

He volunteered. No one twisted his arm of otherwise forced him to join.

Do you think that, just maybe, if you're in the military you may be ordered to do things that are distasteful?

Legality or morality of the war aside, you stick up your hand, say "I swear or affirm" and sign the contract, you're in for the duration of your hitch - and whatever duties you may be assigned.

The military isn't Blockbuster. Quitting because you disagree with your orders is not an option.

[Kinkistyle]

42. Guess thats why recruitment is so low now.

Hinzman volunteered before 9/11 when the military was being marketed as a free pass to college and Boy Scouts for grownups. I guess reality has hit home. People are wising up. Now if the military wants people, they are gonna hafta draft. Nice.

[alwynsw]

44. True about the marketing, but

if you're old enough to join, you should be old enough to recognize the risks. Bosnia, Somalia, Haiti, Gulf War, etc. are al recent enough that someone enlisting in 2000 should have realized that there is an inherent risk in being in the military.

[Kinkistyle]

46. yeah, its PARTIALLY his fault.

But lets face it. When people join the military, they envision themselves being "Real American Heroes". Fighting for freedom, liberty and democracy and all that and doing good in the world. Like defending ones own country in the event of an attack, or as in Bosnia, Somalia and Haiti, defending oppressed people, or or even the Gulf War - in order to drive out a hostile invader.

Yeah, you take an oath to follow orders in when you volunteer. But that doesn't mean you now have to throw away all your morals and beliefs - I believe that is called indoctrination and brainwashing.

[lenidog]

48. They were doing the same thing when I signed up

I ended up fighting Saddam the first time. When you join the military you have to have some expectation that you are going to go to war. Now you are right the recruiters gloss over that but if you have a brain in your head you have to expect it.

[lenidog]

43. I am the exact same way

No held a gun to his head when he enlisted. Hey, I enlisted never thought I would end up in combat but I did,(First Gulf War) end of story. If you don't want to face such a thing then don't enlist I have to agree with the one man in the article sounds rather funny that he doesn't want to go to a combat zone because its an illegal war (that a different discussion)and be forced to commit war crimes but he would still serve in said military. If there was a draft and he headed up there I would say more power to him and I hope he wins but I served and just consider him nothing more than a deserter and not a refugee. If he felt so strong about it then he should have told them that there was no way in hell he was going and accepted his time in the stockade.

[alwynsw]

45. Good comment.

BTW I enlisted in '74

edited to add: He was a paratroop at that! That meas he volunteered twice. Jump school is a competitive entry entity. He not only volunteered twice, but competed to be on the pointy end of the sword.

[lenidog]

47. Can I say duh!!

It didn't even register in my brain that he was a para. I read it but the brain didn't make the connection you did. You are exactly right. I enlisted in 89 right out of HS. I was 19-Kilo (M-1 crewman). Figure I would grow up a little, make some money for college, see the world. Got settled in Germany and the next thing I know Saddam invades Kuwait and I am sitting in the Saudi desert. Was I happy about it? No! Did I expect it? No! Was I scared to death? Yes! But I signed on the dotted line, swore and oath and had my duty to perform. So I did it. End of story.

[GHOSTDANCER]

49. Many recruits are too young to make a rational decisions when joining.

They don't understand enough history nor grasp current events. Years of hollywood military and cowboy blockbusters, video games and poor news sources don't help. This isn't even going into the poor minorities issue which in itself is huge.

Everyone should be allowed to change their mind. It isn't fair to persecute anyone for making a wiser decision.

[lenidog]

50. You have a very good point there

The pop culture which is the point of reference for most American does not in any way prepare you for life in the military or for actually going to war when you get there. As for the minorities you will find that many in the military are still poor but mostly whites from the south and the mid-west. Actually if recall a study done independent of the military, blacks make up less of the military than they do the general population and mostly gravitate towards rear echelon MOSs like computers or mechanics.

[Lisa]

55. plus, recruiters lie ...

They tell the kids all kinds of things to get them to sign up. They promised cash bonuses, which -- at least in some cases -- were never paid (told to me by one of the Americans seeking refuge).

[alwynsw]

58. So. IF an 18 yr old can't make a rational decision

does that mean that you feel that the voting age should be raised?

[GHOSTDANCER]

60. This song comes to mind

Voting doesn't work 1-2-3
It's time you know your enemy
I won't pledge allegiance to hypocrisy
Your democracy, is not for me
So, when we try to change this place
Courtroom pulls an about face
Fantasies of the master race
Our elections they erase
See once upon a time we were all free
When we lived in tribal societies
Peace and harmony
And everything for the good of family
Yeah, cancer people can smoke weed
People voted to be free
But the fascist rule decree
Pigs arresting you and me
Voting doesn't work
Why?
When they don't like what we say then they stop it in the courts.
President this, president that
Represent the ruling class
One says this, one says that
Sounds the same what choice is that
See voting doesn't work 1-2-3
Coming from the NATION OF THE CHEROKEE
How can you choose when you don't have a choice?
How can you choose when you don't have a voice?
Yeah, interest games, their interest rates
Secret power fueled by hate
Fear for cash, cash for fear
Greenspan is the ruler here
Yeah, a pig is a pig
And they took it away
And I don't give a fuck about the things they say
It don't mean shit to me
Voting doesn't work, it's easy to see, that
Voting doesn't work
Why?
When they don't like what we say then they stop it in the courts
Voting doesn't work, I have seen
Along with piles of broken treaties
Your reality produces poverty, spiritually
In a nation of greed.
Well who is working, who is not
Think votes count, well I think not
Doesn't matter what we say
Things will always go their way
Power to the people is just a fantasy
And they sell it to us as an American dream
Well, your vote counts 1-2-3
Living in democracy
Everybody here is free
Cuz it's built for you and it's built for me.
Voting doesn't work
Why?
When they don't like what we say then they stop it in the courts

-Voting Doesn't Work/Corporate Avenger

[moondust]

54. Nobody joins to die in the private war of a madman.

If he joined AFTER Bush assumed office then I have little sympathy. But anybody who joined before then could reasonably expect the U.S. to come up with sane leadership at least and should not be forced to engage in illegal activities for anybody.

[Voltaire99]

51. The "volunteer" army

SUV America uses the poor as human shields to protect their children from service in America's military adventures.

Afraid of spoiling a good thing they put no pressure upon their war-collaborator politicians, even running in the last election one who promised to fight, fight, fight in Iraq. With, of course, more "volunteers."

In the latest Gallup poll 51% say "it was not a mistake to send troops." And 47% still support the war.

A draft will change that very, very quickly. Hmm....

[Pachamama]

52. Huh? I'm confused-didn't just a few months ago Prime Minister Paul Martin

say that Canada wouldn't refuse or turn away anyone from the US seeking refuge in Canada from serving in the Iraq war....did I misunderstand and get that wrong at the time? :shrug:

WTF? :shrug:

Is this what we can expect from Canada now?? They will deny our citizens who speak out against our Govt' asylum in their country? Guess my plans for becoming Canadian might be changing....

[Spazito]

57. He will appeal, this is only the first step

but there is a difference, he is not a draft dodger as there is no draft. He volunteered to serve, served for a time and then decided to avoid service. This is very different from those who came to Canada during the Vietnam war to avoid being forced involuntarily to fight a 'war'.

His position is that Iraq is an illegal 'war' and he will take that position to his appeal. Some appeals can take years before final deportation takes place if they lose.

My sympathies are with this young man and his family as well as the others here as well.

If there is a draft put in place, I think Canadians will put a lot of pressure on our government to act as we did during Vietnam because it is forced service not voluntary service.

[Pachamama]

59. I'm just surprised...I thought for sure he would be granted this asylum...

Yes, I too feel for him and his family....I bet he is very frightened right now...

I guess I misunderstood Prime Minister Martin's previous comments...I didnt' realize an actual "draft" needed to be in place in the US, I thought it meant anyone who was a consientious objector, including current soldiers.

:hi: Spazito! We are in the process of purchasing our property in BC! That's another reason this "news" concerned me....

[Pachamama]

53. Note to Jeremy & all others in his situation: Go to ICELAND!

Seriously....start looking at Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden....they will welcome you....get out and get there while you can... :hi:

[savannahana]

56. sorry, dupe

[BeHereNow]

61. U.S. Deserter Denied Refugee Status (Jeremy Hinzman)

http://toronto.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=to-deserter20050324
"


TORONTO – A U.S. army deserter who fled
to Toronto to avoid serving in Iraq was
denied refugee status Thursday by the
Canada's Immigration and Refugee
Board.

Jeremy Hinzman's application was heard
at a three-day immigration hearing in
December.

A written decision rejecting his claim was
released in Toronto on Thursday afternoon.

Hinzman, 26, tried to
argue at the hearing
that he left the
United States
because he was
being forced to
participate in an
illegal war."

Well hell...
BHN

[merwin]

62. Not LBN (March 24)

[BeHereNow]

63. Sorry- Just now heard of it.

Not good, not good at all.
BHN