LAT: Frist's Medical Opinion of Schiavo Draws Criticism

[DeepModem Mom]

Frist's Medical Opinion of Schiavo Draws Criticism
By Richard Simon and Maura Reynolds, Times Staff Writers


WASHINGTON -- As Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist pushed Congress to intervene in the Terri Schiavo case, he drew attention to a part of his resume many expect him to spotlight as he prepares for a likely 2008 presidential bid: He is a doctor....

***

But critics say the Republican senator from Tennessee may have overplayed his hand by offering a medical opinion in the Schiavo case.

In a speech last week on the Senate floor, Frist said that "speaking more as a physician than as a U.S. senator," he believed there was "insufficient information to conclude that Terry Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state."

Frist, who as a surgeon performed more than 150 heart and lung transplants, said his conclusion was based on a review of footage of the brain-damaged Florida woman whose parents are seeking to reconnect her feeding tube. He said he also consulted court documents and spoke to a neurologist who examined Schiavo two years ago....

***

Although there are no official rules against the practice, ethicists said it is generally considered unprofessional for a doctor to make or question a diagnosis on the basis of incomplete information....


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-frist22mar22,0,4390116.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[imenja]

1. this is the guy who said it's possible for HIV to spread through sweat

I'm not about to take his word on Terry Schiavo's medical condition.

[Hosnon]

82. With Stephanapolous? (sp) - He didn't actually confirm nor deny...

[TexasSissy]

87. I think he didn't know. Steph. was commenting on what Frist had

just said (something that implied HIV could be transferred thru sweat or something). We'll have to look that up and see the transcript.

It was more than just a statement by Steph. out of thin air, and silence from Frist. Much more, as I recall. It clearly showed he didn't know much about that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. If Terri Schiavo was a cat,

he'd be performing experimental surgery on her.

[yellowcanine]

3. Fristy's quackery may have cooked his 2008 goose. Heh.

By rushing in to please the religious right Fristy has grossly overplayed his hand. Something like 70% of the people think Congress should have butted out. Fristy is exposed for the opportunist that he is. Heh.

[TahitiNut]

4. All licensed psychiatrists and psychologists should now feel free ...

... to publish their opinions regarding Chimperor Disgustsus' mental health ... or lack thereof.

[Stand and Fight]

13. Dr. Justin Frank thanks you.

;)

Interesting read by the way...

[meow2u3]

19. Calling Dr. McDermott

Please issue a diagnosis for Chimpy, DeLay, Frist, and the rest of those crazy theocratic tyrants! They must be delusional, if not downright sociopaths!

[Dulcinea]

65. Also calling Dr. Dean! eom

[Journeyman]

5. We should fill Frist's email with pictures found on the web. . .

various shots of pus-filled sores, ass boils, gangrenous wounds . . . ask him if he'd mind diagnosing them and prescribing treatment through the web, since he's developed such reknown for medical analysis through electronic image. Of course, these are skin lesions and outside his realm of expertise, but that hasn't seemed to stop him in his new pursuit.

[LiberalFighter]

6. Does Frist NOW have a license to practice medicine?

Does Frist have the medical expertise concerning the brain?

IF Frist does not have a license to practice medicine... when did he lose his license?


It is my understanding that those practicing medicine MUST attend seminars and take other continuing education to maintain their license. They MUST be Board Certify in their specialty.

[grumpy old fart]

39. He is currently licensed and practices his specialty....

He's actually highly regarded as a heart surgeon. He's a lying scumball Nazi as a Senator, but by all accounts a good surgeon.

[knitter4democracy]

62. Of course he does.

Doctors don't let that go until they're dead.

He's just a scalpel jockey. :eyes: What would he know of neurology (since he hasn't studied it in ages and ages) or patients in vegetative states?

[Princess Turandot]

77. he might be 'highly regarded' as a heart surgeon..

I would not want a transplant done on me by a guy who takes off months in between to be a politician. Surgery is a precise mechanical skill as much as it is intellectual and practice does make perfect.

[daleo]

80. He might still be "practicing"

Lock up your cats, just in case.

[FreedomSpirit]

91. Agree with daleo -- Lock up your cats

Just in case, Princess Turandot. Wouldn't want any of those beautiful furballs ending up in the clutches of Dr. Katzenschreck!
:mad:

[knitter4democracy]

83. That's a very good point.

That's why they spend years perfecting their techniques. The good ones are never out of the OR for more than a few days at a time because they're afraid of getting rusty. Apparently, he used to be good, but I wouldn't trust his skills anymore.

[LiberalFighter]

86. I tried finding out online using the TN govt site

but couldn't pull him up

[WindRavenX]

7. well, Frisk does seem to know what it's like to work with braindeads...

...working with the likes of DeLay and Cheney and *...

[spooky3]

21. LOL!

[leesa]

24. But he thinks THEIR brains are functioning too!

[TaleWgnDg]

8. Oh, hell . . . politics is politics . . .

.

Oh, hell . . . politics is politics . . . and a congressman/woman can say any damn thing that they want to say upon the House or Senate floor. After all, the federal constitution grants them immunity from any lawsuit, civil or criminal. So they can lie. And they do. Wow, oh, wow, do the ever! Its called "politics."

And, yes, its unethical for an M.D. to diagnosis a patient without appropriate information upon which to draw that professional M.D. diagnosis. Similar is it to medically treat a "patient" or give a professional prognosis regarding such diagnosis. But what "hat" did Doctor Frisk have on his head? A mealy-mouthed politician trying to obtain votes and campaign funding? Or as an M.D. u/ a doctor-patient relationship?

Ahhhh, the endless ways deceitful politicians pander to the public!

[Triana]

9. He quacks like a duck.... (n/t)

[bigmonkey]

12. So, with the criticism, can we expect

him to duck like a quack now?

[EST]

81. How 'bout docs like a quack?

[bigmonkey]

89. Very, very good.

!

[napi21]

10. Why would a thorasic surgeon go into polotics?

I realize none of us really know the answer to that question, but it's been bugging me. Frist for sure. He was a specialist! IF he was good, it was a great job with great rewards and great pay.

I love Howard Dean, but I asked the same question about him. I realize he was a GP, and that's not nearly as financially beneficial as a specialist.


I THINK, most people study medicine because that's where their heart is, that's what they love to do, and they get great emotional rewards from doing their job.

Why would they give that up for politics????

[Sgent]

11. License to practice medicine

Is probably current. His Board Certification in thorasic surgery may or may not be.

Most state boards require a small amount (about 20-30 hours/year) of continuing education, most (or all depending on the state) of which can be completed by reading journals or doing it online. Many practicing physicians believe that a conference is neccissary to truley learn their speciality areas, but its not often required.

Other than Board of Family Practice, most boards have not required recertification after physicians pass their boards. Some are now implementing it, but often the older physicians are grandfathered.

No state requires that you maintain board certification to practice medicine. Most hospitals and insurance companies do if you wish to admit patients or to recieve reimbursement unless the physician has been practicing for 25+ years; however, their are a LOT of physicians out their who are not board certified, and never completed a residency (2-5 years of training) after their intership (1 year after medical school).

[Ilsa]

20. Interesting. Alot of nursing specialtiy certifications

require retesting every five years or so, not just CEU's. I believe Physician Assistants have to retake their exam every five years as well, but I am basing that on ten year old information.

[LizW]

22. Power over the lives of others

Frist is rich beyond imagining, so it can't be for the money. I think it's about fame and having power over other's lives. Remember, they call politics "show business for ugly people". Frist was probably a "star" in his medical world, but that wasn't enough. His ego needs more. He needs to be nationally famous.

[0007]

23. You have an excellent point!

It appears to me that one who is dedicated to medicine would have a hard time transferring into the slimy world of politics.

And if one was in the medical profession for bucks why would one take a chance in the political world where only first class thief's become wealthy?

[candy331]

40. I think Dean liked medicine and truly love people and can serve them

well in either role but preferred the role that could reach many more people than a Dr. could, whereas on he other hand Frist is power hungry and could less about people, hence his despicable actions.

[Beaverhausen]

76. Isn't his family part or whole owner of the HCA Group?

[MADem]

79. And there's yer smoking gun!!

Frist was born rich, and got richer — thanks to massive criminal fraud by the family business. The basis of the Frist family fortune is HCA Inc. (Hospital Corporation of America), the largest for-profit hospital chain in the country, which was founded by Frist’s father and brother. And, just as Karl Rove was engineering the scuttling of Trent Lott and the elevation of Frist, the Bush Justice Department suddenly ended a near-decadelong federal investigation into how HCA for years had defrauded Medicaid, Medicare and Tricare (the federal program that covers the military and their families), giving the greedy health-care behemoth’s executives a sweetheart settlement that kept them out of the can.

The government’s case was that HCA kept two sets of books and fraudulently overbilled the government. The deal meant that HCA agreed to pay the government $631 million for its lucrative scams — which, on top of previous fines, brought the total government penalties against the health-care conglomerate to a whopping $1.7 billion, the largest fraud settlement in history, breaking the old record set by Drexel Burnham.

The deal also meant that HCA can continue to participate in Medicare. And, as part of the Bushies’ deal shutting down what Deputy Assistant FBI Director Thomas Kubic called "one of the FBI’s highest-priority white-collar crime investigations," no criminal charges were brought against the top HCA execs who presided over the illegal bilking of federal programs designed to aid the poor — and that includes Senator Frist’s brother, Thomas, HCA’s former CEO (and current director), who’s been described by Forbes magazine as "one of the richest men in America," with a personal fortune estimated at close to $2 billion.

What did HCA do? It inflated its expenses and billed the government for the overrun; it billed the government for services ineligible for reimbursement (like advertising and marketing costs). HCA violated both law and medical ethics when, as Forbes put it, "the company increased Medicare billings by exaggerating the seriousness of the illnesses they were treating. It also granted doctors partnerships in company hospitals as a kickback for the doctors’ referring patients to HCA. In addition, it gave doctors ‘loans’ that were never expected to be paid back, free rent, free office furniture — and free drugs from hospital pharmacies." http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/08/news-ireland.php

[Daphne08]

90. My first cousin is a surgeon who is presently studying anesthesiology

because he dislikes the field of surgery...said too many of them have a God-complex.

If there is a surgeon here, I'm feel certain you are one of the exceptions. ;)

[Dr Fate]

14. It's also unethical to use medical patients as propaganda tools.

Or killing domestic kittens,for that matter.

Frist is an unethical QUACK.

[rodeodance]

15. He is NOT a neurologist--he should stay out of the diagnosing

[Dr Fate]

16. Oh- but he "saw the tape." No harm, no foul.

n/t

[GoBlue]

17. I hope it hasn't escaped anyone's sense of irony...

that Frist made his medical reputation by transplanting hearts from brain-dead donors. And in almost all cases he never saw the donor.

[harper]

18. The Frist family owns HCA

HCA is a huge chain of for-profit hospitals. That's were he's made his money. I used to work for a HCA institution...we laughed that most big corporations hire a lobbyist to represent their financial interest in Washington. HCA has the senate Majority leader. You can bet your bottom dollar that a HCA hospital wouldn't let a patient in a persistent vegetative state linger on HCA's dime. In fact, somebody ought to look into that and see what the HCA policy is on that particular subject.

[salin]

25. better than their policy... wonder if their actual record

could be found on such cases.

[Tsiyu]

29. I have to run out for a few hours, but you

have made a very good point. Anybody on DU know HCA policy on patients in persistent vegetative states....????
:kick:

[Massachusetts]

26. Frist = Milque toast

[Langley85]

27. Bill Frist is a publicity-hungry moron

and what business is it of his to be making medical evaluations of Terri Schiavo? He has never examined her in person, and he is not her doctor.

[JerseygirlCT]

28. Incomplete information

Seems to have reached epidemic proportions in the Bush administration. Perhaps Frist should turn his mighty medical esp toward that problem.

[rodeodance]

30. Frist Treads a Delicate Path in Citing Medical Background

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-frist22mar22,0,4390116.story?coll=la-home-headlines


Frist Treads a Delicate Path in Citing Medical Background

Critics say the majority leader, whose M.D. title could be an asset in 2008, overstepped in giving an opinion on Terri Schiavo's condition.

By Richard Simon and Maura Reynolds

Times Staff Writers

March 22, 2005

WASHINGTON — As Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist pushed Congress to intervene in the Terri Schiavo case, he drew attention to a part of his resume many expect him to spotlight as he prepares for a likely 2008 presidential bid: the fact that he is a physician.

Polls find that physicians rank among the most trusted professions, and most political experts think Frist's medical background will be an asset for him as a presidential candidate, separating him from the welter of lawyers and career politicians in Congress.

But critics say the Republican senator from Tennessee may have overplayed his hand by offering a medical opinion in the Schiavo case.

In a speech last week on the Senate floor, Frist said that "speaking more as a physician than as a U.S. senator," he believed there was "insufficient information to conclude that Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state."

[DebinTx]

31. Isn't Frist a cardiologist?

Besides, he hasn't seen her medical records, so yes, he overstepped his bounds.

[salin]

33. Would be curious how HCA (his company)

deals with similar cases.

[Gunit_Sangh]

35. re: frist

Isn't this SOP for the repugs? When has no knowledge of a subject hampered their desire to spin, spin, spin?

[rodeodance]

37. Frist said he consulted with neurologists. In the role as leader Senator,

what he did was not right.

[barb162]

66. wouldn't you love to know the names of those neurologists.

Everything I have read by the American Academy of Neurology is that Schiavo will not recover.

[sniffa]

32. i spent a few minutes

Looking at the drudge report, and in my expert, medicaL opinion, terri schiavo can be abLe to run for president in 2012.

[liberal N proud]

36. Why not, we have a brain dead president now!

[NJCher]

34. see the Jon Stewart clip featuring Frist

It's on the DU home page.


Cher

[Jon8503]

38. Is'nt he the one that killed cats??? Basically, another not to

bright right winger. These people are really scary.

[onenote]

41. I watched a tape of chimpy's last press conference

Pretty clear that he's brain dead.

onenote

[dutchdoctor]

42. Speaking more as a physician than as a D.U. member,

I believe there is insufficient information to conclude that Bill Frist is not in a persistent vegetative state.

There.

Does that help?

[DeepModem Mom]

43. LOL! Thanks for posting from the Netherlands, Doc!

[Sgent]

44. I don't know what the Tennessee rules are

but in some states this could get Frist in trouble with the Board of Medicine.

A physician is not allowed to make a diagnosis without being cognizent of all the facts -- including the history and exam in most cases.

Regardless, if he makes a diagnosis, and further prescribes a course of treatment, there is a question of a physician/patient relationship. If such exists, he can't talk about it without the patient's permission (in this case Micheal Shiavo's), due to patient confidentiality.

Although immune from any type of prosecution due to the Congressional exemption, he could be in trouble with the medical board (ala Bill Clinton losing his law license temporarily).

[dutchdoctor]

75. Thanks for the welcome DMM!

Watching this whole Terri Schiavo business with amazement and horror.
Lets hope it ends quickly and with dignity, so her body can follow her mind to the place it went to 15 years ago.

[mopinko]

45. transplant surgeon

does this mean that the donors of the organs that he transplanted were murdered?

[Career Prole]

46. Doctors in Congress Criticized on Schiavo

<snip>

But as Congress debated whether to intervene in the right-to-die fight over Terri Schiavo, several of those doctors weren't shy about offering their opinions about the brain-damaged woman's medical condition based on records, reports and videos taken by her family.

At least three physicians in Congress — Sen. Bill Frist (news, bio, voting record), and Reps. Dave Weldon and Phil Gingrey, Republicans from Tennessee, Florida and Georgia — disputed whether there was sufficient medical evidence to pull the feeding tube from Schiavo, allowing her to die.

By stepping into that discussion, some experts say, the physicians raise concerns in the medical community and potentially cross a hazy ethical line.

<snip>

"It's disturbing that doctors who would never venture a comment about the health of anybody from a homemade video are sitting on the floor of Congress making declarations," said Art Caplan, chairman of the Department of Medical Ethics at the University of Pennsylvania's School of Medicine. "My own impression, from a distance, is that they've subverted what they know to be good medicine for the aim of achieving a political goal."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=512&ncid=703&e=5&u=/ap/20050322/ap_on_go_co/schiavo_congress

[NVMojo]

47. that is sickening ...they were making medical calls on one dimensional

information, spewing out medical advice for free yet they are against national healthcare. Hypocrites!

[babylonsister]

48. I hope this is serious enough for the AMA to go

after them. They have no business calling themselves "doctors" when it's obvious their uninformed opinions were expressed for political gain.

[knitter4democracy]

63. They won't.

The AMA won't go after them because they are Republicans. AMNews never even did an article on Dr. Dean when he was running or since--and he and his wife are both internists! The AMA is evil, pure and simple, and the only reason my husband is still a member is so he can know what they're up to. We sure as hell don't give them one dime more than the membership fee (which we get mailings begging for at least once a week). Their PAC is freakin' powerful and rich.

[sundancekid]

49. AMEN. Not to mention the axiomatic ethical dictum: First, do no harm.

These 3 guys would be egg-rolled on their own licensing board lawns if they were to whisper such "professional" travesty as they did for political gains. BEYOND SHAMEFUL!

[DemBones DemBones]

74. If physicians today were following "First, do no harm,"

none of them would be saying it's right to remove a feeding tube from someone who's not even terminally ill.

[aintitfunny]

50. I would say that this is a good indicator

that you really should avoid medical treatment in Tennesse, Florida and Georgia. Nimrods.

[NNN0LHI]

51. The AMA should be investigating these witch doctors for malpractice n/t

[Mika]

53. The AMA can't - those dickheads didn't actually treat her.

Too bad, though. :shrug:

[knitter4democracy]

64. They did establish a doctor/patient relationship, though.

The legal definition is rather loose, so giving an "informed" opinion on a particular patient or advice of any kind to a particular patient does legally qualify.

They can't be sued for malpractice until there is harm, though.

Frankly, the only medical journals that will deal with it, in all likelihood, are Medical Economics (a great magazine) and the humor mag, Placebo Journal (which totally rocks).

[ClassWarrior]

52. Kick it up! It's almost a 4 on Yahoo News...

:kick:

NGU.

[Robbien]

54. Both GD and GD Politics are completely full of Schiavo threads

I guess the goal is now to make LBN Schiavo threads only also.

[UTUSN]

55. Something Wrong with That?

Given that the situation is POLITICAL, and crystallizes the continued assault on our system of government and our rights?

[Robbien]

57. No go ahead, post two or three dozen more Schiavo threads here in LBN

Nothing else in the whole world is happening except for Schiavo. If you see a thread on something else appear, make sure you spam that thread out of existence with more Schiavo threads.

No one has the right to talk about anything but Schiavo. Thanks for your efforts in making sure that only Schiavo threads are allowed to exist here at DU.

[UTUSN]

59. There Happened to Be LBN about the Case Today

and I'm sure you're using the word "you" in the plural. And feel free to ignore the reason for discussing the situation given in the post above.

[Robbien]

60. I am sure there are thousands of Schiavo articles you could post in LBN

Have fun.

[Career Prole]

56. Actually, this is more about Congressional repukes overstepping

than Schiavo.
When I found it I was checking the political articles.
If the moderators feel it should be combined with another thread I won't argue, but I believe this is a rather important aspect of the fiasco.

[Auntie Bush]

58. These 3 Drs. need to be charged with malpractice.

They announced that they were Drs. and this was their opinion as physicians. They violated their ethical code by giving their medical and expert opinion on something they knew nothing about. They need to be reprimanded publicly according to a medical ethics committee.

Good question for the MSNBC and CNN polls and the AMA. Fat chance!

[Catchawave]

61. I've had the same concerns about the doctors and lawyers

representing Terri's parents.

[DemBones DemBones]

73. Schwartz's comments were the most interesting.

"Rep. Joe Schwarz, R-Mich. — an ear, nose and throat surgeon — said he supported the bill because he found no medical reason for removing the feeding tube. He said Schiavo was not in any imminent danger of dying, did not have a terminal illness and has some cognitive ability."

"There's absolutely no indication under those circumstances, in my opinion, to remove her feeding tube," Schwarz said.

It was, in fact, BECAUSE she was not in any imminent danger of dying that Michael Schiavo wanted her feeding tube removed, with the goal of causing her death.

Not in imminent danger of dying, not terminally ill, just in the way.

[Hosnon]

84. My email to Congressman Phil Gingrey:

Congressman Gingrey,

It is disappointing, as a Georgia resident, to see you take such a stand regarding Terry Shaivo. The doctors in Florida will leave the politics to you and you need to leave the medical evaluations to them. Playing politics with the life of a human being is revolting.

A recent Gallup poll shows that 56% of the American public believes the feeding tube should be removed. Although it may be hard for you to believe, it is not your job to interfere in matters such as these - and the public agrees.

I once believed that Republicans stood for LESS government intrusion into the affairs of consenting adults. Congratulations on contributing to the erosion of that belief. I am beginning to see that another party trusts the decisions made by adults more than yours.

Thank you,

[Rose Siding]

67. State Physicians Group Condemns Involvement by Congress

The California Medical Assn. moved nearly unanimously Monday to condemn federal legislation signed by President Bush allowing Terri Schiavo's parents to ask a federal judge to order her feeding tube reconnected.
...
Several doctors urged the group to reject what they called improper political influence on medical decisions best left to patients and their families. To intervene in the Schiavo case is tantamount to torture, said William Andereck, an internist and the director of a program in medicine and human values at the California Pacific Medical Center in San Francisco. He said Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state from which she could not recover and has responded only reflexively to the infliction of pain.
...
"To say a husband has no right to save his wife from a horrible existence is intolerable," said Sterling, who also practices hospice care. "This is a golden-rule issue, and we feel it is an important national issue."

The issue galvanized physicians because of the political implications, not necessarily the medical facts of Schiavo's case, said Robert E. Hertzka, a former president of the CMA. If the delegates were polled, he predicted they would split over whether to reconnect Schiavo's feeding tube. "Congress is inserting themselves into a situation best left to a healthcare team," Hertzka said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/la-na-cma22mar22,1,4748740.story?coll=la-news-politics-national

[LEW]

68. I hope more State physician organizations

speak out!!!!

[rodeodance]

69. umm bet not too many state assoc. will do this.

[Pachamama]

72. Sadly the left Coast State of CA seems to have the Cajones these days

Maybe one or two other states in the NE might step up to the plate (ie. NH, MA, VT) but your right, not too many state assoc. will do this...

[reality based]

70. "To intervene in the Schiavo case is tantamount to torture"

What do you expect from the enablers of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo?

[madhat]

71. Wow! Persons with balls! eom

[knitter4democracy]

78. Good idea!

I'm going to see if I can get my husband to get the MSMS to do it too here in Michigan. Maybe they can at least put pressure on our doctor reps in Congress to stay the hell away from this one.

[Rex]

85. It should! He looked at a videotape for an hour and new what was wrong?

BULLSHIT!!!

[Hamcracker]

88. No political motivations here. We're all just compassionate conservatives.