Legal, Ethical Questions Largely Decided, Experts Say (Schiavo case clear)

[DeepModem Mom]

Washington Post:
Legal and Ethical Questions Largely Decided, Experts Say

By Shankar Vedantam and Rick Weiss
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, March 22, 2005; Page A06


For all the political controversy over whether Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state and should be allowed to die, neurologists and ethicists said yesterday that the case presents few scientific and legal ambiguities.

Congress, President Bush and others have sought to place the case in the context of a broader ethical and political struggle to define when life ends -- with resonances for the lingering question of when it begins. But many experts said this is the wrong test case for a nation struggling with those profound questions.

The brain-damaged woman will never regain the conscious awareness she lost 15 years ago, medical experts said, and decades of case law have already dealt with the legal issues raised by people in her condition.

Patients who do not return to normal within weeks of losing conscious awareness have a very poor prognosis, studies have shown. Electrical measurements have revealed no activity in the regions of Schiavo's brain needed for such consciousness, and repeated clinical examinations have left no doubt about her future.

"She is permanently unconscious and will never again have consciousness," said Robert M. Veatch, a professor of medical ethics at the Kennedy Institute of Ethics at Georgetown University, adding that she cannot feel sensations of hunger or thirst. "She can't starve or be thirsty. Anyone who uses those words doesn't understand the condition she is in."...


(Ronald Cranford, a physician who has examined Schiavo, is quoted in the article: "Tomorrow I will do a transplant surgery if (Frist) starts doing neurology. I have as much competence in transplant surgery as he is competent to do a neurological diagnosis on a videotape. He has no clue.")


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55137-2005Mar21.html

[ananda]

1. can't starve

Well, to pick a nit, she -can- starve..

.. she just won't feel anything or know it.

It's the humane thing to do.. to just let her die naturally.

Sue

[kedrys]

3. The whole thing really bothers me

My gravely ill 16-year-old cat was put to sleep with far more dignity and grace than that poor woman will ever receive. That's just not right.

[kskiska]

6. Dr. Kevorkian was put into prison

for attempting to provide patients with a painless way to die with dignity. Now the Repugs are crying about having to live according to their own barbaric laws.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

7. You loved your cat

Her parents don't love that poor woman.

A loving parent doesn't make a child a public spectacle simply for the purpose of getting them more attention.

A loving parent doesn't lie about the child's true condition.

Tonight, on Larry King, I saw a clip of Mr. Schindler, standing before the crowd outside the hospice, that his daughter smiled when he told her that her case was going into Federal Court.

Can you imagine?

They're obviously deeply disturbed people, and I wonder, given Mrs. Schiavo's history of bulimia, how troubling her family life was when she was a child and an adolescent.

Probably quite troubling, I suspect. Girls from healthy, happy homes don't develop eating disorders.

[peekaloo]

9. I saw Mr. Schindler on local TV tonight. He was literally working the

crowd. Reminded me of a sideshow barker. Got a big larf from the crowd when he said he would vote for Bu$h again, twice.

Weird.

[jdj]

15. are you saying like Munchausen by proxy or something?

that makes more sense than anything I've heard so far.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

19. No, not really

I don't think they've done anything to hurt her physically. But, they did violate a court order that prohibited them from videotaping their daughter, and thereby destroyed any shred of privacy or dignity she might have had.

Who hasn't seen those pathetic, heavily edited, images? They're awful.

What kind of parent subjects a child to that kind of public horror? Even though their daughter isn't cognizant of what's going on, still, love is the desire to protect, not to exploit.

But, they're sure as hell exploiting her for their 15 minutes or fame. And, having seen and listened to Michael Schiavo telling his side of the story, I believe him absolutely, and I think those parents are evil.

[kurtyboy]

22. I used to think that every case that made it to the Supreme Court

had been vetted to such a level that the applicants and respondents must both have solid rational arguments, that they had their heads screwed on tightly.

And then, a few years ago, people I'd grown up with--on both sides of a particular issue--wound up with a case in the USSC. It was a case involving grandparent's visitation rights to a child. (very weird to read about allthe people you know in USA Today from 1500 miles away...)

I have to say, the folks on the applicant (grandfolk) side were, well, a little off, in my estimation. IMHO, anybody who had a chance to actually talk to both sides in the issue would have quickly concluded the same--but the grandfolks nonetheless got their case to the Supreme Court--at the extreme expense (2nd and 3rd mortgage) of the respondents (plaintiffs) who only wanted to have some modicum of control over their childrens' well-being. (Visits were allowed by the parents, but not ordered by the court)

The point is, just because you have a federal case, you're not any less screwed up mentally than the average bear. Nope, you just found a lawyer with "family values" who was willing to exploit you and your mental imbalance. Shaivos are no exception.

My two cents....

[Mike Daniels]

27. It's times like this I wish they would allow a video in her room

Let a neutral observer set up a video camera and have the Schindlers talk to Terry while standing several feet away and try to get her prolonged attention.

Perhaps that would stop the bull-sh*t spin her parents are able to get away with through the use of their edited video.

[Trillo]

12. Cats don't pay Taxes, ever!

I'm convinced expanding the tax base is what the pro-life movement is being used for by the neocons.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

5. No, she cannot "starve"

If she were ingesting food, then withholding food would sustain your statement - that she would starve.

But, she's been prescribed a mixture of chemicals, and that's not food. I defy you to sit down with a bowl - or a bag, since that's how it's packaged - of the stuff that's forced into her gut, and eat it. I defy you to tell me that's a meal.

She can't eat. She can't chew. She can't swallow.

She is on life support. She is not on a meal plan.

[LiberalFighter]

13. In fact it is prohibited for anyone to try to feed her.

To do so would subject anyone to charges of murder as the patient would choke to death.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

21. Love your signature line ................. n/t

[saigon68]

25. Nice signature line

It certainly sums up the Bush Criminals.

[The Doctor.]

8. Devil's Advocate here...

So if she doesn't think, know, or feel anything, what difference does it really make to 'her' whether she lives or dies?

It is sad that people are being told that she could 'recover'.
It is even more sad that people believe that.

Letting her go will end the torment of her loved ones, even if those loved ones may be misguided.

My opinion - If the parents want take her home and care for her at their own expense rather than that of the tax payers, and it can be ruled that she is 'deceased' for all of Michael's legal purposes - they should be allowed to do so.

While I know Michael doesn't believe his wife would have wanted to live like this - he should recognize that she is rather oblivious to the circumstances.

[jdj]

16. well, since the repukes are spouting off their relig. b.s., I will too.

her soul is trapped in her body right now and she can't pass on to her next existence, and it's for no damn good reason.

[Lindacooks]

17. That's where the 'sanctity of marriage' comes in.

As her husband, Mr. Schiavo is also her guardian. That's part of the marriage contract, which Repukes, who howl at the suggestion of gay marriage, saying it would 'undermine the sanctity of marriage', are trying to undermine!

Mr. Schiavo is trying to abide by his wife's wishes, which have already been determined by 19 judges in trials over 7 years.

[The Doctor.]

18. Indeed.

That should be a well-lauded 'talking point'.

If they are saying that a husband cannot make such decisions, then they are certainly undermining the 'sanctity' of marriage.

[slackmaster]

26. In sickness and in health, until death...

Sometimes death is exactly what a sick person needs.

People should respect Mr. Schiavo's decision. It is his right.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

20. Do you know about love?

Do you know about loyalty?

He is taking care of his wife and honoring her wishes. It has nothing to do with the expenses, and, as her next of kin and legal guardian, Michael Schiavo has the legal obligation to act for her in the absence of her ability to do so.

He is her voice because she cannot talk.

He is her protector because she cannot protect herself.

He is her husband, he loves her, and he is honoring her wishes.

We should all have spouses and significant others as dedicated and devoted as Michael Schiavo. He is a hero.

[napi21]

2. Thank you Dr. Croford! We all knew that about Frist, but it's GREAT

to hear one of his fellow Doctors say the same.

Frist has been an arrogant fool ever since he entered politics, and for all I know, he was the same as a medical professional!

[yellowcanine]

4. Fristy gets dissed by a fellow physician. Heh. He quacks like a duck.

How embarrassing is that? They should haul him before the Medical Board and strip his credentials to practice medicine for his adventure into the Land of Quackery.

[TaleWgnDg]

23. Hhhhhhhmmmmmm . . . congress has immunity regarding . . .

.

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm . . . congress has immunity regarding . . . assertions during House/Senate sessions.

Frisk is protected from any backlash (which is why he did it). He knew. Both houses of congress have competent legal counsel at their elbows advising them of legal matters.

Frisk, an M.D., can lie like a rug if he so chooses . . . and he did, and does. Many do, and can. However "immoral" it may sound or is, it's done.

It's called pandering for votes and for campaign monies via shilling to the masses (or niches of masses) in asserting what they want to hear = politics. Smile for those c-span cameras. Vote for stupid laws that have no meaning, that appease the ignorant at the expense of others -- even those in a 15-year vegetable state! Unconstitutional or not!

Who cares if it gets votes and filled campaign coffers?! It's politics at its lowest possible denominator -- neo-con approved.

---

[daleo]

10. This is the "miracle" question.

It has come to this - the politicians believe (or say the do) that they can't rule out the possibility that a miracle might occur. Stripped of the verbiage, that is what it amounts to - public policy is being set by expectations of the miraculous.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

11. So why aren't they praying

that she wakes up and asks for a pizza?

[daleo]

14. I am sure plenty are (fundies, not sure about the politicians).

When it doesn't happen they will say God was just testing them.

As for the right wing politicians, they are praying she doesn't die, because this is great for motivating their base. And she is a profit center for right wing preachers, so they are praying too.

[saigon68]

24. "Can a Sea Cucumber sing and dance in A Broadway Musical"

A/K/A--- The Terry Schiavo Story--coming to a Court House Near You.