Almost a million Lebanese turn out to press for Syrian pullout (Pic's Wow)

[truthpusher]

Mon Mar 14, 2:16 PM ET

Lebanese soldiers keep an eye on hundreds of thousands of demonstrators at Martyrs Square in Beirut's downtown. More than 800,000 people poured into the heart of the city for an opposition demanding an end to nearly three decades of Syrian military domination and to mark the fourth week of the death of former Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri.(AFP/Anwar Amro)




Mon Mar 14, 2:16 PM ET


The shadow of Mohamad al-Amin mosque where late Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri is buried is cast on hundreds of thousands of Lebanese demonstrators who packed Martyrs Square in downtown Beirut. More than 800,000 people poured into the heart of the city for an opposition demonstration demanding an end to nearly three decades of Syrian military domination and to mark the fourth week since Hariri was killed.(AFP/Haitham Mussawi

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http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050314/ts_afp/lebanonsyria_050314194650

Almost a million Lebanese turn out to press for Syrian pullout

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BEIRUT (AFP) - More than 800,000 people surged into central Beirut to demand an end to Syria's near-three decade military domination of Lebanon, hurling a dramatic and potent challenge to the pro-Syrian Lebanese government.

Ahead of the largest demonstration in the country's history, thousands of Lebanese travelled from all over to Martyrs Square and the grave of former prime minister Rafiq Hariri, assassinated exactly one month ago in a bomb blast.

Beirut city official Mounib Nassereddine said Monday's gathering was "at least two and a half times" larger than last Tuesday's turnout called by pro-Syrian Lebanese parties, notably the Shiite Muslim movement Hezbollah.

complete story: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050314/ts_afp/lebanonsyria_050314194650

[BlueEyedSon]

1. How big was the pro-Syrian demonstration?

[Blue to the bone]

3. The article says this one was two and half times larger....n/t

[atreides1]

44. But

How many came on busses.;)

[CoffeeCat]

4. I heard on CNN the pro-Syrian demo was 500,000 (n/t)

[blm]

28. Joe Klein was there and he said it was about a million on Charlie Rose

last week and Klein is a pretty accurate reporter.

I think that is why they are having a do-over for anti-Syria protestors and pumping numbers closer to the proSyria crowds from last week.

[Blue to the bone]

2. The whole thing's a fake.......

They were told there'd be free kibbes.

[annabanana]

5. So, Lebanon is headed for civil war, right?

What is keeping them from each other's throats now? Possibly the Syrian troops?

I don't know the history, so this is just a question..

[Vladimir]

11. Not necessarily

the real problem is that a lot of the opposition leadership is composed of the warlords who tore the country up during the 80s, and Hizb Allah is of course not exactly a boy band itself. But I doubt seriously that the Lebanese have much of a stomach for yet another civil war, and the opposition is not that well armed when compared to Hizb Allah. But yes, a civil war is one possible outcome, and certainly not that unlikely. What I find a lot more likely is that the illusion of an imminent civil war will be created, and then used to justify a foreign intervention of the non-Syrian kind into Lebanon. To this end notice how Hizb Allah have been invited to disarm and 'join the political process' - something they are bloody unlikely to acquiesce to (at least the first part).

[daleo]

25. Good analysis.

That's my sense too. Bush would love the opportunity to 'restore order'. Sharon too, most likely.

[Tempest]

27. What will determine a civil war

1) How much support Israel gives to the Christian minority.

2) How much meddling in Lebanon's affairs Bush does.


There will be no civil war if Lebanon is left alone. But then, if Lebanon is left alone, it will become an Islamic nation.

[Teaser]

34. I give it about a 55% chance of civil war.

Low level, perhaps, but a civil war seems likely to my analysis.

[ProgressiveConn]

47. I'd disagree.

I think while it is possible that we will see 'terrorist' style attacks it will not lead to open civil war.

The current series of protests have all been draped in nationalism. Which is probably a good thing in this case. Hezbollah didn't call for its supporters to demonstrate "as usual." They called for a "Unity" demonstration. I'm told that a good portion of the demonstrators were a part of all three big demonstrations. That just because the Hezbollah called demonstration was larger than the original demonstration does not mean that the Lebanese wanted Syrian troops to stay.

A friend read me portions of an email from her Lebanese friend now back in Beirut. She apparently attended the 'anti-Syrian' demonstration and then the 'pro-Syrian' demonstration as well. She said she is worried about sectarian militias and that it is better to try and include Hezbollah as a part of democratic Lebanon and to further encourage the Shi'ite community and their allies to express themselves as Lebanese first and Shi'ites/anti-zionists second. That Lebanon is best served by a Unity government including those who approve of Syria's domination of Lebanon. That it should be a slow transition and that those who support Syria's involvement should be encouraged to participate.

The problem that I see with the Lebanese Opposition is that they seem to be unwilling to remove parts of the Lebanese government that basically institutionalizes the sectarian divide. With secular governmental positions being limited to specific religious groups. How can you mandate that the President has to be a Christian? How can you mandate that the Prime Minister must be a Sunni? How can you mandate that their legislature is run by a Shi'ite? It is frigging ridiculous. I am not sure that sectarian hostilities can ever be eliminated with this type of structure.

It is important that all sides are demonstrating under the Lebanese red, white, & cedar and that there has been a visible decline in the use of the yellow banner with green rifle clenched in a fist. Maybe this signifies the start of a shift in hezbollah from a military organization to a strictly political one. It will be a long road as I can promise you Hezbollah will not disarm anytime in the near future even if they ended up in complete control of the Lebanese government.

[Teaser]

51. The use of the lebanese flag is a ruse

It will be discarded in a manner of weeks or months for sectarian flags. I am willing to bet at hezbollah's next few protests you'll begin to see a few more of their flags than you saw at the mass rally last week.

Right now the flag is being used as an excuse for the various militias to position themselves. It will be flown only as long as it is convenient.

[ProgressiveConn]

62. I wouldn't take you up on that bet.

I am hopeful that you're wrong though I know that at least in a minority of cases you're right.

My only hope is that it will continue to be convenient in the long run. Even if its use is merely a temporary political convenience it furthers the cause for unity today.

[Career Prole]

6. "My demonstration's bigger than your demonstration!"

Chrissakes, watch how this plays out on FAUX news.
"This crowd was clearlylarger than that at the recent pro-Syrian demonstration."
"And don't forget...people are saying many of those demonstrators weren't really demonstrators, like this crowd clearly is."

Just let them vote on it, will ya? What's with the "battle of the bands" shit?

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ScreamingMeemie]

8. ...or genocide happens...but then, freedom's on the march, eh?

Welcome to DU....heh

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ScreamingMeemie]

10. No, that is true

You don't get it. Nor will you, ever. You just go back to eating the pablum that George feeds you, and don't forget to buy a few more yellow magnet stickers to support the troops who are dying for that "freedom" that just doesn't seem to be happening in your war. :hi:

[Vickers]

14. George and his dipshit commandos think it's a bad thing

Didja notice how far away the protestors (which are a part of a democracy and freedom, like it or not) were kept from the RNC convention in NYC, the Inauguration in DC, etc. etc.

Jackboot politics SUCK.

[bluestateguy]

15. Democracy also means respecting the choices people make

If the people of a country don't want American corporations in their cities, that decision needs to be respected.

If the people of a country decide to elect a Shiite fundamentalist government, that decision needs to be respected.

If the people of a country decide to elect a government that asks US troops to leave, that decision needs to be respected and complied with.

[seriousstan]

16. For many here, the problem is it is happening under Bush's watch.

When the first protest occurred about a week ago, the very first post was..."NOOOOO...don't give this to *."

As you can see, some are willing to see every possibly good event be belittled or suspended until Bush is out of office.


A rather limited and self-absorbed view, in my opinion.

[Colorado Blue]

46. I agree. This looks like democracy in action whether we

want to give Bush any credit or not.

That doesn't mean we are going to love the outcome. However, Lebanon has always been complex and hopefully a democratic state would, like ours, manage to balance the interests of its very diverse people.

One thing in Lebanon's favor: like all the states bordering the Mediterranean, it has a long history of commerce and trade and cultural exchange with Europe, North Africa, and Asia Minor (ie, Turkey), as well as with its neighbors.

Hopefully this rich history and diversity of outlook will once again express itself in tolerance.

[Tempest]

21. There will be no democracy

See my post about Lebanon falling back into a civil war.

The Shiites are the majority, and like Iraq will create an Islamic based government.

[LynnTheDem]

23. Why do DUers think demanding peace-keeping troops leave means

demanding "DEMOCRACY"?

They're not demanding "DEMOCRACY", they're demanding the Syrian peace-keeping troops leave.

They also demanded their Syrian PM come back to office.

I sure wish Americans knew WTF "democracy" even means.

[Tempest]

26. Democracy means

Whatever Bush says it means.

According to Bush, democracy means occupying a nation and putting conditions on their elections, economy and media.

According to Bush, democracy means supporting dictators because they support U.S. imperialism.

[LynnTheDem]

30. And one day when all these nations become democracies and elect

governments who reflect the will of the people -ie that hate America- I suspect we'll suddenly find many Americans not so pro-"
democracy" after all.

Bottom line is as you said; "Democracy" means whatever bush says it means, and that differs nation to nation.

As a nation ranked as #13th in the world for democracy, bush should work on AMERICA first, before "spreading democracy" at gunpoint to other nations.

[joefree1]

12. Or Bush's poll numbers keep tanking then it's what we fighting for...

Don't ask me I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Iraq-nam, ...er I mean Iran-nam, I mean Leba-nam,
Oh no never mind,
Whoopee we're all gonna die ...

[joefree1]

17. What do you think of this march for Democracy?

Will you cheer us too? There will be millions of us all over the world.

Global day of Protest
Saturday, March 19th 2005 noon
Rally & March on the 2nd Anniversary of the War
End the War-Bring the Troops Home-
Rebuild Our Communities
For more info go here:
http://www.unitedforpeace.org/

[Cocoa]

13. wow

:wow:

[Tempest]

18. Lebanon's Slide Back Into Civil War

From our very own Teaser:

http://tinyurl.com/493oj

Today's huge opposition protest in Beirut has been painted as a tactical move designed to regain momentum from Hezbollah's huge protest last week. The numbers are comparable, with perhaps a slight edge going to today's opposition protest in Martyr's Square. However, for protests of this scale, size really doesn't matter anymore. It's become clear in the past few days that Lebanon remains a highly fractured community where social fault lines cut in such a way as to apportion roughly equal numbers of people into the "opposition" and "loyalist" camps. But, as concerned obsevers of this situation, we should look at what is really going on here, what these struggles are really about, and where they are likely to end up.

To begin to understand the current situation in Lebanon, we have to turn the clock back all the way to 1932. This is the date of the last Lebanese census. At this time, the population was roughly 54% Maronite Christian and 44%. The parliament was set up according to a quota system in which 6 seats were apportioned to Christians for every 5 seats for Muslims (including the heretical mystic sect known as the Druze). This situation holds in the parliament to this day, and was no small reason for the civil war that lasted from the mid 70s to about 1990.

The problem is that the demographics of Lebanon have shifted strongly toward the muslims since the 1930s. They are certainly a majority now, although the Lebanese government has resisted a new census, for fear of reigniting the sectarian passions of the civil war era. But there is a new dynamic afoot now, one that is by no small measure responsible for the current tit-for-tat protests we are seeing. Not only are muslims a majority of Lebanon's population now, but Shi'ah muslims represent the nation's largest sect. Some will claim that the Shi'ah actually represent a majority of the population, but I think that is unlikely. They probably represent a little less than half of Lebanon's population.

<more>

[bluestateguy]

19. I oppose this foreign occupation

And in case somebody hasn't figured it out from the over 10,000 posts I have made here I have opposed the US occupation and Iraq war since day one , so I have moral authority to call for Syria's pullout.

[Tempest]

22. Iraqis find irony in Bush's stance on Lebanon, Syria

Iraqis find irony in Bush's stance on Lebanon, Syria

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/world/11120948.htm

BAGHDAD, Iraq - (KRT) - Many Iraqis found bitter irony in President Bush's insistence last week that Syria must withdraw from Lebanon before it holds elections, for Iraqis have lived with foreign tanks in their streets for two years and voted barely a month ago under the watchful eye of the U.S. Army.

"He must have forgotten that his army is occupying Iraq," said Sa'ad Abdul Aziz, 21, an engineering student at Baghdad University. "What about the Republican Palace that they are using as a U.S. embassy?"

[Tempest]

24. M.E. expert: Hizzbullah will fill vaccum left by Syrian pullout

Those of you interested in following the Lebanon situation should consult Helena Cobban's web log. Cobban is a veteran reporter who has spent substantial time in Beirut and was there last fall.

She points to this 3/12 al-Hayat article:

Salama Ni`mat writes from Washington: "As the White House and the State Department deny any change in American policy toward Hizbullah, an American official expressed his anxiety at the possibility that Hizbullah will exploit the curtailment of Syrian influence in Lebanon to reinforce its own military and political position in Lebanon, in cooperation with Iran and at the expense of the Lebanese Opposition. The official, who requested anonymity, said that Hizbullah "Might prove able to sweep the Lebanese elections, if they are held without foreign interference, and to fill the vaccuum that the Syrian withdrawal will leave behind." He clarified that Hizbullah, which was yesterday a Syrian ally, might tomorrow be its successor, whether by resort to weapons or by dominance at the ballot box.

juancole.com

[LynnTheDem]

33. Too bad then that you don't know the FACTS; it;s NOT an "occupation".

In FACT, Lebanon asked Syria to send the troops for peace-keeping.

In FACT, the majority of Lebanese want the Syrian peacekeeping troops to remain.

Now bush can call those 14,000 Syrian troops an "occupation" all he likes, but it doesn't change the FACT that they are not an "occupation".

[Tempest]

35. You left out something

>>Lebanon asked Syria to send the troops for peace-keeping<<

Syria received express permission by the U.S. to send troops to Lebanon.

In effect, Syria was there by invitation.

[LynnTheDem]

39. Yes and that in fact for 14 years the govt of Lebanon has asked Syrian

troops to remain.

Now they're pulling out, the UN has to send UN troops in to replace them.

Which means less UN troops available for elsewhere.

Funny how American forces by bush's own UN Resolution are the "official OCCUPIERS" of Iraq, were never invited by the Iraqis, & the majority of Iraqis demand US forces get the hell out of their country, but we're not supposed to think of ourselves as occupiers...but a nation that DID invite troops for peace-keeping are deemed "occupiers" by bush.

And how is BUSH (or anyone else including DUers) demanding the Syrian peace-keeping troops leave "democracy"? Isn't that up to the Lebanese?

[LynnTheDem]

20. Population of Lebanon 2.6 million, 60% Muslim pro-Syrian.

So every single person of the 40% minority in Lebanon showed up?

Hmmmm.

"Syrian military domination"; Lebanon INVITED Syria to send peace-keeping troops. That's "military domination"?

Hmmmm.

[rinsd]

32. Invited...14 years ago....hmmmmmm

"So every single person of the 40% minority in Lebanon showed up?"

Or it may have cut across religious lines.

"Population of Lebanon 2.6 million, 60% Muslim pro-Syrian"

60% Muslim, I know. But does Muslim automatically translate to pro-Syria?

[Tempest]

36. No, but most are pro-Hizzbullah

And Hizzbullah wants Syria there.

Hizzbullah is the de-facto government in Lebanon. They run most of the country's hospitals, schools and other government functions.

[rinsd]

38. Thanks (nt)

[Teaser]

42. Hizbullah is definitely the government in the south.

South Lebanon might as well be called Hizb Allah land.

[LynnTheDem]

37. And asked to remain for 14 years by the government of Lebanon. And now

the UN will be sending peace-keeping troops in to replace the Syrian troops.

Guess we'll have to call the UN peace-keepers "occupiers" now.

The majority of Muslims are pro-Hezbollah. Hezbollah is pro-Syrian and doesn't want the Syrian troops pulling out because Lebanon won't be able to protect the country by themselves.

[rinsd]

41. And we've been in SK at the request of their government....

It just seems silly that many rail against US meddling but on this issue, there seems to be a 180 in though and all sorts of justifications for Syria to be an "occupying force".

"Guess we'll have to call the UN peace-keepers "occupiers" now"

If Syria was also an occupier, then to be consistent I guess so. Though I suppose you could make the case that an international force vs. a single nation state is less of an occupying force but that would be more semantics.

[Teaser]

43. The country is pretty evenly split

Between pro and anti-Syrian movements.

[Up2Late]

29. I See Busses

This one I don't think was orchestrated by the Neo-Cons and the Bushies, because it's not getting much air time on CNN, In fact I turned on CNN/HLN over an hour ago, and still haven't seen it:shrug:

[ElectroPrincess]

31. The sooner Syria pulls out, the sooner the Civil War can begin. eom

[Media_Lies_Daily]

40. Some observations, and I'm surprised at some of the comments....

1. The crowd is big, but I don't believe for a second that it exceeds 500,000 people...in fact, that may be a generous estimate. Here's a pic of the people at the legendary Woodstock music festival that attracted 400,000 people:

<>

2. Syria is the only counter-balance that Lebanon has to hold the Israelis at bay. Israel is just looking for an excuse to invade southern Lebanon again. Only this time it will be very bad, on a par with Israel's recent destructive and deadly forays into the Palestinian camps on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

3. The US news media is controlled by the Busch Junta. Therefore, they are going to report only those things that make it appear that more Lebanese want the Syrians out of Labanon, and they're going to report that Syria is dragging it's heels. I'm waiting for the demonization of the Syrian leader, and statements that Syria has Iraq's WMDs.

[robcon]

45. The size of the crowd is not important.

The important thing is that there will be a candidate or candidates in the May elections who want Syria to leave Lebanon. That's the most important outcome of the demonstrations.

[stepnw1f]

48. Obviously the Size Does Matter

or we wouldn't be posting about it. The INTENT by MSM/Bush is becoming more and more obvious. It does matter for those who care.

[amandabeech]

49. Your tax dollars at work! n/t

[mordarlar]

50. :::sigh:::; Imagine what we could get done if we had a rally like that.

[Vladimir]

52. We had a bigger one in London prior to the invasion of Iraq

and it achieved nothing. Demonstrations must be backed up by concrete political action or they are meaningless...

[Up2Late]

53. Can you imagine the uproar if some foreign governments...

...paid for your demonstrations and passed out flags and gear, I'd love it if that happened, JUST to see Bill O'Rilly and the other Talking Heads turn Purple with rage.

[humanriteswritlarge]

55. The real issue is that Bush wants another war

Bush is rattling sabres and calling the Syrians "occupiers" because it fits the frame he wants. And he will play up the fiction that Syria has the WMDs AND is backed by Iran. He needs another war in order to "call upon the patriotism of the American people to support democracy for oppressed people" and, therefore, we will reinstitute the draft. Just watch.

[IranianDemocrat]

54. This is all bullshit/

Syria is implementing, with some delay, the 1989 Taif Accord, and furthermore, it has no big grief over its soldiers leaving Lebanon. Why? Because most of you don't see the other face of all this. Not a SINGLE Shia was there protesting today, and they make up close to 50% of people residing in Lebanon now. Both Shia parties (Amal and Hezbollah) are VERY close to Syria and they, together with a handful of pro-Syrian Sunnis and Christians, will gain majority in the next Parliamentary elections. With pure and simple majority of votes, no fraud or rigging needed.
It should be hence clear that the order to kill the much mourned Hariri came from Tel Aviv, not Damascus. It would take an act of absolute insanity from the hitherto pragmatic Syrians to blow away such a popular man. Israel, had all to gain, on the other hand, wishfully thinking that Syria would panic and use force to quell the demos. Hasn't happened so far...
If anything, these demonstrations are kudos for Assad who can claim, once his allies win the elections in a few months' time, that he won it fairly and squarely. Assad, just like his father, is a Lion, but a very very cunning and subtle one

[Hell Hath No Fury]

57. I have thought that from the beginning...

that Syria had nothing to do Hariri -- to do something of that magnitude at a time when Bush & CO. are just begging for any excuse to take you out is stupidity at its highest -- and Assad just ain't stupid.

After reading accounts of the groups we have/are funding in Syria and Iran, I have no doubt in my mind it was us or Sharon or both.

[Up2Late]

58. I think most of us here agree with you

If you have detected a mixed message, it is most likely our extreme frustration with out current, very corrupt Government.

I, myself, do NOT support the RW Government in Israel, but do wish Peace to all the people in the Mid-East and South Asia. I don't think Israel had nearly as much to gain as you seem to think, I have long felt this was a CIA hit, meant to disrupt the Peace and economic progress that was being made in Lebanon.

This is just another piece of the Neo-Con "Project for the New American Century." The product of some very twisted minds.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

56. wonder who payed for all those HUGE new flags & all the kinko posters

with the Madison ave slogans "Syria'L Killers Go Home"?

whoever will benefits the most from the assassination of Hariri is the one/ones who did it....nuff said

[makhno]

60. Time for the Cedar Revolution!

As to which Madison Ave. shop designed the colorful posters, scarves, flags and slogans that all of a sudden seem to be in endless supply in Beirut, my bet would be on some of the same names that have had experience with such things in Serbia, Georgia, Ukraine and Belorus, among others.

Democracy, it's like Pepsi. Kids the world over just can't get enough.

[da_chimperor]

59. Whatever the numbers, the sheer size of the pro and anti Syrian rallies

show that Lebanon is a very divided country. Saying 'oh, but there were a few hundred-thousand more protesters' at one rally than another is pointless, IMO. Nothing changes that. All I hope for is that this doesn't spark another civil war.

[Imajika]

61. It's quite amusing to note...

..the tenor of these Lebanese protest threads. When the anti-Syrian opposition demonstrates in the streets, what appears to be a majority of the comments are negative - putting the entire thing in the worst light possible. On the other hand, when the pro-Syrian Hezbollah people hold rallies, you can just tell that the majority of people chosing to comment are pleased and exhibit a sortof "in your face Bush, what are you gonna do now" attitude. This may not be the intention of people posting on these threads, but I guarantee you that a neutral observer would take precisely that away from reading them.

Few admit it, but it appears to me that many (not all ofcourse) folks here on DU could absolutely not care less about the Lebanese people. If the anti-Syrian opposition has its way and helps to force Syrian troops out of Lebanon, the fear that it will be seen as a victory or vindication for Bush is enough to make such a thing a negative or undesirable for an awful lot of members - even if that is what over 50% of the Lebanese people probably want.

Not everything is about Bush folks, nor is it always about OUR political needs, wants or goals. No one knows how things will shake out in Lebanon, but I don't think it is healthy to root for Syria or Hezbollah or hope for disaster in Lebanon because it might hurt Bush. Good and bad things happen on the watch of every President. What is happening in Lebanon may be good, but that won't mean that it was Bush's policies that caused it. It is pretty clear that the assassination of Mr Hariri was the trigger here, not the war in Iraq. Infact, it may very well be that Bush's policies set back this movement by focusing the peoples anger on the US instead of internal unpleasantness. I don't know the answer, nor does anyone else - but rooting for American foriegn policy failures or cheering Hezbollah backed protesters certainly does not make the progressive movement in the US more attractive to most Americans.

Imajika

[Rockerdem]

63. We are too used to the media distorting things

I watched Anderson Cooper gushing about the spread of democracy in the Middle East. He sounded like Condi Rice, only with wetter panties. He wandered around the demonstration selecting English speaking people saying: We love America, We want to kiss/hug Americans, blah blah blah. It was a PNAC propaganda event worthy of Jeff Gannon.

[Colorado Blue]

64. Thank you for your post. I agree with your observations. It

is saddening, and confusing, to pick up these vibes - almost that we would LIKE to see a disaster in Lebanon, or find that we or our allies were responsible for the death of Hariri - and meanwhile that we are unable to enjoy the possibility that the people of the Middle East might someday live in a happier world.

It does seem somewhat irrational to prefer the pro-Syrian factions or Hezbollah over the other voices of the Lebanese people.

It is to be hoped that Lebanon will remain at peace, yes?

[w4rma]

65. Folks just don't like to be manipulated so the knee jerk reaction is to

treat the position of the manipulators negatively and the position opposite of their's more positively.

It's nothing more than that.

Personally, I don't understand the situation down there, but I do think that these demonstrations probably won't matter one way or another, in the end, except to get more folks from both sides more involved.