Slain Agent Had U.S. Operation Permission (Berlusconi)

[leftchick]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050309/ap_on_re_eu/italy_iraq_hostage&cid=518&ncid=1480


In his first major address since Friday's shooting strained relations between Washington and one of its biggest allies, told Italy's Senate that the car carrying agent Nicola Calipari and hostage Giuliana Sgrena stopped immediately when a light was flashed. The U.S. military has said the Americans used hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots to try to get the car to stop.


Friendly fire is "painful" to accept, Berlusconi said. But he reassured lawmakers that the United States is committed to determining the truth about the shooting.


"I'm sure that in a very short time every aspect of this will be clarified," he said.

<snip>

"The case of friendly fire is certainly the most painful to bear. It feels like an injustice beyond any sentiment. It's something unreasonable," Berlusconi said.

[BrklynLiberal]

2. "Friendly fire" that kills you sure is an oxymoron, isn't it?

"But he reassured lawmakers that the United States is committed to determining the truth about the shooting."

I do not have a lot of confidence in the quality of the "truth" that this administration tends to uncover.

[bemildred]

3. So, like, are Italians going to buy this "let's talk it away" bullshit? nt

[leftchick]

4. I doubt it....

unlike AmeriKans they don't sit on their asses and believe everything their TV and corrupt politicians tell them.

[gorgan]

24. maybe but...

you'd still have to explain why Berlusconi has this job, a second time, after being implicated in massive fraud. He controls the media in that country, so perhaps Italians aren't so immune from its sway.

[leftchick]

27. he does not control all of the media in Italy..

most but not all.

[gorgan]

28. Perhaps enough then if not all

3 commercial TV channels
Political sway at RAI
1 newspaper
1 large publisher

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/24/1532204

[leftchick]

31. guess what?

I read democracy now as well! welcome to DU.

[Frederik]

60. Most newspapers

are not controlled by him. And I don't think the Italians are going to accept any bullshit about this. Calispari has become something of a national hero, it seems, and Sgrena is also popular, while the popularity of the war is at an all-time low. Besides, regional elections coming up in a couple of months, which I'm sure Berlusconi is very aware of.

[chomskysright]

19. don't forget: Berscolini is Bush's buddy and....

if the stink is profound enough, he will go down in Italy

[underpants]

5. See I knew I shouldn't have trusted McClellan on this one

When will I ever learn?

[Ms. Clio]

6. So yet another aspect of the Pentagon's version is refuted

Shocking.

[reality based]

7. Friendly Fire

is one of the great military traditions (death of Stonewall Jackson) which The New Confederacy would like to share with our noble allies.

[robbo2356]

8. Here is another link to the story

Italy disputes US hostage account

Berlusconi was among hundreds to attend Nicola Calipari's funeral
Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has said the car carrying an Italian agent killed by US fire had stopped immediately a light flashed....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4333839.stm

[It was not a pretzel]

9. So you've got a VERY EXPERIENCED secret agent

who'd already got several hostages freed in Iraq, and he runs an American roadblock like some fucking amatuer in a B movie?

Yeh right. I believe you :dunce:

[cthrumatrix]

the truth has been a difficult commodity since 911..wonder why?

[Javaman]

10. Berlusconi is an embarrassment to my Italian heritage...

[DemoTex]

11. Who runs the Baghdad airport? The US military.

Who allowed the Italian corporate jet to land at the Baghdad airport? The US military. Who guarded the Italian jet as it sat on the tarmac, fueled and catered for the trip back to Rome, waiting for the imminent arrival of the car carrying agent Nicola Calipari and hostage Giuliana Sgrena? The US military. The presence of the Italian aircraft at the Baghdad airport is prima facie evidence that the US military knew that a car carrying Giuliana Sgrena would soon be coming down that road to rendezvous with that jet. That should be the main talking point here. Believe me, the presence of that jet at the Baghdad airport was a big, big deal.

[DELUSIONAL]

12. kick

[TahitiNut]

16. Custer Battle got the contract originally.

'Nuf said? (They're an 'alleged' criminal enterprise, 'allegedly' defrauding the taxpayers of hundreds of millions.)

[LibertyorDeath]

18. I'm on the same page but some aren't can you critique this

I don't know enough to know is this complete BS or what ?


MikeS (80 posts) Wed Mar-09-05 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
29. Air Traffic is Controlled from Doha

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1296044#1296661



Control of Airspace and Landing Rights in IRaq is very complicated. All US-certified commercial air carriers are forbidden to fly into Iraq by Special FAR 77. Control of Airspace and landing rights is normally controlled by a nations Civil Aviation Authority. Unfortunately, most of the Iraqi control system is still being rebuilt.

That leaves all airspace control still in American military hands. The USCENTCOM airspace control in Doha, Dubai attempts to control things in the entire AOR. That includes giving permission to all US military flights, all coalition flights, and all foreign airline flights into Iraq. However, not all flight information is passed to USCENTCOM in a timely fashion and radar coverage over Iraq is still spotty in places.

An Italian government aircraft might have flown directly to Bagdad without waiting for clearance from Doha. Or it might have been sitting at Bagdad for weeks. In either case, there is no special reason for the ATC folks at Doha to pass anything to the Army command structure unless they were specifically asked to do so. If the Italians were running their own show, the Army might not have known there was an Italian aircraft on the ground because the Air Force personnel in Dubai didn't see a need to tell them. That would explain why the Italians might say they coordinated with the Americans, but the Army was clueless.

And if the Army command structure didn't know much about the operation, it's very unlikely that any 3ID elements tasked that night on the airport road knew anything in advance.

[DemoTex]

23. Good points. The aircraft might have flown in agent Nicola Calipari ..

But consider this. Agent Nicola Calipari is said to have been on his cell phone talking with Prime Minister Berlusconi in Rome at the time of the attack. That establishes that he had a working cell phone. I think it is fair to say that Calipari made other calls on his cell phone on the ride to the airport and in the days prior to the event. He probably checked with the pilots of the Italian jet to make sure the airplane was ready for a hasty departure from Baghdad.

US military aircraft, such as the Army RC-12, have the capability to intercept and DF (locate) cell phone calls. The USAF and Navy have aircraft capable of similar COMINT, SIGINT, and ELINT (communication, signal, and electronic intelligence). These aircraft are "up" 24/7.

Calipari and hostage Giuliana Sgrena were certainly persons-of-interest to the US government and the US military. I think that it is highly likely that Calipari was being watched "electronically," if not physically too. Perhaps the check-point did not get the word. Fog of war. Perhaps they did. Perhaps it was not really a check-point. It is pretty much an academic argument because, given the well-honed secrecy of the Bu$h regime, we will probably never know.

[LibertyorDeath]

40. Thanks DemoTex good insight

"US military aircraft, such as the Army RC-12, have the capability to intercept and DF (locate) cell phone calls. The USAF and Navy have aircraft capable of similar COMINT, SIGINT, and ELINT (communication, signal, and electronic intelligence). These aircraft are "up" 24/7.

Calipari and hostage Giuliana Sgrena were certainly persons-of-interest to the US government and the US military. I think that it is highly likely that Calipari was being watched "electronically,"

[nolabels]

64. Effing Berlusconi is probably the one who told em set em up or.........

at least gave that approval for the hit. Something tells me the that Berlusconi is a very bad liar. Don't know too much about that Berlusconi guy but for some reason....

[Frederik]

61. Nevertheless

Berlusconi contends that Calipari was on the phone with an Italian official just befor the incident, and that the Italian official was standing next to an American colonel at the airport. And Calispari had made the necessary contacs with American officials the same day. They had also received a "green light" to drive in to the airport. That doesn't mean the troops manning an "improvised/tactical" checkpoint 700 metres from the airport knew, of course, but evidently the US military weren't kept out of the loop from any negligence on the Italians' part.

[Turley]

20. Disagree

It's worth reading LibertyorDeath's post (#17) which seems to have current info on Iraq.

Aside from that, I've been in units that pulled security for airfields within wider theaters of operations. Did it in '95-96 in Eastern Europe. We had all kinds of missions going through with varying degrees of secrecy. The fact is, the mere presence of an aircraft owned by a foreign service doesn't mean squat.

That's the whole idea behind secrecy......keeping things secret. If you tell the Army, the Air Force, and all their subordinated units (like the Joes manning the checkpoints) then it's not exactly a secret anymore, is it?

I worked in a tactical operations center where a full-bird Colonel owned the entire airfield. I gurantee there were times when someone called him and said a bird's gonna land at such and such time. Let him land, refuel, whatever, and see him on his way. Fact is, we do shit like that all the time.

[0007]

53. I would have to believe that John Negroponte knew exactly

what was going on with Ms Sgrena at all times during her stay in Iraq. Ms Sgrena had much information that Negroponte didn't want out about Fallujah.

To say that this was one big mistake is to say that the U.S. is weaker than it appears.

[Dhalgren]

71. And it has now come out that the troops who did the hit

were soldiers from Negroponte's personal body guard. That puts a lot of the "confused soldiers who didn't know" ideas into a cocked hat...

[0007]

74. I'm not to speed on the lastest, but if true this will put the

"Death Squad Master" and the Iran'Contra convict in the spot light with junior for sure.

[The_Casual_Observer]

13. US GIs are totally out of control, they don't appear to be following

any rules. This is simply a case where they got caught doing something they do all the time. The same kind of thing happened while they were filming a roadblock on "Frontline", they opened up on a car that was probably 200 yards from the checkpoint because the car didn't stop at that distance. They shoot into the air as some kind of a warning to stop and that's all they do before they shoot to kill.

[IndianaGreen]

29. The whole of Iraq is a "free fire zone" for our military

Remember that famous line from "Full Metal Jacket" by the gunner in the helicopter? It went something like this: if they run, they are VC. It they stand still, they are well trained VC.

[Emboldened Chimp]

14. Oh, hi there! [BLAT]

Nice to see you again (BLAT-BLAT). How are the wife and kids? (BLAT) Have a nice day! :nuke:

[DemoTex]

15. I just sent an e-mail to Keith Olberman based on info in this thread.

Kicked and nominated.

:kick:

[confludemocrat]

17. He said... he was certain the US "has no intention of evading the truth".

From the story.

What are Italians saying about the certainty of such an honest man as Berlusconi in certifying the honesty of the occupying power that routinely "lights up" cars with Iraqi families in them? My head's about to explode! How much more of this can we take?

[DulceDecorum]

21. if the US wanted her dead she would have died like Osama

and Saddam
and Castro
and Chavez
and Aristide
and Obiang Nguema of Equatorial Guinea.

They had really big guns there.
Someone isn't telling the truth.

[sr_pacifica]

25. If an assassination

My guess would say Calipari, the agent, was the target, rather than Sgrena. If indeed ransoms have been paid, the U.S. wanted to get rid of someone who was "too good" at his job and who they saw as helping finance the insurgency. It's suspicious that he died by a well-placed shot (to the temple). Just my 2 cents worth of theory.

[IndianaGreen]

30. The US military are the only liars in this story

The rightwing meme that Sgrena would have been dead if the military wanted her dead is getting as tiresome as the bloggers' posting of the picture of a car belonging to an Iraqi that was shot by the kidnappers of Sgrena during the kidnapping, and passing that photo as the car that was carrying Nicola Calipari and Sgrena.

The One That Got Reported, by Steve Bell:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stevebell/archive/0,14955,1284265,00.html

[NYC]

35. Thanks, Indiana Green.

I wondered what that car was. I hope that is not the only car they are shipping to Italy.

[NNN0LHI]

22. Our Italian puppet had better watch what he says

Or he will be pulled out of some spider hole in the near future for the enjoyment of American cable news viewers. Who does this guy think he is anyway? Doesn't he realize that all those U.S. military bases are not scattered all over Italy for nothing. They are there because Italy is still under U.S. occupation. And them Italians had better not forget that.

Don

[sr_pacifica]

26. Berlusconi

is doing his dance---appearing tough, but if he was really sincere about getting to the bottom of this,he would demand the investigation be led by a more objective party than a U.S. Army brigadier general.

[daleo]

32. This is an interesting claim by Berlusconi.

He may be a Bush poodle, but his saying that the car had stopped (and not drove through any checkpoint, whether 'tactical' or not) is important. After all, I have heard he was supposed to be on the cell phone to the agent at that exact time, so his claim may be first had evidence. At a minimum, it would establish that this was no case of shooting a potential car bomb in self defense. That leaves either assasination or the most egregious form of incompetence.

[bemildred]

33. He may be stuck with that:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1294423&mesg_id=1295135&page=

[daleo]

34. It will be interesting to see if they try to backtrack from the account.

If so, I think Bersculoni will claim "a bad translation" or mis-communication. I think it depends on how much he believes the Italian people will punish him at the polls if he sucks up to Bush.

[bemildred]

36. Yeah, it's a practical matter.

It's a bit early to be calling the accounts of his own agents
on the scene lies. It think it's going to be stall, stall, stall
until they think a sanitized version can be floated. It's still
a while until the election, and Berscolini will do everything he
can to induce sedation and amnesia, and no annoying facts will
be allowed to intrude if it's up to him. If the Italians forget
or let him get away with it I expect they deserve him as much as
we deserve Bush.

That account there is the strongest evidence I've seen that it was
a planned hit, at the command level at least, although I can't say
I'm 100% convinced.

Did you read that the car pictures were not THE car? I guess we are
still looking for pictures of THE car.

[daleo]

38. I read about one set of phony car pictures.

That was the beat up old Fiat looking car, that had the grill smashed in. It was identified as a fake by RW bloggers.

I haven't heard anything new about the other set of car photos (a set of six from an Italian newspaper website that were supposedly of the 'death car').

My opinion of what the truth actually is in this case is strongly conditioned by the fact that there has been no inquiry worthy of the name, no interviews with the 'accidental shooters', nothing. Maybe that will change.

[bemildred]

39. I saw a post here today that said:

That the six pics were of the car she was kidnapped from,
not the one shot up Friday. No confirmation, but it fits better
with it's appearance.

[daleo]

73. Interesting. I will be on the lookout for something along those lines.

Like you say, it would fit with the other details better.

[CoffeeCat]

37. Soooo...

...each and every one of those 300-400 bullets was "friendly fire"?

Riiiiiiiight.

/sarcasm off

[Oilwellian]

41. Italian Leader Says U.S. Knew of Rescue Plan

ROME, March 9 -- U.S. military officials in Iraq had approved an Italian intelligence officer's mission to free a kidnapped journalist and were expecting their arrival at Baghdad's airport on Friday when U.S. soldiers opened fire on the Italians at a checkpoint, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said Wednesday.

In a speech, Berlusconi provided new details of how the Italians worked over the past month to free journalist Giuliani Sgrena from her Iraqi kidnappers, only to have the effort end in the death of the Italian intelligence officer who arrived in Baghdad that day to receive her from her captors.

The prime minister's remarks, building on a statement Tuesday by Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini, showed that his government is determined to challenge the U.S. version of the Italian's death, which has strained relations between the two countries.

More here.

[caligirl]

42. How can I continue to give them the benefit of the doubt?

Born in military hospital, raised on miliary bases and married military, but I am having a tough time with this and giving them the benefit of the doubt. I think they did this one deliberatly.

[EFerrari]

It would be as easy as not forwarding a report.

Our kids get blamed.

The Cabal is desecrating the uniform.

[AussieInCA]

44. Pretty damning evidence coming out, Why the rush to denial is the question

"With the inside light on, Calipari sat alongside Sgrena and made phone calls to superiors to report his success. One was to an Italian official who was standing next to an American colonel at the airport, the prime minister said Wednesday, addressing the Italian Senate.

Calipari "therefore warned the American military officials of their immediate arrival in the airport zone," Berlusconi said.

"Only a frank and reciprocal recognition of final responsibility" will assuage Italians' anguish over the shooting, "which was so irrational to us," Berlusconi said.

U.S. Army Gen. George W. Casey, the top American commander in Iraq, said Tuesday in Washington that he had been unaware on Friday that Italian officials had entered Iraq to rescue Sgrena and said he had heard nothing since to indicate the Italians had told U.S. forces of the car's route."

[Straight Shooter]

43. Let's not hear any more from the U.S. about "speeding"

Fini, citing testimony by the driver, also an intelligence officer, said Tuesday that the car was traveling at no more than 25 mph as the driver steered around concrete blocks. Fini said the driver was applying the brakes when the car was hit by gunfire that lasted 10 to 15 seconds.

10 to 15 seconds. That's an eternity when you're being deliberately shot at, no matter what reason the shooters may have.

[EC]

45. I really don't think those were American SOLDIERS,

they were a clean-up squad...I still think it has more to do with the kidnapping and who the kidnappers were, and the reason for the kidnapping was to keep her quite about Filujah (sp) they were probably cleaning up while she was being held, for deniablity when her report comes out...

[caligirl]

good point, also a french reporter was working on the Falluja

story and was kidnapped this week. Right?

[flordehinojos]

who stands to lose the most if the reality of what happened in fallujah

comes out? ... i tend to think it would be bush and our all american boys.

[jbnow]

I think they were soldiers

who thought they were shooting someone else. If it were shooters out to assassinate this group, they'd have finished. Just having them on the phone with Italy wouldn't stop the assassination, in fact there were more problems letting her live through it then finishing her off.

They were clearly out to assassinate or stop someone...there was no threat to them, no warning before the shootings as far as we know. I think they had just been told this vehicle that was coming had something/someone, a terrorist/suicide bomber and to shoot on sight and take no chances.

That would explain them stopping without "completing the job" and explain why they would frisk and take their phones and check things out before getting them help, to see if they were who they said they were.

Would the soldiers say something or keep their mouth shut about the erroneous warning/

OK, just my theory because it is the only thing that puts the contradictory parts together. If this was it, the story would make sense...and the question would be where the order to shoot that vehicle came from.

[Disturbed]

Another theory

Another poster wrote this: The target was successfully taken out. They weren't after the reporter.

[DoYouEverWonder]

1. I believe the US has admitted to shooting

It's their reasons that are in question.

[Turley]

46. Repubblica has photos of the car

Don't flame me to death. I'm not up to arguing this ad nauseum. But it seems clear that Sgrena's own accounts of the event are wildly inflated. Pretty obviously this car wasn't hit with 300-400 rounds of anything, much less ordinance from a Bradley. The notion that she picked up handfuls of bullets from the backseat also seems, well, ridiculous.

Anyhoo, judge for yourself.

[DoYouEverWonder]

47. Notice they don't show pictures of the right side or back of the car

these pictures don't prove much of anything, only that some of the shots hit the left side of the car.

Besides there is speculation that a lot of the rounds may have been shot around the car to create noise and confusion, giving cover for a sharp shooter to hit his target.

[Turley]

48. Come on now

Republicca highlights the bullet holes. If there was damage on the right side they would have put blue circles around that too.

Unless you think the Italian Press is in on the conspiracy.

[DoYouEverWonder]

49. Just because Republicca published the pictures

doesn't mean anything.

Who took the pictures is more important. It appears that the car is still in Iraq and that US troops are preparing the car to transport it. I would assume then that it was US that took the pictures.

Regardless, these pictures by themselves don't prove much of anything.

[Turley]

50. Well maybe it's just me

but I think it proves fairly conclusively that the car was not shot with 300-400 rounds from a Bradley.

I know I have the unpopular position here, but the photos do rather support the troops' account that they fired small arms at the vehicle to stop it (front tire, drivers window).

If they had wanted to blow it away, it would have looked a lot different.

[DoYouEverWonder]

51. They also claimed to have shot up the engine block

but there are no bullets in the hood of the car or in the front grill?

Try again.

[leftchick]

54. I highly doubt that is even the car....

we won't know for sure for quite a while.

[Turley]

55. My Italian

is limited to entrees on the menu.

Maybe one of our more linguistically talented DUers can read the article and report back to us?

[DoYouEverWonder]

57. If it is the car, it has obviously been clean up a bit

considering that one guy got his brains blown out in it and two other people were injured, one with shrapnel. You would think there would be at least a little bit of blood and gore?

[leftchick]

62. and a few more bullet holes?

:eyes:

[Julius Civitatus]

65. This is a completely DIFFERENT CAR from the one the American media

displayed a few days ago. I distinctly remember US media sources producing photos of a completely different car a few days ago. The other car was a small beater, a white color shitbox that looked like it had a bump in the front and no bullet holes anywhere.

Does anyone else remember?

[Turley]

66. That was debunked

it was apparently the car she was abducted from.

[Julius Civitatus]

67. Thanks for the correction

There's so much disinformation these days it's difficult to know who is not openly deceiving you.

[daleo]

75. I heard it was a nearby Iraqi's car, damaged during the kidnapping.

An innocent bystanders car, so to speak.

[leftchick]

52. updated a little more....

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050310/ap_on_re_eu/italy_iraq_hostage


<snip>
ROME - Disputing Washington's version of events, Italy's premier said that an Italian intelligence agent who was shot to death by U.S. troops in Baghdad had informed the proper authorities that he was heading to the airport with a freed hostage.



Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi also told lawmakers that the car carrying agent Nicola Calipari and a just-liberated hostage was traveling slowly and stopped immediately when a light was flashed at a checkpoint, before U.S. troops fired on the car.


Though the U.S. and Italian versions of what happened Friday do not match up, "I'm sure that in a very short time every aspect of this will be clarified," Berlusconi said.


<snip>

The premier said Calipari had notified an Italian liaison officer, waiting at the Baghdad airport along with an American officer, that he was on his way with the freed hostage, journalist Giuliana Sgrena.


However, the top U.S. general in Iraq has said he had no indication that Italian officials gave advance notice of the route the Italians' car was taking. In a statement released after the shooting, the U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry Division, which controls Baghdad, said the vehicle was speeding and refused to stop.

[Turley]

56. Newsday says may have been NY NG Unit

Again, just me pushing an unpopular opinion, but I doubt if the Gov't awards murder contracts to NG units.



http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-usiraq10q4170610mar10,0,973978.story?coll=ny-nationalnews-headlines

[DoYouEverWonder]

58. Even if it was just an 'accident'

a bullet shot directly in the temple of one Italy's top SS agents doesn't sound like a accident to me, but sure, shit happens.

Even if it was an accident, there must have a been a serious break down in communications and chain of command. So even if it was just an 'accident', we've still got a big problem here.

This happened to an Coalition Partner, who was in the country to pick up the hostage. He arrived that morning and rented a car. If the US let him into Baghdad, they had to be aware of him. Once he secured the hostage, him and the rest of his party were on their cell phones with government officials, including the PM of Italy. You mean to tell me, US Intel wouldn't be monitoring this guys calls during this rescue? If they weren't, something is seriously wrong.

Instead of trying to discredit the victims, why don't we look at the evidence and find out how did the US make such a 'mistake'? And if it was not a mistake, who then is responsible for this assassination?

[Turley]

59. Well you seem to have the view that

the Italians are incapable of fucking up. I know somebody fucked up. I suspect it was on both sides.

My personal theory is that the Italians were trying to keep it as quiet as possible and that turned out to be the key problem.

I might add that if the US Gov't went to the lengths that you suggest in terms of monitoring the car, they simply would have blown it away with a Predator-mounted Hellfire somewhere in the middle of the Desert.

No Car
No Witnesses
No Problem

Occam's Razor anyone?

[Bridget Burke]

68. They weren't in the middle of the desert.

Yes, the government is so good at killing their enemies--remember Osama's funeral?

Negroponte's hit squad had a window of opportunity. But there were too many decent, regular soldiers nearby for them to finish the job.

[Turley]

70. Point well taken but

Again, if it was a CIA hit squad you'd think they might ambush with, say, AK47s? It's not like it's all that difficult to find them. Or, they could have simply set up their own IED. Both of those methods would have put the blame on the insurgents.

Why in the World would they use GIs who would be possible witnesses against them? It just doesn't make sense.

[leftchick]

63. it was either Negropontes's hit squad

or Rummy's new SS branch trying out their new toys.

[nolabels]

69. I will put money on the Negropontes's hit squad

Sounds like to me they were trying to send a message to the rest of world but kind of missed the mark.

[reality based]

72. The message got delivered