'Counter-recruiters' shadowing the military

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0308Counter-Recruiter-ON.html

NEW YORK - The Marines didn't have to recruit Greg McCullough. He signed a promise to enlist last year, while he was still in high school. But now McCullough has had second thoughts, and he's talking to a different kind of recruiter.

Jim Murphy is a "counter-recruiter," one of a small but growing number of opponents of the Iraq war who say they want to compete with military recruiters for the hearts and minds of young people.

"I don't tell kids not to join the military," says Murphy, 59, a member of Veterans for Peace. "I tell them: "Have a plan for your future. Because if you don't, the military has a plan for you.' "

Since the advent of the all-volunteer military three decades ago, the armed services have used an array of tools, from recruiting in schools to TV advertising, to successfully sell careers in the military. But with ground troops in Iraq still under fire, the Army and Marines are struggling to get enough enlistments.

more

[LynnTheDem]

1. Don't forget their top tool...LIES.

And you should hear some of their whoppers.

[elemnopee]

6. yes, the lies

For instance, most students don't know that:

Two-thirds of recruits don't get any college money, according to the Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors.

Most people in the military do not have time to attend college while in the service.

To qualify for college money recruits have to pay $100 per month for a year.

The unemployment rate for veterans is three times higher than the national average.

People who sign up with the Delayed Entry Program are told they can't change their minds, but getting out is as simple as writing a letter.

The enlistment contract is for eight years.

There are other ways to finance college, like federal financial aid, private scholarships, going to community college or joining AmeriCorps.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0224-26.htm

[trogdor]

12. Well...

Two-thirds of recruits don't get any college money, according to the Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors.

Lots of people won't pay the $100/mo. to opt-in for economic reasons, even though they are STRONGLY encouraged to do so at the reception station. Lots more aren't college material in the first place. The money is there if you want it.

Most people in the military do not have time to attend college while in the service.

True. I was lucky, but I've seen lots and lots who weren't so lucky. Some commanders will use some creativity in creating opportunities for their soldiers to attend classes, such as having the instructor come to the unit and give an intensive version of the class (say, every day for two hours, with the course ending in four weeks or so), and wrapping their training schedule around that particular class, but this is NOT Army policy, just something a particular commander MIGHT do because he gives a shit about his soldiers' future.

**I might add that this unit, in the 10th Mountain Division, the most deployed division in the Army, had consistently high retention rates, far in excess of expectations.

To qualify for college money recruits have to pay $100 per month for a year.

True. The rate of return is pretty good, though, and the money comes out before taxes, so the actual cost is somewhere around $75/mo., depending on what state you came from.

The unemployment rate for veterans is three times higher than the national average.

Probably true. Contrary to what your recruiter will tell you, lots of military jobs do not translate well outside the front gate. For example, most combat medics aren't qualified on paper to put a Band-Aid on a skinned knee, even though they've been trained VERY WELL to save the lives of their fellow soldiers in highly stressful circumstances. When you leave the service, you pretty much start over as far as your post-service career is concerned. All the more reason to opt-in to the GI Bill - you can count on going back to school if you want more than a McJob when you get out.

People who sign up with the Delayed Entry Program are told they can't change their minds, but getting out is as simple as writing a letter.

False. You sign the DEP contract, you're pretty much obligated. Getting out involves proving you were enlisted under false pretenses, or that something about you, such as your medical history, prevents you from staying in.

The enlistment contract is for eight years.

True. My recruiter took great care in explaining this to me back in 1982 (when it was six years). You sign up to be on active duty for X years. You are obligated to the IRR for eight years minus X minus DEP time. This doesn't mean your recruiter will be as conscientious in completely going over your enlistment contract, especially if you are in a hurry to sign and not in the mood to listen to somebody reading several pages of small print. In short, your mileage may vary on this, and if you spend less time on this decision than you would closing a mortgage, you're hosing yourself. Parents, this is something you need to impress upon your teenage children.

**Someone please reply to this post if I am mistaken about DEP time counting against your eight year obligation.

There are other ways to finance college, like federal financial aid, private scholarships, going to community college or joining AmeriCorps.

True, but most of these ways are either hard to obtain (unless you have a 4.0, near 1600 SAT's, or your last name is Bush), or they involve LOANS, not grants. Loans are all well and good, but it would pay to choose your major carefully. I would suggest a major in some profession (engineering, law, medicine) and minor in something you actually like (art, literature, history, whatever). Chance are, you will have an actual education when you leave school. HR people appreciate that, especially for engineers, lawyers, and doctors.

It may sound like I just shotgunned your post, but this is, as far as my considerable experience informs me, the real deal. The fact remains, if you join the Army today, George Bush owns your ass, and that's not a good thing. While we're still not drafting people, it is perfectly legitimate to object to JUST THIS WAR, but hen the first ping-pong ball has been drawn, you're most likely SOL.

[elemnopee]

15. ...Well...

There are other ways to finance college, like federal financial aid, private scholarships, going to community college or joining AmeriCorps.

True, but most of these ways are either hard to obtain (unless you have a 4.0, near 1600 SAT's, or your last name is Bush), or they involve LOANS, not grants.

There are still many grants available to students from meager backgrounds, and only involve filling out a FASFA. And check out this article about Yale:

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-yale4mar04,1,6114720.story?coll=la-news-a_section

<snip>Beginning next year, families making less than $45,000 annually will no longer have to pay tuition for their children, and those earning between $45,000 and $60,000 will see their required contributions drop an average of 50%, Yale said.</snip>

The oppurtunities and money are there, but not if you put up a 1200 and 3.0 in HS (How does that demonstrate you could even handle college?).

I think many of theses students, based on my observations, already have it set in their mind they can not afford college and do not put forth a real effort.

[trogdor]

21. Perhaps.

What about people who make middle-class incomes, but spend a big chunk of their working careers making peanuts in the Army? Do financial aid people give a damn that I only started making good enough money to start saving in the past five years or so? I'd really like to send my kid to Colgate (for example), but I can't see it happening.

Any admissions officers who can answer that for me?

[elemnopee]

22. I'm not an admissions officer

I think it is completely possible, you should find out what percentage of finacial need the individual school meets. You will probably have to take out loans...that's when I posed this question to my parents: What kind of retirement home do you want to live in the 4 Seasons or Motel 6?

[trogdor]

54. I sacrifice lots for my kid.

I figure that's my job. I just want to make sure the Motel 6 will still take me when I'm done, and if I can swing Ivy League out of that (shaa, as if), I couldn't see myself just saying no without checking out my options.

[MADem]

19. Good post n/t

[KBlagburn]

17. Youre not obligated until......

Being a recent veteran, I can tell you that the DEP does not legally obligate you to anything. Not only am I a veteran but I was my recruiters landlord. You are not obligated until you are sworn into the active military. There is a big difference between DEP and active duty.

[trogdor]

55. Merci.

I'm sure that won't prevent the recruiter from putting MUCH pressure on you, appealing to your sense or morality, etc., but if that's the deal, that's the deal.

[benburch]

2. Is there an organized group I can join?

I'd love to do this a few days a month!

[Mari333]

4. Anyone can stand outside a recruiting office

with pics of the war dead and wounded..=) Hurrah for the counter recruiters...you could also have a compiled list of the cuts in vets and military benefits by the Bush admin available..

[trogdor]

56. I wonder if I could get my car keyed...

...by putting a little display inside the rear window of my car and park it right in front of their office while going to get Chinese food next door.

[liberal N proud]

3. Sounds like Murphy has saved a few kids.

[plant-fan]

5. I stand outside the Oakland recruiting office with a sign saying

1500 wasted so far
who wants next ?

My next sign will probably read "Torturers wanted. Apply today !"

Glad to know others are striking at the military's achilles heel.

[Cooley Hurd]

43. And don't forget to spit on them and call them baby killers...

...it's what "we" liberals do, riiiiight?:eyes:

[plant-fan]

44. Hey, you do what you want. I'll stand there with my sign.

It's not spitting, there are no pictures, just a count of the tools sent to their death for no reason.

What is wrong with people on this board ? Do you think a dignified silence or unlimited tears shed for people who got killed in the middle of a giant war crime is going to impress someone ? It's a goddamn joke.

Try and wrap your head around the fact the YOUR American Army is killing and torturing people who never ever threatened us. When I hear about our bloody GIs kicking wounded people in the head, I will NOT SHUT UP, no matter what you or anyone else suggests. SILENCE = DEATH.

[Cooley Hurd]

45. mmmmmmkay.

:crazy:

[Straight Shooter]

49. Hey, plant-fan, Welcome to DU

We're all a little sensitive because of the continual bashing from the right. They think they own the flag, the Bible, God, and the troops.

I agree 100 percent with your "1500 wasted" sign. I'm a little queasy about the "torture" sign; maybe you could modify it a bit and still get the point across.

Anyway, welcome to DU :hi:

[TankLV]

47. So are you saying we shouldn't tell them the truth?

What is your agenda?

YOU are the one that is putting words and ideas into people's mouths.

Why don't you go and enlist and ask for Iraq duty? Then you get to kill ragheads and all those terra-ists!

[Cooley Hurd]

48. Check yer inbox...

:hi:

[plant-fan]

53. Why not let the rest of us hear your response ?

[Cooley Hurd]

58. Maybe because it's none of your business...

:eyes:

[plant-fan]

59. mmmmmmkay !

[rocktivity]

7. Reminds me of the recruitment scene in F 9/11

Anti-war activists such as Murphy charge that to fill their quotas, some military recruiters make promises they can't guarantee, such as money for college or training in a particular specialty, and give misleading descriptions of military life.

I still laugh about the Village People disco music that played as the recruiters entered the strip mall. One kid says his main interest was in music. They immediately respond that some well-known rapper served in the military, and that his financial success is the result of the "discipline" he learned there. Then they talk about how they can "hook him up with a few things." Like what, a turntable on his armored vehicle? What will his occupational specialty be--51 Scratcher?

:headbang:
rocknation

[Ian David]

10. I almost got sucked into the Navy when I was in high school

The main things that made me change my mind:

1) They couldn't even find my preferred specialty on their list (I think it was something like "public information.")

2) They actually told me that nobody would ever ask you to do more than 25 push-ups in a row. Ever. And he expected me to believe him.

3) The recruiter who was "helping" me fill-out my application form wrote my religion as "Jew's Churches."

I kid you not. He asked my religion and I said, "I'm Jewish," so he wrote in "Jew's Churches."

That was the very moment I decided, "Fuck this."

I didn't think these were the kinds of officers I wanted to trust my life to.

[0007]

14. They also tricked my son into a phony signing and said he

couldn't get out of it when he changed his mind. It took a congressman to get things straight.

[Katherine2]

18. Recruiters were at my son's high school

for college night, and one of them approached me about my son. I told him, no way, we're fighting wars all over the place. And he actually told me, with a straight face, that you can join the army and never have to use a weapon the whole time you're in. He said you can work in an office for you entire term (or whatever it's called). I'm not such a sap, but I'm sure he could convince some unwitting kid.

[MADem]

20. Were you applying for a commission or enlisting???

The enlisted specialty that encompasses public information is JOURNALIST or PHOTOGRAPHER'S MATE. A commissioned officer is a PUBLIC AFFAIRS OFFICER, but they don't generally take them straight from civvie land. PAOs are culled from guys who have washed out of something, say, couldn't land on the carrier, too fat an ass or too long a leg to fit in the cockpit...OR, their platform gets shitcanned, and rather than transition to a new aircraft, they switch to PAO. Guys who don't like shipdriving, or who aren't real good at it, also apply to shift into that speciality, and transfer from what they were doing into public affairs.

The recruiting course is fairly extensive, and I find it worrisome that any recruiter, officer or enlisted, could possibly be that stupid. They do a whole section on the codes that are assigned (either two letters, two digits or a combination of letter/digit--there are many hundreds assigned a code) to religions groups, I seem to recall that Jewish = 36.

I'm wondering if the guy who "helped" you was a real recruiter, or just someone home on what was called the HARP (Hometown Area Recruiting Program) program (this put ordinary sailors on recruiting duty for two weeks to a month--often they used it to reward good performance, or to help a kid out who had a sick mother or something like that). Also, do you know if he was doing up a worksheet, or actually preparing your 1066 form? If the latter, that's troubling.

[trogdor]

57. Quite the contrary.

I'm sure miltary journalism is one of those "good work if you can get it" jobs that go to overqualified people because the slots for those specialties are as rare as winning lottery tickets. Those who fail the school are then shipped off to cook school (requires long hours) or supply school (requires lifting heavy shit - a lot) or whatever shit job the Navy can't fill. That's how it was in my Army AIT in 1983. Friend of mine was in finance school, failed because he couldn't do basic eighth-grade math, and wound up shipping out to cook school.

Believe me, you have to have SERIOUS qualifications to get a job in the military that's actually interesting, that requires more than two brain cells, and/or is in demand outside the front gate. Everyone wants these jobs, so they're very competitive. This much I know from experience.

[MADem]

60. Enlisted classification is based on a couple of things

The results of your medical exam (are you color blind, for example? That will rule out some assignments) and your ASVAB score, plus availability of the job in the context of your proposed or desired shipping date. If the recruiter needs BADLY to make accession goal, and you want to be, say, a postal clerk (you have to go back to the medical floor and prove that you can lift 50 lbs--to toss those mail sacks into the COD aircraft), the classifier will "DEP you out" up to 12 months, if there is even a job in the system that appeals to you. Otherwise, he or she will try REAL HARD to sell you on another job that will move you to boot camp sooner. However, unless the recruiter is working with a high school senior, they prefer to DEP and ship within three months, or less--if they can get you to go within weeks, that is better still--no buyer's remorse, no backing out, and no "DEP management" issues--keeping the kid motivated through the shipping date.

If you fail the school, any school, you don't get a second shot. You go into the ranks as a GENDET--an undesignated striker. You then get a load of crap jobs aboard your first ship, and usually end up in deck division, doing Bos'n work--which, though hard and grimy, has certain rewards once you move up the chain (if you like driving small craft and working outdoors, it is a great job). Later, you can obtain a specialty by doing on-the-job training, or working hard, getting good evaluations, and applying for an A school as you get close to your PCS. If you did poorly on the ASVAB, you can request a retake, but they don't let you take it again and again, so the clever person does a little studying to get ready for the test, and if you don't improve your score, you are pretty much fucked. If you meet the criteria, get a good endorsement from your chain of command, and there is a slot open, off you go.

Some communities are smaller than others. Public affairs/public information is one of them--very small--you just don't NEED a zillion of them, and some of their work can be assumed by civilians (cheaper to hire them than spend the money on training--you do need PHs who can work with classified material, and combat photographers in uniform, but even that is going away--anyone can cart a lipstick camera atop a kevlar helmet, and anyone can get a clearance). Religious Programs is another small program, Musicians as well.

The truth of the matter is, if it doesn't put ordnance on target, it ain't shit to the powers that be. That is the mindset of the Services nowadays--it's why they've gone to so much of the Halliburton/Brown and Root/assorted contractors scenario. The upfront costs are greater, but over the life of the evolution, be it Bosnia, Kosovo, or Iraq, it's cheaper than paying the training costs of "fresh meat" which can cost many tens of thousands of dollars (or much, more more, depending on the speciality/community) before you ever get the kid out in the field doing the job.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

23. That morAn probably saved your life with his ignorance.

Call it "Divine Inspiration" if you will. :evilgrin:

[David__77]

8. This should be an organized movement.

Two thousands activists doing this could do a lot of good. We should starve the war machine in every legal way we can.

[Betsy Ross]

9. Dress up as the grim ripper and stand outside recruiting offices. n/t

[gratuitous]

11. And the counter-recruiters . . .

Do this for free. Hmmmm.

[AndyTiedye]

13. Military Recruiting Is Likely To Be Haunted by the Ghost of Jason Tharp

Nineteen-year-old Jason Robert Tharp of Sutton, West Virginia, died on February 8th.

Officials say Jason entered the pool voluntarily the day he died and that he was swimming the 25 meter requirement. They say Marines on hand took immediate action to rescue and resuscitate Jason.

WIS News 10 caught on videotape an interaction between Tharp and a drill instructor on February 7th. The video shows a drill instructor yanking Tharp by the shirt and giving him a forearm one day before the recruit died.
<snip>

"After he got there he found out he wasn't cut out for the Marine life. We knew that before he went in," Jason Tharp's father says. A drill instructor says Jason was being belligerent and refusing to train. He also said Jason wanted out.

<snip>

A scholarship fund has been set up to honor Jason Tharp's memory by his former school district. Contributions to the fund should be sent to:
Jason Tharp Memorial Scholarship Fund
Braxton County Board of Education
411 North Hill Road
Sutton, West Virginia 26601
ATTN: Treasurer

http://www.wistv.com/global/story.asp?s=2992336&ClientType=Printable

[0007]

16. I do fear that the draft is near!

[Moderator]

24. kick to combine threads

[rodeodance]

25. 'Counter-recruiters' shadowing the military

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=5&u=/usatoday/20050308/ts_usatoday/counterrecruitersshadowingthemilitary


'Counter-recruiters' shadowing the military

Tue Mar 8,11:49 AM ET



By Rick Hampson, USA TODAY

The Marines didn't have to recruit Greg McCullough. He signed a promise to enlist last year, while he was still in high school. But now McCullough has had second thoughts, and he's talking to a different kind of recruiter.

Jim Murphy is a "counter-recruiter," one of a small but growing number of opponents of the Iraq (news - web sites) war who say they want to compete with military recruiters for the hearts and minds of young people. (Related story: For Guard recruiters, a tough sell)

"I don't tell kids not to join the military," says Murphy, 59, a member of Veterans for Peace. "I tell them: 'Have a plan for your future. Because if you don't, the military has a plan for you.' "

S......

Anti-war activists such as Murphy charge that to fill their quotas, some military recruiters make promises they can't guarantee, such as money for college or training in a particular specialty, and give misleading descriptions of military life........

[rodeodance]

26. hope there are lots and lots of these good folk!!

[BrklynLiberal]

27. What a great idea. I also hope there are lots and lots of these people

out there. A nationwide alternative-to-the-military movement would be wonderful!

[AllegroRondo]

28. Didn't a group of high school kids do something similar?

the school was having a 'career day', and one of the booths was the US military. The kids set up a table nearby to counter the propaganda.

[cdb]

29. Veterans give this credibility

Vets usually handg to the right... but some of them actually spit out the Kool Aid and think for themselves in spite of the brainwashing. Great to see this.

What if they had a war and nobody came?

[Damien]

30. that rocks

[maggiecleveland]

31. If the US had no military

would it still be safe?

[DBoon]

32. people always fight bravely to defend their own country

It's invading another country for its oil that they tend to question

[Kimber Scott]

34. If all of our military personnel are sent to far-off lands to fight

for major corporations in wars of empire, are we still safe?

[MisterP]

35. still? we're not safe NOW

[maggiecleveland]

36. I felt pretty safe going to the store

and getting creamer and bread this afternoon (cold! but safe)

[physioex]

37. But has the president made this country safe....

In the sense that we aren't creating new terrorists?

[maggiecleveland]

38. Don't know....

My world is just a small area, only thing I can comment on....

[physioex]

40. I been around many folks with that same mentality......

Send us a postcard.

[Griffy]

50. if you wait till you can see them.. its too late..

we ARE creating more terrorists everday.. it is our policies that they are angry at, not our freedom. NO military solution will stop the will of our enemies, and unless you think we should nuke at least a third of the world we need to stop bush and neocons PNAC plans. We are all connected, and no matter where you live in the world you will suffer, if not sooner... later.

[LanternWaste]

41. Hmmm...

In a word, No. Although I'm not aware of anything in the article that would prompt such a question.

After readng the article, there doesn't seem to be anyone quoted or referenced re: dismantling the U.S. military-- only some citizens concerned that the potential recruits are being mislead and merely show them the other side of the coin.

As for me, I think the more people know about the consequences of a decision, they more likely they are to make a better choice.

[Beacho]

33. Wasn't there a military on 911?

How safe is our country when our military is used as a goon squad for corporate interests overseas?(Look up 'Smedley Butler")

[Joanne98]

39. Good for them.

[brentspeak]

42. Do military recruiters ever go to College Republican meetings?

Because I'm sure they'll find a lot of willing recruits there...

:eyes:

[B Calm]

46. As soon as the Bush Twins sign up, I'm sure College Age Republicans

will be standing in line at the recruiters office.

[rodeodance]

51. "shadow insurgents"??

[Jimbo S]

52. Nah, only find chickenhawks n/t