Roadblock death: Italy didn't alert U.S. troops

[Turley]

Seattle Times article quotes anonymous US military figure saying Italy did not coordinate move with ground units.

Have not seen this posted yet.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002199261_usitaly07.html

[leftchick]

1. this makes me want to vomit....

good little bush** puppet boy...


<snip>
An Italian Cabinet member urged Sgrena, who writes for a communist newspaper that routinely opposes U.S. policy in Iraq, to be cautious in her accounts and said the shooting would not affect Italy's support for the Bush administration.

"I understand the emotion of these hours, but those who have been under stress in the past few weeks should pull themselves together and avoid saying nonsense," Communications Minister Maurizio Gasparri said.

Gasparri also said the shooting would not affect Italian support for efforts to secure postwar Iraq.

"The military mission must carry on because it consolidates democracy and liberty in Iraq," he said.

[Binka]

3. I'm Watching The Funeral Live

Been crying nonstop for over an hour. Gasparri is a fascist fuck. IMHO this is going to cost Berlu and he might be pushed to get out of Iraq. YYMV but I think things are about to change for Italy.

[leftchick]

4. I certainly hope so...

for Italy's sake...

[DoYouEverWonder]

11. I suppose the silver lining to this story

is that a lot more people will learn the truth about what is really going on in Iraq now. Thank god, Guiliana lived to continue to tell her story.

[Straight Shooter]

32. leftchick, we need vomatoriums in the United States, like in old Rome

Except it isn't for excess eating, it's because we're regularly fed a diet of nauseating news.

"The military mission must carry on because it consolidates democracy and liberty in Iraq."

As I said before, Mussolini is dance, dance, dancing in his grave.

[rocktivity]

42. Sgrena should be "cautious" in her accounts?

As long as she's "truthful" in her accounts, what's the problem?

:headbang:
rocknation

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

74. "Histrionic Personality disorder"

LOL, that's rich. Is that like "official"?

[rocktivity]

79. A response to one of MY posts was deleted? This is a first--and an honor!

Of course, you can be sure that the MSM will start trotting out "experts" who will suggest that Sgrena is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome or post traumatic stress disorder or something like that. I remember that a NY Times op-ed writer "diagnosed" Anita Hill with some weird disease that made her imagine that people were in love with her!

On edit: I found it, I found it! The disease was erotomaia!

:headbang:
rocknation

[bemildred]

87. Congratulations, you get the "Freedom Medal".

:party:

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

116. Hmmmm, that just sounds so eerily familiar

Like a talking point, even.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence, though.

[IndianaGreen]

149. It is a rightwing talking point, and the meme is: US troops don't shoot...

It is a rightwing talking point, and the meme is: US troops don't shoot civilians on purpose.

Joe Scarborough kicked one of his guests off the air today because he wouldn't repeat the rightwing meme. John Nichols of The Nation made the mistake of saying that one had no way of knowing if US troops purposely shoot civilians, or reporters.

[Ms. Clio]

160. Did he really? What a fucking pussy

They are growing desperate--the air is full of the sour scent of fear. Only freepers and fools believe that civilians and reporters are never deliberately targeted.

[IndianaGreen]

161. Scarborough will replay at 3:00 AM ET

Pretty disturbing to see on TV the same shit we have been seeing in DU since Friday: a lot of coercion to get people to accept the Pentagon version without question. If appeals to patriotism fails, then they accuse the skeptics of hating the troops, hating America, or being downright communist sympathizers.

[Ms. Clio]

175. It is incredibly disturbing, and I am having a hard time not responding

with profanities. After everything that has happened in the past four years, why are we the bad guys for doubting the military version of these events?

[b...]

203. because you're a traiterous pinko hippie!

duh!

[Ms. Clio]

205. Oh, that's it--I knew there had to be a reason!

:D

[ninkasi]

178. It's eerily similar

to many of the same type posts I read yesterday. Guess it's just a coincidence that so many new people see things we don't, huh?

[Ms. Clio]

179. So glad it wasn't just me who noticed that very thing n/t

[bemildred]

118. There is no problem with Ms Sgrena.

The problem is where is the car, and where did it get shot up,
and what exactly happened, with evidence to support it. She is
NOT REQUIRED to explain what happened to her. She was riding
in a car, freed from kidnapping, in the back, on the floor. And
the car and her protector were shot up. She does not need to
explain that. She does not need to provide evidence as to what
happened. The guys that ordered the car shot up do.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

124. Bullshit.

She didn't shoot anybody, she didn't do anything to anybody,
she doesn't have to explain squat. Her story has not changed
a lick and all this lying crap that it has is just that, lying
crap. She is a released, injured hostage that had her rescuer
shot to death on top of her, and it is both crass and dishonest
to say that she should testify like a coached witness in a
malpractice suit, and tacky too.

[Chomskyite]

128. Spell out the specifics for us

You say her story has changed. Give us quotes and links to where those quotes come from. Should be easily done. I'll track this space to see if you bother.

I won't hold my breath, though.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

152. This sentence:

"The Americans shone a flashlight at the car and then fired between 300 and 400 bullets at if from an armoured vehicle."

That is not quoting Ms Sgrena. It is coming from "Italian intelligence".
You don't have to be "going fast" to almost lose control dodging potholes.

What Ms Sgrena has said is perfectly consistent.

[Chomskyite]

156. Sorry, I don't see the contradictions

What you have pointed out here are merely semantic shadings. You take dodging mudholes to mean driving too fast. You take her saying they'd gotten through all checkpoints to be a contradiction of the "tactical checkpoint" she says she saw later. Sorry, I can't make the leap to "can't keep her story straight."

Your own attempts to torture contradictions out of these points speaks volumes, though. You've inadvertently revealed a lot here. And I'm grateful you took the time.

[Ms. Clio]

130. Why so much hostility against the victim?

It's unseemly. Really unattractive. Especially in a "newbie."

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

157. They didn't give her medical attention for as long as 20 minutes

And of course, U.S. troops never deliberately harm civilians, do they?

Well, enjoy your stay.

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

173. The airport was less than half a mile away

So why would it take 20 minutes to get medical help? That's pretty weak.

We are not talking about your small town. And last time I had a minor fire scare at my house, it didn't take 20 minutes for the fire trucks to arrive.

So who tortured all those men, women, and children in Abu Ghraib, if troops never deliberately harm civilians?

[bemildred]

159. Soldiers just follow orders.

I know lots of soldiers.
It's the guys that give the orders we have a problem with.
You can't be dumb enough to think the good old USA doesn't
try to kill people it doesn't like? What do you think all that
military hardware is for? I'm sure the soldier did everything
they could for her, once they were ordered to.

[cubschicago]

131. I am a translator

So I know that the only thing that is changing is translations of the same words. In fact, I translate Italian - her story hasn't changed. The only thing changing is the American translation.

[catzies]

142. Thank you cubschicago and welcome to DU!

You do bring up an important point, one that is easily dismissed by the other side as "changing her story."

:hi:

[illuminaughty]

188. grazie e benvenuto a DU

Questa situazione mi fa male. Ho vergonga di essere American in questo tempo.

[Karenina]

191. Welcome to DU, Cubschicago!!!

With the arrival of our *Rapid Response Typists and their text-torturing, I've been munching popcorn for 3 DAYS simply watching and waiting for someone, ANYONE to make the TRANSLATION point. :silly: THANK YOU!!!

[Undercover Owl]

147. dragonlady56:

"She IS required to come up with an explanation of why her story keeps changing..."

She isn't required to do SHIT, after what she's been through, escaping a bullet to the head only because someone took the bullet for her.
No matter what her story is, she doesn't have to explain it to YOU!

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rocktivity]

121. If she's lying, let's see the car.

And if there was no coordination between the Italian and U.S. governments, let's see the records of the cell phones that were confiscated; and let's start the court martial of whoever allowed the landing of the Italian plane at the Baghdad airport which was supposed to take her home.

I've never said this wasn't an accident. I just don't see why I should take less stock in two eyewitness accounts than in an anonymously leaked "official" explanation, plus what appears to be deliberately concealed evidence.

:headbang:
rocknation

[bemildred]

125. Indeed, let's see the car. Did it evaporate? nt

[chlamor]

136. In Case Your Wondering

Sgrena had the goods on them, the whole bloody litany of crimes perpetrated by the swaggering Texas psychopath and his Pentagon goons. Her interviews with Falluja's refugees put her in a position to spill the beans on Bush's murderous farce and splatter the headlines across Europe with the real picture of what is going on inside Iraq.

<snip>


And what was this "truth" that Sgrena would be publishing on her return to Europe? Would it be further confirmation that the United States had used mustard gas, nerve gas and other incendiary chemicals during their assault on Falluja as Iraq's Health Ministry has already claimed? Would she verify the reports of cluster-bombs and "melted bodies found in the city, where dogs, birds, plants and all forms of life were destroyed?" Would she prove that large areas in Falluja have been excavated; (and dumped in the dessert) removing the remnants of toxic weapons that saturated the soil?

<snip>

When Sgrena was transported to the Baghdad airport everyone along the way was notified. In case you're wondering, no one simply travels the road to the airport without all points being alerted to their movements. It's the most hazardous stretch of ground on earth and no one passes without proper clearance. This means that the Pentagon's storyline is pure fiction, as time will certainly tell. They weren't overtaken by a speeding vehicle; it was a trap. The car was a mere 700 meters from the airport when Marines started pumping it full of lead in a gangland-style hit. Miraculously, Sgrena survived with only minor injuries.


http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m10208

[natrat]

196. the scummy underside of the amurican war machine to be exposed

bush needs to tell his thugs to stop targeting bystanders,,,,if it wasnt her there are numerous nothers who have been murdered by the idiot

[Julius Civitatus]

55. Berlusconi himself was on top of this one

It would be very difficult to claim Italy didn't coordinate with the USA.

The Italian secret service was on this one. The Italian prime minister, the ominous Berlusconi, was even on the phone talking to the reporter! And most importantly: their vehicle had already passed through security check into the airport safe zone!!!

[0007]

83. The only way the United States can win this one will be to attack

Ms Sgrena's veracity. Cuz we all know what the authenticity and motives of a communist newspaper is all about.

Look at the job they done on Anita Hill, and how they got public opinion on poor misunderstood Thomas. Ms Sgrena will be pegged a liar same as Anita Hill.

Tis easy to understand why the world hates us so.

[Eloriel]

98. Women are much more easily attacked on the issue of credibility

even when they're the MORE credible ones.

[shockra]

104. Exactly.

I'm glad somebody finally mentioned that.

:yourock:

[0007]

105. ....and they've only been voting since 1922 I think.

Was talking to a blue haired church lady the other day and she told that she thought no woman should ever be president. I was afraid to ask what she thought of having a black president.

[Igel]

112. Well, one version says they already passed through

the checkpoints. Another one says there were no checkpoints.

Two sides to the event, three stories (not counting the living Italian SISMI guy).

And the rumors that there was a hefty ransom involved have taken on life.

[MADem]

190. The Italians routinely pay ransom, and they make no bones

...about it. They don't trumpet it, but they don't apologize for it either. We don't pay ransom, the Israelis don't pay ransom, and the Brits do not admit to paying ransom, but other countries do not hold to our custom. And that is their SOVEREIGN right.

Hostage taking and ransoms have a long history in the Islamic world. It was a method that warlords used (and still use) to prevent things from escalating too quickly, too absurdly, and to require negotiation and cease fire. If I have your favorite uncle, or your first born son, you aren't going to come after me with guns blazing. It is custom, if you want to negotiate your way out of the situation alive, to take very good care of hostages. In history they were often kept in what were essentially gilded cages, with all of the luxuries of home, and amusements, too.

There is something VERY WRONG with the accounts of this tale. And although I am not going to rush to blame young enlisted boots on the ground, the average young soldier, unless they produce one who says "I just fucked up and lost it, and gave the order to my team to light that fucker up" by the same token I am not going to disparage, denigrate or accuse this reporter of being a liar either. She was the one getting shot at, and I think anyone who has ever been shot at can relate to how she feels--I sure as shit can.

The poster, above, who commented that this might be a specops game is probably not too far off the mark. All I can hope is that this was not the result of massive communications failure, because if it was, we have SIGNIFICANT, DANGEROUS, WORRISOME, potentially ruinous COMMAND AND CONTROL issues over there.

And if it was something else, like a deep ops game, we as a nation have completely lost our fucking way. Can democracy survive here, while our fearless leaders try to create it over there????? It is a fearful circumstance we find ourselves in....

[crowsong]

198. don't they communicate?

If they passed through checkpoints, wouldn't each checkpoint pass that info along so the next checkpoint would know a car with a certain number of passengers was coming down the road? I mean, that seems a logical way to use a series of checkpoints. Of course they could also let a "patrol" know that an important vehicle with press was coming through too.

[hector459]

78. If the US would get the hell out of Iraq, these things could never happen.

Bring the troops home, damn it!!!

[Skittles]

2. so I guess if you're not an Iraqi citizen

you can "cordinate" and "negotiate" not to be shot for no good reason

[pnutchuck]

5. Wasn't there an exec from CNN who just resigned for making the

off handed statement at a UN conference that the US seems to be targeting journalists in Iraq? Why hasn't somebody dug this guy up yet to find out where he gets his information? I can't believe the utter propaganda!!!

[chomskysright]

45. EASON JORDAN

[mountainvue]

145. He's hanging out with Sharon Stone. n/t

[Jon8503]

6. Little Different Take From The Guardian On This Subject

Italian hostage accuses US of trying to kill her as thousands mourn her rescuer
John Hooper in Rome
Monday March 7, 2005
The Guardian

The former Italian hostage who saw her rescuer shot dead at a US checkpoint in Baghdad said yesterday they might have been targeted because of US objections to Italy's policy of negotiating with kidnappers.

Giuliana Sgrena, a reporter for the far-left daily Il Manifesto, was wounded as bullets ripped into the car taking her to Baghdad airport to be flown out of Iraq.

In a vivid account, written for her newspaper, she described how Nicola Calipari, the international operations chief of Italy's military intelligence service, was shot in the head as he tried to shield her.

"I heard his last breath as he died on top of me," she wrote.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1432040,00.html

[lumpy]

13. The driver of the vehicle,

Corriere della Sera states that they were traveling at 25-30 mph contrary to claims of US military that the car was going at a fast speed. Contrary to earlier reports, US military was not aware and uncoordinated of the tranfer of the Italian party. The waters are being muddied in an attempt to suppress the truth.

[gasperc]

39. the passenger in the backseat got shot in head

not the driver, so if they were trying to stop the vehicle like they claim why shoot at the passengers?

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

129. What checkpoint?

Where was it? Where is the car? Where are the soldiers
that manned the checkpoint? What did they do and see?

Is this the secret, unlighted, off-the-road checkpoint?
The one that sounds sort of like an ambush?

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

133. The one she was shot from?

There were other checkpoints, that they had passed through,
but the checkpoint that they were shot from seems to be
mysterious. Nobody knows where it was, or where the car
went afterwards, or howcome the people in the car didn't
see it. Have you read the reports of the people in the car?
They say there was no checkpoint.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

137. The car WASN'T SPEEDING

Bravo for tenaciously sticking with the thoroughly-discredited talking points, however.

[bemildred]

140. Better.

Please see post #131 on the consistency issue.

Please see post #136 on the mystery checkpoint issue.

Several reasons why the US might want her dead have
already been advanced, and since you have read everything
I assume you know them.

It makes little to ask what I would do if charged at a checkpoint
unless it can be shown that that is what happened here. We want to
know where is the car? Where was this checkpoint? Where are the
soldiers involved and what do they have to say? What do the survivors
have to say? Until the military is forthcoming on these issues I
assume they are lying and have something to cover up.

The question about why they didn't just blow them away is a better
one. For now I think it was a sensitive operation and a certain
effect was being aimed for and they botched it. And I also think that
the soldiers involved most likely were not told what they were about.
Some here think it was special ops, but I am skeptical about that.

Edit: 135 -> 136

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

144. You don't have to waste your time here Sir, it's fine with me. nt

[JohnOneillsMemory]

187. She's been reporting US war crimes in Falluja for a while now. Simple.n/t

[illuminaughty]

189. If Ms. Sgrena lives long enough to tell what she knows

it will become apparent to all why the U.S. would want to assassinate her.

[IndianaGreen]

151. German troops did not mean to kill those Jews at Babi Yar

Obviously bad things happen in war. The guns went off by themselves. The Jews were speeding through the woods and they ignored the hand signals and the flashing lights of the SS. So sorry! Take an aspirin and you will feel better tomorrow. (/bitter sarcasm)

If Bush had been running the propaganda machine for the Third Reich, he would have most Americans fooled into thinking that there was no such thing as a Holocaust, it was all a terrible accident in the fog of war.

[chomskysright]

46. YES! The waters are intentionally being muddied also@NYT

3.7.05:

"When an Italian journalist was driven up Baghdad's airport road toward an American military checkpoint on Friday night, she was driving into a situation fraught with hazards thousands of Iraqis face every day."

John F. Burns, the writer, has chosen to spin the story such that 'gee, this is bad: this is what Iraqis get everyday." ...

which is TRUE but which misses the point: Why wasn't the driver shot dead? One might assume that if you have already passed through several check points, that they have verified that you are not a suicide bomber, etc. They intentionally aimed for the back seat of the car, I believe.

[Cicero]

53. Giuliana Sgrena says otherwise???

In her own words...

The car kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles and almost losing control to avoid them

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/il.manifesto/

Sounds like they were going pretty darn fast to me. Of course, with the condition of the roads, etc., who knows??? It's still too much "up in the air" to make any concrete conclusions.

Later,

[tlcandie]

86. That was BEFORE they got to the airport and checkpoints...

It was immediately upon her transfer from her captives NOT after they had gone a ways more into US territory.

[glaeken777]

122. still unclear

I can certainly understand the reticence we have in giving troops the benefit of the doubt after all the abuse scandals, but I must admit even I am taken aback by the amount of tinfoil haberdashery on display in all these threads. We're not talking tinfoil hats, even... there's enough idle speculation going around to build a tinfoil circus tent!

I've been eagerly reading the news (much of it coming out of Italy, not American sources), since they're doing a better job of quoting Segrena in her own words. From everything I have read, her story is far from consistent. (Perhaps she's still shaken from what happened and is still trying to put the pieces together herself. I was involved in a head-on collision with a drunk driver that almost took my life at 18, and I couldn't give a decent description of what actually happened until two days later, simply because I was THAT rattled.)

This is a very troubling story, but it will be months before everyone can dissect it and say with any degree of certainty what happened. All this talk of a coordinated hit attempt and whatnot is as irresponsible and silly as claiming that the troops were 100% justified in their reaction.

[bemildred]

127. Beautiful exposition of the talking points there.

And relatively good English too.
My congratulations to you.

Ms Sgrena doesn't have to be consistent,
the one's that shot her do, there's the
problem. They know exactly what they did,
exactly what they saw. Where are they?
Where is the car? What do the other two
survivors in the car report? Those are the
questions that need answering, not what poor
Ms Sgrena has to say.

[Ms. Clio]

138. It's really quite amazing to see

all of them scurry out of their hidey holes whenever something like this happens. Last time I saw so much activity of this nature was the day of the Iraqi "elections."

[bemildred]

141. We do seem to be geting a lot of attention tonight

with all our crazy ideas.

[Ms. Clio]

146. I really started noticing it yesterday

It just makes me wonder--but then, I'm chock full of crazy ideas. Like my firm belief that we are being fed a steady diet of lies and propaganda, and this is just the latest. Tomorrow it will be something else. And then next day, and the day after that....

[glaeken777]

201. please

You're inferring I'm a freeper, simply because I fail to share your viewpoint on ONE specific issue?

Get a grip, for chrissakes.

[Ms. Clio]

206. Actually, I was referring to 2 trolls in this thread

who have since been banned.

I will reserve judgment on you ;)

(just kidding)

[glaeken777]

202. thanks, i guess.

You're asking good questions, and I never pretended to have all the answers. In fairness, neither does anyone else. Patience!

[bemildred]

207. Patience is granted.

I hope I can expect the same.
:hi:

[chlamor]

134. In Case Your Wondering

When Sgrena was transported to the Baghdad airport everyone along the way was notified. In case you're wondering, no one simply travels the road to the airport without all points being alerted to their movements. It's the most hazardous stretch of ground on earth and no one passes without proper clearance. This means that the Pentagon's storyline is pure fiction, as time will certainly tell. They weren't overtaken by a speeding vehicle; it was a trap. The car was a mere 700 meters from the airport when Marines started pumping it full of lead in a gangland-style hit. Miraculously, Sgrena survived with only minor injuries.

[bowens43]

7. bullshit.

the 'US military figure' must be a republican. Always blame the victim for the crime.

[DrZeeLit]

44. I second that motion. My first thought: Bullshit!

But you knew that was coming, huh?
We'd deny? Actually, it's the non-denial denial.
Didn't coordinate? This doesn't mean we didn't do it on purpose, does it?

I guess we've turned another corner, eh?

[IndianaGreen]

92. "anonymous US military figure"

Who's that, Oliver North?

Cowards all of them, and shame on the US media for reporting this crap as "news."

[liveoaktx]

8. Infuriating-Road Blocks BLOCK THE ROAD, don't they?

IF it were true that someone the American troops had decided to set up an *impromptu* road block, it would have stopped the car and then the troops could have fired on the car driving THROUGH THE BLOCK. That's not at all how it's described-plus how is it that the hail of bullets wouldn't have killed the driver, too, unless they were from the side of the vehicle.

It's also fishy how, according to another article, "The shooting late on Friday was overheard by Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's office, which was on the phone with one of the secret service agents, said Scolari. "Then the US military silenced the cellphones," he charged."

If we were to believe that this was an accident, then we also have to believe that the Americans themselves make the roads drastically, randomly unsafe for anyone driving at normal speeds on a highway, putting residents at risk by not properly stopping them but firing on them at irregular points, and then covering up firings by ensuring that no one can make phone calls, and not allowing ambulance relief for extended periods of time.

Imagine that happening, with, say, a drunken driver road block in this country. You're driving down the highway, and you see, off to the side, where you don't expect it, someone waving at you and shining a flashlight-you keep going because you don't know what the heck it is, and you get automatic rounds fired into your car FROM THE SIDE into your backseat, killing your passengers. When you then stop, the people who fired won't let you go to hospital and confiscate your cell phone so you can't alert anyone.

[Disturbed]

9. democracy and liberty

"The military mission must carry on because it consolidates democracy and liberty in Iraq,"

Yes, the democracy of an Islamic State and the liberty of the U.S. Oil Corps to get the cheap oil.

Now the car cannot be found?

Yes, the foxes must investigate the hen house murders.

[ConcernedCanuk]

10. Good point - the DRIVER should have been FULL of bullets

.
.
.

But a HEADSHOT to the passenger in the backseat? :wtf:


VERY suspicious indeed.

It was a hit IMO

[chomskysright]

47. KICK!

[Igel]

113. 300-400 bullets, with the rumor that she said she scooped up

a handful of bullets in the car ...

Nothing recognizably human should have come out of that car.

[lumpy]

14. You are damned right this is fishy.

Never considered the angle of the bullet that killed the Italian agent.

[bemildred]

17. Ah, yes, the secret unlighted roadblock off to the side of the road.

Would you run a roadblock/checkpoint that way, or an ambush?

[IndianaGreen]

100. This is why the car has "disappeared," according the US military

Can't claim it was a roadblock if all the shots are on one side of the car.

The bullshit story about the soldiers aiming at the engine has now been debunked by our own military.

[bemildred]

101. It was not shot from the front.

There were four people, two were hit, in the back,
on the floor, no warning, just deer in the headlights
and fire away. If the car is produced and the two
other guys talk and back her up ...

If they produce the car, and it's been shot from the
front, I'll change my mind.

[Igel]

114. I heard that the bullet in Sgrena had passed through

Calipari.

One bullet, two casualties.

[bemildred]

119. That would not be surprising. nt

[daleo]

170. Chain of possession though

They have had time to doctor the evidence if they really want to (e.g. shoot it full of holes to be consistent with whatever story they settle on). It seems likely the point will be moot though; the Pentagon has a history of just brazening these things out. It all depends on whether Busharlioni needs some pretense of cooperation for the sake of internal Italian political reaction.

[bemildred]

174. Yeah, but it's hard to undo bullet holes.

But you are right.

Say, what ever happened on 9.11 anyway? Did we find
out yet? Did they ever catch that anthrax guy?
:puke:

[daleo]

183. And don't forget Kenny boy. n/t

[NightOwwl]

185. This is spooky...

I Googled 'tom daschle targeted anthrax' and this was the first link: http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_424438.html?menu=

Check this out (especially the last three sentences):

US Senator targeted by 'anthrax letter'

George W Bush says a US Senator is the latest target of the anthrax outbreak.

Officials are carrying out tests on powder found inside a letter sent to Senate majority leader Tom Daschle.

The President says there is no evidence to link the anthrax outbreak to Osama bin Laden, but it has not been ruled out.

Mr Bush said: "There may be some possible link. We have no hard data yet, but it's clear Mr Bin Laden is an evil man.

"He and his spokesmen are openly bragging about how they hope to inflict more pain on our country."

The President spoke to reporters at the White House before a meeting with Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.

He said: "I am pleased with the cooperation and support of Italy - they have been very strong from the beginning.

"I'm confident that if we put out the word we wanted more help from Italy they'd be more than willing."

Coincidence, I'm sure, but gave me the creeps reading it.

[alfredo]

43. The cell phone going dead could be electronic counter measures

they use to stop remotely triggered road side bombs. Using it against an approaching car doesn't make sense unless the same counter measures disables electronic triggers other than cellphones.

Still the shooting the passengers and not the driver is not how you stop a "speeding" car.

[NYC]

184. They fired shots before disabling the cell phones.

Didn't people in Italy hear the shots over the phone?

[alfredo]

204. That's right.

I want to hear from the other survivors.

[cliss]

58. You bring up excellent points.

I agree. It's impossible to refute these points. The US story falls apart like a cheap suit.

[leQ]

59. i second that, good point!

.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

12. That's blatant bs...just a lie to cover someone's butt.

[DoYouEverWonder]

15. Let's just keep blaming the victim

I hope this crap back fires on them big time.

They are not going to be able to cover up this one. The target has too much credibility, especially in Italy and overseas.

[clem_c_rock]

16. F***ing lying sacks of sh**

No it was because she was working on these stories.


http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/420dd721e0ff0.html
http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/420dc3a05e58d.html

[lonestarnot]

18. lies and liars that tell those lies. We know that would mean certain

death! And it did! He (the agent) was trying to save her life, which he did with the ultimate sacrifice of his own life, not kill her, so why wouldn't Americans have been notifed? This is a big ass lie!

[Turley]

19. Well that certainly begs the question

why didn't they just shoot her?

[lonestarnot]

20. They thought they had and when it was obvious as the car stopped

that there could be no mistake, they would not be able to explain this away with a point blank shot to the head, so at that point they couldn't kill the intended target.

[Turley]

21. If you don't mind me playing Devil's Advocate here

(and trust me, I haven't a clue what happened) but I have to assume some soldiers approached the vehicle and others maintained a stand-off distance. If the approaching soldiers determined the occupants weren't dead, they could have backed off and given the order (to the stand-off soldiers) to resume firing. Quite easily accomplished. Otherwise, I'd argue that if they wanted everyone dead they would have put enough ordinance into the vehicle to get the job done. Also quite easily accomplished.

[lonestarnot]

23. No problem devil's advocate...wrong because then they would have a

close up visual as to whom was in the vehicle, certain court marshal for murder in the 1st degree witnessed by many.

[Turley]

25. Don't understand

If everyone gets killed, where are the witnesses?

[w4rma]

60. The grunts are. They are just following the orders of others and cannot

be expected to lie.

[Spazito]

34. The Italians were on the cell phone at the time...

so there was, in essence, witnesses to the attack. To carry on and kill the survivors would have been seen immediately as an assassination. Their cell phones were taken immediately after which says to me the US didn't want any more info going out until they could plan a 'story' to cover their asses.

[soothsayer]

22. because they saw all those open lines on the cellphones

They were already busted! Couldn't finish her off.

[lonestarnot]

24. my answer similar...we are thinking along same lines, but cell phones

shut down...??

[chomskysright]

48. YES. the cell phones went dead. WHY? on another DU'er thread

[ebayfool]

181. Wonder if those cellphones were the video type? THAT would explain

alot of the scrambling, butt covering, freepirific denials that are being disseminated all over the place, right now!

LOL - spell check does NOT like freepirific!


on edit: crap, spent my 600th post on freepirific!

[Junkdrawer]

26. They certainly tried. What was it 400 bullets? But I suspect there...

are a select few US troops whose job it is to *accidentally* shoot journalists and the majority of US troops who are not in on the operation. After the initial hail of bullets, the first group lost their chance.

[bemildred]

27. Yeah, the grunts would not be told the "mission".

It would be something like "line up over there" and "open fire".
It would be very important that it be an "accident" with nobody
to testify different.

[Turley]

28. I am skeptical of both sides

Of this story. Particularly the reporters story that they were shot at by an armored vehicle with 300-400 rounds. I have fired both the coax and the chain gun and if those weapons were employed, there wouldn't be much of anything left of the vehicle.

Which of course begs another question: Why doesn't anyone know where the vehicle is now?

[Junkdrawer]

29. If this were the first such incident, I might be more inclined...

to call it an accident. However, by now so many independent/hostile journalists have been 'accidentally' shot in *extremely* suspicious circumstances that even CNN's now former news chief had to acknowledge that there is almost certainly a policy to "kill the messenger".

[chomskysright]

49. 48 journalists and assoc people e.g., cameramen dead/ assassinated

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1286417&mesg_id=1287165&page=

48 journalists and media assistants killed since the start of fighting in Iraq in March 2003, four still missing

33 have been killed this year while doing their job.

Four other journalists are still missing

The names of the deceased:

33 Journalists killed


25.02.2005 - Raeda Mohammed Wageh Wazzan, Iraqiya

09.02.2005 - Abdel Hussein Khazaal, Al-Hurra TV

01.11.2004 - Dhia Najim, Reuters

27.10.2004 - Liqaa Abdul-Razzaq, Al-Sharqiya

14.10.2004 - Karam Hussein, European Pressphoto Agency

14.10.2004 - Dina Mohamad Hassan, Al Hurriya Television

7.10.2004 - Ahmad Jassem, Nivive television

12.09.2004 - Mazen al-Tomaizi, Al-Arabiya

26.08.2004 - Enzo Baldoni, Diario della settimana

15.08.2004 - Mahmoud Hamid Abbas, ZDF

15.08.2004 - Hossam Ali, freelance

03.06.2004 - Sahar Saad Eddine Nouami, Al-Mizan, Al-Khaima, Al-Hayat Al-Gadida

27.05.2004 - Kotaro Ogawa, Nikkan Gendai


07.05.2004 - Mounir Bouamrane, TVP

19.04.2004 - Assad Kadhim, Al-Iraqiya TV

26.03.2004 - Bourhan Mohammad al-Louhaybi, ABC News

18.03.2004 - Ali Al-Khatib, Al-Arabiya

18.03.2004 - Ali Abdel Aziz, Al-Arabiya

18.03.2004 - Nadia Nasrat, Diyala Television

28.10.2003 - Ahmed Shawkat, Bila Ittijah

17.08.2003 - Mazen Dana, Reuters

02.07.2003 - Ahmad Karim, Kurdistan Satellite TV

08.04.2003 - José Couso, Tele 5

08.04.2003 - Taras Protsyuk, Reuters

08.04.2003 - Tarek Ayoub, Al Jazeera

07.04.2003 - Christian Liebig, Focus

07.04.2003 - Julio Anguita Parrado, El Mundo

04.04.2003 - Michael Kelly, Washington Post

02.04.2003 - Kaveh Golestan, BBC

02.04.2003 - Kaveh Golestan, BBC

23.03.2003 - Terry Lloyd, ITV News

22.03.2003 - Paul Moran, Australian Broadcasting Corporation

15 Media assistants killed


25.08.2004 - Jamal Tawfiq Salmane, Gazeta Wyborcza

29.05.2004 - Mahmoud Ismael Daood, bodyguard, Al-Sabah al-Jadid

29.05.2004 - Samia Abdeljabar, driver, Al-Sabah al-Jadid

27.05.2004 - Unknown, translator

25.05.2004 - Unknown, translator

21.05.2004 - Rachid Hamid Wali, cameraman assistant, Al-Jazira

29.04.2004 - Hussein Saleh, driver, Al-Iraquiya TV

26.03.2004 - Omar Hashim Kamal, translator, Time

18.03.2004 - Majid Rachid, technician, Diyala Television

18.03.2004 - Mohamad Ahmad, security agent, Diyala Television

27.01.2004 - Duraid Isa Mohammed, producer and translator, CNN

27.01.2004 - Yasser Khatab, driver, CNN

07.07.2003 - Jeremy Little, sound engineer, NBC

06.04.2003 - Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed, translator, BBC

22.03.2003 - Hussein Othman, translator, ITV News

http://www.rsf.org/special_iraq_en.php3

[MadisonProgressive]

30. Good question - the military had it - now they say they don't know

[jmcgowanjm]

31. Why did LBJ have JFK's limousine remade?

Why was the Russian Ambassador's convoy attacked on
040703?

http://www.boycottusa.org/news/war_iraqnews_guardian7Apr_03.htm

COVERING IT OR COVERING IT UP?

http://www.newsdissector.org/blog/

BTW-we're losing.

www.freearabvoice.com

[Laurab]

82. My guess is that the US military knows where the vehicle is

and since the damage to it doesn't suit their story, it went "missing". I am quite sure if there was nothing to hide, the vehicle would not be "missing", which is why I tend to believe the reporter's story. Of course, I would lean toward believing anyone besides the US, as our integrity has long been lost. The vehicle "missing" just adds to my belief that we're not telling the truth.

[MADem]

192. Good questions

What sort of vehicle were they in? Did it have any armoring at all--either manufactured or "local" (the sheet metal guy at the scrap yard)? Any bullet proof glass (depending on quality, not all BPG is really bullet PROOF--if you hit the same spot enough times, you can get through it)? If they were firing on BPG of medium quality, three or four hundred bullets might be what it would take to get through into the passenger compartment.

And yeah, were IS the car?

I would like to know what REALLY happened. The whole situation is INEXCUSABLE...we shouldn't be shooting released hostages on the airport road.

Either we are incompetent, nefarious, unable to communicate effectively with our allies or this was one of those "one in a million years" scenarios that could not possibly be repeated (say, soldier sneezes and accidentally discharges weapon, everyone else starts firing because they think he saw something).

What EVER the truth, I think the world needs to hear it. Where ever it leads, even if it makes us look like a bunch of incompetents or assholes, we should be the nation that demands truth--it used to be our hallmark, once upon a time.

[me b zola]

94. That has been my thought on how this occured,

and why the job was not finished. Of course there would be demands for an investigation after the "incident", so you can't exclusively use black ops soldiers.

"impromtu check-point"? Yeah, created 90 minutes before the car with the Italians came through. Sounds like maybe as soon as word of her release was when this checkpoint was created. So who was this U.S. official that the checkpoint was supposedly set up for?

This stinks to high heaven.

[clem_c_rock]

33. Let's start looking at the real reasons instead of the official story

Why she was taken hostage (no it wasn't by insurgents)
http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=2034&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

<snippit>
n all the coverage by the corporate media of the Sgrena story, one crucial element is conspicuously missing: on the day she was kidnapped Giuliana Sgrena had an appointment in a Baghdad Sunni mosque with refugees from Fallujah.
</snippit>


And the stories she was writing (folks, can u say chemical weapons, Napalm)

http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/420dc3a05e58d.html
http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/420dd721e0ff0.html

[chomskysright]

50. INCRED site:Americans wanted her dead& Italian gov....

will try and downplay it in order to keep Berscolini in power.

If we can crank this, Italy will have a new more centrist/ left person in the near future which will put pressure on Washington.

"Consider the following posted on the Turkish Press site:

“The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming,” Pier Scolari said on leaving Rome’s Celio military hospital where Sgrena is to undergo surgery following her return home. “They were 700 meters (yards) from the airport, which means that they had passed all checkpoints… Giuliana had information, and the US military did not want her to survive,” he added.

[dArKeR]

35. How can you believe anything from this lying Regime? Look at this..

You can't even believe the reporters and/or the reporters lie in their own articles.

www.yahoo.com main news says, "Hundreds in Italy honor slain intel officer" then click the article and it says "Tens of thousands of people viewed it Sunday while it lay in state at Rome's Vittoriano monument."
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20050307/ap_on_re_eu/italy_iraq_hostage_24

[Junkdrawer]

36. Belongs in GD...

[Turley]

37. Not to split hairs

but the other thread was a link to a post in someone's blog which was 48 hours old.

[rocktivity]

38. Why was there a plane waiting for them at the airport, then?

If the U.S. officials didn't know anything, what was an Italian military plane doing sitting the allegedly US-fortified Baghdad airport? There HAD to have been SOME level of US-Italian coordination going on! If the right info didn't trickle down far enough to reach the ground troops, that's not Italy's fault.

On edit: And I'm certainly not interested in what an "anonymous military figure" thinks. If that's the "official" explanation, then why isn't being made BY an official? The Italian eyewitnesses have names!

:headbang:
rocknation

[Turley]

40. Excellent question.

Thinking out loud:

3ID's troops were at the checkpoint. Seems logical that the airport was their "real estate" i.e. they were also pulling security for the airport and its surroundings. They would have done this in conjunction with AirForce units who usually secure runways.

We have to assume that the Airport, being important, has some kind of T.O.C., or Tactical Operations Center which is usually kind of a nerve-center for a certain area in a theater.

If the guys in the TOC knew there was an Italian Secret Service Bird on the runway, they must have known there was someone coming to fly on the damned thing. Probably the same guys gave the Italians clearance to take weapons in-country.

[IndianaGreen]

93. ABC News is reporting tonight that it was a "tactical checkpoint"

one that changes position all the time, not the traditional fixed checkpoint the Pentagon has been telling us since Friday.

This validates Sgrena's account that the shots came from a patrol.

[bemildred]

95. A secret, unlighted, off-the-road checkpoint, sort of like an ambush. nt

[IndianaGreen]

99. It sure sounds like an ambush!

I didn't think of it right away, but there is no other way to label this so-called "tactical" roadblock.

So much for the bullshit story about warning lights and warning shots.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

111. Making It Up As They Go Along

Just wait, they'll have a further clarification tomorrow. To further confuse the HE** out of everyone.

[daleo]

172. A "tactical checkpoint" sounds like doubletalk for patrol.

As you say.

[Garbo 2004]

63. News reports previously quoted Italians involved: US at airport

were informed about their mission and in fact were waiting for the agents' return with their passenger. This UPI international corrspondent's article refers to what I previously read:

"On Saturday, a SISMI officer who was also traveling with Calipari was quoted in the Italian media as saying that the car was moving quite slowly and cautiously, and that there was no indication that they were at a checkpoint. The Milan paper Il Corriere della Sera also reported that not only was Sgrena's release known to the Americans, but a U.S. Army colonel was among those waiting for the journalist at Baghdad airport to see her off.

Another official who asked not to be named told United Press International by phone from Rome that the feeling in Italian official circles was that someone with as much experience of conditions in Iraq as Nicola Calipari would hardly have attempted to crash a U.S. military checkpoint." http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20050307-102934-3147r

And another article from the UK:

"Italy is well aware that its habit of paying large sums to secure the release of its nationals is disapproved of by the Americans and British. All negotiations are therefore carried on in secret. But at Baghdad airport Mr Calipari explained at the US headquarters what his team had come to do. It was arranged that an American colonel would be on hand at the airport when Ms Sgrena arrived for her flight back to Italy. By the time the team had rented a four-wheel drive it was already 5pm." http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=617569

So if the US military in charge of the airport knew that the Italian intelligence agents were going to be returning to the airport and were waiting with other Italians for their return (especially with a released hostage of note who was being returned home to a US ally nation), wasn't it their responsibility to "coordinate" with the US ground troops patrolling the road and the manning the checkpoints?

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

106. They Did Coordinate The Attack

They did coordinate with the ground troops, so that they knew when the car was coming, so they could carry out the attack. This was all set up in advance, except the part where the journalist lived.

[Igel]

117. But if Calipari was in the back seat talking with Sgrena,

and the checkpoint wasn't a fixed one, there's no necessary inference that he even saw the checkpoint. Sgrena's accounts certainly imply she didn't see the checkpoint.

Then we have to know the driver's experience.

[Garbo 2004]

153. The driver, also an Italian intel agent, reportedly said that the car

was not speeding (going the equivalent of 25-30 MPH) and there were no warning shots or attempts to flag the car down before they were fired on.

As reported in a Christian Science Monitor, sometimes these "checkpoints" are not always readily identified as a checkpoint.

"You're driving along and you see a couple of soldiers standing by the side of the road - but that's a pretty ubiquitous sight in Baghdad, so you don't think anything of it. Next thing you know, soldiers are screaming at you, pointing their rifles and swiveling tank guns in your direction, and you didn't even know it was a checkpoint." http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0307/p01s04-woiq.html

But again, reportedly the driver said there was no warning prior to the shootings.

[tlcandie]

90. With an American military higher up ..colonel, leiutenant or some

such was at the airport as well, awaiting her transfer....so there is NO way it was accidental.

[DELUSIONAL]

41. So this is the new spin???

After passing several check points -- they get within 7000 feet of the airport and then are attacked and the Italian agent is murdered with a shot to his head.

The US military starts with a lie and just keep piling on the lies.

It has been pointed out that an airplane was waiting for the passengers.

My guess: A general or even Rummy ordered the hit -- without even considering the fall out. This would be typical of the bush gang -- they never consider the fall out from one of their temper tantrums.

[chomskysright]

51. take down Berscolini!:call WH & ask for soldiers names:2024561414...

keep this echo chamber cranked.

[sr_pacifica]

62. Yes!

I have called the WH and my reps to put the pressure on.

[daleo]

56. I think it was 700 meters.

That's about 2250 feet, or less than half a mile, or five city blocks.

[DELUSIONAL]

84. Thanks for the clarification --

I'm not a math whiz -- and I've seen both.

That is a very short distance -- considering that they were headed for the airport.

[daleo]

85. Yes, a very short distance (from the BBC site).

"Sgrena: The driver had spoken twice to the embassy and to Italy to say we were on our way to the airport
We were less than a kilometre ... when... I remember there was shooting
The driver began screaming that we were Italian
We weren't going particularly fast given that type of situation"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4324445.stm

The fact that they were less than a kilometer (700 meters would fit nicely here) from the airport when this happened does seem rather strange. If they had no idea who was in the car, why did it get so close to the airport before being "lit up"? Surely it would have had to have passed many checkpoints before this.

[ebayfool]

164. That would also, perhaps, explain why they didn't finish the job.

700 meters = 2250 feet, or less than half a mile, or five city blocks.

That would also provide the explanation that some here keep asking @ why they didn't finish her off, if they were really making a hit. If they were that close to the airport, the waiting Italian plane & it's escort/troops & everyone else waiting for their arrival would surely have heard the gunfire. They couldn't be sure that more people wouldn't be arriving - more unwanted witness'. No time to plan otherwise, so they stalled as long as they dared before providing medical evac (darn woman, she just didn't cooperate - she lived).

I don't say that all the troops have to have been involved, just enough to steer the operation &/or deliver the punchline. Whoever ordered it just didn't plan it through to cover all contingencies. I'd like to know who the officer waiting at the airport was, bet he'd have alot of info (a transfer to a free fire zone is probably already in process).

just thinking out loud here!

[bemildred]

169. Someone else mentioned the witnesses a couple days ago.

TahitiNut or NNN0LHI I think it was.
Thanks for thinking that over, it's been bothering me.
I'm still not sure about the two guys that lived, were
they just lucky? Why are they alive? Why use bullets
when something a bit more powerful could be used?

[ebayfool]

180. I would suspect that the close proximity to the airport & their fellow ...

Italians have as much to do w/their survival as would luck. If the Italian negotiator (deceased) was as experienced as I've read, he might have been aware of the US reluctance for her to make it out alive. I just wonder if that plane had Italian troops on it, & if they heard gunfire mere yards from the airport, at a time that the car was expected to return - wouldn't there have been people coming to the scene immediately, to ascertain if it was 'their package'? Wouldn't the ensuing crowd deflect any attempts to finish off the surviving occupants of the car? Was the scene visible from any point in the airport? With all the security at this airport (ostensibly the tightest in the world?) isn't there any cameras focused outward on the perimeter, that might have caught this (I know it was dark, but gunfire & headlights would at least give some positioning data)? If it was an ambush to silence or still Sgrena, bullets are the currency du jour for the military. Hard to claim you accidentally dropped a bomb on a moving car, though I think it's been tried before!

[bemildred]

200. Thanks.

It would seem that there would be a limit, from a credibility
point of view, in how long they could keep blasting away at the
stopped vehicle, assuming they are concerned about observation and/or
perhaps not wanting the troops to catch on to what they had been
ordered to do.

It states that Calipari was killed by one shot to the head somewhere.
It states elsewhere "400 bullets", and Ms Sgrena herself says the
shooting went on a bit, like ten seconds, though I expect it is hard
to tell when you are being shot at.

And yet I think either the other two guys were not supposed to be dead,
or they were very lucky. But I am reminded of cases of Iraqi civilians
where stunned children are found in the back seat while everyone else
in the vehicle is dead. If we assume the troops were not in on the
hit that may explain it, they may not have been trying to kill the
guys in front. it would be nice to know how many shots were actually
fired, but I don't expect that information or the soldiers involved
will be forthcoming.

Since the italians have the car now, perhaps we will get more
information from the forensic investigation.

[daleo]

177. That is a very good point.

With night vision binoculars the whole thing might have been easily observable from the airplane or another point on the tarmac. Once the gunfire had drawn attention to the scene, dozens of sets of eyes (and cameras) could have been observing. Too late to just finish them off pointblank. It would explain the wait before giving them medical attention. They may have been giving her as much time as they could manage to bleed to death.

[NYC]

186. It's 8 2/3 city blocks in NYC.

We have 20 blocks per mile, so for all New Yorkers:

700 meters = approx. 27,300 inches = 2,275 feet = .43087 miles = 8.6 NYC blocks.

Just so everyone is clear on distance. It was a very short distance.

[daleo]

52. Anonymous sources aren't worth the ink they signed their names with. n/t

[MGKrebs]

54. It's been relatively easy for "officials" to claim

that civilian shooting at roadblocks were due to miscommunication. That just can't be the case here. If we can't even communicate our intentions to Italians/coalition members, we have some serious rethinking to do about how we are trying to communicate.

And that is the BEST case scenario.

[plasticsundance]

57. On another Forum

where I sometimes post, a person at that forum is from Italy, and stated that the agent that was killed, Nicola Calipari, was a senior official and much respected by both the left and right in Italy, and had close connections to the PM and President of Italy.

This matter will not be forgotten by the Italian people. It's always the cover-up that gets people in deep doodoo for their crimes.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chomskysright]

75. here is some more writing (good English) by Sgrena...

Don't forget! yesterday was International Woman's Day!

http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/03/benefit-of-dumb.html

First, a July, 2004 interview with a woman tortured in Abu Ghraib:

I asked her if she was held on her own all the time. 'No. It was then that they put me in a cell with other women, two women per cell. There were thirteen women, mainly wives of men belonging to the previous regime, and seven children. There was even the wife of Sabah Merza, one of Saddam's guards in the 1970s, who kept her hands plunged in ice to soothe the pain caused by the torture that had been inflicted on her. Another woman was in really bad shape: they'd kept hurling her against the wall. Another had been locked in a tiny cage for six days and couldn't even move. One of the prisoners had been forced to walk on all fours and her knees and elbows were in a terrible state. Another woman had been forced to separate faeces from urine, using her own hands. The soldiers frequently forced us to drink water from the toilet bowl. A woman of sixty, who had said she was a virgin, was continually threatened with rape.'

Did you know of cases of rape? 'Yes, but I'm not going to go into that. In our society, it's something you don't talk about.' How old were the women prisoners? 'Between forty and sixty years of age.' And what about children, how were they treated? 'We heard them screaming. They were tortured too. Mostly dogs were set on them.'

And last November, in Fallujah:

"We buried them, but we could not identify them because they were charred from the napalm bombs used by the Americans." People from Saqlawiya village, near Falluja, told al Jazeera television, based in Qatar, that they helped bury 73 bodies of women and children completely charred, all in the same grave. The sad story of common graves, which started at Saddam’s times, is not yet finished. Nobody could confirm if napalm bombs have been used in Falluja, but other bodies found last year after the fierce battle at Baghdad airport were also completely charred and some thought of nuclear bombs. No independent source could verify the facts, since all the news arrived until now are those spread by journalists embedded with the American troops, who would only allow British and American media to enrol with them. But the villagers who fled in the last few days spoke of many bodies which had not been buried: it was too dangerous to collect the corpses during the battle.

As she was released, Sgrena's captors - whoever they were - warned her to take care, because "there are Americans who don't want you to go back."

[sr_pacifica]

61. Yes, and....

There were no warning lights or any other warnings...and

Since Ms. Sgrena works for a leftist newspaper, she is not going to be believed on THIS side of the Atlantic. But have a member of the military who has something to answer for, who has a lot of CYA to do, and that person's version of events will not even be questioned.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

70. Who the hell is "Bo Dietl"?

The Italian journalist's credibility is in no danger whatsoever. Crying "Commie" is not going to make this mess go away.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

73. Yes, I have a TV--but I don't watch Fox news.

My reputation is safe.

[Julius Civitatus]

88. Since you asked

Bo Dietl is one of the biggest morons to appear on the TV screen. He is a former cop and investigator. The guy can barely speak or put two thoughts coherently, and curses like a maniac. He also brags of always packing heat.

Despite those obvious flaws, he is on TV 24/7. He is a "pundit", of course always taking the extreme right position. If you turn on MSNBC, CNN, or Fox News any time of the day, chances are you will see him babbling there. Here's his mug:



He is a good example of what's wrong with our media and political discourse. He is incoherent, rude, can barely speak, and is always spewing right-wing propaganda straight out of the NY Post or Freak Republic. Yet, he is constantly consulted in every single news channel as a voice of reason.

:puke:

[Garbo 2004]

91. Yeah, I saw him on Imus once (not my regular viewing) and Imus

was treating him like crap, insulting him and he took it like he was one of Imus' other paid flunkies. And he did come off like a moron. It was bizarre.

I'd seen him before since as you say, he's one of the media's "go to guys," but that was the worst performance I'd seen. Not very he-man and authoritative when Imus was ripping him a new one about taking up airtime babbling.

[Ms. Clio]

120. I saw him on the Daily Show--it was hilarious

He literally could not articulate a single sentence without the word "fuck" in it, even after the Daily Show correspondent asked him to try.

[MADem]

193. A retarded idiot whose best days are so far behind him

...he can't even look back and get a clear view of them. He is now a private detective with an investigation service, and he goes on the Imus show regularly and murders the english language. He is as stupid as all get out, rude beyond belief, and OBTUSE in every respect. An awful human being.

Unfortunately, due to all the deleting, I couldn't see the original remark, but I figured I would answer your question!

[Garbo 2004]

64. If US military at airport knew, why didn't they coordinate with the US

ground units? Seems to me that would be the expected chain of communication. (See my post #63)

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

67. Oh--you believe the US story!

Don't worry--I doubt the Italians will be helping out your president much longer.

[Spinoza]

66. Hopefully,

we will soon have an impartial investigation (covered openly by the worldwide press) which will allow us to get to the bottom of what actually happened. I want to hear what the soldiers who did the actual firing, not the higher officers and apologists, have to say in their defense.

[jbnow]

76. I wonder if the soldiers were set up

to intentionally assassinate the people in the back seat of the car coming to wards them, but having no idea it was this lady or the Italian hero.

They could have been told anything, that it was a wanted heavily armed terrorist in the car and shoot to kill.

That would still surely be against policy, but easy to understand them being willing to do.

[Julius Civitatus]

89. That is called "Plausible Deniability"

and it's been a favorite of black-ops for decades:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability

[lebkuchen]

77. Bush is taking the Italians for a ride. Italy either faces that fact

and takes action, by withdrawing troops from Iraq, risking the loss of support of the Mission Viejo, CA community college system, or continue to take casualties at the hands of its so-called ally, the US of A.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

110. Italy Was In On This

Little doubt in my mind. They knew it, and will attempt to cover-up as much as possible. Remains to see if their Dictator gets re-selected, like ours did.

[bemildred]

115. I've been wondering about that.

The thing is she lived.
Mr. Calipari was better than they knew.

[mtnester]

80. So, I guess the plane that was to carry them home just snuck in?

No one knew about why a plane landed at the runway, to come and fly this woman home? A plane just magically appeared at the airport? We did not shoot at it but shot at the car carrying the people coming to GET ON THAT PLANE????

Liars, every one of them.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

109. American Public = Stupid Sheep n/t

[spanone]

81. Ooh she's a commie and she disagreed with bush*. She deserved to die?

These motherfuckers are vile.

[Lars39]

96. Why didn't the last checkpoint before the airport

pass the word on that their car was coming through?
The checkpoints can communicate with each other, can't they? :shrug:

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

102. You would think there was only one check-point in all of Baghdad

The Italian reporter says they went through several check-points. I would assume that to get through a check-point, one has to produce some sort of identification. The safe passage through the check-point would have normally had to be cleared, especially with non Iraqis involved. They are looking very closely at any individuals with non-Iraqi identities, as they seek to find foreign fighters. I would think that this was cleared at the highest levels of security and that they knew who they were dealing with.

Why does the Pentagon not address whether there were previous check-points and whether clearances were given? If no communication was made to subsequent check-points, then the US military is at least culpable of negligence. I would even question why a US military escort was not provided, once the first check-point was cleared.

[Lars39]

103. Good questions.

And I hope we're able to get some answers for them.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

108. They Did Tell Them

The word was passed. Car on it's way. Carry out your mission. Of course they knew it was coming.

[Robeson]

97. A Current U.S. Government Statement = Credibility Gap.

[Undercover Owl]

139. have you seen this crappy blog?

mypetjawa seems to be an EXTREME DUMBASS!!! weblog, that feels the need to express opinions:
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/070103.php

[NightOwwl]

155. Where is the car?

They just happened to misplace it? Uh, that's kind of wierd, isn't it? Yet no one (except us) seems to be making a big deal about it.

For crying out loud, the fact that the car isn't being produced tells me someone is trying to hide the truth...and it ain't the Italians.

[IndianaGreen]

162. Guardian: car flown back to Italy for a forensic examination.

From Tuesday's Guardian:

Prosecutors in Rome, who have opened an inquiry into Calipari's death, announced last night that Italian officials in Iraq had taken possession of the car in which he was travelling with Ms Sgrena when he was killed.

They said that it would be flown back to Italy for a forensic examination. Their investigation continues to be classified as a murder inquiry.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,12576,1432655,00.html

[bemildred]

163. Cool, we have movement, the car is found, thanks. nt

[IndianaGreen]

165. Looks like the Italians don't trust the US forensics

Let's see how far will Silvio Berlusconi let the investigation proceed before he pulls the rug from under it.

[bemildred]

166. That's what I'm wondering, will he try to put his thumb on the scale?

I don't expect Blair can be trusted not to meddle either.
But the fact they are taking it to the UK suggests the investigators
might be looking for a free hand, whether that is for good or ill.

[IndianaGreen]

168. Car is going to Italy, not the UK, bemildred

I wouldn't trust Blair for anything either.

[bemildred]

171. Ah, crap, I see Guardian, I think UK.

I don't trust the Guardian that much either, but it's useful.

[Ms. Clio]

176. But I don't trust Berlusconi, either

I hope the Italians will conduct a full and impartial investigation, but I am not completely confident.

[magellan]

194. They make the rules. #1 is CYA.

Cars disappearing. Child's play. It's probably on some scrap heap right now. Another identical car will be produced showing what they want it to show.

[IndianaGreen]

158. 3rd Infantry Division shot carloads of Iraqi women & children at checkpoin

Italians honour Iraq hostage go-between

John Hooper in Rome and Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington
Tuesday March 8, 2005
The Guardian


However the Third Infantry Division, whose troops include those that fired on the Italians' car last Friday, came under investigation in April last year for opening fire on carloads of Iraqi women and children at checkpoints, according to US army documents obtained by the Guardian.

"The order was given to shoot anything that moves, but it wasn't meant to be taken literally," one soldier told the US army investigator.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,12576,1432655,00.html

[The_Casual_Observer]

182. There is no accounting for all the people who might have been

murdered at these "checkpoints." My guess is that they simply killed the
guy figuring he was just another anonymous Iraqi, with no questions asked.

[ze_dscherman]

195. Steve Bell's comment

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stevebell/0,7371,1432862,00.html

[Bridget Burke]

197. Grimmer & less amusing than Bell's usual....

Although his sense of humor is pretty black. Not that I blame him.

CBS news (last night & again this AM) also mentioned other US checkpoint "mistakes." They showed the clip of the little girl, covered in her parents' blood after they were killed; the photo has been seen here many times.

[Vladimir]

199. On the money n/t