Giuliana Sgrena: 'Voice of weakest'

[NNN0LHI]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4321173.stm

Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena never thought she would be taken hostage telling the story of the people she deeply cared for.

A toughened war correspondent, her reports filter the impact of conflict through the lives of ordinary people - precisely what she was doing in Baghdad on 4 February when she was seized by gunmen.

The former left-wing militant has often been described as an advocate of the dispossessed and the have-nots.

She once said war correspondents "make known the reality which otherwise would just be described in official war bulletins and propaganda pamphlets".

more

[Stop_the_War]

2. I have a feeling it was the CIA who kidnapped her....

It's obvious. The CIA did the same with Berg.

[NNN0LHI]

4. Here is another

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4307563.stm

French reporter in video appeal

A French reporter held hostage in Iraq has appeared on a video pleading for help, saying her health is "very bad".
Florence Aubenas, a correspondent for the French newspaper Liberation, looked thin and exhausted on the tape.

It is thought she and her interpreter, Hussein Hanoun al-Saadi, were snatched from a car in Baghdad on 5 January.

Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin expressed concern about them and said the government was working to secure their release.

more

[cal04]

6. I'm sure Hassan should be added to the list

Hassan was the director of CARE International in Iraq. She spent 30 years giving humanitarian aid to the Iraqi people. A CNN article describes how patients at an Iraqi hospital took to the streets in protest against her kidnapping. The patients said she did much to rebuild their hospital.

[bpilgrim]

9. i agree

it didn't make any sense for the iraqis to kill her.

peace

[jdj]

65. these opportunistic nazi SOB's that run this country would

jump at a chance like this.

I feel personally responsble for so much of this, I made the drastic error of being happy and enjoying my life during the Clinton years. I hope I won't ever be so stupid and complacent again.

[mom cat]

7. If the CIA had kidnapped her, she would be dead...just like Berg.

[bemildred]

3. I look forward to when she gets a chance to write of her experiences. nt

[Frederik]

5. Italian outrage

Robert Calderoli, Italian minister of reform, suspects a conspiracy behind the killing. The left-wing part of the parliament are refusing to vote to renew funding of the Italian mission in Iraq. The secretary of the Democratic Left Party, Piero Fassino, says the death is "absurd". Watch out for more outrage.

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3210,36-400417,0.html
(in French)

[TahitiNut]

8. Recent related threads in LBN ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1288442
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1287949
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1286252
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1287674
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1288478
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1286417
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1286617
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1286132
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1287791
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1286002
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1284364
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1286103
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1285535

[bpilgrim]

10. our reporters go NOWHERE with out the MILITARYs permission - M$MW

this woman puts them ALL to shame.

i hear NOTHING like this being talked about by our 'reporters' and thats why i canceled cable and all newspaper subscriptions and i encourage EVERYONE to do the same because $$$ is the ONLY MSG they get.

Thank GORE he 'INVENTED' the INTERNET's!

http://images.globalfreepress.com

peace

[jdj]

66. I remember one reporter saying they told her, if you walk

20 feet past the perimeter of this camp (or base or whatever) then don't come back. And this was an american reporter.

[chlamor]

11. Giuliana Sgrena Articles About US Atrocities In Iraq

Ten thousand Iraqis in US and British prisons
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 29 December 2004

Two thousand victims in Fallujah
Giuliana Sgrena, Iraq
il manifesto 26 November 2004

Napalm Raid on Falluja?
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 23 November 2004

The death throes of Fallujah
Giuliana Sgrena
ilmanifesto 13 November 2004

“Stop the massacre”
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 12 November 2004

Bombs and tanks, hell breaks in Falluja
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 09 November 2004

Interview with an Iraki woman tortured at Abu Graib.
Giuliana Sgrena, our correspondent in Baghdad
il manifesto 01 July 2004

“Imminent attack” against Falluja
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 06 November 2004

GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 06 November 2004

Flight from a Falluja massacred by bombs
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifestp 21 October 2004

UN: US crimes in Iraq
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 05 June 2004

http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/

[hue]

12. Her captors warned her...

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/ITALY_IRAQ_HOSTAGE?SITE=MAFIT&SECTION=HOME


Wounded Italian Journalist Returns Home


Giuliana Sgrena, who writes for the communist newspaper Il Manifesto, described how she was wounded and Italian intelligence officer Nicola Calipari was killed as she was celebrating her freedom on the way to the airport. The shooting Friday has fueled anti-American sentiment in a country where people are deeply opposed to U.S. policy in Iraq (news - web sites).

"I remember only fire," she said in her article. "At that point a rain of fire and bullets came at us, forever silencing the happy voices from a few minutes earlier."

Sgrena said the driver began shouting that they were Italian, then "Nicola Calipari dove on top of me to protect me and immediately, and I mean immediately, I felt his last breath as he died on me."

Suddenly, she said, she remembered her captors' warning her "to be careful because the Americans don't want you to return."

[lcbart]

Chain of events

What bothers me about this whole thing is that the car they were riding in was 700m from the airport and had passed all checkpoints (most articles I read agree on this).

If this was so, wouldn't communications between the checkpoints have alerted any US soldiers past the last checkpoint that the Italians were on their way ?

And even if they were at the last checkpoint - Don't they talk to the the checkpoints the Italians cleared previously ?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

"most articles I read agree on this"

She herself now seems to have said that they hadn't passed any checkpoints. God only knows how badly their statements are mangled due to translation issues and the general shock and stress they must be under. I can't make heads or tails of most of it, and it seems neither can anyone in the media. AP's stories on it during the past six hours have been absolute gibberish.

[lcbart]

that they hadn't passed any checkpoints

I haven't seen that quote, If I missed it - please link so I can read it. I did see a quote from her saying it wasn't a checkpoint they were attacked at though.

Also, the location of where the shooting took place ( as far as I've read ) has not been disputed. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,12461786%255E2703,00.html

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

36. Sorry it took a while, but...

"It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol that shot as soon as they lit us up with a spotlight," she told him. "We didn't know where the bullets were coming from. We had not met other checkpoints before. Our car was absolutely not traveling at high speed."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/italy.iraq/

edit: bad tags

[jmcgowanjm]

53. "which means that they had passed ALL checkpoints."

Subject: "The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming,"

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=38029

Jon8503  (975 posts) Sun Mar-06-05 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. US Attack Against Italians in Baghdad was Deliberate: Companion

ROME - The companion of freed Italian journalist
Giuliana Sgrena on Saturday leveled serious accusations at
US troops who fired at her convoy as it was nearing
Baghdad airport, saying the shooting had been
deliberate.

Giuliana had information, and the US military did not want her
to survive.
Pier Scolari

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming,"
Pier Scolari said on leaving Rome's Celio military hospital
where Sgrena is to undergo surgery following her return
home.
"They were 700 meters (yards) from the airport, which
means that they had passed ALL(my emphasis)
checkpoints."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0305-05.htm

"He took the cotton blindfold and the dark glasses off me.
I
tried to be relieved, not because I didn't understand
what
was happening, but because of the words of this '
Nicola'.
He was talking, talking, he was insatiable, an avalanche
of friendly phrases, jokes...."
"The car continued on the road crossing through
an underpassage full of water."
"Nicola Calipari was seated at my side. The driver
had
spoken twice to the embassy and to Italy that we were on
our way to the airport that I knew was saturated with
American troops, we were less than a kilometre they told
me... ...when...I remember there was
shooting.
"At that point a rain of fire and bullets pummelled us,
silencing for ever the happy voices of a few minutes before.
The driver began screaming that we were Italian, 'We're
Italian! We're Italian!

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=38091

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

57. Are you suggesting that CNN is misquoting her?

Yeah, that quote has been all over the place for a while. It is Pier Scolari. Was he in the car? He refers to "them," rather than "us" I don't want to confuse the issue any more, but I want to make sure I'm not stating something that I screwed up because AP mistranslated him.

[jmcgowanjm]

43. The car was in direct communication w/ Berlusconi's office

According to the officer, the car had passed all
UScheckpoints.

And so, to the pertinent questions.
The ones largely unasked by the media:

* Exactly who held her hostage? And what was the
motive?
* Why was such a high profile, newly released hostage, not
given a military escort to the airport?
* Or was she, in fact given a military escort to the
airport?
* In any event, why was there no radio contact to the
US checkpoint warning of her
passage?
* Are such radio contacts part of normal protocol for routine
VIP traffic between the airport and central Baghdad?

Don't let the US unit be Special Forces.

[KoKo]

62. Maybe it was her "Military Escort" which fired. Shouldn't she have had

a US escort? After all Italy is part of the Coalition. Doesn't that mean we work together? Surely such a high profile person who had just been released from captivity would be escorted by us. :shrug:

[anarchy1999]

37. I've been asking those same questions. Where are all the communications,

as in Motorola and etc that we the tax payers have paid for? They didn't know? This was just some little random patrol out on a joy ride for the night? What the hell happened here? I'm ANGRY!

I'm angry and my mind keeps going back to "Salvador Options" and Negreponte and I feel sick. This is all way to familiar.

[countingbluecars]

Perhaps a dumb question.

I may be totally naive here, but isn't there some way to stop vehicles at checkpoints without killing people? I mean couldn't they shoot the tires out or something? I keep thinking of the horrible pictures of the children after their parents were killed at the checkpoint a few weeks ago-and now the horrible image of the Italian agent dying over the reporter.

[natrat]

how about a siren and lights

murder is murder,,,,or is it now in the time of busholini,,,,murder is life

[DoYouEverWonder]

Their excuse

is that they don't know if it's a car bomb or suicide bomber. So they just blow the 'suspect' up.

[anarchy1999]

40. Read again, the journalist's rendition, There Was No CHECKPOINT!

n/t

[harlinnchi]

Is Ms. Giuliana Sgrena a journalist? Were US soldiers aiming to hit...

the vehicle in which she traveled? I would suspect that the gentleman formerly from CNN who stopped being an employee after he asserted that journalists were being 'targeted' by US troops in Ear-ROCK might have a slight interest in this developing story.

[DeepModem Mom]

I'd like to hear from CNN's Eason Jordan also, harlinnchi --

welcome to DU.

[harlinnchi]

33. The relevance of this lethal tragedy to Mr. Jordan's...

resignation/termination cannot be denied by anyone but, apparently, the MSM. Thanks for the welcome!

[NNN0LHI]

52. We don't see any more video from Kevin Sites any more either

Wonder why?

:shrug:

Don

[hue]

13. She was a writer for a Communist newspaper

I think that explains alot as to why the "Americans" weren't happy about her return.

[Paradise]

15. We'll never see this story in our disgusting media. n/t

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. Pardon?

This is an AP piece on the web site of an American newspaper.

[NNN0LHI]

23. If it isn't reported on cable "news" it will be like it never happened n/t

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

CNN

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/italy.iraq/

Don't know if it's played on the teevee as yet, cause I hate CNN.

[devinsgram]

25. Boy, you can say that again,

The earth could divide in two, but if it isn't on cable news, it never happened.

[The Zanti Regent]

You mean if it isn't on FOX SNOOZE, it never happened!

Amazing how many idiots only watch Fox Snooze and Jesus TV!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

27. I don't think...

I do not think cable news has quite the audience you think it has. The vast majority of Americans either watch no news on TV, or the main networks' news programming. One need only look at the the ratings of each to understand this. Far more Americans get their news from newspapers than from cable news.

Being as this is the latest AP piece on the matter, you can rest assured that it will be in hundreds of newspapers either this evening or tomorrow.

[zanana]

Only 11% of Americans read newspapers.

I read this yesterday, somewhere on DU. If 89% get only their local news at 6oo or 11:00 or on cable channels, then there isn't much hope that the truth is getting out there.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

11% of america is something like... what, 29 million people?

Look at the viewership numbers for Fox and CNN. They barely ever get more than 2M people viewing anything they show.

[NNN0LHI]

39. I have been in many different types of businesses

Waiting rooms at the car dealer, cafeterias, oil change place, taverns, barber shops, department stores, etc., where there were TV monitors (some have several) showing Fox news non-stop all day long. How does anyone count up all those people who are viewing cable? Just because you have 2 million TV's tuned to cable at any one time there is no correlation between that and actual viewership numbers. 10 or 20 million people easily could be watching those 2 million TV's at any given time. And an hour later it could be a different 10 or 20 million people watching the same reports that the others had just watched. And this would continue all day long. To suggest that there are only 2 million people viewing cable news is ludicrous. But I think you already knew that.

Don

[sadiesworld]

46. Also, cable is instrumental in determing which stories gain traction.

Would Peter Jennings or Katie Couric ever discuss the Peterson case if cable hadn't obsessed over it?

[TreasonousBastard]

47. Yeah, but...

28 million of those people read only the front page, the sports pages, or the astrology column.

[jbnow]

30. CNN has brought it up several times this morning

Each time was brief, but did include her statements and how they varied with the US account. (And of course that the administration says they will investigate). They always called her "the Italian journalist", never left wing or communist (yet)

I am not defending MSM or CNN... I was glad and surprised to hear it coming up as it did. I am thinking MSM will be looking at this, for whatever that is worth. I wonder if Sunday shows will include it as a topic.

I sure have a sick feeling about this.

[Straight Shooter]

54. CNN this morning did refer to her as writing for a "left wing newspaper"

I can't find the link, but it's online.

[Paradise]

69. transferred from another post. taken out of context. n/t

[0007]

24. Yes, and if Italy is an allied to the United States why didn't they

give Ms Sgrena an escort to the airport? Strange how we haven't heard a word from Negroponte in this outrage.

I would hope that Italy pulls out of Iraq and tells junior where to go, like every other country in the world.

[hue]

28. They had already passed checkpoints.

They were very close to the airport. The Americans knew for sure she was coming!

[0007]

I think they had already went through twelve check-points

The U.S. knew for sure so why not an escort?

[leftchick]

34. American Military does not like ANY reporters...

a communist paper has nothing to do with it. Remember last year the "errant" shooting of a tank into the hotel in Baghdad where all sorts of journalists were staying? The US is trying to suppress wtf is going on in Iraq at any cost.

[Ferretherder]

14. From the current, illegitimate Administration,...

..."Uh, Oh."

[natrat]

16. there will be a full investigation

yea

[benburch]

17. WTF was it she knows?

I want to hear her story!

[DoYouEverWonder]

Here's the one they don't want you to read

Napalm Raid on Falluja?

23 November 2004

73 charred bodies -- women and children -- were found

«We buried them, but we could not identify them because they were charred from the napalm bombs used by the Americans». People from Saqlawiya village, near Falluja, told al Jazeera television, based in Qatar, that they helped bury 73 bodies of women and children completely charred, all in the same grave. The sad story of common graves, which started at Saddam’s times, is not yet finished. Nobody could confirm if napalm bombs have been used in Falluja, but other bodies found last year after the fierce battle at Baghdad airport were also completely charred and some thought of nuclear bombs. No independent source could verify the facts, since all the news arrived until now are those spread by journalists embedded with the American troops, who would only allow British and American media to enrol with them. But the villagers who fled in the last few days spoke of many bodies which had not been buried: it was too dangerous to collect the corpses during the battle.

Yesterday, for the first time since the beginning of the military campaign, the American Headquarters allowed a convoy of the Red Crescent (the Iraqi Red Cross) to enter the city with 7 ambulances and two trucks filled with food. In the past days the convoys of the humanitarian organizations were stopped on the other side of Eufrathes. Thus maybe we will now be able to obtain some more news on the conditions of the people who are left in the city -- the majority fled -- during 15 days of fierce and uninterrumpted attacks.

http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/420dd721e0ff0.html

[rooboy]

20. Apparently it's about illegal weapons (chemicals) in Fallujah. n/t

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

22. She seems very keen...

..to tell everyone that the Americans didn't want her to return, but not why they'd not want her to return.

[hue]

26. Could you give her a few days to recover??

She's just been through alot!
Her surgery was yesterday!
Lets have a little patience and give her a little break!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

No.

I have little patience for anyone on any side of an issue who makes accusations without giving any evidence to support them. She and her companions seem perfectly capable and willing to vociferously make accusations in the international news media, regardless of what they've just been though. I find it hard to believe that they're all strong enough to make these accusations, but not strong enough to back them up. If you've got the evidence, then show it, and show it now while the world is watching - because if you've got evidence that the Americans are targeting journalists, or used chemical weapons in Fallujah, then it's the biggest fucking story of the year (tsunami excepted) and you ought to either show the evidence or stop making the accusations.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but the utmost admiration for her courage and strength in getting through everything that has happened to her. I have read her past articles. She's an incredible lady, and seems to be very dedicated to her work. But if she is now to be held up now, so soon after her ordeal, by her compatriots and many folks on these boards as an example of some kind of US policy of killing journalists, then I am well within my rights to request that it be backed up with some actual evidence.

[hue]

She just was fired upon with 300-400 rounds...

by Americans that surely knew who she was. Her bodyguard was killed. Is that not some kind of evidence right there? I mean thats proof "we" tried to kill her--she had already passed checkpoints. Its not as if she fired first man!! :eyes:
If we had doubts we could have simply stopped them!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

argh

>by Americans that surely knew who she was

Now, you can't prove that. You just can't. You can make a rational observation that had the sitation been handled correcty, they *ought* to have known who she was. But there's no way for us to know whether or not they understood who she was. That's my point. You're using circular logic.

>she had already passed checkpoints

Yes, except that she herself has now been quoted as saying they hadn't passed any checkpoints. There are about four AP stories on this right now, all of which appear to contradict one another on the important points of what_actually_happened.

>If we had doubts we could have simply stopped them!

You know damn well that US policy in Iraq is to shoot first, shoot frequently, and ask questions later.

[rooboy]

The chemical weapons in Fallujah story is already out. Just look it up.

U.S. Used Banned Weapons in Fallujah

The Iraqi Health Ministry official sent to Fallujah to assess health conditions after the US laid siege to the city has found that, in their attacks, US forces used substances that are internationally banned - including mustard gas, nerve gas, and other burning chemicals. The official predicted the city's residents would be suffering health consequences for many years to come.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/04/1437206

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

But the evidence isn't there.

Most of what this guy said was never backed up with test results or investigation of the health problems. One would assume, if she actually had something to say, that it would be in the way of evidence of those things.

[rooboy]

It just seems you have trouble believing that Americans can do bad things.

eom.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

I require proof.

Sorry, I'm not going to blindly accept anyone's assertions without proof. I extend the same courtesy to both Mr. Bush and you.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

41. Hey, all I'm waiting for...

...is for her to back up her accusation. It's her accusation, not mine.

As for trusting the government's version of events, when have I ever said anything about their fucking version? I don't give a shit what the US miliary says. I'm much more inclined to believe her chronology (where it isn't blatantly contradictory, as with the question of whether or not they had previously passed checkpoints) because she was actually there, whereas the military's version is coming from some bullshit propoganda officer. But what we're discussing isn't the chronology of what happened. We're discussing whether or not the US did it on purpose, an accusation she has made, and thus the burden of providing proof falls on her. This isn't complicated. If you've got the evidence, show it. If you don't, stop making the accusation. End of story.

[DoYouEverWonder]

50. Here's the first official statement that was made yesterday

regarding this incident, before the story became such a hot potato.

US troops fire at freed hostage

Friday, 4 March, 2005, 22:25 GMT

The US military in Baghdad confirmed that forces shot at a vehicle and said an investigation had been launched.

"About 2100 <1800 GMT>, a patrol in western Baghdad observed the vehicle speeding towards their checkpoint and attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," it said in a statement.

"When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4320111.stm


It seems that the official version of events is failing apart. Funny, the US Official seem very quiet today. Why don't they issue a new statement and just clear the whole thing up? I think the burden of proof is on them at the moment. Otherwise, we have a homicide to investigate and the victim just needs to worry about recovering from her injuries at the moment.

[riverwalker]

51. where is the military's proof?

Seems to me, she is an eyewitness, as are others in the car. I am inclined to believe whatever she has to say. Where is the military's proof to contradict her version? The "burdon of proof" lies with the military, they "accused" her of running a checkpoint. It is their accusation, not hers. She doesn't have to prove squat.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

56. But that's not the point.

The point is not where or when she was shot. You can debate that to death and it still doesn't say anything about whether or not they intentionally shot her, or attempted to shoot her, which is what I thought we were talking about. And yes, the burden of proof lies with the military to prove their accusation about the checkpoint. Quite frankly, I don't think they can prove it, and I suspect they're just covering their ass. This is more or less the standard story they give whenever they shoot a bunch of civilians in a car.

There are many, probably hundreds if not thousands of cases where the US military has shot at cars for no particular reason. That makes them trigger-happy and ridiculously overagressive. That is well established. But it doesn't make them assassins, which is what I thought we were talking about.

[Frederik]

58. Well

It's a little too much to expect her to have any hard evidence, like a tape recording of a phonecall from Negroponte saying "take out that Italian journalist". But she was there and her assessment is that something smells very fishy about it, based upon what she experienced. She has clearly stated what makes her suspicious, about suddenly being fired at from a patrol 700 metres from the airport without forewarning. I think she is entitled to say as much, from her hospital bed.

[natrat]

mr bush

nice

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

Just to be clear...

...that was intended as sarcasm. :)

[LynnTheDem]

38. In 2003 the US admitted to using napalm in Iraq.

Or is that not "evidence" enough?

[TreasonousBastard]

45. Horseshit...

Napalm is specifically banned, but they reformulated and renamed it.

Tommy Franks admitted using the new stuff, just as we used it against tank columns in Gulf I.

Allegations about gas have been made, but the stuff we use in "legal' munitions is so nasty it could easily be mistaken for gas by non-experts who are being bombed at the time.

Now, just who would be doing all of these tests in Fallujah? The Mosul Center for Disease Control? Our people are still trying to deny Agent Orange problems and don't believe there's anything wrong with DU.

The full story, and the true casualty numbers, won't come out for a long time, and by then it will simply be history, not news.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

60. The napalm thing.

Oh, I've no doubt we used not-quite-napalm, but I simply can't see the necessity or reason we would use something like nerve gas or mustard gas. There's such a huge risk involved - of having it come back on your own troops, of accidentally landing some munitions in front of an al jazeera crew with a TV camera that I simply can't see why they would do it. Much simpler to napalm and 2000lb bomb the whole place to pieces. It's just as effective with much lower risks. At some point, logic, common sense, and evidence need to dictate what we chose to believe and what not to believe. Some things are true, and some are not. And I'm not going to believe that we used mustard gas in Falluja based on the word of some scientist who has no evidence, and the fact that bush is an asshole.

[enough]

31. Here's some of what she knows:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3226386

This thread by chlamor has a list of some of what she has been reporting about US aactivities in Iraq.

Not hard to see why they don't want her around.

Ten thousand Iraqis in US and British prisons
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 29 December 2004
Two thousand victims in Fallujah
Giuliana Sgrena, Iraq
il manifesto 26 November 2004
Napalm Raid on Falluja?
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 23 November 2004
The death throes of Fallujah
Giuliana Sgrena
ilmanifesto 13 November 2004
“Stop the massacre”
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 12 November 2004
Bombs and tanks, hell breaks in Falluja
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 09 November 2004
Interview with an Iraki woman tortured at Abu Graib.
Giuliana Sgrena, our correspondent in Baghdad
il manifesto 01 July 2004
“Imminent attack” against Falluja
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 06 November 2004
Flight from a Falluja massacred by bombs
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifestp 21 October 2004
UN: US crimes in Iraq
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 05 June 2004
http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en / (a link to read them in English)

[dbt]

18. Lemme see do I grok this:

On the one hand, "we" still hate Communists. On the other hand, "we" support Wal-Mart's every move to do business with and in COMMUNIST CHINA.

Verily, I grok not.

[hippiechick]

What's grok ?

:shrug: Thanks ~

[lcbart]

technospeak for "understand" n/t

[Soup Bean]

"Stranger in a Strange Land" - Robert A. Heinlein n/t

[rooboy]

19. If all of the Italians had been killed...

all the networks would be covering the story of how they were shot by insurgents. Bet on it.

[truth2power]

35. A most astute observation, Rooboy.

It didn't go according to plan, is my take on it. And the best way for her to honor the courage of her secret service agent is to spread what she knows, far and wide. And the sooner the better.

I think she should be watching her back, even now.

[chomskysright]

68. WHY DID THEY TARGET THE BACK SEAT & not the driver?

[Dufaeth]

29. Has anyone seen an article explaining how she got out alive?

Did they escape and drive to safety? Did the US stop shooting and realize it was a mistake? This would help clarify it in my mind. If the US stopped shooting and then took them to the hospital then I might buy the "fog of war" line.
I have heard their were witnesses though so maybe after approaching the car the wouldn't have been able to pursue it without being clear in their intent. Anyways, anyone know?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

picked up by US troops it would seem

> Did the US stop shooting and realize it was a mistake?

What I've seen reported is that the Americans actually took them into custody, took their weapons and communication devices away, and then rendered medical assistance (in that order.) It's unclear to me when they understood who they had in custody.

Part of what strikes me as bullshit about the assasination theory is that it appears that the same group of Americans who shot at them are also the ones who took them into custody. That doesn't jibe with an assassination attempt, because if you wanted to assassinate someone, you'd shoot them, not take them into custody.

There are multiple threads on this floating around. I'll try to find one and link it.

[jmcgowanjm]

Anyone translate Italian? From Il Manifesto, I presume

"I am still in the buio. E' be that one of friday the more dramatic day of my life ". An article of Giuliana Sgrena in first page begins today with these words on The Manifest in newspaper stand. "They were the many days that I had been seized" writes the journalist. "I had spoken little with my kidnappers, from days said that they would have freed to me (...) To confirmation that something of new was happening to a sure point has come all and two in my room like relieving to me and joking: ' It compliments - they have said to me - you are leaving for Roma'. For Rome, they have said just therefore (...)".

"they are changed to Me of dress. They are return to you: ' we accompany You, and not to give marks them of your presence with to we sennò the Americans can intervenire'. It was the confirmation that I would not have intentional to feel. It was the happier moment and with most dangerous. If they met someone, he is worth to say the soldiers Americans, would have been a shoot-out, my kidnappers were ready and would have answered. I must have the covered eyes (...)".

"the machine walked sure in a marsh zone (...) a helicopter
flew over just the zone at a low altitude where we had
stopped ourselves (...) Then is come down. They are
remained in that condition of immobility and blindness (...) I
have as soon as pointed out mentally to one it counts that
voice has arrived to me endured one friend to the
orecchie: ' Giuliana, Giuliana are Nicholas, not to worry
have spoken with Gabriel Pole to you, are calm, six libera'. It
has made me to remove binds it of cotton and it glances at
them to it black. I have tried relief, not for what it happened
and that I did not understand, but for the words of this ' Nicola'.
It spoke, it spoke, it was uncontrollable, one avalanche
of phrases friends, of struck (...)".

http://wagnews.blogspot.com/2005/03/italian-reporter-survives-likely.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=7216

[jmcgowanjm]

I have felt the last breath of he...

"the machine - always Sgrena writes - continued its road crossing a full puddle underpass (...) Nicholas Calipari has been based to my flank. The driver had for two times communicated in embassy and in Italy that we were directed towards the airport that I knew supercontrolled from the troops Americans, we lacked less than a kilometer they have said to me... when... I memory am fire. To that point a fire rain and projects them has been pulled down on we silencing in order always the voices amused of little minuteren before. The driver has begun to scream that we were Italian, ' is Italian, is italiani'. Nicholas Calipari has thrown itself on me for proteggermi, and endured, I repeat endured, I have felt the last breath of he that he died to me I lean (...)".

"my mind has gone endured to the words that my
kidnappers had said to me. They declared to feel until in
bottom engage to you to free to me, but I had to be
careful ' because there are the Americans who do not want
that you torni'. Then, when me they had said, I had judged
those superfluous and ideological words like. In that moment
for me they risked to acquire the sapore of the most bitter
truth. The rest it I cannot still tell (...)".

"They were 700 meters (yards) from the airport, which
means that they had passed all
checkpoints."

The shooting late Friday was witnessed by Prime Minister
Silvio Berlusconi's office which was on the phone with one of
the secret service agents, said Scolari. "Then the US
military silenced the cellphones," he
charged.

"Giuliana had information, and the US military did not want her
to survive," he added.

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=38029

[all.of.me]

48. from what i've seen of il manifesto online...

... this should be in GOOD english tomorrow. i do read some italian, but it's time consuming to translate. the title of this article is 'my truth.'

[jmcgowanjm]

55. Here it is, in GOOD English-My Truth...

"My Truth": Sgrena gives her account of Iraq shooting
By: AFP

"Nicola Calipari fell on top of me to protect me, and
immediately, I repeat immediately, I felt his last breath and
he died on top of me.

"As for the rest, I can't talk about it
yet.


http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=38091

[sadiesworld]

59. What if only the leader of the patrol knew who was in the car...

and the rest thought it was filled with insurgents. Once it was discovered that some of the car occupants were alive, the leader couldn't very well order the troops to shoot injured Italians, could he?

[hue]

32. Apparently 1,000,000 was paid.

Don't know too much more about it, but the ransom was paid.

[Dufaeth]

I mean, how did they escape the US gun fire?

[NNN0LHI]

AP is trying to find out more info but the military is not cooperationg

AP asked to see the vehicle and the US said they don't know where it is. Thats odd as hell.


http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB934RIY5E.html

<snip>When The Associated Press in Baghdad asked the U.S. military to see the vehicle on Saturday, the military said it didn't know where it was.

Unanswered questions:

- How many people were wounded? The Americans said two civilians. Sgrena and an intelligence agent. Italian authorities said two agents were wounded besides Sgrena. Italian military officials declined to clear up the discrepancy and Berlusconi's office did not respond to a request for information.

- Were the Americans told by the Italians of Sgrena's imminent release or that she would be taken straight to Baghdad airport? Italians will likely be expecting answers early next week when Italian authorities, including Berlusconi, are to brief parliament on the abduction, release and shooting.

- Was ransom paid? An Iraqi lawmaker told Belgian state TV Saturday night that he had "nonofficial" information there was a $1 million payment. A key Italian lawmaker said in September he believed the Italian government paid $1 million for the release of the two women aid workers who were held captive for three weeks. Italy's foreign minister denied that claim.

more

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

"Thats odd as hell."

Heh. They can't even keep track of their own equipment half the time.

>Italian military officials declined to clear up the discrepancy and
>Berlusconi's office did not respond to a request for information.

It would seem that everyone is still trying to figure out what happened. Even the victims own statements to the media contradcit each other (in one instance they say that they'd already been through checkpoints. in another, they say that they hadn't.)

It seems pretty clear that they're all still in shock, as would be expected if something like this happened to anyone.

>Were the Americans told by the Italians of Sgrena's imminent release
>or that she would be taken straight to Baghdad airport?

Still seems unclear. The Italians would be pretty dumb not to inform the state department and the higher-ups in the US military in Iraq, but whether that info was filtered down to the squad level hasn't been reported anywhere that I've seen.

>Was ransom paid?

It seems pretty clear that there are probably two reasons to abduct someone high-profile like a journalist. Either you want to behead them and release the tape, or you want to get some money from their employer or their government. Since she's not dead, I'm assuming it's the latter.

[NNN0LHI]

US military said there is an investigation going on over this

The death car would be a major part of any investigation. That car could provide huge amounts of evidence. So if the US is saying they are investigating this incident but on the other hand say they can't find the car I would say we now have a real contradiction.

Don

[rooboy]

I admire your spunk.

After more than 2 years of lying, raping of women and children, unlawful detention, abduction, murder, theft and propaganda, you're still saluting and giving the US military the benefit of the doubt.

Well done.

[DoYouEverWonder]

My lord, they are out this morning

this incident is a major fubar. Keep plugging and exposing the truth. The above post is nothing but misinformation.

[natrat]

the agents have been dispatched to the "internets"

lot of good it will do,,,a tad obvious,,,then again they seem preety fucking stupid

[DoYouEverWonder]

Their zealousness

amazes me.

[glitch]

67. They are sweating over this one. Good. Sweat on, little piggies.

RIP Nicola Calipari, genuine human.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

No.

I'm just not going to appoint myself judge, jury, and executioner when I have no idea what the fuck actually happened. And no, just because some members of the armed forces are torture-loving rapist fucks does not mean that all of them are. So yes, I'm going to give THESE INDIVIDUALS the benefit of the doubt before I go around accusing them of being sadomasochistic murderers. But to tar an entire group of people, most of whom are NATIONAL GUARD troops who were firefighters or teachers or whatever with the title of RAPIST is completely disgusting. You want to complain that the army administration in Iraq are a bunch of fucktards? Fine. There's ample evidence that they are shitheads. And the policy that put 150,000 of our troops in Iraq and probably killed at least that many Iraqis is a piece of fucking shit, perpetrated by a lying unelected bastard. I don't trust them any farhter then I could throw them. By the same token, I also trust neither the Italian left-wing news media or the Iraqi insurgents. I require proof.

[hue]

1. I guess that's what our military would want to know too!

Well, her secret agent's dead body fell on top of her and she was wound.
But apparently the rain of gunfire was about 300-400 rounds, so it must have been some sort of miracle!

[tlcandie]

61. My take....

700 meters from airport...Busc on phone and hears the gunfire coming from the car... all cell phones are killed by US atm.

IMO, it was not a checkpoint, she is correct, but someone overhead maybe or who was waiting beside the road...lying in wait for them and knew exactly where they would be and when according to the slow/normal speed they were driving.

Possibly, as someone else stated, maybe only the leader of this pack new it was the Italians and drew down to fire. If it were hired guns or psyops then it wouldn't matter who it was that was being killed...you do the job and go home. They dropped in to check to see if all were nice and dead when the Italians ran in from the airport (not too far and shouldn't take too long once hearing gunfire on cells and cell lines going dead).

When the Italians arrived, this pack appeared to have happened upon them or found them, some still alive and helped to get them rescued as they could NOT finish the job.

That's my take. Pure conjecture nothing to back it up except seeing it as a possibility.

[TahitiNut]

42. Recent related threads in LBN ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1288442
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1287949
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1286252
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1287674
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1288478
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1286417
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1286617
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1286132
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1287791
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1286002
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1284364
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1286103
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1285535

[NNN0LHI]

44. Thanks TN. You da man n/t

[TahitiNut]

49. (grin) Just a DUer having difficulty keeping up with DUer postings.

:silly:

[dArKeR]

63. How can AP's MARIA SANMINIATELLI write 'sped' when Sgrena said it's not

true?
 Meanwhile, an autopsy performed on the agent who died trying to save Giuliana Sgrena reportedly showed he was struck in the temple by a single round and died instantly as the car carrying Sgrena sped to the Baghdad airport

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050306/ap_on_re_eu/italy_iraq_hostage

[tlcandie]

64. One in the temple ...

awfully good sharp-shooting there, eh?