New Studies Point to Crisis Among U.S. Black Men

[Rose Siding]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A batch of new studies suggesting that black males in the United States are falling ever further behind other groups in health, education and employment has ignited a debate within the black community about who is to blame and what can be done.
...
Whatever the causes, the latest figures paint a bleak picture. For example, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said in December that 51 percent of all HIV diagnoses were among blacks, who make up less than 13 percent of the population.
...
Another recent study by the American Council on Education showed that twice as many black women as men now attend college. Over the past decade, the high school graduation rate for black men has fallen to 43 percent, while that of black women has risen to 56 percent.
...
A report in June for the Alternative Schools Network found that in 2002 one in every four black men in the United States was permanently unemployed, a rate double that of white men and 70 percent higher than among Asian and Hispanic men.
...
In its most recent report on the nation's prison population, the Department of Justice found that at the end of 2003, over 9 percent of all black males aged 26 to 29 were incarcerated, compared to 2.6 percent of Hispanics and 1.1 percent of whites.

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=7784193

[slor]

1. Welcome to bush's America n/t

[hector459]

74. If all the white men in the US who were guilty of crimes were charged and

jailed, served their time, and then tried to gain employment the plight of white males would be comparable. It's one way to keep black males as the cannon fodder for the military.

[Beetwasher]

2. Whiners!!! It's White Men Who Are Being Reverse Discriminated Against!!

Damn those affirmative action programs! /sarcasm/

Everyone hold on to this article for all the whiny white men who pop up around here moaning about reverse discrimination.

[Sivafae]

12. ^Amen! N/T

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beetwasher]

23. Uhh, Maybe Because Most People Who Work There Are White

And even AFTER the layoffs, I suspect that's STILL the case. Duh.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[are_we_united_yet]

45. I suggest you think it thru

before you post something inflammatory.

[Beetwasher]

59. Yeah, I'll Take Your Word For It

:eyes:

I didn't say EVERY one who works there is white, but I'll guarantee MOST of the employees are white and therefore MOST let go would be white. Duh.

Are you telling me that they ONLY let go whites? I don't think so.

All that being said, I think you're full of shit anyway. Did you do a survey of EVERYONE who was laid off? Or is this just bullshit, rumor mongering, hearsay? Let me guess...

[are_we_united_yet]

47. How many of the African Americans did they keep

All three of them?

By the way I know an African American who WAS laid off from HP. I guess he was just STUPID!

[Terran]

58. You must be kidding

why is it that most of the guys they kept are black/asian/hispanic?

Do you have any evidence to back up that absurd rhetorical question? Because if you don't, then stop wasting our time.

[bling bling]

60. oh for pete's sake.

so obvious.

[Rose Siding]

3. Half of minority students graduate compared to 75% of whites

That's according to 2001 data used in this recent article-
snip>
According to the CPI measure, the national average high school graduation rate for all students is 68 percent, Edley said. White students have the highest graduation rate -- 75 percent. It's 53 percent among Hispanics, 51 percent for Native Americans and 50 percent for African-Americans, the report said.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04057/277625.stm

[XemaSab]

88. That's truly depressing

Why so low, even among whites?

How can it be that 32% of people in the US did not finish high school? Where are these people? Do they work? Do they have kids? What's happening with them?

[Igel]

4. Universities and colleges are seriously worried about this.

It's a dirty little secret that they do pretty much everything they can think of and use what financial resources they have available to help AA males finish, and AA women graduate at a much higher rate than males.

UCLA and UCOP always freely cited the 4- and 5-year graduation graduate rates for the student body as a whole. They trumpeted the percentage and numbers of entering AA freshmen, male and female (or complained about the numbers, in the wake of the Regents' anti-affirmative action decree). You could get the AA graduation rates, it wasn't easy. It was embarrassing. They didn't even like discussing the numbers in committee meetings where students were present.

And it's gotten steadily worse in the last 25 years. Crisis is a good word to describe it.

[Tsiyu]

5. THE saddest thing about living in America

is that the majority would rather spend $$$$$ incarcerating black males than $$$$$ building and equipping schools in black neighborhoods, or sending those same men to college.

White people( and I guess i am one) SUCK.

[progressivebydesign]

6. The saddest thing is actually that this LBN is about 10 years late..

.. We here at DU don't need expensive studies to tell us that there is a crisis. There has been for 10 or 20 years. And the pundits tell us that many blacks voted for Bush over the gay marriage issue. Doesn't seem right...

[XemaSab]

89. There's been a crisis

among African Americans in this country for 500 years.

[forgethell]

7. That is a

very racist statement.

[Tsiyu]

8. Yes, indeed

And many's the time i have been embarassed to be Caucasian.

There are some good White folks. But when I hear Yuppie White males go off about how "tough it is" for their poor widdle selves; when I hear Confederates claim they "won't forget" something that happened a hundred years ago ( while closing their eyes to the injustices of TODAY) I have to say: Many White people SUCK.

My opinion.

[forgethell]

10. Well, some of

them certainly do.

[shanti]

36. then why didn't you just say

"some" wp suck...because that's the truth, ruth.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

21. No, it's hardly racist

Too many black men are so busy trying to obliterate much of what they are that they almost automatically align themselves with their oppressors. It's a variation on the Stockholm Syndrome, with a deadly glaze of self-loathing.

Check out the numbers of black man infected with HIV, and then check out the numbers of black women also infected. There is a very, very large population of black men leading closeted homosexual lives and getting themselves infected. Then, they bring the virus home to the women with whom they're also having sex.

There is a frightening amount of hatred for homosexuals in the African-American community, and these men are much more afraid of being outed as gay than they are of getting HIV.

It's terrible. A kind of self-annihilation. There's a racial holocaust taking place, and black men are the ones who are leading it.

[forgethell]

30. So, how do you

get "white people suck" is not racist out of your comments?

First, it refers to race in a derogatory sense. Second, it steroetypes white people. How can it not be racist?

[sandnsea]

32. It's based on fact

400 years of slavery. The "civilization" of the American Indian. On and on and on. It isn't making a blanket statement about white culture with no basis in fact. Racism seeks to opress groups and is based on falsehoods. White people suck, based on history, is a fact which ought to make white people take a good look in the mirror. I am responsible for my culture and the culture that enslaved blacks and slaughtered Indians still exists.

[forgethell]

42. All people suck

slavery is alive and well in Africa today. The slave masters are the noble black man. The history of man kind is one of war. Indians slaughtered each other. What about the cannibalistic Aztecs?

You go ahead and be responsible for your culture. What I want to know is, do you accept responsibility for yourself? That is all that I am willing to accept responsibility for.

It is a racist statement condemning an entire race for the sins of some of them. It doesn't matter about your so-called facts. There are lots of uncomfortable acts about any group of people that you care to name and you are, it seems to me, rationalizing a prejudice.

[sandnsea]

49. Me me me

What a helluva way to live. I'm responsible for the culture I live in, that's the White Anglo Saxon Protestant culture of the good ol' USA. It sucks. White people who don't get that it sucks, suck. Based on historical fact and continuing denial of those facts.

"The unexamined life is not worth living."

[forgethell]

52. Then perhaps

you should start examining your own life to determine why you feel the need to lecture others on their responsibilities when they are perfectly capable of, and have the sole right to determine that for themselves.

[sandnsea]

77. That's the only way change happens

When people stand up to injustice. You can't use the mantra "personal reponsiblity" as a mask for no responsibility at all, which is what the right wing does all the time.

[forgethell]

90. Since when does a

second injustice count as standing up to injustice??

[sandnsea]

93. What second injustice?

Admitting that Manifest Destiny was wrong? Admitting that tribal cultures didn't need Christianizing? Admitting that Indians were slaughtered because of that attitude? Admitting that 400 years of slavery has harmed Africans in ways we haven't even begun to explore or understand? Admitting that African-Americans built the South, not any white Christian plantation owner?

What second injustice is any of that?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

37. Because it's an opinion within a narrowly circumscribed topic

And I lack the need you have to categorize someone because you don't agree with them. Within this context, I agree - white people DO suck.

Gotta keep that mind open and not be so quick to label. That gets us all in trouble.

[forgethell]

43. So, the opinion

of someone that "black people suck" is also justified because it is "an opinion within a narrowly circumscribed topic"?? ROFLMAO POA. Lordy, you really are a lawyer.

I guessing here that my mind is at least as open as any racist's is, whether he be white or black. As for categorizing people because they don't agree with you, let me just quote. See if you know where it comes from: "Physician heal thyself".

LOL

[OldLeftieLawyer]

44. You got the quote wrong

I'd recommend you study punctuation. Very often, it's punctuation that makes words make sense.

There are times that black people suck. I would say that when gangs of black kids are attacking their own neighbors and no one rises to a defense or does anything to stop it, that's an instance of black people sucking.

I'd say that the riots in South Central were a prime example of black people sucking. If you're old enough to remember what happened in Watts, that's another example.

As for the personal attack, given my choice of profession, I must inform you now that, after almost thirty years in practice, my motto has become, "Stupidity has been very, very good to me."

It's folks like you who have made folks like me very, very comfortable.

Now, go read some history and follow that up with studying some logic. Yours is sloppy, faulty, and, because of those shortcomings, draws to an erroneous conclusion.

You might want to proofread your posts, too, since your errors and omissions make them hard to follow. I'm still not sure what's pissed you off in the original post - which wasn't mine. It may be that you're just not well-versed in American history.

But, I do believe you're trainable.

[forgethell]

46. No, I got the quote right..

And stupidity may have been very good to you. But don't try it on me.

However, I have always been careless about commas. "Physician, heal thyself."

[OldLeftieLawyer]

48. Congratulations

With proper punctuation, you got the quote right. Without it, it has a whole different meaning.

"Don't try it on you"??????????

Oh, dear lord, I'm laughing so hard right now.

You're precious. Thanks so much for the laughs.

[forgethell]

51. It was

not meant as a compliment. Leave it to a lawyer to distort the plain meaning of everything.

Reading over my posts again, I don't really see that the meaning changed much by the absence of the comma. It's the kind of detail that is of interest and importance only to a lawyer. This is the kind of thing that makes lawyers pretty much universally despised. Except, of course, when you need one, generally because of the evil machinations of another lawyer.

You're a hoot, too, and a POA. Besides, you never really did address the racism inherent in the statement of "white people SUCK". Are we progressives, or are we hypocritical racists? I'm beginning to get an idea.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[forgethell]

61. Well,

it was actually in reference to the 2000 election.

I think you understand nothing.

[Tsiyu]

63. That's good to hear

I was going to wash my computer out if I was dealing with one of them....

Attacking lawyers , however, is so juvenile. (In my opinion, of course.) It is classist, which is the same thing as racist: categorizing one group of people as different, worse, etc. than YOU are. I am White, for the most part, therefor I feel I have the experience to say my people suck. It's called freedom of speech, and I would hardly say i discriminate against myself...Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

[forgethell]

67. Well, certainly you have the

right to be wrong. That's what rights are about.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

64. Too late, too slow, too wrong

Try as you might to piggyback upon what I've slapped you around with, your most recent post fails, simply because your mind is closed, and you're entirely too hung up on my screen name.

Funny, but your screen name means nothing to me. Suggests some serious intimidation matters on your part, not to mention your appalling ignorance of American history. That you feel the need to rant about lawyers - once again, far, far off the topic - tells me how far down the ladder you see yourself. For that, I do pity you.

But, if you're 'beginning to get an idea,' I applaud you again. I expect that doesn't happen very often in your world.

Congratulations. Maybe on top of the "idea" you might get, you'll develop some curiosity about the world around you and the things that came before, and you won't get all hot and wiggly because you're able to ::: gasp ::: get the attention of a real, honest-to-god professional.

Good luck, and thanks again for the laughs.

[TygrBright]

54. Y'know, the irony of white people...

...claiming that it's possible to be "racist" against whites, in a society that has been overwhelmingly dominated by whites for several hundred years now, reminds me a lot of the irony of American fundie nutjobs claiming that they're discriminated against because they're "Christian" in a country where an overwhelmingly vast majority of the citizens identify themselves as espousing or coming from a Christian faith tradition.

Things that make you go, "hmmmmmm...."

observantly,
Bright

[forgethell]

62. And the ignorance

of people who think that it is not possible for non-whites to be racist appalls me. Only by redefining the plain meaning of the words could someone get away with a moronic statement like that.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

65. My goodness

Your simplistic thinking is simply horrifying.

And your namecalling when someone disagrees with you is offensive.

In all this discussion of race and its problems here in America, I note that you're the only one who degraded the discussion with personal insults and attacks.

It's a pity you have nothing else to contribute.

[forgethell]

68. Personal insults and attacks???

No. I attacked the "white people SUCK" meme, which is offensive, racist, bigoted, and close-minded.

Naturally, you wouldn't understand.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

72. So all that nonsense about lawyers.....

that was spewed by someone who took over your keyboard?

Of course.

It wasn't you.

Not only are you ill-mannered, you're also a coward, and do not own up to your very own actions. Shame on you.

[forgethell]

75. I only

attacked your lawyerly twisting and distorting of words. I made a few jokes on your own words. You know, how stupidity makes you comfortable. That I can well believe. However, lawyers are a group. I did not attack you as a individual, I do not believe, although I think your ideas are racist. "white people suck"?? How can you defend that and call yourself a liberal?

However, no, I do not like lawyers. Except for wills and mortgages, I have managed to live my life in such a way as to have no professional contact with them, and that's the way I like it. I do know a few socially. A couple are good fellows, a couple more are major league assholes.

I will just say this: you seem to be very thin-skinned. Everybody makes lawyer jokes. So if you can't take it, maybe you should refrain from dishing it out???

As for being a coward, what have I got to be afraid of? There is nothing you can do to me, nor I to you. As that great Democrat, Harry Truman, once said, "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

[eridani]

50. Reminds me of what Jesse Jackson said in the 80s--

Penn State $4000 a year; State Pen $20,000 a year! Train our youth!

[Ellen Forradalom]

66. Beautifully said.

He was so damned right, too.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

9. Hip hop culture

While not the major cause, I think the hip hop culture - gangsta rap thing has an impact on men. They see people who have gained their fame based on how many times they've been shot, people who measure success by the bling bling they have instead of measuring success by achieving an education. Many men see hip hop as the easy way to become mega rich while having to do little to earn it.

If these hip hop guys started celebrating an education instead of their childish rivalries or how many times they've been shot, maybe it would inspire more men to get an education.

[Tsiyu]

11. You obviously weren't alive during the Civil Rights struggles of the 60's

Do a bit of research. This problem goes back a long way, starting with slavery, forcing families apart so that they never learned how to be families, keeping Blacks and native Americans ignorant so that reading skills were not passed down to children, outfitting White schools with all the best while forcing Black students to take whatever measly crumbs the gov't threw at them, denying Blacks higher education, I could go on.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

13. No, I wasn't alive

and, to be perfectly honest, I wasn't even in this country until 1987. I am certain this problem has a longer history as you suggest. I was just trying to illustrate my non-American perception of the issue. I'm not saying that all root causes would be gone if the hip hop lifestyle were not glorified, but at least it would take out what I perceive to be a major cause for modern problems, especially in urban areas like NYC.

But what about recent Asian immigrants, some of whom come illegally, part of modern slave trade, stowed in containers, malnourished and from very poor families? Asians consistently outperform and outscore even wealthy Caucasian students in school. Yet, some do not surely come from stable families or backgrounds.

Whatever the root causes are, I hope that they are resolved soon. I will also point out that one of the smartest people I have ever known was at my high school. Yet, despite being bright, he was never placed in AP classes, while his definitely less bright affluent counterparts were. Go figure! (/sarcasm off)

[ourbluenation]

14. This is the indirect result of dragging a group of people here kicking...

and screaming against their will all those years ago. Government policies created this and government policies MUST fix this.

[solinvictus]

19. So you're saying send them back?

I'm not a fan of "reparations" as not a single living black American was actually a chattel slave. If we talk reparations for them, everyone in the US descended from an Irish indentured servant is entitled as well.

[Hard_Work]

53. You're comparing

indentured servitude with slavery? Wow. You DO know that indentured servants were basically volunteeers, for whatever reason, right? They saw it as a way to improve the condition of their families/themselves, by selling themselves into servitude FOR A SET NUMBER OF YEARS, in exchange for the chance to start a life in America for themselves and their families. They were not forced to give up their culture, either...

Slavery, on the other hand, was the forcible taking, chaining, and packing into ships (so tightly that movement was impossible) of millions of Black people, the transporting of same (along with the deaths of up to half the cargo sometimes) to a new land where they didn't speak the language, weren't allowed to remain together as families, weren't allowed to learn to read, were forced to work from sunrise to beyond sunset, and fed scraps and leftovers, beaten for showing the least bit of spirit...with absolutely NO possibility of things getting better for their entire lives.

Wow.

[Tsiyu]

57. Welcome to DU Hard_Work

Awesome post :hi:

[Judi Lynn]

83. Thanks for that post. Wish we saw more people capable of serious thought

about this subject. It would transform the level of communication, rather than allowing it to be sabotaged by hostile, short-sighted, ignorant, self-obsessed slow learners.

[One_Life_To_Give]

15. Yeah but what does that have to do with current declines

But the conditions of 30 years ago shouldn't be the principal reason graduation rates for AA men are dropping. Nor does it explain why AA women are improving their numbers while AA men are declining.

[Tsiyu]

56. I imagine given our current state of affairs

graduation rates are gonna drop for everyone.

It's just more devastating to the A-A community because they already have so many strikes against them.

Look at the difference between Rush Limpdick and his addiction and the same addiction in an inner city Black male. Who is going to jail? Who will have their record permanently tainted? Not the fat White guy, and all of us know it.

It's fucking ridiculous that these things even have to be pointed out to anyone....Sorry. Personal Pet Peeve.

[chickenscratching]

70. right on, right on

"look at the difference between Rush Limpdick and his addiction and the same addiction in an inner city black male. who is going to jail?"

totally, it's just like white-collar crime, you never hear about it, what do you hear about? you turn on the news and you see scads of black people causing havoc, creating such a problem...we are living in fear man, fear of the black man. damn

[KansDem]

39. Don’t replace one totalitarian culture with another…

I don’t know much about hip-hop culture, but I’m fairly aware that when one replaces one totalitarian culture with another, there isn’t much progress. By this I mean that pop culture, in general, with its stringent rules regarding dress, language, customs, values, etc is, in essence, a totalitarian culture. I don’t know how many times growing up that I was told what I should be listening to or what I should be watching, what I should be wearing and how I should speak. And if I didn’t toe the pop-culture party line, I was weird; an outcast. I’ve had it with pop culture and its pretense of liberation and anti-establishment claptrap. I remember Elvis, the Beatles when they appeared on Ed Sullivan, the Rolling Stones, and every other freedom-inhibiting media creation to come along. And you all thought the Monkees were bad!

I just never learned how to worship a fellow mortal.

Oh, and by the way. I heard John Lennon's "Imagine" on the elevator last week...

[chickenscratching]

71. sweet! was it redone complete with sax/flute solos? n/t

[KansDem]

87. Nah, it was original...

I often wonder how boomers feel about hearing their favorite rock tunes, the voice of a new generation and the symbols of peace, love and rebellion, used as Muzak.

Perhaps we have embarked on a new era in commercial music: Rockzak
:shrug:

[chickenscratching]

92. rockzak, i like it!

although it sounds so much more awesome-o than it really is (the word rockzak).
my favorite is when you hear madonnas 'like a virgin' arranged with flute.
yikes.

[ghardy68]

16. Helloooooooo

People please understand that this is not a coincidence. This is happening world wide. We can point the finger at a lot of things such as white controlled rap industry that promotes this gangster rap. We could look at racial profiling as well as over policing in some areas. The main factor is that white folks have ostracized the Non Native African male here in AmeriKKKa. There are many ways that this happens one includes labeling intelligent ,assertive or confident black males as aggressive and refusing to promote them or hire . There is also the problems of teaching our people the white man's history instead of their own African history. This history if properly taught could empower and give some meaning to a life here in America. It's a shame that our children still learn to glorify the men that raped and traded their ancestors like cattle. It really bothers me because the Jews got a homeland after their brutal holocaust and after 400 years of slavery here in AmeriKKKa we can't even open discussion about the issue within the UN or Congress how insulting. It's also our own fault because we have become too passive in our political circles. Years ago Uncle Tom's wouldn't dare speak for our community but now they are every where without recourse.

[Tsiyu]

34. Welcome, ghardy68

:hi:

Your points deserve consideration.

Thanks for posting them.

[spunky]

38. How can you say that the rap industry is controlled by whites?

Sean Combs, Jay-Z, Dr. Dre, etc. The rap industry moguls are African American. They earned success for themselves, then began creating their own labels and seeking new talent on their own.

There are a lot of problems in the African American community that can be legitimatly traced back to situations created by white America. I don't think the rap industry is one of them.

[AngryAmish]

17. One word - Reparations

[parsifal_e]

18. Exactly.....

what was done to them ..... shipping them to america on ships like cattle ....all the financial compensation in the world can't undo . Considering the circumstances I think african americans are doing their best (remember that the civil war is just 3 generations away , and if born into poverty unlike the famous few who "make it" most people remain in poverty ). the anglosaxons should put their money where their mouth is ...just saying we're sorry is not enough!.

[forgethell]

31. I think that is

a great idea. Let's get the government to start a trust supported by strictly voluntary donations so that those that feel guilty for something that ended over 100 years before they were born can get it out of their system without raping the rest of us.

[sandnsea]

35. Nope

Recognition of historic contribution within our society. What Southern Heritage? Slaves built the south, they need to claim the southern plantation economy as their own. There isn't enough money in the world to buy pride and community contribution. People have to have a connection to their community and a sense of having built it in order to take ownership and improve it.

[lyonn]

20. Doesn't it make sense to improve inn-city schools?

It seems in the last 20 or so years that schools in predominately black or hispanic schools are in terrible shape. If these school districts built smaller schools where there was a close community feeling for these students, where they felt responsible for each other it would make such a difference. In OKC we have BIG OLD schools where it appears it is not possible to feel pride in school or achievements. Even in our supposedly better suburban schools the pecking order is ridiculous between the haves and have nots. But, the inner city is terrible. Gangs seems to be a way to be someone, instead of pride in grade excellence. We are going backwards in our education system. Having gone to school in Northern Calif. in the 50's this seems so apparent. All this Bush talk of Democratizing the world makes me ill, what about here in the good ol' US?

[Yupster]

24. My number one villain in all these statistics

is the high number of boys growing up without fathers in their homes.

I think if that one thing were reversed, all these other bad stats would start to reverse themselves too.

The problem of course is how to do it.

The last stats I saw was that over 2/3rds of all A-A babies were born into unmarried homes. That leaves whole communities where fathers are a rarity. That's got to be a disaster for the boys and I think we're seeing it in all the stats sited in this study.

So, what to do about it?

[ourbluenation]

26. Reperations? No!

That's not what I'm saying at all. Effective social programs may play a part in the solution.

[ghardy68]

28. Reparations

I'm not advocating handing out checks but there has to be something done. You see many whites don't ask their grandparents why didn't they want Non Native Africans to attend school with them? In the white communities there are fourth and fifth generation college graduates while in the Black Communities there are first or second generation college graduates. So where is the fairness? How do you justify that? The day when white folks realize the magnitude of the problems their ancestors have created for them today to live in their cozy suburban homes all safe and everything, it will probably be too late. As an African we have to demand justice for our ancestors and create safe neighborhoods where how tough you are doesn't matter. Yes the music breeds physicality and the streets sustain it. School does nothing for someone bred to disrupt and assault so many black males get behind then frustrated and thus drop out for the streets. Until we bring security to our neighborhoods our young men will continue their assault on themselves. I say themselves because they are the ones being locked up for sustaining the streets and bootleg economy that white folks need.

[Ian David]

27. Obviously, it must have something to do with gay marriage, right?

Because, after all, we never had these problems until gay people started getting married.

The problem is, black ministers with a couple thousand people in their congregation can't sit them down and say, "I am going to fix all your marriages and cure all your societal ills."

What they CAN do is round them up and say, "Let's go after the gay people and ruin THEIR marriages and blame THEM for our societal ills, and I promise that you will feel like I was actually effective at something, because I sure as hell can't get you all jobs in THIS economy."

[sweetheart]

33. The classic argument of genetics vs. environment

The repukes stand on genetics, that a person is "born" flawed and that
nothing can be done... (unsaid is the racism of this presumption).

In contrast, progressives know that the likelihood of a person getting
involved in crime, drugs, and all the litany of horrors of the underculture
is based on how much nurturing and love a child recieves before the
age of 6.

This question is well presented in that eddie murphy film "changing
places"... (not the before 6 thing, but the environment/genetics thing)

So the solution then, is to pay mothers/fathers to stay home with their
children, and to reduce childhood poverty, as this is correlated
as well, to the treatment of the 1/3rd of american children who are
raised in households below the poverty line.

[candy331]

41. Sounds good to mimic these figures but since it is said that Blacks

have these children out of wedlock, then here is my question. SINCE SOME OF THESE SAME FIGURE GATHERS SAY over 1/2 OF ALL MARRIAGES IN THE US ARE ENDING IN DIVORCE, DOESN'T THAT LEAVE THESE FAMILIES W/O A FATHER IN THE HOUSE TOO? So seems the problem of w/o fathers in the home are across the board.

[Charon]

85. Good Point

However, most of the divorced people I know have remarried. I do not know what the statistics on remarrage rates. But that does put a male role model back in the picture, even if he is not the biological father.

[cap]

25. in NYC there are a lot of black men hawking newspapers

eom

[texasdem99]

29. Thanks Bush

You and your neocon pals have screwed the country.

[pedestrian]

69. Let's forget reparations

for the evils done hundreds of years ago, while DEFINITELY paying reparations for the injustices still being commited today. The bill will be huge anyway. Compensating for present injustices would, by definition, involve

- building lots of new, well-lighted, air-conditioned schools in the inner cities
- staffing these schools with highly qualified teachers
- providing health care* and access to counseling for black children
- providing high quality after-school tutoring for all children (those in risk of failing AND those who can use some enrichment; that's everybody)
- start college programs in all prisons, for those who have already been through basic schooling but under dismal conditions

These efforts would repair some of the damage done by slavery TO THE CURRENT GENERATION. The losses suffered by previous generations is unfortunately beyond our influence.

* I've wondered about how many of the African American boys who act out at school are actually suffering from undiagnosed ADHD or something. When white children are unable/unwilling to adapt to school culture, parents will often seek out medical counsel in case medication can help their child concentrate. Is this possibility generally considered before a black kid is written off as hopeless? I wish...

The Pedestrian

[chickenscratching]

73. welcomewelcomewelcome!

though i am fairly new too, welcome pedestrian. :)
definitely well said; reparations would do very little (in my opinion) to help the situation at hand, we need to tackle the current issues of today or else we'll be sitting here three generations later, talking about reparations for blacks that didn't receive proper education/health insurance, etc.
we can't change what happened in the past, but we can learn from it and use it to change lives for the better, in the future.

[pedestrian]

80. Thank you :-)

It's quite a nice place...

The Pedestrian

[forgethell]

76. All that sounds good, except

the prison college programs. First, make sure all kids you want to go to college, and have kept out of trouble with the law get the chance. Then, with any money left over, the criminal's needs can be addressed.

[pedestrian]

78. Access to higher education in prison

dramatically reduces recidivism, according to lots of studies, and a large proportion of the inmate population is there for parole violation. No wonder - when you are incarcerated at 18 for a minor or moderate drug offense, then spend several years isolated from the world, in the company of hard criminals, in an environment where routines and expectations are totally different from what they are in most workplaces, what chances do you have of finding and holding a job when you get out?

If we can reduce recidivism (and education in prison is the most effective way I know about) we'll reduce the inmate population very significantly, and bring fathers back to the sons they should be taking care of before they embark on a criminal career. We're talking about reparations, right? We need to compensate for the effects of a vicious circle that currently holds almost 10% of young black men between 26 and 29 in jail, and that causes some 40% of black men to be incarcerated at some point in their lifetime.

(Anyone still unsure about whether we owe this group reparations?!)

The Pedestrian

[forgethell]

86. The kids

that have earned it by staying out of trouble first, black and white. Then the criminals.

As for reparations, you pay what you owe. Leave us people who never owned a slave,and never discriminated, out of your repayment structure, please. I owe no one anything that I didn't contract for myself.

[pedestrian]

79. And as for the "money left over",

remember that incarceration is awfully expensive too - it is at least comparable in price to college education.

The Pedestrian

[okieinpain]

81. makes that fake article attributed to serena williams, even more

factual. the fake article has serena saying that she only dates white men because there are no black males on her level. the article even has her saying that once artificial insemination becomes normal or more accepted that black men will become unnecessary. hmmmmmmm

http://www.snopes.com/sports/tennis/serena.asp

[FlemingsGhost]

82. Ahem... they've been in crisis since being loaded onto slave ships.

God Ble$$ America

[psychopomp]

84. So true, so true

[XemaSab]

91. Reparations

should be in the form of free state college education for African Americans (if not everyone).

I'm not sure that the length of time someone's family has gone to college is the largest factor here. My mom was the first person in her entire family (50+ cousins included) to go to college. I would suggest that knowing people in the community who have gone to college is important, and having a family expectation of going to college is important too.

The role of gangsta rap and hip hop in African American life is touchy. I'm white, and I listen to hip hop on the radio, and the thing that gets me is partly the violence, but mostly the sex. Half the songs they play on the radio are basically explicitly about sex. Even the songs that aren't exclusively about sex have a lot of strong sexual imagery. It seems to promote a culture of casual, recreational sex. But like gangsta rap, it's a fine line between promoting a culture and reflecting it.

It's hard to have an honest discussion about why African Americans continue to do poorly in our society. There's always a fear of being percieved as racist if you allow any explanation other than chronic, ongoing racism that all whites are complicit in. On the other hand, it is too easy to think up pseudo-racist explanations for why different cultural groups respond to societal pressures differently. The truth is somewhere is between.

White people aren't responsible for the growing HIV rate among African Americans. You can't slow or stop the spread of HIV in this population if your only explanation for the cause is "white racism."

Ditto for a lot of other problems that plague the African American community. Some problems can in part be solved by adequate funding, but there's a point where throwing money at the situation doesn't help.

I went to a school for a year that was predominantly African American in Oakland, California. The population was maybe 85% black, 5% white, 5% Asian, and 5% Hispanic. The school building was nice and well maintained, and the teachers were good and tried really hard. But nobody learned anything and the kids were chronically out of control. Fights were common (2-3x daily) and most of the kids were illiterate or barely literate in 6th grade.

All the usual explanations for why black kids do poorly fell apart. The school building was nice. Classes weren't abnormally huge. The teacher was fully credentialed, and though she was white, she was married to a black man and her kids were mixed race, so it wasn't that the teacher was racist. And none of the kids lived in the actual, literal projects. The neighborhood wasn't a ghetto. Most of the kids were poor, but probably not much poorer than I was, and I came from a single-mother household. And the African American kids so dominated the demographics of the school that it wasn't that they were intimidated by the white kids, or held back for being black.

The kids just had no interest whatsoever in learning. They'd go to class and just screw around. And this had clearly been going on for a long time. A 6th grade teacher shouldn't be spending most of the class time working on reading skills. That's ridiculous.

There's a point where some personal responsibility has to take over. The blame for that situation was with either the kids or their families, I don't know which.