DeLay says U.S. need not separate church, state

[truthpusher]

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3063337

March 1, 2005, 5:17PM
Associated Press
-----------------------------
DeLay says U.S. need not separate church, state
-----------------------------
WASHINGTON - House Majority Leader Tom DeLay said today there is no constitutional guarantee of separation of church and state as the Supreme Court prepared to take up a case challenging the display of the Ten Commandments on the Texas Capitol grounds.

"I hope the Supreme Court will finally read the Constitution and see there's no such thing, or no mention, of separation of church and state in the Constitution," said DeLay, a Republican from Sugar Land.

The First Amendment of the Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..."

complete story: http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3063337

[Clark2008]

1. Um, DeLay, it's supposed to already be separated.

Geesch.

What spin.

[NC_Nurse]

2. Great!

Welcome to the new theocratic America! Check your rights at the door, please! American Taliban here we come! :dunce:

[LSparkle]

3. " ... the free exercise thereof" -- in PRIVATE PLACES

Not in government buildings! Nobody is complaining about displaying the Ten Commandments in a church, synogogue, private home, you dickhead ...

[PurityOfEssence]

40. people may freely exercise as they please, but not as part of government

This means a public employee of any sort: a teacher, a dog catcher, an idiot Judge or anything else; they can't endorse the concept as an act of their public duties.

A religious person's desire to invoke religion on his/her free time, is personal, but when that person attempts to do it in the name of the government, it's establishment. It's saying that the government endorses this concept. The wording is quite clear: it's not a particular religion, it's the concept itself.

As a person, people may espouse whatever, but in the act of being a governmental employee or officer, it's illegal.

Nobody's arguing for anti-religiousness in the course of doing governmental business, just religion-neutral acts. These people want to require religion, and that's precisely what Article One was meant to stop: it makes one group an aristocracy and their opinions above reproach or need to be proved.

Someone posting sacred symbols in public buildings when NOT a part of the government infringes on my right to free expression thereof, so the two nullify each other and their icons should be removed. Free expression is a two-way street: their demands to dominate infringe on my right to fantasy-free public places. In non-governmental buildings and publications, they can do as please.

[jdj]

44. what would we call it, christocracy, religocracy or something...

that is so true, it does make an aristocracy.

[Bill McBlueState]

59. anti-religious vs. religiously neutral

The problem fundamentalists pose to a diverse society is that for them, the concept of religious neutrality, which has served the modern world so well, is an out-an-out anti-religious idea. For them, there is no middle ground. To a fundie, being neutral to religion is being hostile to their particular religion. So they put civilized people in a difficult position.

[Zenlitened]

68. Bingo.

That's exactly right. "He not for me is against me." So unless you're singing hosannas in one of their churches (and dumping cash into their collection plates) your an ENEMY. Sick twisted, thinking.

[gratuitous]

4. Read the constitution yourself, Bugman!

There is only one mention of religion, and that's in the First Amendment. The one that starts off with "Congress shall make no law." The government isn't supposed to be in the business of religion.

[NYC]

48. Treaty of Tripoli.

The Treaty of Tripoli, 1796.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tripoli1.htm

ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is
not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-- as
it has in itself no character of enmity against the
laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, -- and as the
said States never have entered into any war or act of
hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared
by the parties that no pretext arising from religious
opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the
harmony existing between the two countries.

[LostInAnomie]

5. No mention of fair trial, or freedom of religion either.

They are just short phrases that envelope the HUGE ideas based in the Constitution and developed through the democratic process. It is absolutely disingenuous to prey on the general public's ignorance of the constitution to push a theocratic agenda.

[joefree1]

6. Uh Tom, a few words from our founding fathers ...

"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion, but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law."
-- Thomas Paine

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
-- Benjamin Franklin

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
-- James Madison

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced."
-- John Adams

"They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility, against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough too in their opinion."
-- Thomas Jefferson

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
-- James Madison

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear."
-- Thomas Jefferson

That Tom Delay is such a jerk.
-- me

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

11. Great quotes...including your own. nt

[Tux]

14. More

"Kiss my black ass."
- Richard Prior

[aquart]

24. That Tom DeLay is a criminal.

And the Congress of the United States is abetting him.

[clydefrand]

30. I suggest that you send these to Tommy boy!

[Ms. Clio]

32. "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense

founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

[ucmike]

35. i heard a reference to that on a local radio station

in easton, pa. this weekend. the speakers were talking about the founding fathers and their writings that show they CLEARLY did not intend for this country to have religion mixed with government and some had outright disdain for the idea of a Christian based government under "god". they mentioned the language in the treaty you refered to.

it was a good discussion, but it was long over by the time i got back in the truck.

[Ms. Clio]

39. It's such a shame that most Americans have never heard/read these quotes

Here's a site with more excellent quotes about the Founding Fathers and religion:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/dispatch/fathers_quote2.htm

[jdj]

46. the cross as an engine of grief?

rock on, Adams.

Of course, fundies probably take that as a complement.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

7. i've got to hand it to DeLay

he certainly does know how to address the concerns of his backwoods pig-fucking constituency.

I wish my Representatives would be half as dedicated to an issue that i cared a quarter of as much about.

[BlueJazz]

10. "concerns of his backwoods pig-fucking constituency."

ROTFLMAO!! Funny!

[Tux]

16. WRONG

It's not always pigs. It could also be sheep, cows, or cousins. I live in a red state.

[renaissanceguy]

56. Yep, as long as those faggots can't marry

and as long as women have no rights over their own bodies...and as long as everyone's a rightwing fundie, everything's OK... who cares if there's no jobs, or healthcare, or peace....

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.14741193

[Gothmog]

8. Delay is an idiot

A powerful idiot but still just an idiot.

[Cha]

9. Oh, fuck him...

evil smelling roach exterminator.

[98geoduck]

12. Spoken like a true radical Muslim.

[donheld]

51. Yes, spoken like a true Ayatollah

Khomeni would be proud.

[LostInAnomie]

13. No separation of church and state, you say.

Good, now they will finally be able to make a laws officially recognizing the mighty Zeus as the United Sates one true god. Oh wait, I forgot only Christianity is to be recognized.

[Kinkistyle]

15. F*ck Zeus! Scientology is the new wave.

All the hottest stars (Tom Cruise, John Travolta etc...) are into Scientology. We need to establish a Scientologist Theocracy in this country NOW!

[Tux]

17. Screw that

I say we make Unitarian Universalism our official religion. All beliefs are valid and explored.

Then again a fundie UU would believe that a certain coffee brand is god/dess's favorite if god exists.

[Kinkistyle]

21. In a way, the Founding Fathers would approve of that.

UU philosophies falls very much in line with what Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Adams et al believed in. Basically a Deist world-view that believed in a Supreme Creator, but that granted Free Will upon his Creation and did not interfere in worldly matters - so no dogma was espoused aside from personal freedom and Golden Rule-esque common sense law.

[Solon]

18. Wouldn't Ares be more appropriate though?

He is God of War after all, and we seem to act more like the Spartans than the Athenians right now.

[me b zola]

52. Hey! That's my dog's name!

And he isn't a frikin' pug!

[ck4829]

19. When does DeLay go to jail?

[truthpusher]

23. Good Question. nt

[musette_sf]

27. I wanna see his sorry ass

in a jumpsuit and chains, on 288, picking up highway trash, with a big prison bull with a big gun keeping tabs on him and his fellow prizners.

[Laurab]

38. Soon I hope

I think they'll let him pray there, no problem. Lots of criminals study the bible in jail...

[AlCzervik]

20. That only applies to being a part of a christian religion of course

[PROGRESSIVE1]

22. "HEIL DELAYLER"!

:argh:

[applegrove]

25. Now that he is under investigation he needs support from the blind.

[easy_b]

26. Oh my god

:wtf:

[redqueen]

60. Hi Oh my god!

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

Sorry about the shock... you'll get used to it after a while if you keep coming to LBN. Doing so is necessary, IMO.

[stepnw1f]

28. Yuh.... F'You

Fanatics need not apply. You want Religion dictating our country? You warped little man. Stupid and evil.

[liberal N proud]

29. So we have one of the most powerful men in the Senate and he

failed his US Government class?
Send him back to grade school please.
There should be a test for all public officials that requires extensive knowledge of the Constitution.
And no one else in the Senate questions this?

[Anarcho-Socialist]

31. This is code for promoting evilgenital fundie-mentalism

or is it evangelical fundamentalism?

[JDPriestly]

33. The foundation of our government is

Government of the People, by the People, for the People. Not -- of God, by God, for God.

Nuff said.

[Rex]

34. Prepare! The Rapture Bus comes!

Joy!

[LynnTheDem]

36. YES!!! Let's have a THEOCRACY!!! Then Osama bin Laden will LOVE us!!!

Now aren't them rethugs so CLEVER! Making America into a fundamentalist extremist state means all them terraists will love us and never want to hurt us and we won't have any freedoms for them to hate us for!

[Mr_Spock]

37. Um, this is very dangerous - VERY DANGEROUS

HE better cut the crap now before it's too late.

[saigon68]

49. He's an Extremist right wing Nut-Case

Hiding behind the Corpse of Jayzeus.

[Fleshdancer]

41. FINE. LET'S TAX THE CHURCH!!!!!!!!!!

And while we're at it, let's hold them accountable to employment discrimination laws, benefit laws for employers, etc. For good measure, we should also staple copies of the Bill of Rights on the front door of every place of worship in the country.

Delay, you $#&@&! idiot. Separation of church and state protects BOTH from one another, not just the state my friend.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

63. Now there's a thought...

Many of the fundies wouldn't care about the Bill of Rights; but tax them and there'll be hell to pay!

[Zomby Woof]

42. No mention of "checks and balances" in it either

The ignorant right-wing politicos rely on these literalist falsifications and dismissals of the CONCEPTUAL framework of the document, either deliberataly to hold their constituents in thrall to idiocy, and therefore, their hot-button votes, or because they really ARE that dumb.

Whatever it takes to theocratize the nation in the name of jebus.

The word "implied" is important here.

[cosmicdot]

43. Traitor n/m

[The_Nick]

45. I'm out!

No, really, I am. It's too much at this point.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

47. Megalomaniacs without restraint

This is what Fuckface and his band of squatters in the White House have brought us - loser idiots like Tom DeFucker thinking their divine mission is to change the essence of what is the United States.

They want to go down in history as the men who changed America from a godless republic to a theocracy that quickly flew up its own ass.

Well, given that Jack Abramoff is now ratting out DeFucker, I suspect his days are numbered. Seriously.

But, you know, this is about as bad as I've ever seen it, and I lived through Watergate.

[PowerToThePeople]

50. Fine, put a Buhda in front of it too

Idiot...

[emad]

53. US battle over Ten Commandments

By Ian Pannell
BBC News, Washington



The Biblical display stands outside the Texas State Capitol
The US Supreme Court has been asked to decide whether the Ten Commandments can be displayed on public property.

The case goes to the very heart of the US Constitution and the battle between the secular and the religious in George W Bush's America.

It has taken three years to bring this to the attention of the highest court in the land.

And what makes it all the more remarkable is that it has been brought by one homeless man in Texas.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4310273.stm

[Bill McBlueState]

54. dammit

I am sick of being fodder for the European press. Being an American can be so embarrassing at times.

[Guckert]

55. i love how the GOP fights for the 10 commandments yet they only follow 1

Honor only one god before all others. the rest
Fuck em, he didn't mean it
the GOP
loves to kill
loves to steal
loves to commit adultery
Loves to lie
etc...

these guys are the biggest bunch of hypocrites on the planet.:puke:

[renaissanceguy]

58. "Do as I say, not as I do."

That's how they live their lives...pointing fingers, after their fingers have been up their asses the whole time.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.16187573

[Bill McBlueState]

57. no mention in the Constitution

An analogy I heard once was that, while the word "Trinity" doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible, the Bible suggests the concept of a Trinity, and now that's what most Christians believe.

Similarly, the words "separation of church and state" don't explicitly appear in the Constitution, but the document certainly suggests such a concept.

The analogy gets at the faulty premise that a document's full meaning can be derived from a literal reading of it, in a way even fundies might understand.

[Norquist Nemesis]

67. Hey, give DeLay a break for God's sake!! He's right!!!

It's not in the Constitution. It's in the Bill of Rights. :P

First Amendment.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html

[redqueen]

61. He's a criminal who belongs in jail.

Aside from the fact that he's completely wrong, I really don't care what this evil man says about religion, because he has no understanding of religion. If hell exists as he imagines it does, he'll be roasting in it for eternity.

[GOPBasher]

62. Theocracy... WoooHoooo!!!! nt

[tom_paine]

64. Yeah, the Church/State melding worked so well in the Dark Ages

Although, to a medeval mind like DeLay, he probably DOES believe that without a trace of irony.

The Dark Ages is where men like DeLay really 'shined' and those Bad Old Liberals really got what's coming to them, burning at the stake usually.

Though I have little doubt that in his secret bitter heart of hearts, DeLay likely believes that was too good for 'em.

[primavera]

65. I wonder how long it will be before Hillary joins him

She seems to be moving in that direction herself these days and is always on the look out for a chance to establish her wingnut credentials...

[yellowcanine]

66. Someone should point out to "Delay and Deceive" that Europe, which

has state supported churches - has the lowest church attendance and participation in the industrialized world while the U.S., which does not have state-supported churches, has the highest church attendance and participation in the industrialized world. Does he think that is a coincidence? If he wants us to be more like Europe, we should continue down his path.

[ourbluenation]

69. He's just towing the Talibush line

God is gunna hurl...

[ernstbass]

70. Founding fathers are turning in their graves