Fresh anti-German slur from Italian official

[Kellanved]

With his country’s leader still embroiled in controversy, the Italian under-secretary of State for Industry, Stefano Stefani has attacked the German people in another extraordinary outburst from a member of the Italian government.

In a letter addressed to his party members, the Lega Nord party member writes: "We know them, the German people. They always want to be the best in the class and inhabit our beaches in the summer, punch-drunk with arrogant self-confidence."
...
The German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, was planning to spend his holiday in Italy at the end of July according to reports (Photo: Danish EU Presidency)
...
http://www.euobserver.com/index.phtml?aid=11992

[JohnKleeb]

1. I am real sorry this has been happening

But Kel dont you find it kind of ironic that a self proclaimed fascist, Berluscolini compares Schroder's party members prison camp guards. He's proably the European leader I like the least and hate as much as Bush. Blair is ok by comparsion.

[DemExpat]

3. I now feel really good....as an ex-pat....

Bush and Berlusconi are my representatives....

:puke: :puke: :puke:

At least I know one is for only 6 months! :thumbsup:

DemEx

[Kellanved]

4. Blair is in another league

I respect - even like - Tony Blair. I don't understand, why he jeopardized his political career by waging an ill-prepared and IMHO illegal war.
However I despise Berlusconi and his complices.
This is going too far, it endangers the EU;
people demanding a shoot-to-kill order at the border are a disgrace to the EU.

[JohnKleeb]

6. I was ok with him

I never really liked him but I think hes not a Bush lackey exactly. Would a prefer someone more liberal from labour yeah but who do I choose Blair or some Conservative I choose Blair. Can you imagine how the media would had got on France if Chirac belonged to a liberal party.

[joshcryer]

9. Your post reminds me of something I saw on RMS's site.

Richard M. Stallman (the creator of GNU/GCC and large parts of Linux) said this on his site recently:

When MEP Martin Schmidt criticized Berlusconi, Berlusconi responded by saying Schmidt would be great for the movie part of a concentration camp commander.

This was interpreted as a terrible insult, and many officials pressed Berlusconi to apologize. He refused, then said something people took to be an apology. But now he says it was not an apology.

I think I understand why Berlusconi feels he does not need to apologize. It is because he did not mean the comparison with fascism as a criticism. In his mind, it was a compliment.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

2. Hypocrits/Forgetting their History

Mussolini, Remeber him??? The first Facist!!!
Italy has a lot of nerve to go after Germany when:
Italy has been taken over by right wing extremists and the people tolorate it!
and what does this say about the Italian people!
Also, Italy fought with the 3rd Reich!

[JohnKleeb]

7. Its real sad about Italy

Poor Pope John Paul II surrounded. Its real sad. But your holiness how about you do me a favor move the Vatacain to Dublin. Sorry just a Catholic rant I dont mind it being in Rome but put in a country who supports peace like Ireland. Dublin would be nice. Pope Sean I heh.

[renegade000]

16. hilter modelled himself after mussolini

until he started beating him at his own game...heh

[JohnKleeb]

17. yep

Also need I say Mussolini was in power longer too. Mussolini had been in power for a while when Hitler came to power. When Mussolini and Hilter aligned Mussolini thought of Hitler as the junior partner but soon with Hitler's expansionism Hitler gained.

[Darranar]

56. So did Germany...

In fact, Germany was the base for the Third Reich. I agree with your basic points, but you are going a tad bit overboard with our facts.

[phoebe]

5. I'm beginning to wonder if this is deliberate..

n/t

[fshrink]

32. My thoughts exactly. And that would make

sense. Extreme right-winger have always been utterly opposed to Europe. Nationalism and all. It's also much easier to control/own an isolated nation. The only reason the EU eventually happened was economic. It was the logic of profit. It is less true today, I think in large part due to the development of electronic exchanges.

[frylock]

8. you sure he isn't talking about 'zonies'?!

"They always want to be the best in the class and inhabit our beaches in the summer, punch-drunk with arrogant self-confidence"

The same thing happens every year here in San Diego!! ;-)

[MoonAndSun]

10. Hey, I'm a 'zonie and I resemble that remark!!

I love San Diego, but you are right frylock, a lot of my fellow Arizonan's go there and act as if they are in Rocky Point!!

[ze_dscherman]

11. Arrogant Germans

That's how many neighbouring countries see Germans. A stereotype that has some truth, but a stereotype. I never minded it when Italians told me so (about German tourists) - usually with a broad grin. In fact, both countries go along pretty well since a long time (and I admit, my first GF was an Italian).

The Danes call S&M sex "German", to many British, ve arr still "Krauts". And Norvegians say the German way to make Smorrebrod is "to occupy the kitchen".

But uttered from party leader of Lega del Norte such nonsense really annoys me. It's an idiocy uttered by an arrogant, self-confident a**hole drunk punch-drunk with racisms and prejudices. Lega del Norte wants separatism from middle/southern Italy (parasites in their opinion) and its leader just recently has proposed to shell refugee ships.

[JohnKleeb]

12. I thought they were Krauts to us Yanks

and Jerry to the Brits. Shrug
Are you actually German anyhow? BTW any German out there know any other Kleebs other than me. Am I right when I say it means glue I know it kinda does. I am only part German but I would love to come.

[Kellanved]

13. He is

Ze and some others (me included) hang out here - BonjourUSA, Paschall and several others represent the French part of Europe (or France, can't say).
Kleeb is close to "Kleber", what means "glue".
A look in the phonebook (www.telefonbuch.de) shows 60 Kleebs in Germany - many of those in Wuppertal.

Cool thing, that you want to visit Europe - drop me a line when the plan gets close to the realisation phase.
Being part German would be of interest, if you want to apply for citizenship (I don't believe your interest goes this far ;-) ). However it might be important to you, to visit your family's origins (funny thing is: I would have to go to the US to do so).


On Edit: I got called "Kraut" in the UK, so I guess the British have adopted the phrase.

[ze_dscherman]

14. Jerry/Kraut

You well could be right, but I remember being ridiculed as "Kraut" by English friends.

Kleeb in current German does not exist, but it is close to Kleber (glue), or kleben (to stick, be glued to).

The root could be "somthing sticky" - the English clay stems from the same root word.

Look at the etymology of clay:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=clay

Old German kliwa is the root for German Kleber (glue), Kleie (bran) and Klei (rare word for clay, loam) and Leim (glue).

There are some Kleeb in Germany, try this Google search: http://www.google.de/search?q=kleeb&hl=de&lr=&cr=countryDE&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&start=40&sa=N


And yes, I am German.

[JohnKleeb]

15. third German I've met here

so my last name means clay or glue or something like that. Heh.
Americans called Germans Jerry too and Brits Krauts but I commonly see Americans=Krauts, Brits=Jerry, and from what I hear Soviets=Fritzies or Fascists* just for WWII. I am sure Americans said Jerry and Brits Krauts but I think what I mentioned is the more common. I assume I am South German why do I assume this? I am Catholic number 1 and number 2 I am rumored to be Swiss-German.

[Dirk39]

18. I'm german too,

and isn't ze_dscherman an onomatopoeic for the_german?
There seem to be a lot of "Kleeb" in Switzerland, but in Germany too. Do a google search for "Kleeb", "Namen" (names), "deutsch" (german). You'll even find some email adresses of your relatives!

Funny thing that S/M is called german by the Danes, while we call S/M englisch (british). If Bush would know, what we call "french", he would have to relabel "sodomie" - don't the he repukes still us this term to describe oral sex? - into "freedom". Maybe this could stop them!
Greetings,
Dirk

[JohnKleeb]

19. so maybe I am swiss german

I dont know if any of my relatives are in the country still we've been here for a while. I know I have relatives in my mom's countries. What about Austria?

[TheBigGuy]

20. Whats up with these Italians?

Seems like they are in some sort of German-bashing mood latley?

[JohnKleeb]

21. Berlussoni is an asshole thats all I will say

Probably because our German friend Herr Schroder knows what kind of fuck Berlussoni is.

[Dirk39]

22. It's not the Italiens, it's Berlusconi...

seems that most of the Italiens just feel ashamed of Berlusconi.
It doesn't seem to work like Bushs France-bashing at all.
Dirk

[JohnKleeb]

23. yeah just like the misadmistration and the French

You guys are like the French to Berlussolni and his gang. BTW Bush must love freedom a lot he had a self described fascist in his coalition of the willing. What are the left parties in germany any how I know social democratic thats Schroder's party.

[Dirk39]

26. 'cause I'm pretty sure ze_dscherman will tell you something...

else, won't you:-), it's a desaster.
Some labour-unions are still somehow left, like VERDI. The social democrats have become a right-wing neoliberal party. The greens are even more neo-liberal.
The PDS (party of democratic socialism) is very prominent, esp. in east-germany. They are somehow the successors of the SED, the communist-party in the DDR before the reunification. Although some of their members are o.k. for me, if you want to be pessimistic - I admit this - you could say they mix the worst of former Eastgermany with the worst of Westgermany.
Schroeders SPD is a lot like the Labour-Party in GB under the leadership of Blair, maybe a bit like the DLC, while the green party is like the SPD minus the working class. It has become a "springboard" for middle-class careerists.
My impression is that the remaining left rather works for NGOs like "Attac". Partys no longer count. But I'm a kind of antileninist left and other germans will give you a different perspective.
Hi from Germany,
Dirk

[JohnKleeb]

27. man this kinda of stuff is happening here

its happening everywhere
UK- labour
US- democrats
Germany- social democrats
I hope Canada's liberal party doesnt move right. So you are like me a left winger all the way? am I hearing you right Dirk? What part of Germany are you in? By the way just curious but what did your ancestors think of Hitler by the way I can forgive kinda.

[Dirk39]

34. I am, at least I hope to be one....

I'm living in Hamburg, where my father was born. And I grew up in a small town near Hamburg.
My ancestors?
My mother comes from East Prussian, that is Poland now. Her father was a social democrat, who made it to reject becoming a soldier in WWII (to not become a soldier in WWII, it was sufficient to drink 3 liters of coffee). His mother was a polish jew like the mother of his wife, but they managed somehow to manipulate papers or let them disappear.
My Grandfather was sitting in the parliament of a small village as a socialdemocrat before the Nazis took over and had connections. But they weren't any kind of heroes at all. And in a way, the antisemitist propaganda of the Nazis really worked on them. They were rather simple people. I'm 39 years old, and when I was about 8 or 9, I remember how my brother and I started to laugh, when my grandpa was seeing "the jews" at work, commenting the news.
My fathers parents: his mother was a fine woman. She had a shoe-store here in Hamburg, and she was hiding jews from the Nazis and she took a store from her jewish friends, like a lot of Germans did, but she really gave it back to them after the war, unlike many other germans. Her husband was a Nazi-pig. I still don't know, what he really did. He was a soldier in both wars and still proud of it till he died in 1981. I never liked him and I never really talked to him. In a way I'm still annoyed with myself that I never tried to find out, what he really did as a soldier. In a way, I have done what a lot of "left" germans did: to rather start a fight with the police than to ask your own grandpa serious questions. I was about 17 when he died and I never could connect to him in any way. I just hated it, when we had to visit him or he came to our house.
That's part of the story.
Hello!
Dirk

[fshrink]

50. There were about as few active resistants

in Germany than there were in France. The best 1% as usual... Willi Brandt was one of them. You mention Attac, and I think that Americans could profit from what it is (even though it's far from perfect). Could you post about it?

[Kellanved]

52. Attac is the only global anti-globalization movement

They're highly active, but don't riot etc..
Most left/Green Parties are trying to take them over - no success so far ;-).
http://www.attac.org

[fshrink]

55. Yes. It's a "civil society" association, like

a hunter club for example. They function following direct-democracy principle (e.g. power belongs to general assembly, delegates are revocable). They focused on very well delineated and concrete issues (e.g. transparency/taxability of corp. international dividends). One at the time. In alliance with US progressive lawyers groups, for example, it could have a powerful effect here.

[Kellanved]

28. The German Parties (those represented in the lower house)

From left to right

PDS : (Party of democratic socialism) The Post-Communists; the follow-up Party of the GDR's SED (their actual direction is up to discussion; they're very right in some fields and regions )
SPD: (Social Democratic Party of Germany) : The oldest (only pre-war) party in Germany. Today it has a center-left Agenda (although some people argue, that it has drifted too far right - IMHO those people don't know, what they're talking about.)

Greens; they have a free Democratic Agenda with Green issues thrown in.
FDP: (Free Democratic Party; AKA :liberal Party): A party founded by Nazis, but it found the right way. Spawned some of Germany's finest Statesmen in the 80s. Degraded to a mere franchise of the conservative Party in the 90s).

CDU/CSU : (Edit: Christian Democratic Union/ Christian Social Union (the CSU is actually more nationalistic)) the conservative Parties; (CSU in Bavaria, CDU in the other states). They're the same internationally.



Parties not represented in the Parliament include the NPD (neo-nazis)and the Schill-Party ("law and order" with a lawless chairman).

[JohnKleeb]

30. PDS sounds like it could be for me

Whats CDU like/

[Kellanved]

33. You're asking a difficult question

I personally don't like the PDS - I'm living in east-Berlin and most PDS-politicians here are more conservative than left. The Party is almost non-existant in western Germany. However sometimes they have the positon, that just "feels proper"

The CDU is a lot like your Republicians (they even accept their party membership) - I'm a little tired, but they're a corrupt lying bunch.
For example: The Gouvernment just cut the taxes to boost the economy (something the CDU demanded since the last Elections; personally I'm against it); all of a sudden they're against cutting the taxes.
Their (arguably correct) argument is, that that would raise the national debt.
However:
The CDU reigned states are stacking up debts like there is no tomorrow - not one word about it.
Those state debts are the reason, that Germany missed the 3% EU debt-limit.

Besides: the last Social-Democratic Chancellor left a debt in the Billions; Schroeder inherited one in the Trillions.

[JohnKleeb]

35. I read an editoral by their head Angela something

She seemed like a republican too and a damned hawk.I dont honestly who'd be good for me. Who's fault is it for those debts. How is Berlin? Its a city I wanna go to.

[Kellanved]

36. Berlin is huge

About as big as NYC (not as dense though).
It is governed by a SPD/PDS coalition - the Mayor, Klaus Wowereit is the first openly gay German Governor.
However: unemployment is high and long years of abuse (all parties involved) left the treasury empty. The boom of the late 90s boom has weakended. Nethertheless it's the most interesting and alive German city.

The debts were a the price of the reunification - a job handled poorly by Kohl (and seemingly he was corrupt, adding to the problem).
As history went, nobody is really to blame for them - they are there, as is the reunification.

Kohl is to be blamed for the debt racked up in his first two terms. He promised to lower the debt, but raised it in all of his four terms.

[JohnKleeb]

38. what party was Kohl?

.

[Dirk39]

39. CDU, CDU...

he was as stupid as Bush, o.k. he could read. But in a way, 'cause he had some connections to the catholic labour-movement, compared to Schroeder and the Greens, he was rather defending the welfare-state. But I wouldn't want to choose between Kohl and Schroeder...
Dirk

[JohnKleeb]

40. whats the catholic labour movement all about

pro labor people? I thought a conservative party would oppose labor.

[Dirk39]

41. Hard issue...

It's the "katholische Soziallehre" (catholic social-teachings)

1891, the first socialenzyklika "Rerum novarum" under the Pontifikat of the so called "Arbeiterpapst" (the workers pope) Leo XIII was published.
This is the historical source. Esp. in the west of Germany, in citis like cologne, it still has roots.
Dirk

[JohnKleeb]

42. what is it?

Is it a good thing or a bad thing? I am Catholic myself but I cant handle right wing Catholics much like I am with fundies.

[Dirk39]

37. Their mayor from the SPD was wearing a T-Shirt...

on St.-Christophers' street day like this:
Front: I'm gay
Back: and Berlin is bancrupt...

Before he was elected, he stated during a meeting: I'm gay, and it's good to be gay!

Tells you, how liberal Germany has become in a way. But the back of his T-Shirt...

Dirk

[ze_dscherman]

45. PDS party

To many people in eastern Germany PDS is the party that presents their regional interest best - and they suffer a lot of economic/social problems. Others just despise them as being to much under the influence of people from the former ruling SED party. And anyhow, they suffer a crisis of leadership right now.

In the western part of Germany PDS is pretty much unimportant. Since they are staunchly anti-war, I met several of them in our local peace network, and found them much more agreable than many other small-group-leftists. And very dedicated to social change as well. This may be anecdotal, due to people I met.

I wish they (or another left party, but there is none of any importance) had more political influence - if only as a balance to the social democrat party that seems to have forgotten its working class origins. The Green party has very much lost its left wing.

To me it looks like Germany may face a big coalition (social democrat SPD and christian democrat CDU) soon. Otherwise, both groups (with their respective coalition partners) will block each other.

[JohnKleeb]

46. well who would the working man belong to

not that I am one but my ancestors were.

[Kellanved]

49. Depends

Pre War: SPD or KPD (communists). Close to the war there is a uglier possibility.

Post War: The Parties got "Americanized"; the two major parties are very close together on most issues. The SPD has a far bigger party-base and is a litttle less likely to go against the basic worker.

The PDS is largely a regional party for eastern-Germany. They have some nice Ideas, but those have little to none contact with reality .

Some Links for you:
(AFAIK the PDS has no English Homepage) www.sozialisten.de

http://www.spd.de/servlet/PB/menu/1010237/index.html

(AFAIK the Greens have no English Homepage) http://www.gruene-partei.de/

(AFAIK the FDP has no English Homepage) www.fdp.de

http://www.cdu.de/englisch/englischpage.htm
http://www.csu.de/home/Display/Fremdsprachen/englisch

EDIT: added links, changed some words

[ze_dscherman]

51. Hard to answer

Because none of the parties really represent them any more - society has changed, and so have parties. But traditionally it was the Social Democrat Party representing the workers.

[redwitch]

24. hubby and me are going to see Juventas

kick ACMilan's butt in August @ Giants Stadium. Hubby tells me ACMilan is owned by Berlusconi, so we are cheering on the Juventas team.

[JohnKleeb]

25. soccer? I assume

anyways I'd say Berlusconi is an Italian Murdoch who has political power so does Rupert but hes not a pm or president like Berlusconi.

[Kellanved]

29. You assume correctly. (n/t)

[JohnKleeb]

31. thought so

.

[no_hypocrisy]

43. You hit the nail on the head. And it isn't extemporaneous or random.

Germany is attacked by name-calling by another European country with whom it has no recent controversy TWICE within a week. I see the * administration egging Italy on in order to keep tweaking Germany for not getting with the war program.

This is SO Jr. High bathroom behavior.

[ThomasJefferson]

44. LOL

Italy is a joke of democratie, they criticed Le Pen while presidential election, but italian Gov is full of facists, they sold a aerospace industry to Carlyle group laster, But the most ridiculous is that all ex nazis fascist while WWII in europe joined the Bush emperialist advanture!!

look well, Spain "franco", Italy, Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia, Denamark, etc...

what a shame for Blair.

[JohnKleeb]

47. Berlusconi actually had Mussolini's granddaughter in attendence

at a event or something like that and hes talking about Schroder being a nazi look at your self Silvio. Thats like Bush shaking hands with McCarthy's kid or something or John Birch society founder and I think the latter happened.

[ze_dscherman]

48. Not the Danes

They joined the Coalition of the Billing, but they were not Nazis during WWII. Denmark was occupied by the Germans.

[JohnKleeb]

53. in one day in fact

[PROGRESSIVE1]

54. What does this say about the Italian people as a whole?

They voted for his hard right wing government and personally like him.

[Darranar]

57. Very little...

Many people in the US voted for Bush, a hard-right president. Many personally like him.