Verdict: Paul Shanley GUILTY - BREAKING

[matcom]

:bounce:

child rape, assault, battery - looks like ALL counts so far. still being read.

fucker.

on edit link:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=718&e=1&u=/ap/20050207/ap_on_re_us/church_abuse_shanley

thanks maddezmom

[indigobusiness]

1. Huh?

Is this a party?

Who?

edit- oh yeah...nevermind...had a braincramp.

Woohoo!

[Heddi]

2. Good for him

I watched (listened in the background) of one day of testimony on Court TV where one of the victims was recounting what happened to him in the confessional booth, and the camera cut to Shanley as this poor boy (man) is just sobbing and that motherfucker sat there and ROLLED HIS FUCKING EYES.

Man of God? Surely no god that *I* pray to.

[AlCzervik]

3. yup, guilty on all counts

jury going back now to deliberate on sentencing.

[Bluebear]

4. Gee whatever happened to Cardinal Bernard Law?

[blueknight]

5. i hope they put him in prison

until he dies. and someone rapes him with a broom handle daily

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. Are you kidding

he would enjoy that too much.

Sick fucker.

[MADem]

7. Do let me enlighten you

That miserable bastard, Cardinal "ABOVE THE" Law, took his Vatican passport (it being a separate nation, ya see, with a seat at the UN), packed his bags full of his plus-size clerical robes and cute little red beanies and stoles, and lumbered onto a plane headed for Rome.

Once there, he reported to the Vatican, and was installed as pastor of the Maria Maggiore church, one of the loveliest churches in the world, a popular destination for tourists and those of faith. This appointment is usually a REWARD for a hard working cardinal or bishop who has done good works all his life, and who deserves a bit of time in the sun at the end of his useful career.

But, one might ask, how is that miserable asshole being punished for his part in being an accessory to these many crimes against children? Well, I'm sure that as I type this, he's probably enjoying a grappa after a seven course meal at Umberto's or one of the other many delightful trattorias in the neighborhood. He sleeps on fine linen, has an easy, damn near negligable, workday, and gets to enjoy the many delights of Rome and environs. Gee, I'd love to be "punished" in that fashion!

I want that son of a bitch in sackcloth and ashes, being whipped mercilessly by those he harmed.

In short, HE GOT AWAY CLEAN. It's DISGRACEFUL.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

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[purduejake]

33. This is just one reason why...

the Catholic church needs to keep its trap shut instead of acting like such a moral authority.

[AngryOldDem]

74. No, the Church needs to clean its own house

As a Catholic I refuse anymore to associate the Church itself with those who mock and tarnish its image. People like Law and the rest of the hierarchs who covered up for these sick men need to go, directly to jail if applicable.

These men in no way reflect on Church teaching and Catholics as a whole. I assure you that we are just as sickened and disgusted by this scandal as the rest of society, and I wish the hierarchs would realize what they have done to the institution and its members. this This BY NO MEANS diminishes the pain and suffering of the real victims in this. I know several, and they are scarred for life and are trying hard to get their lives back.

If there is any way to extradite Law back to the States to answer for his sins of commission and omission, I am all for it. But at this point, I don't think there is.

One final point: Most state laws put a statute of limitations on when sex crimes need to be reported to be prosecuted. Often, they come too late to help victims of crimes such as this. I cannot stress enough that laws need to be changed to lengthen the statute of limitations so that these men do NOT get away with what they have done. Personally, I think sex crimes should be treated the same as murder -- NO statute of limitations.

[purduejake]

104. I agree with you, except...

I think it needs to clean house and keep it's mouth shut in many situations such as taking anti-gay positions and using communion for political agendas.

[MountainLaurel]

9. Hiding out at the Vatican?

Seriously, that bastard needs to be put away faster than you can say John Gotti and conspiracy to commit rape.

[One_Life_To_Give]

11. The Cardinal got a position

at the Vatican.

[MADem]

18. Here's a picture of his workcenter; the Maria Maggiore

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Europe/Italy/Lazio/Roma/Rome/churches/S.Maria_Maggiore/home.html

[flyingfysh]

13. Law went to Rome

Law resigned as Cardinal, and is now working in Rome at the Vatican.

[MaineDem]

19. He was sent to the Vatican to keep him quiet...or safe

I consider him the biggest criminal in all this!

[Bluebear]

20. I do too

The question was rhetorical but your point is true. Law is complicit in ALL these cases. And is rewarded by being sheltered.

[shrike]

21. Are we talking about Bernard Law of Chicago?

That Bernard Law is dead and in the ground. Died a few years ago. Was accused of molestation by one individual who later recanted.

[MaineDem]

22. No, the Cardinal from the Archdiocese of Boston

Very much alive...or so we're told.

[shrike]

24. Okay. I probably have my cardinals confused. n/t

[luckypunch]

68. No...Cardinal Bernard Law of Boston

The one who is very much alive and very guilty.

[AngryOldDem]

75. You are thinking of Cardinal Bernardin

A good man whose memory should not be tarnished by the deeds of this current hierarchy, who by the way, often treated him very, very poorly.

[maddezmom]

8. matcom, here is the link pls add to your OP

Shanley Convicted of Child Rape in Mass.

1 minute ago U.S. National - AP


By DENISE LAVOIE, Associated Press Writer

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. - Defrocked priest Paul Shanley, the most notorious figure in the sex scandal that rocked the Boston Archdiocese, was convicted Monday of raping and fondling a boy at his church during the 1980s.


The conviction on all four charges gives prosecutors a high-profile victory in their effort to bring pedophile priests to justice for decades of abuse at Roman Catholic parishes around the country.


The victim, now 27, put his head down as the verdicts were announced after a trial that turned on the reliability of what he claimed were recovered memories of the long-ago abuse. Shanley showed no emotion as he stood next to his attorneys.


The accuser broke down on the stand as he testified in graphic detail that Shanley pulled him out of Sunday morning catechism classes and raped and groped him in the church bathroom, the rectory, the confessional and the pews starting when he was 6.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=718&e=1&u=/ap/20050207/ap_on_re_us/church_abuse_shanley

[CoffeeCat]

10. I'm a survivor and I cried when I heard the verdict...

Thank God. Literally. Thank God for this verdict.

This guilty verdict sends a message to pedophiles: You will be held accountable. More importantly, it sends a message to survivors of sexual abuse: It was not your fault; and we believe you.

This was a case in which the victim's repressed memories were used as a weapon against him. Elizabeth Loftus, the famed psychologist and marketeer of the unscientific notion "all repressed memories are invalid" -- was a key witness for Father Shanley.

Loftus is articulate and she's persuasive. However, she's a slap in the face to survivors of sexual abuse; and especially those victims of childhood sexual abuse who repressed some or all of their traumatic memories.

I repressed my memories of sexual abuse. I've been in therapy for the last three years unraveling this awful stuff. However, I am moving forward and learning to appreciate that the child in me who forgot was very resourceful and was only trying to survive. Some of my repressed memories were validated by someone who was witness to what happened to me. Repressed memories do happen!

So, frankly, it enrages me when a noted scientist stands up on a witness stand, and further victimizes a survivor of sexual abuse by saying, "Repressed memories of sexual abuse don't ever happen."

They do happen!! We forgot to survive. Deal with it!!!

This is a day of victory for survivors and especially for those of us who coped by forgetting until we were strong enough to remember!

[mzmolly]

14. So sorry for your experience Sparkles.

:hug:

Wanted to clarify the so called defense:

The defense called just one witness — a psychologist who said that so-called recovered memories can be false, even if the accuser ardently believes they are true. A lawyer for Shanley argued that the accuser was either mistaken or concocted the story with the help of personal injury lawyers to cash in on a multimillion-dollar settlement resulting from the sex scandal.

I believe repressed memories "can be" false as well, but they can also be "QUITE TRUE" ... thus the statute of limitations should NOT apply in cases of child sexual abuse.

This matter is very sickening. I hope this guy is one of many who are prosecuted for such horrible crimes against children.

[mahina]

15. hugs and healing

:hug:

[amazona]

16. oh lord I hope they had better evidence than this

I am sorry for your suffering, but I've had too many good friends whose families and lives were torn apart by a therapist creating memories. The horrible memories of abuse turned out to be completely invented by this therapist. When a group of victims got together, they were shocked to discover that everyone who went to this therapist ended up with Multiple Personality Disorder. Either it was a heck of a coincidence, or the therapist was creating these memories.

No one in the Holocaust forgot that they were tortured and abused.

No one in Vietnam forgot the horrors they experienced.

And in my own small way I sure didn't ever forget the abuse I experienced.

You know, much as most people try to forget horrible things, they absolutely can't. That's where post-traumatic stress disorder comes from. If we could just block bad things and move on, it might be a better world, but there is no factual basis for assuming that we "forget" until we are somehow "strong enough" to face what happened.

I don't see how someone can come back years later and with no more evidence than "my therapist hypnotized me and brought back these memories" can then go forward and put a man in prison.

Many people under hypnosis recover horrible, traumatic memories of being raped and abducted by the aliens on UFOs. One of my friends had "recovered" memories of her own mother using her in Satanic ceremonies. The mother was put through hell before the friend finally found her way to reality and realized it had never happened. I think we're going to have to concede that the Space Brothers and the Satanist cults are not actually out there even bothering to exist, much less molest people.

My concern is that anyone can be accused of anything if "recovered" memories are considered valid evidence. Didn't we learn anything from the 80s?

OK, it seems a bit mean to debate this with a survivor, so I'll shut up now and let you have the last word. But injustice worries me. I've seen the harm "recovered memories" can do.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[mzmolly]

17. Your post is offensive.

Certainly some people "recall" things that never occurred, but for others, repressed memories of abuse are very real.

As a person who has experienced this first hand (the recovery of an abusive episode outside of a therapists office) I take issue with what you said.

Here is some "science" that refutes your claim that repressed memories don't occur:

Jan 11 2004

Research reveals for the first time the biological mechanism that the brain uses to block unwanted memories. The study, published in the journal Science, demonstrates how unpleasant memories can be repressed.

Psychology Professor John Gabrieli, a co-author of the study, is quoted in a Stanford University press release as stating "The big news is that we've shown how the human brain blocks an unwanted memory, that there is such a mechanism and it has a biological basis. It gets you past the possibility that there's nothing in the brain that would suppress a memory – that it was all a misunderstood fiction."

Read on:

http://mentalhealth.about.com/cs/abuse/a/reprmem104.htm

Additionally, Holocost survivors and soldiers and victims of torture and others HAVE experienced this protective mechanism:


1. Does amnesia exist for traumas other than child abuse?

... amnesia in response to extreme emotional arousal has been documented as far back as 1904, when Janet reported amnesia in response to bereavement. Amnesia has also been reported in combat, for crimes, and for concentration camp experiences and torture.

http://mentalhealth.about.com/cs/abuse/a/cooroborate.htm

Also, PTSD can occur even if you've supressed a memory. Thus the nightmares where memories come flooding back.

[Flying Coyote]

27. Deep breath everyone...

Mzmolly: I don't think the poster meant to say that repressed memories never happen, but we do know that a great many people were put through the legal wringer, even sent to jail, because of false "recovered memories" during the satanic cult craze in the 80s. It is very, very easy to lead a child into agreeing with whatever outrageous story you want them to...anyone with a child knows this.

It was a total witchhunt, caused by a few Christian fundamentalist "therapists" who insisted there is a worldwide satanic conspiracy which kidnaps large numbers of children and does all sort of horrid things to them.

No real evidence ever surfaced to support these accusations, and charges were eventually dropped in most cases, but once you have your name splashed across the local papers as "satanic cult member", or spend some time in jail getting raped, it's a little late for "oopsie".

http://www.richardwebster.net/speakofthedevil.html
http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/sat07.htm
http://www.locksley.com/6696/ritukill.htm

[mzmolly]

32. The post did assert several falsehoods insinuating that repressed

memories are indeed untrue.

There is a school of black/white thinking on this and it's a shame.

I agree that false accusations and crack pot therapists have given this LEGIT issue a bad taste, but claims of repressed memory should NOT be dismissed out of hand.

Let me remind you that I replied to the following claims:

1. Holocost survivors never experienced such a thing as repressed memory.

2. PTSD exists because we don't supress memories of events, and gosh golly gee if we could, we certainly would etc..

This doesn't sound like an open minded position to me. In fact it's down right false.

As I said, I totally agree that there are some "questionable" stories of so called repressed memory, and such claims should be treated with caution ALWAYS. But, I think the post in question was insulting and greatly misinformed and deserved a response.

Thanks, I am taking deep breaths :hi:

[zalinda]

46. I know that repressed memories exist

because I probably have them. I did some things in my childhood that were sexual (but I didn't know that at the time) and that I shouldn't have known about or even thought about. I even think I know who did whatever to me. Do I want to know for sure........nope! I've lived all these years quite successfully without dredging up that mess, besides the guy was banished from the family just after I was 6. I think it's more the feeling of helplessness than the sex. And, I've never felt helpless in my life. Maybe that's why I'm not married any more. LOL

zalinda

[CoffeeCat]

67. The same thing happened to me...

I applaud you for being so strong, and for acknowledging that something may have happened to you. I don't think remembering the abuse--or every details is a prerequisite to healing.

I didn't go looking for repressed memories--they came for me like a locomotive.

My memories first came out as visual flashbacks and as intense feelings--helplessness, terror, fear, confusion, rage. I didn't know what in the heck was happening to me.

I also acted out sexually as a child. At age 6, I was instructing other children about sex, sexual positions and other sexual details that no child should ever know. I was also using sexual language and vulgar language. I had no idea where I might have learned these things.

The sexual acting out was a repressed memory. I called the children to ask if these memories were true. They validated these memories. These children also gave me greater clarity on my memories (which were only a couple seconds of flashbacks at that point) with additional details.

I was moving along at warp speed in my happy life--before I began to recall traumatic memories of abuse. My husband and I just had a baby and I was over the moon. I had no incentive to want these memories. I guess, sometimes, the mind gets tired of holding onto so much. After a couple of nightmarish memories were recalled, I felt as if someone had removed an ax from my back. I remember thinking to myself, "So this is how most people feel..." I felt relaxed--like an electric fence of tension and energy had been extinguished.

I hope it's ok that I shared some of my stuff. It sounds like you're in a good place and that you have everything in good perspective. Not all of us heal in the same way, and I'm always happy to hear a good success story.

My best to you Zalinda! :)

[mzmolly]

101. Welcome to DU Zalinda.

I am so sorry for your experience.

[msmcghee]

29. There's a big difference between . .

. . recalling things that did happen in the distant past and imagining things that didn't happen. The poster's comments are on the mark.

We have a huge irrational blind spot in our culture about anything involving children and sex. The records are full of dozens of people convicted to lengthy terms in prison for crimes that were entirely fabricated by children - as recalled memories. Virtually all of those were dismissed after their lives and reputations and several years of their lives were taken away.

A man will now be sentenced probably to life in prison based on nothing more than recalled memories. Our society believes since the recalled memories were sexual in nature and involved children - they therefore must be true. Or perhaps, even if they weren't it will send a strong message to anyone thinking about it.

Repressed memories trials are no different than witchcraft trials in Salem in the 1600's. They are both based on hysteria.

We are still just as sick a society as we were then.

[mzmolly]

35. The posters comments are NOT on the mark. Read my reply

and find out why.

[hollywood926]

80. Try to imagine how hurtful your comments could be to

someone who has actually experienced this. Most people recover these memories without the help of therapists and the memories are very real.

[msmcghee]

38. A study that suggests that . .

. . there is a mechanism that can cause memories to be repressed in no way shows that these "suppressed memories" were true.

OTOH repressed memories have been repeatedly shown to be false. That in itself provides a sufficient level of reasonable doubt that this person should not have been convicted.

The conviction was due to hysteria - and the real fear of those on the jury that they would be despised by society, their family and friends for "letting a child rapist off the hook".

[mzmolly]

56. You would like to dismiss all repressed memories from entering into

evidence based upon the fact that SOME Of them are false.

As I said, SOME people lie, you can't dismiss EVERY case because SOME are flawed.

This conviction was due to the fact that a priest molested several boys and he got his just due.

[shrike]

23. There was an excellent article in Discover magazine about this

About how otherwise intelligent and sane people "remember" things that didn't happen.

The author used space alien stories and also referred to the daycare "abuse" scandals of a few decades back. He touched very briefly on scandals in the Catholic Church, but since there is no evidence that any of them involve false memories there was no further discussion.

Article's not on-line to my knowledge.

[mzmolly]

25. That doesn't mean that legit repression of memory does not occur.

See my post above.

[shrike]

28. Sure. But the article gives reasons grounded in science as to why

it can. And does, upon occasion.

[mzmolly]

36. The articles I posted give sound scientific reasons as to why repressed

memory can and does happen on occassion as well.

[shrike]

39. I didn't say it could never happen

The original poster said the same.

[mzmolly]

42. Oh really?

No one in the Holocaust forgot that they were tortured and abused.

No one in Vietnam forgot the horrors they experienced.

And in my own small way I sure didn't ever forget the abuse I experienced.

You know, much as most people try to forget horrible things, they absolutely can't. That's where post-traumatic stress disorder comes from. If we could just block bad things and move on, it might be a better world, but there is no factual basis for assuming that we "forget" until we are somehow "strong enough" to face what happened.

Are you saying that these statements are not dismissive of the subject of repressed memory? Seems to me like these statements are not only false, but are also saying that RM is bullshit all around.

[Richard Steele]

51. Of course it does.

Witch hunts occur as well.

I have been informed that my father was very abusive when I was small (physically, not sexually) and that I was seven or so before my mom 'put her foot down' and stopped the beatings.

I have NO memory of this. I can remember ALOT of things, some of my memories have been confirmed as happening at the age of 18 months...but I only remember one single spanking.
So obviously, memory repression is a real phenomena.

And, I want to point out: the "Child-Care Abuse" scandals were _NOT_ about repressed memories!
They were created by BIASED "counsellors" manipulating children with bullying tactics and leading questions.

In the infamous McMartin case, the people who questioned the kids ADMITTED that they ASSUMED the kids had been molested, and they believed it was their job to make the kids admit it by any means necessary.

YES, people can repress unpleasant memories.
And yes, some "experts" on the subject are frauds and quacks.

And we, as a society, need to put down all of our 'broad brushes' and pick up some fine-toothed combs!

[mzmolly]

53. Sorry, but you and I agree.

:hi:

[Richard Steele]

65. That's a confusing post...why the "sorry"?

I'm happy that you agree, since you seem intelligent and well-spoken.

I'm concerned with the VICTIMS on both ends of this issue...child molestation happens ALOT more often than people are comfortable with admitting.
And molested children feel lost, alone...because no one is "comfortable" with hearing their testimony.

At the same time, FALSE molestation charges have reached epidemic levels; the last time I checked the stats, 45% of all 'child custody' cases involved allegations of sexual abuse.

I'm sorry, but I find it kinda hard to believe that HALF of all fathers who divorce are child molesters!

If that many dads were REALLY molesting their kids, it would be considered NORMAL already!

I just think we need ALOT more common sense applied at BOTH ends of this ugly, disgusting issue.

And, P.S.: In the case of this now-convicted priest, Repressed Memories were NOT the only evidence in the case.

Consider the fact that he NEVER DENIED THE CHARGES! His entire defense was ONE "expert" who said that RMs 'can be false'....

I say, FRY that sick sunuvabitch!

[mzmolly]

66. I assumed that you disagreed with what I was saying.

:hi:

As for the divorce stats, perhaps the fact that these men had issues led to divorce? Who knows.

I do agree that each case is to be decided individually as should every other case in our criminal justice system.

[Richard Steele]

73. Nah, I agreed with you BIG TIME!

You sound like one of those people who are educated _AND_ have common sense; I have heard rumors of such folk existing on the internets....

[mzmolly]

81. Thanks

Not educated in the formal sense, though I have common sense most days. ;)

[sybylla]

30. I've seen both sides, amazona

I've seen what a pack of "supressed" lies does to a family. I've seen what horrible sexual, physical and emotional abuse can do to a child. I'm working with someone now who wants to put their story of abuse, suppression and recollection in print. There is plenty of evidence to support her claims.

It can happen. It does happen. The problem is being able to discern the difference. I agree that it would have been nice had there been more evidence. But in a trial of sex crimes, we rarely have anything more substancial to go on than the word of one person against another. Somehow, we have to make that work because that's all we have. Unfortunately, the corroborating witnesses in this case would have been six years old at the time and wouldn't likely recall 19-year-old memories of this young man being taken aside. The system has to work with what it has and we have to hope that justice has been served.

[Lars39]

34. The abuse started when he was 6, and continued for 6 yrs.

[msmcghee]

37. Justice is served when people are convicted based on . .

. . evidence that is true beyond a reasonable doubt. That means if there is a reasonable doubt the person is innocent.

Recall of repressed memories is way over the line of the reasonable doubt test.

Unless there is a way to prove that all repressed memories of this type are true - despite the many repressed memory tales that have been proven factually not to be true - or are patently impossible - like the many people who ardently believe they were taken up into alien spaceships to have their genitals probed and examined - then repressed memories are beyond the limit as evidence to accuse people of vicious crimes.

[mzmolly]

41. Why do ALL such memories have to be true in order for SOME to have

legal merit?

Some people falsely accuse others of rape, does that mean we should dismiss every such claim without DNA evidence to support it?

Every case should be decided individually as it is today.

[msmcghee]

44. If the prosecution bases their case on . .

. . a repressed memory and nothing else then they are depending on the jury's fear of social recriminations.

Repressed memories are notoriously unreliable. Even if some are true - there is no way to tell the true ones from the false ones - that raises a huge level of reasonable doubt.

Repressed memories should never be the only evidence used to convict someone of any crime IMO.

[mzmolly]

49. I would never suggest that any case be based totally on a memory

repressed or otherwise. Each situation should be weighed individually.

Often times it's one persons word against another when it comes to sexual assault however, and in cases such as these it's no different.

[msmcghee]

54. I agree with you that . .

. . in sexual assault cases it is very difficult to get a conviction because it often comes down to he said / she said.

That's a bummer. But that doesn't mean we should do away with the concept of reasonable doubt that our criminal justice system is based on.

Some bad people will probably go free. That happens all the time. That's the way our system is set up to operate. Better that some guilty go free than an innocenmt person spends time in prison IMO. It's a human system and will never be perfect - since we know it is not perfect I'd rather have biased in this direction - especially if I was the criminal in some person's repressed ememory.

[mzmolly]

59. I don't think it's reasonable to assume this man is innocent.

And, I don't base that decision upon ONE persons repressed memory.

[msmcghee]

61. But of you were in the jury that's exactly . .

. . what you would have had to do - what you should have done if you followed the judge's orders.

[mzmolly]

63. Bull crap as a member of the jury I'd be asked to consider ALL of the

evidence and decide whether or not it was "reasonable" to assume his innocence after such time.

[girl gone mad]

45. At the very least, there should be..

solid evidence introduced to back up any claims resulting from resurfaced memories.

Too many people have been convicted of crimes that were never committed based on the repressed memory mass histeria that took place in the 80s.

Repressed memories are simply not enough to base a conviction on.

[mzmolly]

47. Who said they were enough to BASE a conviction on?

I said every situation should be looked at INDIVIDUALLY.

[msmcghee]

50. In this case this was the only evidence. n/t

[mzmolly]

55. Read the article and do some research, it was NOT the only evidence.

eom.

[Richard Steele]

69. Indeed, it was NOT the only evidence!

It is the ONLY evidence the SCLM is playing up, but that's not the same thing at all.

The sick bastard _NEVER_ even denied the charges, unless you count his 'not guilty' plea....

He has never EVER stood up under oath and said "that didn't happen"...never not once!

[sybylla]

105. Then we'd never get sex crimes convictions

The word of one person against another should not convince anyone beyond a reasonable doubt.

And yet, even in date rape cases with little to no corroborating evidence there are convictions quite regularly.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm not there to hear the evidence or take testimony. The judicial system is not perfect but it's the best we have. I will not sit here and second guess every verdict I don't like.

Because repressed memories can be faked doesn't mean they all are faked and should never be considered in a court of law. And if you weren't there, you don't know that it was all that was presented, that there was no corroboration of any kind. If you're trusting the media to give you the whole story then you haven't been paying attention to the media.

As I said, I will trust that justice has been served until and unless someone who knows far more than anyone here can demonstrate otherwise.

[MichiganVote]

40. Trauma has been shown to lead to repression

The repression of traumatic events is not confined to memory alone. This is a new area of science and much work must be done to understand what and when or with whom repression is most likely to occur.

Generalized statements, even when based on personal experience, do not provide a basis for further understanding.

What is especially important to understand about clerical abuse survivors are the conditions surrounding abuse which include rampant disapproval within this religion against sex, homosexuality, and females. Combine that with the deification that priests have enjoyed and the often very young age of the victims and conditions are ripe for repression.

I repeat, trauma has been shown to result in repression. This does not mean that therapist's and others have not abused their priviledge and used improper treatment. However the vast majority of reputable therapists do not use hypnosis or other forms of "mind control" and their clients readily recover aspects of a prior trauma.

[mzmolly]

43. Nice post.

;)

[msmcghee]

48. The issue is reasonable doubt . .

. . not what may or may not be true about the psychology of memory. Repressed memories are notoriously unreliable - that is proven fact - that's reasonable doubt.

This man's life is at stake. I don't care if he's a Catholic or Jerry Falwell's brother. He deserves justice under our system. Not a lynch mob.

[mzmolly]

52. How "reasonable" is it when this guy had several victims and advocated

openly for sex with small boys?

Sorry, "reasonable" doubt does not apply to this case.

[msmcghee]

58. Please back up that claim.

''Despite church teachings, he argued for acceptance of homosexuality and pushed for gay rights. He called himself a "sexual expert" and advertised his counseling services in the alternative press.''

Is that what you mean by "advocated openly for sex with small boys"?

Or is there something else that I missed?

[mzmolly]

62. Consider it "backed up"

Shanley, now 74, became one of the scandal's most notorious figures after archdiocese personnel records were released showing Church officials continued to transfer him from parish to parish even after they knew he publicly advocated sex between men and boys.

Try google for goodness sakes before defending this SOB.

http://www.google.com.ar/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2004-45,RNWE:en&q=shanley+advocated+for+sex+with+children

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

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[mzmolly]

79. 6 year olds are NOT adolescents. BOYS are BOYS not MEN.

And discussing the difference between a 6 year old victim and a 16 year old seeking a lover are not the same damn thing.


As for the article, I'll skip it as I have no desire to understand this man or anyone like him. Call it hysteria if you like. :shrug:

Regarding NAMBLA, I don't care to discuss them either, nor do I care to hear about the so called "good" intentions of their sick assed organization.

[msmcghee]

83. I can see you are way into this emotionally . .

. so I don't expect you to see things differently because of this post.

However, it is from a repressed memory that he allegedly molested a six year old boy - the recalled memory of a supposed continuous series of rapes and abuses that occurred over six years in numerous locations. I find it very difficult to believe that someone could repress all that.

It has been shown that many people tend to believe that prosecutors would not accuse someone of exceptionally heinous crimes if they were not absolutely sure they were guilty. The opposite is more likely true. Convictions in exceptionally heinous crimes can make a prosecutor's career.

That repressed memory is the only evidence that the prosecutor offered.

[mzmolly]

88. I can see you still don't have the facts surrounding this case and yet

continue to defend this rapist.

What sort of evidence do YOU require to convict pedophiles? This man had MORE THAN ONE VICTIM. A proverbial blue dress is not always present.

Further, the statute of limitations protects these jerks most of the time because children are too afraid to testify IF they recall and can articulate what happend. So, you can sleep well tonight knowing that the VAST MAJORITY of pedophiles molest over 100 children before they are caught and most are never prosecuted.

And yes, when it comes to defending children, I'm quite "emotional" and I don't have any qualms about that.

[msmcghee]

93. What sort of evidence I require . .

. . is not important. It is the evidence the prosecutor presents to the jury that is important . . which in this case was solely repressed memory evidence.

If he had more than one victim why didn't the prosecutor charge him with more than one crime? It is because he didn't have evidence that would hold up to examination.

He went with the repressed memory evidence because he believed he could find twelve people like you to be on the jury.

[mzmolly]

97. "Like me" please expand on that thought.

If you mean someone who would have considered all the evidence (including testimony from victims in the case) and made a thoughtful decision based upon said evidence then, I would surmise he did so because this SOB was found guilty.

Shanley had several victims dating back to the 1960's, and the evidence indicates the Church not only knew about it, but covered it up. It's not a case made up of the repressed memory of one individual alone as you claim.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/assign/Shanley-Paul-Richard.htm#docs

Further, on the one hand you call the victims liars, and on the other you seem to defend pedophilia? What exactly is your position? That the victims lied, but if they didn't it's no big deal?

If so, I guess it's too bad the defense attorney couldn't have found someone "like you" to explain to fellow jurors the joys of sex for 6 year olds with adult men? No matter, apparently these particular kids no longer feel their experience was "beneficial" so perhaps these mother f-ers should stick to consensual adults instead?

[MichiganVote]

57. First of all. let's be clear. ALL memory is either reliable or not

Memory is a tool of the mind. In the hands of some or for the purposes of others, it is either a good tool or a not so good tool.

You sound as though you have not read much on this perp. Did you know that he boasted for years that no one would be able to prove his guilt or stop him? Did you know that he admitted to child abuse in the Diocesan civil case? Did you know that he regularly frequented and supported NAMBLA? That he endorsed sex with animals? That he acknowledges having been abused as a seminarian? that he has been implicated in child trafficing and sexual tourism amonf minors in Thailand?

There was more for this jury to consider in this trial than the testimony of one victim.

If this man's life is at stake it is second only to his soul which died many years ago. He was given a trial and given a judgement. That is more than he gave to any of his victims. I don't see any lynch mob except in the court of public opinion and that court does not send Shanley anywhere.

[msmcghee]

60. According to the article . .

. . the prosecution's case was based on repressed memory recall.

Repressed memories are not reliable. It's a question of reasonable doubt - nothing more.

[CoffeeCat]

70. My repressed memrories are reliable!

I totally understand that, in the past, some bad therapists led clients to believe things that weren't true.

I also understand that there are vindictive people out there who might make up stories of abuse.

I also understand that some repressed memories cannot fully provide an accurate narrative of the past.

However, you cannot make blanket generalizations like "Repressed memories are not reliable."

Yes, some are!

I repressed memories of sexual abuse that were validated by others, who were there.

So, stop saying that!

Some repressed memories are not reliable. That doesn't mean they all are!

[FlaGranny]

106. The repressed memory

thing is difficult to understand. I don't doubt that people can have repressed memories, I guess. It's just that every single bad thing that ever happened to me - I remember - all too well. It's hard to imagine someone forgetting some of the things I can remember.

I was "molested" once by a family friend when I was 9 years old. I can still remember every second of it. I remember every second of every bad experience I ever had, down to the second. I am certain there are many others like me. People who remember everything bad will find it hard to believe that people can forget this kind of thing, but I'm open-minded enough to know that everyone's brain does not work the same way.

I'm pretty sure that the shock that makes me remember can be the same shock that makes someone else forget.

[MichiganVote]

86. Yeah well, sounds like you have more doubt that the jurors and they

sat in the box, not you and not me. So there you have it.

Reasonable doubt does not include unreasonable conjecture based on limited scientific inquiry and some cases in the 80's. The jury found the vic credible. End of story.

[NashVegas]

84. Try Not to Think of it as "Forgetting"

I never "forgot" I was sexually abused by a priest, I simply didn't think about it in the 5 year period between when I found out exactly how babies are made and one night, as a young adolescent girl, pissed off about something some boy did and school, counting back all the examples I'd seen of male & general societal hypocrisy in sexuality. Specifically, when it comes to female sexuality.

Here's how the thought process went:

There's this asshole, and that asshole before that, and yeah, that guy, too. Oh, and then there was - oh, fuck, I don't wanna think about that. No, let's just not think about that.

And FYI, that was somewhere around 1978, long before you ever heard about priests getting arrested for sexual abuse in the news. Long before anyone had any clue how rampant it was in or out of the clergy. Long before you ever heard of repressed memories in the news. Long before the lawsuits.

In the Shanley case, there was more evidence than one person's contested memory. There was Shanley's own file. And my, what a file it was!

I hope his victims find their peace.

[AngryOldDem]

76. Sparkles -- justice can be served!

Stay strong. Thanks for posting.

[NashVegas]

82. hi NewSparkles

I'm another of the tribe. Best of luck to you on your journey.

I get pissed off when I hear someone claim the memories are false, also. Self-defense mechanisms are highly underrated.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[okcdem]

64. hmmmm

I listened to the cross examination of the accuser on the radio. I couldn't even believe they could take a man to trial over that sort of evidence. Let's just say I have SERIOUS doubts that this priest is guilty.

[AngryOldDem]

77. Go to the Boston Globe archives

And read its extensive coverage on this issue.

[Hepburn]

96. I don't....

....and the reason being is because he used to be from the Palm Springs area ~ where I had a second home for many years. He was a POS then and there is NO doubt in my mind that he did what he was accused of. He is and was one very sick puppy.

BTW: I have done criminal defense work in the past, so for me to say that I have NO doubt a defendant is guilty....well, it takes an awful lot!

[okcdem]

99. Ok

I don't know.... maybe he is guilty. It's just I got the impression that the accuser was not credible. I really thought all the crying and such was an act. It seemed to me that this may be more about getting money from the church.

[AngryOldDem]

108. Shanley has a long and distasteful history...

...and I can't begin to tell you what it does to survivors of such abuse to hear that they are "trying to get money from the Church."

[AngryOldDem]

72. Good

Send him away for life.

[Lisabtrucking]

78. O NO! Not a Religious Person, Where's the morals. N/T

[MrSlayer]

85. Good, now they should hang him.

There is no worse crime than preying on children, it should be a capital offense.

[MichiganVote]

87. I love a great declaration!

[YellowRubberDuckie]

89. Every other religion has their fair share of pedophiles too...

But they're just not as publicized. But it's just more fun to turn every thread into a catholic bashing one, huh? :eyeroll:

Shanley is no man of God. He's a sicko. And he should have been defrocked. Yes, the Catholic church makes horrific mistakes, but come on. They're not the only ones.
Duckie

[mzmolly]

90. I agree fully. But, the Catholic Church has a history of covering up and

keeping these priests in a position to work with Children. I think that's where they differ.

I do respect many Catholics I know and am of Irish Catholic descent, but we can't ignore the fact that the church as a whole was often a party to what occurred.

:shrug:

[YellowRubberDuckie]

91. Honestly, I think it's because the catholicism is based on forgiveness...

And I think it's wrong too, don't get me wrong. I don't know what they're motivation is though, covering this crap up. The priests I've met have started protecting themselves. They don't have too much contact with kids alone. It keeps the kids safe, and protects the priests from themselves or from false allegations. Knowing this shit is happening to their collegues, THAT is the only smart thing to do.
And I do agree with you completely.
Duckie

[mzmolly]

92. It's one thing to forgive, it's another to continue giving these guys

access to children KWIM?

Glad you agree. :hi:

[MichiganVote]

94. Oh come on...you don't know what the motivation is on the part of the RCC

for covering up the sexual abuse of minors by priests? Where have you been living?

Even if Catholicsm and its illegal harboring of criminal priests was/is a decision based on so called, "forgiveness", we have laws in this country and these priests and their Bishops broke those laws. Not that they thought much could happen to them and so far they are doing their best to keep it that way.

[Divine Discontent]

98. Christianity is based on forgiveness

catholicism has it's roots in Christ, I always wonder why people reference the denomination or in this case, the "catholic" church (instead of the protestant), and not Christianity.

but anyhow, it's possible this was all made up to make money off the case, or it could be true, who are we to say, but there is no doubt that he enjoyed sex with young men, and if I'm mistaken, let me know.

I will agree like another poster said above that boys seem to seek out sexual experience, one of my relatives touched me at 10 on my covered genitalia and hoped I'd respond, but I didn't, I never forgot the event, and just cast it aside even though the boy eventually married and had kids, also, when I was an adult a 10 yr old boy said racy things to me in an attempt to start some sort of sexual dialogue with me, and I asked him to stop, he did. he was my roommates best friends boy & he had him over a lot, and the kid was always wanting to run around naked (shudder!), and sadly, for me, my retarded cousin groped me down my pants when I was 4 or 5, and I repressed it ALMOST entirely, but would intermittently have deja vu about an older boy or man reaching down my pants, and I always thought it was a brother, but (unless that happened to), my brother eventually opened up about something that happened to him with this challenged cousin, and then I told him about my thought I'd have a few times a year, and he said, yes, I remember him doing that to you and you were crying and he got in big trouble, and then I recalled the event a little bit more, we were outside in a playhouse, alone, and my brother came out just a few seconds I guess after he had started fondling me, and ran in to tell on our cousin.

I do believe in RM, but I would find it very hard to believe that older kids could repress multiple events happening, but then again, we're talking something that the child doesn't seek out and they are molested in such a defiling way that they quite possibly were raped so badly both physically and mentally, that they push it ENTIRELY out of their mind until one day it just falls out.

God bless anyone (and the people who talked above) who has ever been molested. May we learn to forgive as Christ would have us do, and pray for those who do these things to seek purity in Christ for their sin.

[NashVegas]

103. I Believe It's More Than That

IMO, this is simply the most disillusioning thing a person can experience, as far as religious instruction goes. For those who've gone through it, it makes one question everything they've been trained to believe. It strikes at the very foundation of the church within the local community: the priest as the holy wise man, keeping his chastity for God & Jesus.

Someone, be it a person or an entity, who is seeking forgiveness does not attempt to sweep their actions under the rug.

[MichiganVote]

95. Do catholics ever give up defending the indefensible?

Everytime I read a post that is in any way opinionated about the RCC, somebody calls it bashing. As a non catholic, does it ever occur to catholics that they sound thin skinned and petty?

[Divine Discontent]

100. continued forgiveness, I'd say

but a penalty with prison time for their actions.

also, was wondering if anyone thinks that an OLDER teen, say 14-15 could repress sexual molestation by a family member's friend? I had a friend that denied anything happened in privacy and quite emphatically, is it possible that such an older teen could forget multiple occurances of molestation? I'd hope not, gosh I think our adult brains are pretty advanced, and YES, I understand it's ability to block horrible things, but can't believe our brain isn't smart enough to allow us to still know it happened even if we don't want to think about it.

[MichiganVote]

110. Repression is not restricted to memory. Trauma at any age can

impede full awareness or even consistent awareness of a sequence of events or actions. Just ask people at a bank who have been subject to a robbery. May will report gaps in memory, feelings or a hyperacuity to smells, colors, etc.

Repression is the brains way of protecting people from the effects of trauma. Its nothing ot be fearful of and nothing to take lightly as it can very powerful. "Smart" brains repress in times of great truama or stress.

[AngryOldDem]

107. Here's the difference

The Church most certainly deserves all the criticism and derision it gets over the way it handled the issue of sexually abusive priests over the past 50-60 years and beyond. Criticize the institution and its leaders by all means. Personally, I think almost the entire, current hierarchy should be removed, and a few should even be defrocked. I think these priests should have been treated no differently than a Scout leader, teacher, or any other adult who was found to be molesting kids. Nobody in this sorry scandal deserves a pass because they are "religious." Those bishops who knew of these abusive priests yet transferred them to keep them one step ahead of allegations are in my book guilty of conspiracy, if not accessory to a felony. They need to be in court just as much as Shanley or Geoghan did.

But here's the difference when it comes to "opinions" about the RCC...when you begin to personally attack people with obscenities and insult (such as that directed toward JPII on many occasions), and begin to mock the faith of many that is TOTALLY separate from the actions of some very sick people -- that is where a lot of Catholics draw the line. Myself included.

A lot of us within the Church are trying to get this shit cleaned up by pressing our state legislators to either extend or suspend statutes of limitations so that victims can press charges whenever they finally get the strength to confront their abusers. We are trying to get current statutes of limitations to stop running when priests are transferred out of state. We are working within the Church to get more lay involvement in such areas as finance and other issues that have been pretty much closed off to us for centuries. We ar working with survivors groups to assist in the healing of those abused. We want the hierarchy to be accountable to us. In short, we are trying to take our Church back to what Christ intended it to be, which is why a few of us get so thin-skinned when the criticism goes beyond constructive.

Hope that helps.

[MichiganVote]

109. Ok, I think I understand. Insults against the Pope are out, vulgarity

is not appreciated, and faith mocking is demeaning. That I can understand. I'll look for the differences in the future.

[Mitt Chovick]

102. May he suffer much

and then burn in hell.