NYT: Harvard President Apologizes Again for Remarks on Gender

[DeepModem Mom]

Harvard President Apologizes Again for Remarks on Gender
By SARA RIMER

Published: January 20, 2005


With the unabated furor over his recent remarks suggesting that women may not have the same innate abilities in math and science as men, Harvard's president, Lawrence H. Summers, issued a two-page apology to the Harvard community late last night.

"I was wrong to have spoken in a way that has resulted in an unintended signal of discouragement to talented girls and women," Mr. Summers said in a letter that was posted on his Harvard Web site.

"Despite reports to the contrary, I did not say, and I do not believe, that girls are intellectually less able than boys, or that women lack the ability to succeed at the highest levels of science," Mr. Summers wrote.

It was his third public statement in three days about his remarks at a conference on women and minorities in science and engineering last Friday, with each statement becoming stronger and more apologetic. His remarks have dominated the discussion on the Harvard campus and beyond, with female academics, alumni and donors expressing concern over his leadership.

Mr. Summers, an economist and a former treasury secretary, acknowledged that he had been hearing plenty of reaction himself. "I have learned a great deal from all that I have heard in the last few days," he wrote in his statement. "The many compelling e-mails and calls that I have received have made vivid the very real barriers faced by women in pursuing scientific and other academic careers."...


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/20/education/20harvard.html

[TaleWgnDg]

1. Awwww, *poor* Larry Summers . . .

ever since he came to Hahvahd his socks don't match. First, he riled the feathers of the black professors in the various black studies areas including the law school, too, then he dumped on some females, and now President Summers is telling more females that they are inferior to males.

Attaway, Larry! Shall the female profs exit as did the black profs that you enamored to yourself too? Sheesh. After the Harvard endowment investment guys leave, why doesn't Hahvahd dump Larry too? Who else will the *broad-minded* Larry offend? insult? trammel?

Maybe the *good* Governor Mitt Romney can call upon Larry to spew on about "gay marriage!"


.

[UL_Approved]

4. Repeat offender

What was this guy thinking? Did he really think that he could get away with saying those things? And when will the transcript come out about this anyway? Shouldn't this get exposed more?

[aquart]

7. You know why?

Because in the private little men's clubs where he hangs out, this is how they speak and this is what they applaud. So why wouldn't he think it was all right?

Trust me, all his pals think it's fine.

[Tomee450]

32. I suspect you are correct.

If he holds such views of women, imagine how he feels about minorities.

[UL_Approved]

2. Looks like that doggy got spanked

Bad chauvinist! :spank:

[Ken Burch]

3. Maybe some big mean girl

beat him up and stole his math book when he was just a widdle kid.

[roguevalley]

5. I think he's been in an insulated mans world too long. He's got

blinders on and doesn't understand that the understood blather than informs the minds of his 'class', ie, the ruling class of the good old boy network doesn't sound too nice outside the walls of their clubs.

Dimwit.

[aquart]

6. Fire the bastard.

I don't give a damn about his apologies.

[no_hypocrisy]

14. Agreed. And for several reasons.

1. He didn't offer evidence to prove his premise. Presidents of Harvard should not talk off their heads -- or out of their asses.

2. His concentration is economics, not social science, or science and/or math.

3. He's the president of one of the most prestigious educational institutes in this country where women compete quite successfully with men in ALL subject matters. Does he look at the grade stastitics?!

4. He invalidated 50% more or less of his student body generally and 50% of the students majoring in science and math. His remarks can demoralize the relationship between the students trying to cooperate together in projects by suggested one group is inferior to another.

What does this guy do for an encore: you can't "know" anything unless you have a relationship with God?!

Yes, resignation. If he won't take the hint, then fire his ass. He can join a corporate board of directors.

[DeepModem Mom]

8. Mo Dowd says Summers may be right -- Condi no good at math! Link...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2977169

[Hekate]

9. Women in the sciences have the gift of a different viewpoint

My favorite story from Discover magazine is of a woman working with a group of men who were attempting to develop a teachable robot without much success. She noticed that the men made the robots' outer shells and faces look big, rugged and, well, manly, like an adult machine.

However, what she knew in her bones -- and probably from reading scientific studies and having some personal experience -- is that human brains are hard-wired to respond in a nurturing, teaching manner to BABY faces. And baby faces across the mammal spectrum have certain things in common: rounded contours, "Bambi eyes," small nose and jaw. Adults everywhere behave in very similar ways when face-to-face with human infants and toddlers: voice pitch goes up, facial expressions are mirrored, lots of eye contact, words and phrases are repeated over and over patiently, tiny increments of progress are lavishly praised and encouraged...

The female roboticist made a baby-faced robot with big googly eyes, movable eyebrows and mouth -- i.o.w. a schematic of elements that human brains are hard-wired to recognize as a baby something that needs to be treated a certain way.

And it worked. She, the junior member of the team, made a breakthrough in developing teachable robots because she recognized what the human half of the equation instinctively needs...

SIGH.
It's true that as boys develop into adolescents the halves of their brains become more specialized, while girls' brains don't.

But there's more than one way to look at this, isn't there? Why not just say that women's brains remain or become better-integrated?

I think that it's possible that the greater specialization of the male brain allows for more instances of the kind of obsessive focus that is useful in certain fields, like becoming a chess Grand Master. This trait is rewarded in men and boys -- not so much in girls and women.

Every educator knows that most girls start kindergarten and first grade well ahead of most boys in spoken vocabulary, ability to stay on task, and readiness to learn to read. No one gripes about all those girls being held back to accomodate the boys; it's simply taken as a matter of course that every effort will be made in the primary grades to teach boys to read, write, and stay on task. Anyone who suggested otherwise would be taken for a lunatic.

The question is: why aren't similar efforts made to bring girls along in math and science, just as a matter of course? If that were the case, I think we'd see a lot more women, with our better-integrated brains and our different point of view, in mathematics and the sciences.

Hekate

[Spinzonner]

10. All well taken

and no individual should be constrained or discriminated against based upon the statistcal characteristics of a group to which they belong.

But what if both predilictions and preferences persist with respect to both traits and interests in spite of attempts to expand participation and are there realistic points of diminishing returns to programs that - in effect - attempt to squeeze the last few fractions of a percent out of the pool ?

And how will we differentiate the presence and effects of discrimination and inadequate encouragement from limits to the degree of participation which would result if there were no discriminatory causes ?

It was my impression that his remarks were an attempt to address such issues though they were inartful at best and stated and discussed in a shallow manner.

[xchrom]

12. he is a bigot and a sexist.

he is part of a long term plan to make harvard a conservative bastion.
harvard was for too long a thorn in the side of the corporate gop -- and pressure started several, several years ago to change that.

he is trying to create an atmosphere uncomfortable for liberal tinkers -- thereby making room at the top for less talented, less deserving{conservatives don't do their homework, they spin their homework} conservative thinkers.

there was nothing intelligent or thought provoking or even intelligently provocative in his remarks, no, they were crude, cudgle-like remarks meant to draw the sparks they did.

[Delphinus]

15. Wow, Hekate!

That's a wonderful story you related and you make some fine arguments. Thank you!

Blessings,

[salin]

16. It isn't just about the age/rate of development

there also persists a societal pressure in those ages that can curb pre-teen and teen girls in those classes. Something about girls not looking "too smart" and hence less attractive in the dating pool.

A group of students came up together in a g&t class from elementary school through highschool graduation. The girls competed, even excelled, in math until the end of jr high. Suddenly they became more self-conscience, giggly and less competitive in the math and hard science courses (trig, calc, chemistry and physics)... by senior year only one of the girls took advanced physics.

Go to any top engineering school and you will find many girls enrolled (and succeeding.) To me, the question, is how many were "washed out" earlier, in the high school years, who might have had the talent to be top chemists, engineers, physicists?

On another front, a dear friend is a successful top international physicist. Her post doc and first full position was at a top lab in the US. She repeatedly watched women curbed out... that is held to different standards during meetings, through projects, and other work to the point of being increasingly isolated in their work (eg assigned to lone projects) and silenced. Interestingly it was the very senior males in the lab that were most concerned and solicited from those in question to try to determine the problems and try to support the talent that was starting to slip through the cracks (on the way out of the lab and out of the field...) Sadly some of the "solutions" to try to address the problems were the isolation stated above... the end result was a continued exodus. Including my friend who was enticed to a prestigious overseas lab.

[Hekate]

35. Thanks for pointing out the *rest* of the story, Salin

Girls drop away from computer labs, too. When studied, a big reason turned out to be that the boys have "sharp elbows." They're so eager to play games (written with boys' interests in mind) and so competitive with each other that the girls get elbowed out of co-ed labs. As with the rest of K-12 education, the default student is male... The girls learned computer-related material as well as the boys once classes were divided by gender, especially if materials were presented with *their* interests in mind.

It is so difficult to know what to do about societal pressures related to intelligence and achievement for girls. No one even needs to say anything directly to keep a girl in her place -- we swim in gender bias and assumptions like a fish swims in water not knowing what "water" is.

There is some indication that girls may do better in sex-segregated schools, in the sense of being more forward with their own opinions and openly proud of high achievement. Greater self-confidence that may transfer to the wider world. I'm not so sure about separate public schools though, because it's just too easy to end up with separate-but-unequal all over again.

Parental expectations and support have a lot to do with any kid's success in school.

Anti-discrimination and affirmative action laws also help tremendously. To understand this all you have to do is look at the presence of women in sports today, and the numbers of female Olympic athletes from the US. Their numbers today directly correlate to the passage and enforcement of Title IX, which mandates equal money spent for male and female athletics programs on campuses. It has taken over 20 years, but the results have been amazing. I guarantee you, there would be no Mia Hamm today if Title IX had never been enacted, funded, and enforced.

Title IX is one more area where the right-wing (p'tui, p'tui) wants to turn back the clock -- they insist on treating athletic funding like a zero-sum game: boys must be seen to suffer if girls get coaches, equipment, and fields of their own.

Still so much to do...

Hekate

[AngryAmish]

46. Would you suggest single-sex schooling?

At least through high school? Or would the seperate-but-equal rule kick in?

[Hekate]

48. That's a very tough proposition for me

I'm a strong believer in the power of a quality public education to raise people up, but the US is going through a long cycle (downward, in my opinion) of changed attitudes on the part of the government, influence peddlers, and people generally. So I'm not too happy with the way things are just now, especially in my state, which in the past 20 years has chosen to starve public education and build prisons instead.

One of the most pernicious notions going around the country is that schools should be run like a business, with an eye to the bottom line. The business model is entirely the wrong paradigm to use. Also, there are no other businesses that require that all their key employees have a college degree, for which they get paid so little, or that require those employees to purchase all their tools and consumable supplies out of their own salaries.

Beyond that, I see public education struggling in so many ways -- being shortchanged by public policy-makers, persistantly denigrated by people with all kinds of agendas including the abolition of public education. I'm resistant to taking money away via vouchers for private, religious, or home schools -- they can pick and choose who they admit or keep; enough of that and public schools will devolve into the place of last resort for the poor, the moderately disabled with behavior problems (i.e. dyslexics, ADHD), and the seriously developmentally disabled. I devoutly wish not only more money but more intelligent planning would be allocated to education all over the country.

That said, there are some very fine magnet schools here and there in urban areas. They also get to pick and choose, but at least admission is based on talents and abilities and not on income, religion, or ideology. The magnet school model is one that might work for some girls, and would at least provide another option. What do you think?

Hekate

[jdj]

30. similar efforts

that is a very good point.

I think humans just need to face that differences like this are cultural and can't be separated from the culture that they originate in regardless of any theoretical difference in ability because of gender (I'm talking brain, not brawn). But you are so right, there does need to be an effort to bring females along, or, I'll go out on a limb and say there needs to be an effort not to push girls back and exclude them from certain fields on a gender basis. I'd guess that at least 50 to 75% of who we are or end up being is based on what we are told we are capable of becoming, and that which we are SHOWN by pure behavioral clues that we will not be PUNISHED or SHUNNED or MOCKED for becoming. Right now humanity seems to divide up areas of experience and intellect like portions of a pie...more for you means less for me, instead of trying to accept there is enough for everyone. That is what happened to me, I was told in not so many words what areas I was allowed to excel in and what things I would and would not be good at. Human children are highly suggestible and obedient, but I am encouraged to say that not all girls are subject to this or bowed by it as the valedictorian in my sister's high school class was also the homecoming queen, a blonde barbie type, who just happened to excel at everything she touched, whether it be cheerleading or calculus.

[makhno]

11. I'm still waiting ...

... for a letter of apology for his tenure at the World Bank. But I guess the poor and the foreign don't matter quite as much as a few ruffled bourgeois feathers.

[salin]

13. Too bad Condi never got to that point of "learning" as provost at

Stanford. There were a series of studies conducted that showed a great disproportion of retentions and promotions (to tenure, etc) of women faculty, even when the qualifications matched male counterparts. She continued to parrot the admin line that women were more likely to go into the arts and sciences which paid less and that there was no problem (with women phds continually leaving stanford for other presitigious universities). She did this in the early nineties, and much later in the decade when the numbers came around again (still reflecting a problem). Condi never had the .... I have realized.... the very real barriers faced by women in pursuing scientific and other academic careers.

Even back then she was the perfect sycophant and frontwoman for her bosses.

[jdj]

31. well, you know Condi, she doesn't have a "deprivation monologue"

like the rest of us hystericals.

[BikeWriter]

17. He should not be an educator! Women deserve better! n/t

[livinginphotographs]

18. Once again...

They apologize because they got in trouble for it, not because they didn't mean what they said.

Fire his ass, I say.

[bemildred]

19. Fire him. There is no excuse for this sort of stupidity.

Especially not for someone in his position.

[Freddie Stubbs]

20. Saw this one coming from a mile away:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1159367&mesg_id=1161985

[Mend]

21. Harvard: Please fire this fuckwit, please....

signed female M.D. who majored in chemistry and math in college and somehow stumbled through despite lack of penis, and, according to summers, a brain capable of thinking scientifically.

[Moe Levine]

23. No productive exchanges until driven by data not ideology

Since summers didn't say what everyone attributes to him, I am sure that he is puzzled about why the controversy.

He should have been a little more politically astute. A similar effort has been made to understand the substantial white/black gap in law schools and the legal profession.

In the months prior to the publication of a data driven paper on the subject the a huge volume of posts, exchanges, and "alerts" on various academic list-serves and an incredible number of attacks no different then the posts on this list. Here is a link

http://www.legalaffairs.org/webexclusive/debateclub_sander0105.msp

All of this noise led law professor Bill Henderson to observe, "Unfortunately, I don't think the legal academy will reach any constructive conclusions on your study until we are capable of having exchanges that are driven primarily by data rather than ideology."

Summers should have realized the same was true of this issue as well.

Insofar as I can tell, there is no one person who has posted to this list who is willing to be informed by any data on the subject. Summers should have known such and should likely not have attempted to get a discussion started.

[newyawker99]

24. Hi Moe Levine!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Moe Levine]

36. You are kind

35 years voting straight democractic will probably keep me on this list about a day :<)

[Mend]

26. Since MIT biologist Nancy Hopkins walked out and summers

apologized several times, maybe, just maybe he did say what was reported and what many of us find unacceptable.

[Moe Levine]

34. Nancy Hopkins walked out

my 2 cents is that Nancy Hopkins is a person who just looks for fights--that is her history. Summers knows that academia, today, is filled to the brim with people like her, which is why his mistake was saying anything, for anything he said was going to be used by someone for their own purposes.

I have two daughers and one son in college. We do everything we can to encourage all three to be as strong as possible in all courses. One daughter got an A in physics not long ago, and she is an advertising major. Never have we been so proud. We even have a family motto, "Those who can't do the math read."

I watch this from a distance and just shake my head--I can't see it helping my daughters--people like Nancy Hopkins just start and continue horrible images of successful women. Her "how" as Herb Cohen says, is horrible. She couldn't convince anyone with an open mind.

If she really had something to say, she should have stayed in the room and said it, it would have been reported, and we would have made progress. Instead, she made it all about her.

Being in MENSA, I used to follow the test stuff. It has always been very disturbing to many in such organizations that when you get to the really really high scores in math, most are men. I am not such a person.

We all need an answer why this was/is the case, for people with agendas will use such for their own purposes. My two cents is that some odd quirk is at work. I know that I do well on such tests because of two reasons: (1) specific written memory (I recall fairly well books I read 30 years ago, but I can't recall this mornings conversations); (2) ability to recognize patterns, of which I can say I only know of one or two people who have had a better ability. I am a walking most all day saying "this is like that," only the that happened 500 years ago.

That gets me in the 98 percentile+ However, I cannot do the math that the 99.99+ can do (1 in a 1000 or fewer). I am sure that these are the kinds of people for whom Harvard is looking to be a professor. Since math at this level is not about calculation (someone else did the calculation for Einstein), their own to be some way to fairly present the question without people going nuts. However, there isn't and that's why this fellow should have moved on

[ClarkUSA]

37. Are you here to blame Nancy Hopkins?

"my 2 cents is that Nancy Hopkins is a person who just looks for fights--that is her history."

Really?

She doesn't sound like "a person who just looks for fights" to me:

'Nancy Hopkins, a biology professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, was at the conference and was so upset by Mr. Summers's remarks that she walked out. "I applaud what he is saying now," she said last night, responding to Mr. Summers's letter. "But I still remain deeply concerned that someone could say the things he said last Friday."'

She's also declined alot of requests for high-profile interviews. I believe she behaved appropriately. And she left the room quite discreetly from eyewitness accounts.

Larry was an ass and he was wrong and I hope he's fired.

[Mend]

47. If possible blame women, blame how we act, blame how

we think, or don't think, pick on specific women, rationalize sexist statements, make sure to frequently repeat how liberals screw everything up with the political correctness. We are returning to racism, sexism, homophobia, and he is part of it. I want this man fired so that the message is sent that the great institutions will hold firm during these dark ages. If he had said this in the seventies, the kids (us) would have closed Harvard down until he was gone.

[Karenina]

22. Summers needs a serious

ASS-KICKING, right out of his job. WHERE'S SKITTLES?

[The_Casual_Observer]

25. The jerk ought to resign. Anybody dumb enough to say something

that in public, for any reason, is dangerous and irresponsible.

[donheld]

27. Is it really possible to apologize for this

Seems to me the damage is done. We now know he feels women are inferior to men. He may be sorry he was found out, but he's not sorry he is a discriminating bastard.

[superconnected]

28. he never apologized, he still hasn't - instead he denies saying it

An apology is, "I said this, I'm sorry, I was wrong."

What we've gotten is, he didn't say it and he thinks more research should be done to prove he's wrong. Everything else was hot air.

Third time in 3 days he has "tried" to apologize.

Expect him back tomorrow, trying again. Half the student body will demand it until they get an apology.

[grace0418]

40. That's what I was thinking

He basically called all the people attending the conference liars. And that's supposed to make people feel better? What an asshole.

[regnaD kciN]

43. A prediction...

Half the student body will demand it until they get an apology.

If they ever get it, conservatives will hold this incident up for years as an example of "hypocritical anti-free-thought tyranny from the 'loony left' advocates of Political Correctness."

:eyes:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

29. Translation:

Please PLEASE PUHLEEEEEZE don't oust me!

[alarimer]

33. a non-apology apology

"I am sorry if I offended anyone" but not actually sorry for what he said or admitting to being wrong. Jerk.

[jasop]

38. The Truth will always piss someone off

[fortyfeetunder]

39. From the trenches of technology.

Summers needs to open mouth, insert both big a$$ feet. This is a two footer that chump had done. Which proves for his profuse apologies, he didn't know what the fuck he just did.

He also validated what a bunch of pricks out there wouldn't have the balls to say but damn it if they aren't as guilty by continuing to undermine women in technical professions.

Still, in the 21st century, women who aspire in technical(biological/physical science, engineering, comp sci and math) professions continue to leave in droves, from the young women in K-12 who are discouraged from even pursuing technical careers, to executives who can't seem to break the glass ceiling.

And they wonder why some young ladies now aspire to act and dress like Britney Spears instead of Sally Ride(when she was Britney's age).

The lame ass excuse of discriminating against women because of them taking time off to have babies is a red herring too. I know of women who didn't take any long term leave, didn't have children, both married and single, who still got shafted on the job, and ditched their careers because they got fed up with the bullshit. It hits all women, married, single, old, and young.

This is a prime reasons why organizations like Society of Women Engineers. MentorNet, Women in Science and Engineerng, American Association of University Women, Association for Women in Technology, etc. exist. Because women still need the support from community to stay in the profession. And thanks to bastards like Summers, it's job security for these organizations....

[grace0418]

41. With an "apology" like that, he

should be appointed to BushCo's cabinet any day now.

[98geoduck]

42. He's just a tip of the Conservative Ivy League propagandists

Berkley, MIT, Yale etc have the same pinheads on top. It's probably why there is a sharp decline in foreign student applications...They see what Yale/Harvard produced for a president and are thinking twice about our "Institutions"

[hyphenate]

44. They should fire the bastard

End of story. We have had this rotten attitude for many years--too many. It's time that MAN learned the WOMAN is his equal--if not in fact his superior in many different ways and areas.

Fire the bastard. Won't be the first time an asshole got his own shit wiped in his face for unsubstantiated chauvinistic comments.

[AngryAmish]

45. He must be fired

He cannot discuss this subject, nor should anyone else. Silence is demanded and it will be enforced.