Court hears 'Confederate' dorm arguments

[davidinalameda]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/06/confederate.dorm.ap/index.html

A state appeals court heard arguments Wednesday over whether Vanderbilt University can remove the word "Confederate" from a dormitory the United Daughters of the Confederacy helped build in the 1930s.

The Tennessee chapter of the group claims the university's effort to drop the first word from Confederate Memorial Hall violates decades-old contracts, but Vanderbilt claims the contracts are no longer valid.

The judges, who did not say when they will issue a ruling, had strong words for both sides.

[liberal N proud]

1. Do they think if they erase the name from the building it will

make the history change?
Erase History so it can be repeated!

[Jesus H. Christ]

6. No, they want to change the present.

The only bad thing is that it took them too long.

[patrice]

2. The university is wrong:this sort of thing causes more harm than it cures.

I think display of the Confederate flag is a different, more nationally political, issue.

People who object to a name like this that has a specific historical context, but isn't a national symbol, should get a life.

This is just toooooo PC!

[Bono71]

5. Agree. n/t

[Jesus H. Christ]

7. Yes, and the swastika

has only a specific historical context.

[patrice]

12. That's not even apples and oranges.

You're comparing two things that are too different.

Symbols mean what people make them mean. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I choose not to participate. To me, word "Confederate" on a building does not mean that anyone approves of slavery, and I wonder about the motives of those who decide that it does.

[Jesus H. Christ]

15. It's the exact same thing.

It's the symbol of a failed racist country.

a German could just as easily fly it and claim he was only doing so because of his "rich German heritage."

It's still a symbol of white supremacy.

[patrice]

26. Do not mistake a word for the thing that it refers to.

Words are words; not the same things as those things (in the REAL world) to which they point.

All symbols mean what you want them to mean. Have you ever read Becket's "Waiting for Godot" or any other of the absurdists? One of the things that they reveal is the fact that conventional language is a hypothetical system of sets of hypotheses. Reject any of the "if this, then thats" and the whole thing/language comes into question.

This is why I find semantic absolutists VERY suspicious.

What is your motive?

[Jesus H. Christ]

31. "Nigger" is a word.

I assume you wouldn't want your kid going to a college where there's a "nigger house" on campus.

What it means, regardless of what I want it to mean, is pretty much the same thing as the word "Confederate." i.e. white people are superior to black people.

I know it, you know it, the United Daughters of the Confederacy knows it, and this school knows it.

So you can beat around the bush all you want, but we all know the score.

So what are your motives?

[patrice]

38. My motives are not to be suckered into things that detract from

what I have in common with those with whom I disagree on some points.

False dichotomies lead to un-necessary wars.

I can have my say about any language with which I disagree without violating the autonomy of others. They can have theirs. That discussion is more useful than using one definition as a bludgeon. We can compare our definitions without engaging in life-or-death power struggles that destroy what we might have shared.

[Inland]

48. Well, there was a "Confederacy", and it approved of slavery, so....

it isn't merely in the eye of the beholder. If it did, then the Daughters of the Confederacy wouldn't mind the hall being named Andersonville or any other name.

What you REALLY mean is that you chose not to be insulted by a building name associated with a rebellion made for the sake of perpetuating slavery. That's quite all right: I'm not sure I would care so much, either. But the Vandy people may have more PR cares than I.

[Moe Levine]

70. I chose not to be insulted?

It seems to me that historically the South didn't give much money to higher education in the 20's and 30's I seem to recall that at the time of the Scopes trial the budget for Harvard College exceeded the combined budgets of the State Universities in VA, NC, SC, GA, TN, and Ala. and Miss or some such.

it seems to me that anyone giving money to fund a college building in 1933--I think that was when the gift was made--had a pretty high regard for education--perhaps the name was a small concession to practicality or just common sense or may be even the remainder of the estates of one or two civil war veterns who recalled the deaths and losses of fellows and wanted to say, "if only they had had an education they might not have fought for slavery" who knows why people gave so generously of their treasure, but don't they deserve the benefit of the doubt?

all that I can say is that looking at this through the lens now offered is just down right silly. no one knows what motivated the gift why take offense when one doesn't know. that is just someone looking for trouble, of whom I want no part

[KenCarson]

13. are you kidding? as a broken cross it was around long before nazis

.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KenCarson]

24. no, i'm not. but you are namecalling to avoid a point

do a search on broken cross or swastika history. it was a symbol that existed before hitler and that his party adopted. sorry if you never bothered to look before you pointed a finger.

[Jesus H. Christ]

25. You haven't got a point. Just irrelevant trivia.

Yes, the Swastika was a symbol before the Nazis coopted it.

But if somebody's flying a black swastika in a white circle on a red field, we all know exactly what it means.

It's like say: "but the confederate flag isn't really the flag of the confederacy, it was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, blah, blah, blah." Doesn't matter. It still means what it means.

So stop with the little games.

[KenCarson]

29. i do. i refuted "has only a specific historical context."

i agree that most common place you're going to see it is in hate groups, but suppose some other symbol got adopted by a hate group, that wouldn't erase any prior usage except to people who wanted to ignore them.

[northzax]

53. certain symbols, no matter what their past use

are tainted with connection to a group. The swastika is one of those symbols. (you'll note, of course, as a historian of symbols, that the Nazi version of the swastika was reversed from the Asian symbol) no matter what the historical symbolism of the swatstika, it is so tainted by association with the Nazis to be unusable in modern times by anyone except those that wish to associate themselvse with the Nazis. The same thing applies to the Confederate Battle Flag. No matter that it may have flown over brave young men simply doing what they saw as their duty, the fact that, in the 140 years since, it has been used almost exclusively as a symbol of the worst of the Confederacy (racism and slavery couched in 'states rights') means that anyone who flies it now must know they are associating themselves with those that wear white sheets and burn crosses on people's lawns in the middle of the night. Sorry, but that's the way it is. 140 years of not standing up to defend your symbol means you lose it.

Language carries the same baggage, to a different extent. Frankly, I am disturbed that any university in the United States continues to maintain a building honoring a group that made war on the United States. You don't see "Daughters of Al Quaeda Hall" at NYU, do you? But it is the right of the university, as a private institution to do so. It is also the right of the university to remove any name from a building that they no longer wish to be associated with, if they are not bound to a contract. Frankly, even if thecontract has expired, Vandy should give the cash back to the groupt that paid for the building. I wager they could raise it in a heartbeat.

[KenCarson]

56. i agree with your ideas. my issue

was that i'm unaware of the flag being a symbol in any other context, whereas the swastika had a history prior. that's the difference and the point i was making. if aliens came to our planet and had to decipher all symbols, it would have more than one meaning, even if we humanoids really only see one.

[yellowcanine]

21. But they are a private university. They can do what they want. If the

Confederate Daughters don't like it, they can withold any future donations. I am sure money spent on rehabbing that 1930s dorm has long sinced dwarfed the contribution of the Confederate Daughters. Universities change the names of buildings all of the time - get over it.

[davidinalameda]

28. how is this too PC?

do you want buildings named after other enemies of this country

the Confederate States of America was an enemy of the United States

the Confederate flag is the flag of a country that was the enemy of the United States

it does have a "specific historical context"--the context is that the Confederates attacked a United States military instillation and killed how ever many soldiers that fought for the United States

I'm an American--I am a citizen of the United States. They fought against my country

they don't deserve to be honored

[damntexdem]

68. The University is right.

No matter what a judge rules about the validity of the contracts.

If they can't take off the name, they should tear the thing down.

[jdj]

71. I so disagree. Vanderbilt is a very prestigious university

there is no reason that black students that get accepted to Vanderbilt should then have to be confronted with this bullshit.

I can't believe I am reading posts like this on DU.

WTF.

[chunkylover55]

3. This PC stuff is going overboard

To remove the words "Confederate" from a dorm name in the interest of "diversity" is the height of stupidity in my opinion. I'm willing to bet if they took a poll of the students an overwhelming majority of them would not find the term offensive and would prefer to keep the name.

So everyone knows where I stand on this issue -- I don't think the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism either, and I don't think displaying it makes one a racist.

[Jesus H. Christ]

8. Thinking the Confederate flag isn't racist

is they height of stupidity.

[aikido15]

Yeah, just ask a person of color...

They will agree with you..it is racist..

What is wrong with people? Is it that hard to put yourself in someone elses place?

Jeez!

Confederacy stands for rascism/slavery and so does the flag!

[Jesus H. Christ]

11. I think they know perfectly well it's racist.

It's just that they're OK with that.

[aikido15]

30. Yep!

Sad, but you are most likely correct!

[patrice]

39. This characterization brings your motives even more into question.

[patrice]

14. That flag is racist. This isn't about that flag. n/t

[Jesus H. Christ]

17. The flag is a symbol of the Confederacy. That's why it's racist.

Same with the word "Confederate."

And the United Daughters of the Confederacy is, for the most part, a white supremacy group.

It's kind of like having the Neo Nazis building a dorm with the words "The Third Reich" in the name.

[KenCarson]

18. that flag is a symbol, and it has whatever meaning you attach to it

but i'll agree that most anyone flying it is probably on some sort of racist kick

[Weembo]

22. Another appearance by the flamer extraordinaire

Weren't you the "rap lyrics are all acceptable because they are free speech and the rest of you be damned" dude? You have some funny categories.

[Jesus H. Christ]

23. Rap lyrics are acceptable because it's art.

And I fully accept allowing people to fly the confederate flag. In fact, I prefer it. It let's me know who the racists are.

I also accept allowing people to take it down.

[Weembo]

50. And history is history

[Jesus H. Christ]

55. Yes.

And the Confederacy was the 19th century equivalent of Nazi Germany. And this school wants to remove its name from one of its buildings. Here in the 21st. So I say more power to them.

[Weembo]

57. You have a right to listen to whatever music you want

And I agree (with reservations) that expressions, whether in music or art, should be allowed to exist despite their offensiveness. I differ in that I expand this view to include history and architecture. History does not change, although interpretations and interpreters are plentiful. The name of the building is no more offensive than certain music or art is to others. Tolerance to all, or tolerance to none. Everyone should voice their opinion, and take actions to back up their voice if so moved. My only comment relates to the different sides you take.

[Wisc Badger]

52. Boy you sure like to toss the terms

bigot and racist around a lot don't you. Somethings are just more effort than they are worth, have you ever heard of the concept of picking and choosing you fights/battles.

As for the allusion to rap lyrics, I find rap and what it tends to stand for demeaning to women and a waste of time and effort, and that does not make me a racist/bigot, though I bet that is what you will call me.:puke:

[Jesus H. Christ]

54. I haven't a problem with calling a spade a spade.

Giving last night you were going on and on about how muslims are out to kill Americans and ram planes into buildings, it certainly fits. What was the term you used? A "significant portion?"

And then there's your post asking if torture can be justified.

If you don't like rap because it's a "black music," then you'd be racist. Most people don't have a problem with "Hey Joe" even though it's more misogynistic then anything you find in rap, yet they say they have a problem with rap. So there you go.

[Weembo]

59. For someone so sensitive

You don't have a good grasp on the history behind the phrase you just used "calling a spade a spade"

[Jesus H. Christ]

60. Congradulations, Weembo.

You've just discovered sarcasm and irony.

[Weembo]

62. Hearing that from a deity helps

Also reminds me of Doug and Dinsdale Piranna. "Then he'd resort to . . . sarcasm and irony. It was devastating."

[donsu]

4. Confederate should go

you wouldn't keep the nazi word on things today

confederate/slavery

[patrice]

19. So let's do away with all language that anyone has a problem with.

I prefer to choose my battles.

Language struggles are essentially about power. Because I resist transgressions on my autonomy, I object to transgressions on yours.

Within certain wide limitations, one's reactions to the words of others are one's OWN. You can always choose your own definition over theirs, define your own terms, don't play their power games.

[aikido15]

34. Just rascist language...there is a law against it!

:eyes:

[patrice]

44. Practically anyone can construe practically anything as racist.

The hypothetical nature of language cuts both ways.

If the state is to prosecute each and every claim, we could not function.

That's why I say, "Define your terms" and "Your reactions to my defintions are your (any my) business, not the state's."

[Xithras]

58. Actually, confederate is still a commonly used word

It's simply means ally. Just a few days ago I saw an article in the paper about the arrest of a couple gang members who were confederates of another gangster accused in a local murder. The word is still commonly used and has no "racist" overtones.

The south called themselves The Confederate States of America to contrast themselves with the United States of America, but they could have just as easily called themselves the Allied States of America since the meaning is exactly the same. If they had done so, would you be calling for the abolition of the word Ally, Allies, and Alliance today?

The CSA flag is a symbol of opression. The word Swastika is the name of a symbol of opression. Confederate is simply a word, and is no different from the "States of America" that followed it.

[stefanw28]

61. TFH

more people were enslaved under the US flag than under the Confederate Flag (and please distinguish the official flag of the confederacy from the confederate battle flat).

Perhaps you want to ban ships because slaves were transported in them?

[Jesus H. Christ]

66. That's a ridiculous argument.

Those "slaves under the US flag" were in the south, that's why the south seceded, and that's why the North beat the hell out of the South and freed the slaves.

[KenCarson]

9. what a load of PC BS.

i'll buy into this PC revision theory when people starting looking outside the US borders for examples of history that show they are neither unique or special, except in their insistence on rewriting history so no one is offended by anything.

[Jesus H. Christ]

10. No, no. You're confused.

Historical revisionism is pretending the Confederacy won.

[KenCarson]

16. it lost, but the DAC gave the money for a memorial.

replace confederacy with any other adjective for a group donating money for a memorial and it becomes a different story. they could always find a way to return the money if they really want to make a point.

[chunkylover55]

27. Wrong, historical revisionism involves removing any

traces of the confederacy in the name of "diversity". Should we also remove all Stonewall Jackson monuments around Virginia because they "may" offend someone driving by them? I went to a high school named after a Confederate general -- all the high schools in surrounding counties were also named after Confederate leaders -- should we also change the names of those high school? No, because its part of the heritage of Virginia which cannot be denied or ingored.

To remove all vestiges of the confederacy in the South IS revisionist history.

[davidinalameda]

32. is removing all vestiges of Nazism in Germany revisionist

or is removing all vestiges of Communism in Russia or other countries that were ruled by them at one point


No, it's not

[Jesus H. Christ]

33. I wouldn't have a problem with removing Jackson monuments.

Just like I wouldn't want to have any monuments of Osama bin Laden in New York City.

Historical Revisionism is teaching kids in history class that these people were the good guys.

[aikido15]

36. LOL!

Osama statue in New York...Good one!!!!

Maybe that will help them understand this issue!:think:

[DBoon]

35. No we don't remove them for "offending " people

We remove them because we are a nation that no longer celebrates white supremacy, the institution of slavery, and the society built around it.

After the fall of the Soviet Union, statues of Lenin were removed for exactly the same reason. Street names in East Berlin were changed to remove mention of communist figures.

It's not "political correctness", it's recognizing what we do and do not stand for.

[aikido15]

37. It's nice...

to hear someone that understands this issue.

[chunkylover55]

40. Well, the problem is that the South and the Confederacy

do not stand for slavery and white supremacy. It is an unfortunate part of Southern heritage but these things are not synonymous with the South.

Stonewall Jackson was a great man and deserves a monument. He wasn't fighting to preserve slavery -- he was fighting against northern agression. You invade someone's homeland and tell me you wouldn't expect them to take up arms. Their loyalties lied with their state and not with the Union. Robert E. Lee was offered command of the union army but refused knowing that army would be used to invade his homeland in Virginia. I can't fault these men for wanting to defend their homes.

[Jesus H. Christ]

43. Yes, and the Third Reich

did not stand for antisemitism and Aryan purity.

:eyes:

"I can't fault these men for wanting to defend their homes."

LOL. And I suppose you support the Iraqi insurgency?

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[davidinalameda]

64. are you still here

thought you would be nuked by now

[Jesus H. Christ]

65. I'd bet some Nazis would be embarassed by the comparison too.

Nevertheless it's true.

Anyway, what kind of freeptard censors the vowels in "dumbass?"

[KenCarson]

46. it's true. the southern states have much more history than just the civil

war or slavery. and slavery was not confined to just the southern states.

[Inland]

51. The Confederacy stood for slavery. Not much else.

The reason for the confederacy was slavery. The reason for secession was slavery. I can't speak for the personal reasons of Jackson or any other individual fighting, but the stated purpose of the states leaving the Union was to maintain the institution of slavery from what they saw as a national government increasingly hostile to slavery.

See Mississippi Declaration of Secession, January 9, 1861
http://extlab7.entnem.ufl.edu/Olustee/related/ms.htm

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

[iamjoy]

41. Sigh...Think Outside The Box

We could debate whethter this is too PC & whether there was more to the Confederacy than racism (like tariff and centralization of federal power issues) - it is all a matter of perception and no one's mind is going to change.

Why not remove the name Confederate and just have it as "Memorial Hall" but then have a subtitle or large plaque - "Built by Daughters of the Confederacy" or something like that.

Or call it "Civil War Memorial Hall" but some Southerners still prefer "War of Northern Aggression"

[KenCarson]

45. i like your idea in the send paragraph

it's workable and i've seen similar things work

[radric]

47. The name is Confederate Memorial Hall...

in memorial to Confederate soldiers killed in the war. I can't see anything wrong or PC about that. Memorials of all type pertaining to the Civil War are all over the country honoring each sides dead.

[Inland]

49. Better yet--get the Sons of the GAR to donate a similar amount and

repair the building or build a wing--then you can change it to the non-partisan "Memorial Hall" for all the dead from teh civil war!

[kwolf68]

42. You go Jesus

..

[damntexdem]

67. If the contracts are ruled valid, ...

then tear the damn building down.

[Cornjob]

69. My solution? Re-name it Dale Earnhardt Memorial Hall!

That way even the pickup & ball cap crowd can cheer!