DMV Director Supports Taxing Drivers by the Mile .. (Arnold's new person)

[SoCalDem]

Washington State is loooking into this too.. See what happens when taxes get cut arbitrarily? States start to look for goofy revenue-enhancements,,:(


http://www.news10.net/storyfull1.asp?id=8565


DMV Director Supports Taxing Drivers by the Mile

California's new Department of Motor Vehicles director advocates overhauling the way the state raises money to maintain its roadways, but many drivers and privacy advocates find her idea alarming.

Joan Borucki has said she favors placing tracking devices on vehicles and then taxing drivers for the miles they drive. She says that as more drivers buy cars that get better gas mileage, the state is taking in less money from its gas tax. Even though Californians are driving more than ever, revenues are down nearly 10 percent.

snip....

The Global Positioning System tracking devices would communicate with state computers via satellite, and downloaed information would then be used to calculate the tax bill.Environmentalists worry that a mileage tax would remove the incentive for drivers to buy hybrid vehicles. Others say such a tax would be more open to fraud than taxing at the pump.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said today that he didn't yet have a position on the mileage tax. "I know the idea that she is talking about, but I do not know exactly what it will do," Schwarzenegger said. "So I will stop and think it through before I make a decision."

The Legislature would have to approve any change in the gas tax.

[JuniperLea]

1. oh great!

tax all of us who were smart enough to trade our suv's in for small, low emission vehicles and let the big gas hogging humvees and suv's skate! great, just great.

yet another excuse to put tracking devices into our lives! hear that mr. orwell? the future is now...

[SoCalDem]

2. Our water company did something similar a while back

We got an ominous WARNING in our bill one month ..telling us how our water bills would go up by 50% , if we all did not conserve..

As it was , they went up about 15%....

flash forward a few months.. another WARNING..

this time it was to announce that water rates were going up 35% because REVENUES FELL DUE TO EXTREME CONSERVATION... :eyes:

35+15=50%..and they wasted all that extra paper..:(

[JusticeForAll]

25. Your prices actually went up more than 50%

Percent changes are multiplicative...

1.35 x 1.15 = 1.5525

55.3%

Either way it really sucks

(Sorry my OCD is acting up this morning)

[rainbow4321]

48. Gas fees by the mile article/tolls

http://tinyurl.com/6w6n3

Instead of paying tax at gas pump, someday you may pay by the mile

PHILADELPHIA - Paying your road taxes in the future might depend more on how much you drive than how much gasoline you pump.

Texas is among a group of states researching how to replace the fuel tax with a fee based on the number of miles traveled--making every road a virtual tollway. Transportation officials from across the world discussed the concept here at last month's annual meetings of the trade groups representing the highway and tollway industries.

Fees for miles traveled would be measured by Global Positioning System receivers embedded in vehicles. The system would track which roads a motorist uses so the virtual tolls could be distributed to the appropriate agency.

Each jurisdiction could set its own per-mile fee. Data would be downloaded from vehicles monthly for billing, or could be transmitted at service stations in lieu of the gas tax.

[Cronus Protagonist]

57. Let's tax Arnold's mouth - $100,000 per fuckup

We'd be out of debt in a year.


http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[tech3149]

3. cost/benefit makes it totally impossible

It would take billions to accomplish and probably wouldn't geterate revenue for decades. Foolish, foolish Joan!

[makhno]

5. Yeah, but...

...think about the millions in contracts to various high-tech firms. I can feel the campaign contributions already.

[tech3149]

45. That and tracking people

are the only reasons that make sense. One reason I never got EZ Pass.

[DS1]

4. It's a flat tax for the road

The rich don't care - and probably either live nice and close or have a limo drive them around anyway.

You know any multi-millionaires with a commute longer than 30 minutes?

[SoCalDem]

6. What they NEED to do is install scales at the pumps

and charge tax by the weight of the vehicle.. Hummer=$5 a gal ..Suburban=$4 gal...Honda=$1.50 gal


That would be fairer:)

[JuniperLea]

7. good idea!

i really like that!

[SoCalDem]

8. and hybrids would have a special "card" that would give an additional

discount:)

[NV Whino]

12. Cards for every car is my idea

Card identifies the type of car and price is charged accordingly. Or better than cards, each car has an identifier and is automatically scanned at the gas pump. But same principle, SUVs and ridiculous Hummers pay thrugh the nose (so to speak), fuel efficient cars get a lower price based on gas mileage.

This seems do-able to me. Toll bridges and highways currently have scanners that scan passes. Mobile has a scanner in their pumps for their credit cards.

There's a psychological thing going on here, and I'm sure there's a psychologist in the crowd who could explain this, but just raising gas tax hurts all of us and offers no incentive to the Hummer driver to use a more fuel efficient vehicle. Being singled out with a higher price does offer an incentive. Perhaps the best explaination is the old reward/punishment approach.

[jimbot]

15. Raising the gas tax does not hurt us equally

The hummer driver (or beat up old El-Camino driver) spends $2 for every 10 miles they drive while they hybrid driver spends $0.50 for every 10 miles they drive. We all should be driving less and looking at burning something other than fossil fuels. This encourages us all to consume less and encourages the large consumers even more.

I'm all for penalizing those that consume more, even if it means penalizing the people that are buying 1973 used cars because they can't afford a hybrid. I just think it is more cost effective to implement a straight up increase in the gas tax. We don't have to figure out what people are driving, we don't have to track cars, you simply pay at the pump. It would also encourage ALL people to look into more fuel efficient cars even if theirs are fairly efficient anyhow.

--JT

[Dem2theMax]

47. What happens when the person who drives an old car because

they can't afford a new one is hit with this tax and now they can't afford it either? They can't afford to buy the gas to get to work and they end up losing their job. And don't say 'use public transportation.' Where I live, we don't have any. And I have an old car and couldn't in a million years buy a new one. A tax like this would kill me and millions of others too.

[DS1]

9. The Southwest double ticket argument doesn't work

why should this one?

I know we're talking about thousands of pounds instead of hundreds, but some lobby will find a way to defeat that idea

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jimbot]

22. MESSAGE BOARD RULES (SHORT VERSION)

1. This is a message board for Democrats and other progressives.
2. Treat people with respect. Don't be rude or bigoted. Discuss the message, not the messenger.
3. Don't post entire articles. Instead, post short excerpts (not exceeding 4 paragraphs) with links.
4. Respect the wishes of the moderators and administrators.

[TahitiNut]

36. Not smart.

<-- this is a clue

[CAcyclist]

43. That's a good idea!

Cars do a lot more damage to the environment than just the gas they consume. Their size have a major impact.

[MADem]

53. Tell all your widebody passengers

...to get OUT before you fuel up!

[Zorro]

10. I think this won't go anywhere

An immediate legal challenge to this plan would be how to certify that the accumulated miles were driven solely in California vs. any bordering states, and how to exempt the out-of-state miles from the tax. It could get real messy.

The current tax based on consumption (i.e. the car's gas mileage) is already an efficient mechanism for making the people that drive more (with inefficient cars) pay more. If they want to increase gas tax revenues, they can always be open about it and just tack on another cent or two per gallon.

[jimbot]

11. Some potential advantages

It could cut down on sprawl...there is incentive to live closer to where you work.
It could encourage use of public transportation.

The problem is that there is a solution that does this far more easily that doesn't cost anything to implement and doesn't require us to place tracking devices in the car.

Raise the gas tax...penalizes gas guzzlers more; encourages public transportation; encourages hybrid use; no implementation costs; can cut down on sprawl as well.

--JT

[saigon68]

17. I'm glad you want the Gov't knowing every place you go

I for one will NEVER accept this.

[jimbot]

18. Um, did you read my post?

I said that the better solution "doesn't require us to place tracking devices in our cars."

Maybe you should read, stop, and think for a minute before you post that I want the government knowing every place I go.

--JT

[JusticeForAll]

27. In defense of someone I don't know...

Did you read the article?

The snippet above gives you all the details that you need to know why raising the gas tax is infeasible -- Because it requires a legislative act.

The vehicle tracking alternative while costing potential millions to adopt and administer would not.

[jimbot]

29. Yes, i read it.

I also read the part where it said:
"Under the plan the current 18 cent per gallon gas tax would be replaced by a mileage tax."
And..."The Legislature would have to approve any change in the gas tax."

I didn't see anywhere in the article where it said that the vehicle tracking alternative would not take legislative approval.

Furthermore, Saigon's post was implying that I was in favor of tracking devices...which I clearly am not.

My purpose in listing the benefits of this potential plan was to generate discussion on the fact that we consume too much fossil fuel. I specifically stated that there was a better solution.

If I'm missing something, I apologize, but I think that Saigon's post inaccurately portrayed my view on this topic and your defense doesn't seem to address this.

--JT

[saigon68]

50. Sorry JT

You are right--- I was a little hasty

[jimbot]

54. I've been on edge lately

Since the election...apologies here as well.

--JT

[saigon68]

59. Me too-- I'm so angry some days, I don't watch the news

Its disgusting to even think about what happened. Take care --

[ilovenicepeople]

33. And if you don't drive a car You'll be tracked by the mark of the beast,

I mean chip in your arm.Faith and Chips anyone?

[jimbot]

39. Chips

That Poncherello...hes a dreamboat :evilgrin:

[TahitiNut]

40. Why not the odometer reading when registration is renewed?

The odometers are supposed to be tamper-resistent already; just make 'em more so and piggyback on the DMV registration process.


This DOES NOT mean I approve of the idea. I favor gasoline taxes and higher registration rates for commercial vehicles.

[w4rma]

13. Tracking devices? Nazis. (nt)

[still_one]

14. STUPID IDEA

More government intrusion

What they should do is increase gas tax two cents, and insure that the increase ONLY GOES TO THE STATE DEFICIET

What a moran to suggest this idea

A lot of people need vehicles to go to work, and couldn't afford this crap anyway.

Incidently, I have two Prius cars, one first generation, one second generation, so it is not because I own large cars that I am against it. It is because it will hurt a lot of people.

They do not even have an adequate supply of hybrids, if people wanted to buy them

[The Backlash Cometh]

19. What happened to, "If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck?"

[Fridays Child]

20. How reassuring. You have Arnold to "stop and think it through before..."

...deciding how to rob you. It's like a surreal nightmare.

[Q]

21. Of course the 'tracking devices' will cost millions of dollars to install.

...so they'll have to raise taxes somewhere else to come up with the money to fund it.

- Some of these people shouldn't be in charge of anything but themselves.

[VegasWolf]

38. The patriot act will pay for it, just think the government will know

exactly where every one in california is at all
times. Want to bet the database raw data looks
something like <<tracking dev ID>, <timestamp>, <GPS Coordinates>>,
thus enabling a query of the sort, find all users at a
certain location at a certain time.

[Fovea]

23. Goodbye Exurbia

Welcome back to the new urbanist lifestyle.
This is like a stake through the heart of the current paradigm, which while painful, is needed.

[jimbot]

24. Thank you

You have said in very few words what I have tried to say in many :)

--JT

[SoCalDem]

26. Perhaps it's a way to "break" Californians

:(..

People out here are practically forced to commute.. A fer instance..

My son and his wife live in Concord, CA.. A starter-fixer-upper can cost 500K there, yet Concord still needs teachers, discount store cashiers, firemen, cops.. and non of these occupations pay enough for them to even LIVE in the community they work in.. They are forced outside the town..

It's like that here too.. Jobs never seem to pay enough for people to afford to live where they are..
1 bedroom apartments are $1000 a month and UP..and people can barely afford to rent..let alone buy..


If you bought your house 20 years ago, lilke we did, you are in better shape, but I honestly don't know how young families can make it..

[jimbot]

30. I understand that, and...

I don't think there is a simple solution. But I also think that lowering gas prices is not a good way for Concord to get teachers, cops, etc.
Perhaps they should look at subsidized housing for these members of their communities...or perhaps they should pay them a living wage for their community.

Exurbs encourage us to consume more, especially more petroleum. Cities are far more efficient at using petroleum, and other energy sources, then the exurbs -- or suburbs.

Collapsing these exurbs would be excruciatingly painful for all those involved. Encouraging fossil fuel use would be excruciatingly painful for all those that live. Not an easy solution in sight.

--JT

[jackster]

34. same here in Boston area

- in order to be able to afford to live in a decent place, my SO and I live 37 and 27 miles respectively from our jobs. I'd like to move a little closer, hoping that the less money I spend on gas to commute could go towards a comparable place but I don't know. My commute is currently about 2 hrs a day. SO's is about 3. Quality of life with that kind of time tied up in our autos isn't what we'd like. Urban sprawl has ruined some of the better communities that I would consider. Traffic in the local towns is horrendous.

Just today I see that acres and acres of trees have been chopped down right in my neighborhood for more retail space. In the last year, right across the street from my long established, very nice, and small condo complex has risen 4 huge houses and another huge condo complex.

Right now I'm not in a position to buy a new car and don't have a hybrid but the next car I buy (hopefully in two years) will be

I do feel that the heavier the car - more gas, more damage to roadways, taking up more valuable space on the planet, etc. - the more steeply expensive it should be to own, operate, insure, etc.

NO MORE TAX BREAKS FOR F**KING HUMMERS!

OH YEA AND I HATE THIS IDEA TOO! there's gotta be a better answer

aaaaarrrgggghhhh!

[SoCalDem]

61. My husband used to have to leave for work at 4AM and get home at 7PM

The irony.. It was not THAT far.. The traffic on the 91 is just that horrific.

Now his commute only takea a half hour, but gasoline still costs us over $300 a month these days..:(

I quit my job years ago, so I am no longer on the freeway too.. I used to drive 67 miles each way ..I went east..and he went about 45 wast..

My job required me to be there at 4:45 AM, so you can imagine what time I had to leave.. Luckily I drove the 10, and back then the traffice was only really bad through the badlands by Banning

[arwalden]

28. Isn't That Was GASOLINE TAXES Are Supposed To Be For?

[PROGRESSIVE1]

31. Arnold is following the Hitler model. He is putting on tracking devices..

on our our cars so they know where we are going.

[joefree1]

32. No f-ing way!

What a bullsh*t attempt by earth killers to support gas hogs.

[sandnsea]

35. Oregon too

I think they floated this idea last year or the year before. Didn't go anywhere. How about we stop red state welfare?

[JackieO]

37. slave state

comin' at ya

[neohippie]

41. Isn't that what taxes on gasoline do already

If your car weighs more, or uses more gas, then you are already paying more, if you drive more you consume more gas what is the big deal?

Edit: Sorry I should have read all the replies before I posted.

Ok so let me get this straight, the state is getting less revenue because they mandate more fuel efficiency, so they want the people who pay less in gas taxes now to pay also by the miles they drive. It sounds like double taxation.

WTF is going on in this country? So the next proposal will be that we outlaw travel, everyone lives and works in a government facility, is not allowed to travel without a visa of some kind and of course most of their income will go towards the cost of the goverment having to maintain the facility and it's security.

[durablend]

46. Double taxation...

Getting somewhat off the topic, but that's the same crap you have to deal with here with the propane companies. Use it and you'll pay $x.xx, but if you don't use what they think you should be using (and/or they're not making enough money off of you), they'll gladly charge you more for what you do use (so it's pretty much even in the end). They claim to do that so it's "fair and equitable" to those that use a lot but why the hell should I be punished for conserving it ?

[SOteric]

42. Don't worry too much about Washington State.

Some whackos have put forth the idea, but when running it past the largest voting body in the state this past election, King County Advisory Measure No. 1 voted the mileage tax down in serious flames. Probably because the vast majority of folks in this county live 50 miles from work and commute.

[Sin]

44. So when

Are they going to start Taxing the taxes
1. we pay for the roads.
2. they tax gas to repair the roads

So when are these guys going to get down to brass tax :)
and put them on tea and whiskey were they really belong I'm sure they can think up some nice stamp graphics with *'s face on them ugh. and then they can of course tax them.

I'm sure they will find a way to make corporations exempt from these if ever instituted.

[zulchzulu]

49. Let's put tracking devices on pedestrians and tax how far they walk

Yeah...we might track some other stuff too.

[pinniped]

51. Them Californians got some nerve buying cars that get better...

gas mileage.

Prius and Insight be dammed!

[VegasWolf]

52. You have a great user name for SF, I used to live just down the pennisula.

[gbwarming]

55. California is making in MORE money from gasoline sales tax

(because prices are higher). Excise tax shouldn't be declining either since, according to the EIA, gasoline usage isn't declining.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/states/oilsales_trans/oilsales_trans_ca.html


I'm pretty skeptical that ANY part of the country is buying cars (on average) that are any more fuel efficeint. Certainly the fleet average consumption of new and old cars combined (over 100 million) isn't being significantly reduced by the addition of less than 100,000 hybrids a year.

This per mile tax is a bad idea - they should just raise the excise tax (per gallon) to maintain revenue _IF_ consumption actually starts to decline.

---
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/states/california/northern_california/10134698.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp&1c
Posted on Tue, Nov. 09, 2004
New battle over where to spend gas sales tax

By Andrew LaMar
Mercury News Sacramento Bureau

SACRAMENTO - High gas prices are doing more than causing motorists grief -- they are generating a windfall for California's treasury and triggering a battle over how to spend it.

At stake is $1.5 billion from sales taxes on gasoline that voters said in 2002 they want directed to roads, trains and buses. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and the Legislature used the money this year to balance the budget instead.

Meanwhile, the run-up in prices at the pump is fattening the pot. California stands to earn $358 million more from sales taxes on gas in 2004 than it did the year before, according to the Board of Equalization. Yet most of the extra money will not go to highways or transit.
...

[Cronus Protagonist]

56. Aren't Republicans suppsed to LOWER taxes?

Didn't Arnold promise to LOWER taxes?

What is this shit?

If I had voted for the puffed up Sauerkraut I would be pissed right now.


http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[Gyre]

58. Air Resources Board can

tax the air we breathe too! Can't wait for that. Little meters on the back of everybodies head.

Gyre

[Tempest]

60. It'll never get consideration by the Democratic controlled legislature

This is DOA.

[SoCalDem]

62. True...for NOW

but I am not very sure that there will not be inroads made by the repubes.. There are articles all the time about how they are "gaining" ground in CA..With vaporvoting fully entrenched, how will we really know??

All it takes is for a few "surprises" every election cycle in "close" races, and our majority is eroded.. and they salways love to remind us of all the republican governors we have had..:puke:

[nolabels]

65. All roads lead to ..................

http://www.bartcop.com/

Do your really think Arnie won by that big of margin? or was it padded by mistake?

On edit, that's just leed in my head, so sorry

[SoCalDem]

67. Bad spelling ruins another good cartoon.. sigh

:(..

[halobeam]

64. I hope you're right.....and it is DOA...

Hubs and I had bad stroke of luck in the past five years, both became disabled. Got a used car as a gift from family members, but if you know Buick Roadmasters' then you know it's the biggest gas guzzling car Buick had EVER made. It costs about 65 dollars a week in gas to use, and we have absolutely no choice for right now. We get less in food stamps than we spend on gas. Crazy shit.

Hopefully, a disability settlement will allow us to purchase a new car by Feb. any suggestions for a car around the 18,000...range???

Hybrids are obviously out. Must seat four.

[SoCalDem]

66. look on cars.com

you can see prices for just about any car you are interested in, and can locate them by zip code..:)

[Denver Socialist]

63. Y'know what I'd love to see? A double taxation on gas eaterrs

Such as SUV's and Humvees who have VERY low MPG and CAFE standards. That should get the taxes quadrupled knowing how many half-wit morons with SUV's and Hummers out there as well as gas eaters.

That should get California and most of the states back in the black ink, honestly.