Kerry Fit to Sue "Unfit" Author

[kskiska]

Remember, this is from the NY Post.

LIBERAL loser John Kerry might be planning to strike back at John O'Neill, the "Unfit for Command" author who claims some of the credit for Kerry's defeat, sources say.

In the book, published by Regnery not long before the election, O'Neill — who, like Kerry, commanded swift boats in Vietnam — attacked Kerry's war record and branded him a traitor.

(snip)

Now, "the Kerry camp is thinking about filing a libel lawsuit against Regnery and O'Neill," a source close to the candidate's inner circle tells PAGE SIX. "I don't know if they will actually go forward, but consideration is serious. If Kerry plans on running again in 2008 — and I'm hearing he will — it would make sense that he'd file the suit."

Kerry's rep, David Wade, said he hadn't heard about any proposed lawsuit, but promised to look into it.

"It would be a lot smarter of Kerry to just apologize," O'Neill told PAGE SIX. "No lawsuits are going to change the testimony he gave and the impact it had on POWs."

more…
http://www.nypost.com/gossip/pagesix.htm

[NVMojo]

1. I hope he sues the holy frick out of those Rove leg-humpers!

[RyomaSakamoto]

28. quick! round up them laywers... we got THOUSANDS of'm, RIGHT!?

and a cool 50 million in the BANK... BRING'em On!

:puke:

[SammyWinstonJack]

102. I guess he's fighting afterall

:eyes: Gotta pick yer battles, ya know.

[ebayfool]

112. Awww man - mental picture, mental picture! make it stop! n/t

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[asthmaticeog]

2. If true,

where the hell was this a few months ago?

If not true, he STILL should have done this months ago.

[RyomaSakamoto]

5. who woulda thunk they would have been so nasty waaaay back then

:argh:

[LittleClarkie]

7. Kind of hard to sue someone in the middle of a campaign, innit?

Like he needed one more thing to distract from the issues.

[sidpleasant]

62. He should have called them LIARS during the campaign

I never understood why Kerry took the advice of 7 time loser Robert Shrum and Mary Beth Cahill to ignore the Swifties when it patently obvious to everyone here (and many others in the campaign outside the top level) that the Swifties were damaging Kerry. Kerry shoudl have called a press conference or given a speech where he flat out called the Swifties liars. A display of a little genuine outrage at the attack could only have helped Kerry.

[fob]

72. You are correct. He should have said, "Look, I debated this dirtbag

O'Kneel 30 years ago on the Dick Cavett show, it was lies then and it's even BIGGER lies today."

[OldLeftieLawyer]

75. No, he should have sued immediately

I'd have tied O'Neill's ass up tighter than it already is, along with every one of those lying bastards who ever said one word against John Kerry.

Then, in discovery, I'd have followed the money trail, and you better believe it would have ended up at the * doorstep.

I wish Democrats would just get angry and punch back. I'm so sick of this turning of the other cheek over and over. How many damn cheeks do we have?

They hit us. They hurt us.

We hit back. We kill them.

That simple.

[Tweed]

141. You have to show that the book has harmed you

There was no harm in the summer, or at least great proof in it. Now that Kerry has lost, he can fight better. He can point to the election as a suffering from the false lies.

[mirandaod]

3. DU attorneys.....

Would this suit have a chance of succeeding, if it goes forward? I don't understand what constitutes libel. (of course, I personally think it is)

[Laelth]

44. Depends on what evidence Kerry can muster.

Presuming that Kerry sues for defamatory libel (making false statements in a permanent medium that harm his reputation), he would have the burden of proving 1) that the statements made were false and 2) that the defendant knew the statements were false. I think it would be difficult, at this stage, to gather all the evidence required to prove that the Swift Boat Liars made false statements and that they knew the statements were false. Of course, anybody can sue. Access to the courts is (still) guaranteed by the Constitution. It seems unlikely that Kerry could win, but it might be worth it to his reputation to simply make the Swift Boat Liars defend themselves on these charges. At the very least, the truth would come out in court.

-Laelth

[mirandaod]

48. Thanks.

[Stinky The Clown]

59. Laelth, taking your assessment at face value and assuming Kerry looses ...

.... any lawsuit against Mr. Swiftshit, wouldn't that simply leave this exactly where it is now?

(August 2007) O'Neill: "You know, Wolf, he sued me for libel about this and he lost."

Or could it change things even if Kerry losses, which, as you postulate, is quite possible.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

76. Public figures

Thanks to Big Dick Nixon, we have NY TImes v. Sullivan, which is still controlling law in the area of libel of public figures.

It's a high hurdle to overcome, but I think Kerry could do it. At the very least, as Laelth pointed out, it would be worth it, to take them to discovery and get their answers on the record, under oath, all the while following the money ......

[CityDem]

120. Discovery is a double edged sword for Kerry

I am sure that the O'Kneel would force Kerry to sign a form 180 to release all of his military records -- something Kerry has been reluctant to do. Also, the swiftees would love to have the publicity for book sales and donations from freepers for a legal defense fund. Kerry should have fought this battle back in August when it really mattered. Now, he is better off enjoying the good life and forgetting about these creeps.

[RyomaSakamoto]

4. SUE for OUR RIGHT to VOTE, 'shipmate'

:wtf: this is a day late and a dollar friggin short and waaaaaaaay off course :argh:

[VivaKerry]

55. Thank you! No Kidding. N/T

*

[Redleg]

78. Kerry has a right to sue for this.

EOM<

[Peace Patriot]

167. Kerry lost?

There are a number of posts above and below this one that assume that Kerry lost. What are people basing this assumption on--that the corporate media told you so?

Ha, ha, ha!

You really need to look at the Freeman report, the UC Berkeley statisticians' report of this week, the CalTech-MIT corroboration of the Berkeley report (also calling for an investigation), blackboxvoting.org, chuckherrin.com, and all the evidence coming in from Florida, Ohio, North Carolina, New Hampshire and other places. The truth is the the great majority of voters saw through the Swiftboat Liars' crap and Bush's crap, and voted for Kerry in the most astonishing presidential defeat in history.

But our votes were run through central electronic vote tabulators using source code that is owned, and held as proprietary (that is, in secret--no public review, not even by state election officials) by major Bush donors (one of whom promised in writing to "deliver" Ohio to Bush), and rightwing religious fanatics. These same companies insisted that their machines did not need a paper trail (paper receipt for each vote--like a ballot, put in a locked box to be used for recount purposes), and they got their wish in a third of country. Secret source code. No paper trail.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist...

The preelection poll analysis, days before the election, and all the exit polls on election day showed Kerry winning, possibly by a landslide. This was the case until CNN and others began mixing the exit poll data with the Diebold central vote tabulator data, making it appear that the election turned to Bush in its last few hours. Dr. Freeman sorted the exit polls out from the Diebold results, and, using the pure exit poll data, established that the end result of the election (Bush winning) was wrong. (He establishes it to my satisfaction, though he stops short of saying just that).

Exit polls are used throughout the world as one of the chief checks against election fraud. They are only inaccurate when George Bush and his friends are involved.

The Berkeley study found 130,000 to 260,000 "excess" votes for Bush in three large Democratic counties in FLA. These are phantom votes, manufactured by the Republican owned and controlled electronic voting machines and central vote tabulators, OR, they are votes stolen from Kerry, by the same means. In any case--whether these votes would give Kerry FLA or not--the study is yet another red arrow pointed to election fraud.

Given the mountain of evidence of election fraud of various kinds (including massive illegal voter suppression--in plain violation of the Voting Rights Act of 1965), if the Democratic leadership and the Kerry-Edwards campaign do NOT challenge this election, the reason may be embarassment. This extremely fraud-prone, hackable, insecure, rotten to the core, Republican-owned election system happened on their watch. They should have burned down the Capitol to get this changed. They should have screamed their heads off and warned the voters. They were essentially silent on the theft of our democracy.

They could redeem themselves by challenging it now. We'll see if they do.

In this context, it seems inane and beside the point to be suing the Swiftboat Liars. They did not cost Kerry the election. Kerry did not lose. (Consider the source, though. This is probably just more wasted Post ink.)

The Democrats "lost" the election several years ago, when this election system was put in place. It is a wide open door to fraud.

I agree with RyomaSakamoto. They should be suing for our right to vote--and fighting for our democracy by any means possible, in this, its final hour.

[LittleClarkie]

6. Yeah! I could freakin' CRY!!

Get em John! I'd LOVE it.

This is what John Dean said he should do. And since the freakin' bastard has vowed to come slithering back in 2008, this would be a good way to put a stop to that.

Oh I hope so. I really do. I hate the way Repubs are going around acting like the Smear Boat Liars are vindicated just because Bush won.

[rooboy]

8. I wonder how much dirty money will be waiting for O'Neill now...

that he's served his purpose. Hope the prick loses his house.

[bunkerbuster1]

49. I'm hoping for a LOT worse for John O'Neill

Chucky Colson's butt-boy should be begging for alms for the rest of his days, after his role in this sordid, disgusting, despicable affair.

[zulchzulu]

9. Sue the Bejesus out of O'Neill...his lies are easily libelous

Stick a thick lawsuit up this motherfu*9er's butt. Once and for all, put a stake in the evil bastard.

[Dr Fate]

10. He should clear his name and have the last word.

DEMS need to refute these fuckers AND hit back- I say he should go for it.

[genieroze]

11. "It would be a lot smarter of Kerry to just apologize,"

Apologize my butt, sue the crap out of that lying scumbag. Kerry doesn't need to apologize for anything, what he said about Viet Nam was the truth. What thirty years from now we are going to have Abu Gharib guards saying that everything was a lie?

Read this
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE

[LittleClarkie]

32. One thing in the campaign I loved

when this came out, you'd think if Kerry was playing politics, he'd never mention 1971. But no, in speechs after the SBVT, he'd talk about how he helped end the war and was proud of it. I liked that. Nothing to be ashamed of and nothing to apologize for.

Meanwhile, someone should teach these guys reading comprehension. If you read the whole testimony, and take it as a whole, how can you not get what Kerry was talking about. He was defending vets, not deriding them.

[chelaque liberal]

54. This is really amazing. It needs to be out there.

I hope he sues. He might not win a lawsuit but Americans will win much more if they are forced to deal with reality. I know it will be painful for a lot of vets but maybe it would allow the healing to begin. Denial does not promote healing.

[GRLMGC]

12. After suing him, he should also beat the crap outta him

Man, I'm way too violent.

[genieroze]

15. Being that jerk want to take crdit for Bush winning

I say let's got beat the crapola outta him. We should at least protest at his house. Carry signs saying "thanks lots jerk"

:crazy:

[GRLMGC]

18. If I saw him walking down the street

I'd probably spit on him. He's just so vile.

[LittleClarkie]

31. Where do 250 people get off

I felt like this small band of men, and the media, thought they could decide for the country that we really didn't want Kerry. Yeah, that's democracy. :eyes:

I resent the way the Brothers were sort of shunted to one side. I've seen the SBVT called gallant in our local LTTE section for telling the "truth" so that the American people would be "informed" at what a weak candidate he was for being a war criminal and lying about his fellow soldiers. I ended up having to run into the Starbuck bathroom, I got so upset.

But not nearly as upset as when I saw someone here say that the SBVT must have been right, that Kerry was a coward. Aw, DUDES! Not here! NOT HERE!

I can't get over Rush and Coutier referring to Kerry as a war criminal, and then sympathizing with the soldiers in Iraq. Can't they see it's either one or the other. The criteria for the one fits the other. Pretzel logic.

[kskiska]

58. They claimed he shot a "teenager" in the back

Now they're all defending the marine for shooting the wounded guy in the mosque.

[genieroze]

104. Fact Check

http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html

[cyn2]

127. Factcheck

I know about that, but who reads that stuff bessides us? It's the ignoranti who need to find out.

I supposed Kerry could have sued during the campaign, but it might have kept the swifites on the front page even more than they were.

Actually, it was Cable News not the papers who hurt Kerry on this oen.

[othermeans]

24. I'll do it for you nt

[Brundle_Fly]

13. O'Neill

will have to wonder where all his friends go, if he is sued....

He is gonna go it alone.

FUCK THE SBV BOZOS!

[kskiska]

21. Kerry's got plenty of money for lawsuits

O'Neill will have to go begging with his tin cup to Freeperville again.

[Brundle_Fly]

26. damned right

lets see the chicken hawks stand up and defend a vet...

[ozarklib]

56. I hope he does it.

Kick O'Neil's butt and bleed the freepers dry.

[kskiska]

14. How about that other sleazeball Freeper whose name is on the cover?

He's not mentioned, but he should be sued, too.

[MidwestTransplant]

16. That would give the opportunity to probe the connection to the WH

and thereby give evidence of FEC violations.

[Stinky The Clown]

61. Ezzackly!

THAT'S what needs to come out of this. A direct link back to Chimups Khan's gang.

[OneBlueSky]

17. great idea . . . wrong lawsuit . . .

instead of focusing solely on himself, Kerry should be contemplating a lawsuit againt the Federal Election Commission, or against the election supervisors in every state, or against Diebold, ES&S and the other corporate vote counters . . . whomever he sues, the substance of the suit should be the mass of irregularities and outright fraud that characterized this election . . . that would do a hell of a lot more to salvage his reputation that a suit against John O'Neill . . .

[Pastiche423]

23. I agree 100%

That's the least he could do for democracy.

[mark11727]

116. And he still has $15 million to throw around for lawsuits

[MADem]

19. GOOD.

This suggests he is gonna run in 08. Had he sued during the election, the Swift crap would have been like Laci Peterson--all trial, all the time. Court TV, Larry King, every day....

But if he does it now, and slaps that O'Neill all over the map, the issue is done, settled, smacked down. People will drag that good reportage by Ted Koppel, that unfortunately not enough people saw, out of the woodwork, and in the end, Kerry will win, and the wingnuts will have to just shut up and take that bullshit off the table.

[sendero]

47. I hope he sues..

.... but I don't want to see him in 2008. It's just too little, too late.

[genieroze]

20. Being this jerk robbed us of our President

We should start a class action lawsuit. :evilgrin:

[Senator Lamb]

25. kerry kerry kerry

why didnt you rip them apart from day one of their attacks? why did you listen to cahill? im no political genius but you messed up big in not responding. you could have even derailed it in a serious yet joking way with john stewart that time, but you didnt, you gave the same talking points. wwhhhhhhhhhhhy?

[juliagoolia]

22. HA HA HA HA HA>>

I hope he sues each and every one of them individually and collectively for every dime they have and will ever have..I hope he bankrupts them all. He has the money to do it and needs to teach these asses a lesson.

[othermeans]

27. Then turn the proceeds over to Iraq Veterans against the War!!

[NEOBuckeye]

30. That would be a great move!

[genieroze]

29. We should all write to Kerry

and tell him to GO FOR IT.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

33. I hope he sues until the last person is sued.

Just like...

[Kenergy]

34. Traitor???

If it wasn't for the anti-war protestors putting pressure on
LBJ and Nixon to get out of Nam, there'd be a hell of lot more
than 58000 names on that black granite wall...I wouldn't characterize
Kerry's actions as treason. Just the opposite.
O'Neill is an asshole.

[Miami Liberal]

35. I hope he takes that little weasel for all he's worth.

O'Neill is a despicable human being.:mad:

[KDLarsen]

36. You gotta love the introduction..

"Liberal Loser"

Argh, why can't someone kick out Rupert Murdoch once & for all? :(

[rooboy]

39. Murdoch just moved NewsCorp to the USA.

He ain't going anywhere.

[rpannier]

163. Yeah...

Agreed on the opening. Typical Murdoch

[depakid]

37. Kerry really should file suit

if the facts are as I understand them, he can meet the standard of proof in a libel case without much difficulty. The trick will be finding the right forum and jury to hear the case.

[tsuki]

41. I would like to read John O'Neill's deposition.

Better yet, video tape it.

[depakid]

43. In Oregon, an assistant DA already gave

what looks to be a false affidavit against Kerry- at the very least, he relied on inadmissible and unsubstantiated hearsay- he'd also be an interesting one to depose (or better yet, put on the stand, 'cause he's easily impeachable for prior dishonest conduct).

[tsuki]

89. Depositions are killer. Look at Loopahman's.

And now that they video tape them... I'd love to see that greasy SOB try to do to a first class legal team what he did to Ted Koppel.

[depakid]

38. Kerry really should file suit

if the facts are as I understand them, he can meet the standard of proof in a libel case without much difficulty. The trick will be finding the right forum and jury to hear the case.

[saracat]

40. Proves he did want to respond and the DNC held him and Edwards

as rumoured .But we needed it yesterday. Now it is only about Kerry and doesn't benefit the country. So sad. I'll bet this is Theresa's doing. She can kick butt!

[Historic NY]

42. Praise the Lord!!!! He finally found his b-lls!!!

This O'Neil a--hole should have had a suit instituted months ago. He is a complete nut-job deluxe.

[Skittles]

53. balls are not required for courage

nt

[Puglover]

45. These "people" are bottom feeders...

I hope he does it.

[Keirsey]

46. follow money

It's the only way to out these scum.

Subpoena phone call records, search hard disks, etc.

[berni_mccoy]

50. They better hurry up before

The tort reform laws start placing caps on jury awards.

I also want O'Neill to be found criminally libel for slander. The guy should serve jail time for such damaging lies.

[ozarklib]

57. It doesn't matter if he gets awarded any money.

He needs to show everyone what liars the SBVs are. Clear the air, no matter if he runs again or not. Do it for the historians. O'Neil can go down in history with lying and mudslinging as his legacy. Jail is a good start.

[bunkerbuster1]

51. About time.

Ok, this is actually the right time--he couldn't have done this during the campaign, not with Edwards as his running mate playing into the "lawyers iz roonin' this here country!" sentiment among the nation's morans.

But a New Republic wag (forget who) had suggested that Kerry do this very thing as soon as Unfit for Duty came out, and I've been waiting for this to happen. He really does need to clear his name and destroy O'Neill and his contingent's continued political viability.

And if John can use some of his 45 million in legal funds to do so (I have no idea if he really can, legally), more power to him.

[Stinky The Clown]

63. He doesn't need the leftover campaign money to sue

As this is a personal issue, about him alone, then I have to believe he can use funds from any source to finance the suit. Surely he and Teresa have enuff to go for years against Swiftboiy and his camp followers.

[bunkerbuster1]

81. On a certain level that makes sense

in that such a lawsuit would settle a personal score.

Thing is, I feel our side has/had a huge stake in what the shitboaters did, not just to Kerry but to his campaign and, by extension to we the people. I know I would feel a tremendous sense of satisfaction if those thugs were proven in a court of law to have lied.

[The Backlash Cometh]

52. Sue the arrogant bastard.

[Isere]

60. He should have filed it before the election!

Go, Kerry!

Fighting back is the only way!

A little late, but welcome nonetheless!

[Catchawave]

64. Here's Exhibit One....

http://www.pbs.org/greatspeeches/timeline/j_kerry_s.html

Proves what liars they were.....

[lumpy]

65. The bloated pasty-faced little shit

should have to face a lawsuit. It might serve as a warning to smarmy bastards who write libelous books against public figures attempting to destroy reputations for political gain.

[CBHagman]

66. Bush actually joked about the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth

...yesterday at the White House while pardoning the Thanksgiving turkeys. Can you believe it? An event with schoolchildren and he makes some feeble joke about "Barnyard Animals for Truth." It shows he has zero sensitivity and zero class and zero humility. An unrepentant, vindictive, genuinely shallow being.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

67. I'd like to hear more about that joke

a full quote anyone?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

73. anyone? nt

[PeteGammons]

74. Here it is.

"Over the past week, thousands of voters cast ballots on the White House website. It was a close race. You might say it was neck-and-neck. When all the voters were in -- all the votes were in, Biscuits and his running mate, Gravy, prevailed over the ticket of Patience and Fortitude. The Vice President and I are here to congratulate Biscuits for a race well run.

It came down to a few battleground states. It was a tough contest, and it turned out some 527 organizations got involved including Barnyard Animals for Truth."

[tsuki]

90. What is this from?

[SammyWinstonJack]

103. Arrogant POS!

:argh:

[KTM]

WTF ?? Dumbass...

Did Dipshit just say "Patience and Fortitude" lost the election to "Biscuits & Gravy" ?? Is he REALLY drawing those (reasonable) parallels ?!?!?

[PeteGammons]

151. He was talking about...

...turkeys. Those were the Turkey's names.

[KTM]

146. WTF ?? Dumbass...

Did Dipshit just say "Patience and Fortitude" lost the election to "Biscuits & Gravy" ?? Is he REALLY drawing those (reasonable) parallels ?!?!?

[jackster]

126. jackster

I was driving yesterday when I heard a snippet from the Bush's turkey pardon and I almost wrecked my car!

This man has NO SHAME!

Also kinda maked me sick when I think of the innocent people he probably murdered as gov of Texas. I mean, pardoning a turkey when he wouldn't pardon Karla Faye.

THIS MAN IS A SICKO!!!!!!

[dkofos]

68. His money will be better spent if he goes after the vote machine companies

[realcountrymusic]

69. Imagine this

Kerry alleges in the lawsuit that "Unfit" was the product of collusion with the Bush campaign. KKKarl is deposed. Evidence of collusion emerges.

What then?

RCM

[Cocoa]

70. if it comes from the Post, take it to the bank

[IA_Seth]

71. Wrong Defandant, Wrong Suit, Wrong Time! n/t

[Torgo4]

77. Why He Should Sue-John Dean

The New Book Attacking Kerry's War Record:
How It Defames the Candidate, and Why He Should Sue

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20040831.html

Tuesday, Aug. 31, 2004
How should Kerry deal with the attacks? He should take a page from the playbook of the last U.S. Senator to receive his party's presidential nomination: Barry Goldwater, in 1964. Goldwater suffered the same type of attack, and set a precedent as to how to counter it: Sue. Never has a book been more deserving of a defamation lawsuit. And Kerry has several reasons to sue. One is to put these false claims to rest forever. The other is to deter future, similar claims.
Charging Kerry With Horrendous Crimes
The book doesn't mince words. It accuses Kerry of a number of crimes: fraud, lying before the Senate, filing false reports, dereliction of duty, desertion, and treason -- to mention only a few. As an example, I will analyze just one such charge.
Chapter Four of the book opens with a quotation from William Franke, a swift boat veteran (and today an attorney/businessman): "I will tell you in all candor that the only baby killer I knew in Vietnam was John F. Kerry." (Emphasis added.) Where's the support in the book for this? There is none. According to O'Neill, Kerry's swift boat gunner, Steve Gardner -- who is among the most hostile of the Swiftees toward Kerry - says there was a baby-killing incident, but he also says that Kerry had no idea it occurred, and tried to stop further fire at a civilian target. It seems from this that Kerry is better characterized as baby-saver than baby-killer!
According to O'Neill, Gardner "opened up (as did others), killing the father and, unintentionally, a child ." But only after the firing started, O'Neill says, did "Kerry finally appear[]; he ordered the crew to cease fire and then threatened them."
How does a man who is angered by a crew spontaneously firing on a Vietnamese family, and who tells them to cease and desist, suddenly turn into a baby-killer? Only in the authors' twisted logic, could this be anything but nonsense.

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robbedvoter]

79. YEAAA! The hell with the election - it's all about John!

He made it all about him. All about how he’d look, about his image, perhaps about his future, his pathetic dream of running another inept campaign. What about his followers, who put their hearts into the campaign and were cheated of certainty so Mr. Kerry could bask in the goo-goo congratulations of the sappy and wrong-headed "spare the country" editorialists.
http://www.nyobserver.com/pages/frontpage8.asp

[MrUnderhill]

80. It's almost impossible for a Senator to sue for libel. This won't happen.

Public figures (particularly national political figures) have almost zero ability to sue for libel. The legal standard of proof is just so much higher, it's almost impossible.

A second (equally important) reason is that they WANT him to sue them. They BEGGED him to do so all through the campaign. There's nothing they want MORE than to be able to subpoena his records and depose him. The military records Kerry didn't want released will be out there and they'll get to put him on the stand under oath and ask ANYTHING.

Even if they were lying about everything, this path would be more likely to damage Kerry (politically) far more than it hurt them (legally)... especially if he's considering running again in '08 (a path I also don't support).

[LittleClarkie]

83. But the lies were about things that happened 35 years ago

Would it make a difference that this wasn't about the actions of a Senator, but a 20-something soldier in Vietnam? OR that he wasn't a public figure at the time? Seriously, I'm interested in the point of law.

But then it might be the timing of the lies, that it happened during a campaign. But then these guys claim to be "private citizens." I dunno what's considered fair game.

[MrUnderhill]

91. Excellent question. Here's how I see it

Understanding that I have some legal training... but not in this area.

The standard is based on him 1) Being a public figure and 2) the speech involved pertaining to matters of public concern (it isn't relevant whether WE consider it a matter for public concern... "don't vote for this guy because" is the heart of free speech).

I also wonder whether the time difference would be raised as a legal point... but remember that Kerry was also a public figure at the time. He was testifying before congress and in the leadership of a national organization.


In balancing the possible good from winning the case with the possible harm (win OR lose) they could do to him... I can't imagine WHY Kerry would do this. The better course would be to continue to refer to them as "liars" and "debunked" etc.. for the next four years. THEN if he DOES run again it can be "old news". Let's face it... Bush STILL had a DUI when he was a kid... but it wasn't an issue in THIS election.

[LittleClarkie]

94. True about the testimony

But they went after his service, and he wasn't a public figure then. They can rail against the testimony until doomsday (some time around next Tuesday, I reckon) but they outright lied about his service. That's the part that gets me.

True about the DUI. It DID have an effect in 2000, but hardly one now. If Kerry is busy between then and now, hopefully it will be old news.

[MrUnderhill]

95. I agree... but a year's difference doesn't matter.

If the statements are essentially "he currently presents himself as 'x' when in reality he was 'y'" then there aren't completely (or even primarily) about his service when he wasn't a public figure. They are (at least arguably) about his public statements about that service while he was a public figure.

Yes, I expect the swiftliars stuff to be old news by the time the '08 elections roll around. Of course, I don't expect Kerry to be playing even as large a role then as Gore played this time. I think I'd prefer a 2nd Gore attempt to a second Kerry attempt... and I place BOTH of them behind a number of other contenders.

[Gothmog]

82. I hope that he sues the sob

O'Neal is a jerk and deserves to be sued.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lumpy]

85. You are wrong, jillybean.

It was Bush who is rumored to have not having been honorable discharged. You know, the guy that failed to take his medical examine and lost his pilots license. Dubya, the guy who didn't turn up for guard duty in Alabama. You know, the guy that was drowning in an alcoholic haze and had to have his Daddy Bush bail him out of his blundering wild and crazy ways.

[LittleClarkie]

97. Oh the freepers tried to pass that rumor around

but it was part and parsel to the whole Smear boat thing and staring at Kerry's military records until their eyes bled.

[juliagoolia]

107. Another rumor? Get Real !

Take thy rumor somewhere else.

Rumors are exactly why he should sue their socks off.. each and every one of them. And when he gets done the 49% of us that hate their guts need to sue them in a mass class action suit

[Catchawave]

86. Yes, he should sue....

...if nothing else, but to prevent the swiftie liars to attack in the future...if we have one.

Hope O'Neill can sleep at night, that a**hole.

[sherilocks]

87. I hope Kerry does sue

and I hope that the case is televised. Can you just imagine everyone glued to their TV sets day after day watching the nasty little dough-boy O'Neill and his lying brethren testifying on Court-TV? I get all tingly just thinking about it.

[Khephra]

88. Day late and a dollar short

He should have sued ages ago.

[CookieD]

92. Here's an example of a politician who won a jury verdict for libel

Although I think it was overturned on appeal, Houston mayoral candidate Sylvester Turner won a multi-million dollar verdict against a reporter who ran a false story and cost Turner the election.

http://www.stp.uh.edu/vol62/41/Features/feat3/feat3.html

Kerry should go ahead and do this regardless of whether he ultimately recovers damages. Many Americans think the Swift Boat lies about Kerry are true. Too, voters need to know whether false, malicious campaigning is legal and acceptable.

[sunnystarr]

114. You have to be injured

according to law. Kerry has to prove the lies injured not only his reputation but something more tangible. You can't prove it affected your public image or reputation without the loss of something. Losing the presidency is certainly tangible. I would encourage Kerry to sue sue sue ..... why not have Edwards represent him in the lawsuit? This can replace Scott Peterson and come into our livingrooms for months. I would so love to see those lying bastards made accountable!!

[Gman]

132. If it was reversed on appeal

it would have been reversed by the Republican dominated TXSC which also means courts, laws and juries are irrelevant in TX, unless they are tools of the GOP.

[Catchawave]

93. Um, okay, are we suing or not?....

Would luv to see a DU v Swifties replacing Peterson/Blake trials on cable newsies <snork>

[Tangledog]

96. And here's my verdict :)

Go after the Swifties. None of the extreme Right-wing mudnuckers have ever had to account for their behavior in a court of law. Therefore, it stands to reason that they will keep on doing what they do until they learn, through the application of basic behaviorist techniques, that they can't get away with it forever.

I have read the arguments that the money this will cost could be better spent elsewhere. They are well taken. But in 2006 and 2008, we will have another John O'Neill. The cancer has to stop somewhere. This, to me, is an excellent place to start.

[Gothmog]

98. Here is John Dean's take on Kerry suing O'Neil

See http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20040831.html

Kerry should take a stand not only for himself, but for future candidates and elected officials. Factually baseless attacks knowingly designed to destroy political opponents should be culled from our system: Defamation law is meant to serve that purpose, and so it is time for Kerry to file suit.....
Not unlike the infamous Goldwater issue of Fact magazine, John O'Neill's co-authored Unfit For Command reeks of actual malice. Whether Senator Kerry is elected or not, he should take these false charges to court in order to end this kind of campaigning. In so doing, he would protect not only himself, his campaign, and his legacy - he would also set a valuable precedent for future candidates, and do a public service by warding off future baseless attacks.

[lumpy]

99. Very well stated.

Thank you.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

100. excellent commentary from Dean! eom

[shuffnew]

110. Yes, put O'Neill right where he needs to be...

employed by Nixon and retained in the GOP since! He is a pitiful person w/ no identity of his own. He can thank Nixon that anyone even knows his name or what he looks like! He certainly doesn't stand on his own REAL war record!

I think Kerry and McCain should joinly sue the jerk for the slanderous lies against them and their families as they are both TRUELY and HONORABLY SERVED AS "REAL" VETERANS and this guy is a NOTHING (COWARD & LIER & DISGRACE TO THE MILITARY AND OUR COUNTRY)!

[cruadin]

117. I agree with John Dean's take on this issue.

Thanks for the link. Good article.

[matteroftrust]

123. Kerry should sue

not just for himself, but for the other veterans who were with him. The SBV basically implied, if not out right said it, that all the men on Kerry's boat were liars. He's not only clearing his own name, but theirs as well.

Also, to a lesser degree, he ought to sue for the men and women fighting in Iraq--our latest Vietnam. What does it say to them, sticking out their own necks for their country, when a veteran who was awarded 5 medals can be so horribly slandered to the point where much of the country believes he was, in fact, a coward, not a hero? The Swift Boat Veterans claimed they were standing up for their fellow soldiers who were "hurt" by Kerry's testimony. In fact, their assertions degraded those who were awarded medals--past, present and future.

By the way, hello everyone! I've been lurking for awhile, but this is my first time posting. Please bear with me while I see if I can figure out how all of this works.

[Festivito]

150. I agree, sue, and welcome to DU posting.

For fellow vets, medal recipients, future candidates, the dare to sue, and the depositions which could prove enormously interesting -- someone should sue. Collect a dollar or donate the proceeds to someone else.

Attach his house and clothes received for promoting his lies so he cannot hide them from bankruptcy. Such people are ruinous and should be ruined.

[EST]

169. Welcome to DU!

You've been missed!

[Gayla]

124. Perfect!

Perfect response and perfect reasoning.
I hope Kerry will do it!

[janetle]

129. We need depositions of both Rove and Bush

I want some kind of lawsuit(frankly, I don't care about what but this is a good start) that will pull in Bush and Rove as players. Even if they are bit players, I want them both to be deposed so that they each can be caught in a lie--no matter how small. We all know that small lies under oath about insignificant matters are enough to take down a president.

[Best_man23]

101. I hope he fleeces them

Maybe it will give the repug hack writers a moment's pause before they write falsehoods in the future.....well...maybe not because they are idiots.

If Kerry wins, bet here is he gives the money to charity.

[sunnystarr]

115. Kerry should donate the money to

Athan Gibbs' TruVote Voting machine and replace all the Dieblold, ES&S machines in the country. Then his lawsuit would kill two birds with one stone.

"Gibbs' TruVote machine is a marvel. After voters touch the screen, a paper ballot prints out under plexiglass and once the voter compares it to his actual vote and approves it, the ballot drops into a lockbox and is issued a numbered receipt. The voter's receipt allows the track his particular vote to make sure that it was transferred from the polling place to the election tabulation center."

Sadly Gibbs was killed in automobile accident last March but his dream is being continued by his family.

http://www.opednews.com/fitrakis031804_silkwood_evoting.htm

[Silverhair]

105. O'Neil has publicly and repeatedly dared Kerry to sue him.

I would love to see this go forward and go to court. It should be a most interesting trial. However, I am not optimistic that it will happen. I just don't think Kerry will carry though.

[rndmprsn]

106. sue his lyin ass off and force a pulic apology!

the cockroaches scatter from the light

[InvisibleTouch]

108. He should!

Few things were more vile in the whole rethug smear campaign than the swift boat liars. Trying to smear a guy who put his life on the line and served with honor and courage, is beyond reprehensible. I'm usually not a big fan of vanity libel suits - maybe because I personally have never cared what people said/thought of me - but in this case the lies have hurt his career, and are so gross and twisted that they deserve to be exposed for all the world to see.

[goodhue]

109. Seems a little late in the game to me.

Also seems a stretch to see such a move as related to 2008 aspirations.
In any event, I don't believe it will happen.
As a public figure Kerry would not have much of a claim.

[WoodrowFan]

111. Teddy Roosevelt did

Roosevelt sued several author and publishers for libel, even while President. I think he won one case, but got maybe a dollar in damages. (I don't have my Roosevelt books handy).

[shuffnew]

113. Page 6?

Your link is not going to the subject matter posted?

[NinetySix]

118. If he loses the lawsuit, do you suppose he'll appeal...

...or meekly concede defeat?

[artr2]

119. Kerry will not do sh*t

"no balls" Kerry will not do anything - to much of a pussy - claimed he would fight to have all the votes counted and droped out the next day - electable my ass - the greens are looking better & better - fuck these limp wristed democrats

[DubyaSux]

121. I think there is evidence...

...that O'Niell lied and knew he was lying.

Ted Koppel did a report not too long ago where they went to the Vietnam village this happened. The residents there were witnesses and vouched for Kerry's side of the story. Even a Swift Boat Liar showed up not too long before that and found out the same thing.

So, there is evidence they knew it was not true. They probably gambled on nobody ever being able to dig up something from 30 years ago.

And maybe that's why Kerry is talking about a lawsuit when he knows what he has to overcome in a successful suit probably more than any of us.

[bookman]

122. His testimony saved lives

Maybe mine. John Kerry did the right thing. Nothing that the repug chickenhawks would understand.

[Catherine Vincent]

125. I think Kerry should do it!

Sue that bastard!

[BrainRants]

128. I'm a Navy Vet

who served during peacetime in large part because of JK's testimony in 1971 when I was too young to know what war was. It took adulthood and this election spotlighting his testimony for me to recognize that, and I'll never forget JK for that. Thank You Shipmate! You got my back, I've got yours!

I'm repulsed by Hannity's comparison of the Marine in Iraq to JK. The Hannity's of the airwaves are the ones we should be fighting, these are the bastards that give people like "O'Kneel and blowme" legs.

Never Surrender!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

130. kick

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

133. Welcome to DU, BrainRants.

[BrainRants]

148. Thanks!

Longtime lurker, pissed as hell about this election and ready for the next fight. Bring 'em on!

[NJCher]

131. Lawsuits Aren't Just About Winning

They're about discovery, which if you know anything about discovery, you can ask about anything. Of course, the other side can scream bloody murder about your request but all that takes lawyer time and money and the judge usually throws the request out. Point is, much can be learned (and exposed) from discovery.

Second, if this lawsuit is filed it will show there is some penalty for such egregious lies. Not much of one, since the republicans have their coffers filled to the brim with corporate money to pay any judgments, but some, nevertheless. At least it would be a matter of public record.

I agree with bunkerbuster1's post 51 that this is actually the right time.

Welcome, matteroftrust! :)


Cher

[matteroftrust]

155. Right, it's not just about winning

It's about exposing lies. It's about standing up for what is right.

Still, if he were to win, I think he ought to donate the money to the Disabled American Vets or some organization like that. This is about Kerry's war record, and any damages ought to go to people who suffered from fighting for our country, whether or not that fight was right or wrong.

Thanks for the welcome Cher!

[WTFDutch]

134. Well let me ask this:

Should Bush be able to sue Micheal Moore, using the same logic?

[Catherine Vincent]

136. What lies did Michael Moore tell?

That shit was fact. If it wasn't, the bushies would sue. But more than likely, they probably will put a contract on him.

[WTFDutch]

139. Moore vs Swifties

Both presented "their version".

I just want to know what logic applies that doesn't work both ways? I guess my question is this: Why do you so vehemently reject the Swifties, and yet take what Moore said to be the gospel-thruth? Be realistic. Both had an agenda. Moores obviously fits yours better, but try to be objective. As far as a lawsuit, what did the Swifties do that Moore didn't?

[Catherine Vincent]

142. What do you mean "their version". Moore showed fact and

videos of Chimpy talking and his actions. Swift boat liars was giving their version which were all lies. I don't expect you to last long here, but you should hang your head in shame for voting for Bush**. He's a disgrace to this country.

[WTFDutch]

143. You assume an awful lot, all I asked

is what would be the difference? Using the logic I saw presented, what would be the difference? I asked a simple question, I was civil, I did not pick fight, I am not flamin anybody or anything, I asked a simple goddam question, and with attitudes like I am getting from some, your right, I won't last long here, because quite frankly, your acting exactly like the right claims you do, and I don't want any part of it. I wanted an honest opinion.

[aikanae]

159. not one thing said by SBV has been true - they deserve jail +

look at moore's site. you will see references for everything in the film. most have a link, or list enough information you can access it again.

as soon as the sbv said they were there, then they weren't, they lost.

you think people didn't deserve to know about the tiger force or 'winter soldier'? that was real too, and if you read the transcripts, he never said "all" of them.

moore states - point blank, he has an agenda and what that is. that's honest. sbv's don't say that. that's dishonest to begin with.

i'd like to know what O'neii's REAL cover-up is. the majority of his business is in Vietnamn. he wouldn't even have a biz if relations had not been normalized.

but, at least Kerry showed up.

did mccain ever sue for the smear they had on him?
bush's campaigns starting back in texas have all had smears. not a single one true. that's just how he does 'business'.

[jbnow]

137. Yes-let Bush sue Moore!

Great idea, start a fund.

I would LOVE to see the discovery on that. I think Michael would love it. Let's get Bush and friends on the stand.

[jhain]

144. ooooooooooh, yeah!

Shall we start poppin the corn tonight? Gonna need a BUG bucket.

[justgamma]

138. Sure except for one small fact

Moore never lied. Obviously you haven't seen the movie. It was all news clips of Shrub talking. Is Shrub going to claim he lied to the reporters?

[Festivito]

153. It's a fair question.

Moore's readings agree with mine. SBVT readings appear maliciously wrong to me, and worthy of suit. That's the difference for me.

If any particular point stands up for you, ask here on DU, ask me if you want. I debunked the fifty-nine so-called deceits about f911. Moore's website covers just about every word in F911. Moore backs up every point F911 makes with sources and links to major media. He's not the "gospel" source.

I've been attacked on DU. They're gone, I'm here. There are disruptors posing as liberals and they'd love to stop you from asking questions. Don't fall for it. Ask and ask and ask.

[Kimber Scott]

135. "Liberal loser?" Wow, that sets the right tone for an 'unbiased' look at

the situation, doesn't it?

[IndianaGreen]

140. Kerry should sue!

For one thing, if Kerry decides to run in 2008, the swift vets and the other Vietnam vets that hate Kerry will be there again, as they have been in every political campaign that Kerry has run.

Let the courts, and the American people, see all of the evidence that such a lawsuit will bring into public view. Let this festering wound be cleaned and dressed and, for Gawd's sake, let us bury the demons of Vietnam forever. We already have our hands full with the demons of the Iraq War.

[oldtime dfl_er]

145. sue the scum sucking weasel!!

get Edwards as his lawyer, and all of us will file amicus briefs -- or maybe we should all get together and do a CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT against that vile piece of cat sick! WE were injured, every one of us, by those lies.

[vinny9698]

147. Pat Robertson Law suit

Does any one remember when Pat Robertson was running for president, he sued some one because that person stated that during the Korean War, Robertson was taken off the boat going to the front by Robertson's dad. Then when the case was going to court during the campaign, they tried to delay the trail till after the primaries, but the judge refuse saying why bring on the law suit just to delay it.

[RiDuvessa]

149. Doesn't the 1st Amendment have enough assaults against it?

As much as anyone despises the book, doesn't the first amendment have enough assaults going against it right now? If Kerry does this, it just opens up any number of liberal and conservative books up for similar lawsuits. It won't matter who wins or loses, it will be enough to cause problems for the authors. And, considering the cost of lawsuits, just the threat that they could be sued may be enough to prevent an author or publisher from publishing a novel. Look what happened with "Saving Private Ryan." Numerous stations wouldn't show it because they were afraid of fines, even though they had aired it previously with no consequences. Self-censorship can be just as insidious as government censorship.

Besides, libel lawsuits are extremely difficult to prove and win. Usually, even if a jury convicts, the verdict is overturned on appeal. At one point, libel was so hard to prove, the NY Times didn't even carry Libel insurance.

I'm not sure the information that you MIGHT discover is worth the negative consequences from such a suit.

[IndianaGreen]

158. Libel is a tort

and if someone slanders you in print, you have the right to sue them for libel. This is not a First Amendment issue because its purpose was to prevent state action against speech.

[DoNotRefill]

152. It'll NEVER happen....

for reasons of Discovery.

This is one sleeping dog we should leave VERY alone.

[BOHICA06]

166. Yep, that Form 180 would be the first thing on the list...

...there are reasons why it wasn't signed, it caused too much grief for it to be a non-story.

Talk is cheap and it gets the faithful hopeful, but this is one case that will never see a court room.

[robbedvoter]

154. Al least Gore sued for us....but you guys attacked him anyway.

[AmerDem]

156. I'll believe it when I see it

I expect Kerry to do absolutely nothing. It sounds like more of the same empty tough talk we have been hearing from him and his handlers.

[mooseboy]

157. Hope he wins

Can he also sue the POST now too? I wish.

[eauclaireliberal]

162. I may just have some respect left for Kerry after all...

as long as he wipes the courtroom floor with that cocksucker O'Neill's face. He has been doing this shit to JFK since he returned from Vietnam.

If I may be so bold to note that O'Neill sounds like he's obsessed with Kerry...maybe to the point of homo eroticism.

[frankly_fedup2]

164. I would sue them and if he lost, I would take it to another court . . .

but he has to definitely ask for monetary damages. Civil suit found OJ guilty. He was found innocent in a criminal suite. He might lose in a libel suit, but take them to civil court and go for every last thing that man has. Because he took away and stole a dream a man who had served this country, was honored, tried to do what he felt was right when he got back here (just like some other soldiers are doing).

If Kerry's testimony and marches back in the 70's were hurting the soldiers still fighting and/or POW's so bad and causing them more pain and torture, then O'Neill is to blame for not doing something THEN. Nixon found this clown to go up against Kerry then because "Nixon" didn't want the horrors out in the public (kind of like Bush now). He sure didn't say much about Kerry back then or his character.

[Fear]

165. he's a bit F*#%ing late with that now eh????????

geeeez

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

170. kick