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Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
127. I didn't make up anything in that post.
Tue May 14, 2013, 05:22 PM
May 2013

It's simply not true to say that your side is totally right and the Palestinians are totally wrong, or that keeping the IDF in Gaza would have stopped Hamas. Hamas wasn' GOING to be stopped militarily....it could only be dealt with, through the imperfect process of negotiations.

And it's simply not true that Gaza would be freer if the IDF were still occupying it. The IDF(and you aren't reflective of most IDF people)just wanted to "preserve order". That's all any occupying army ever wants to do. Occupation doesn't produce liberal results(and if you're talking about Japan, the U.S. actually REVERSED all the MacArthur liberalization when it reinstated the old warlords in power as corporate leaders and invented the "Liberal Democratic Party", and most of it war reversed in Germany when the U.S. put defense of the "free market" above all else by having the CIA invent the Christian Democratic Union(the party with more former Nazis than any other party in German history) and by letting most of the business types that had profited off of the Holocaust keep every pfennig they made.

What I wrote about the U.S. in its early years was true. There was no freedom in the U.S. in 1789 for anyone but a handful of white males who happened to own property and believe in the most accepted form of the dominant religion. Everyone else was just as persecuted as gays and secularists are in Gaza today. Freedom ONLY came to the U.S. because activists, decades after U.S. independence, fought for it from below. It was never inevitable and most of the Founders(including all of the slaveowning ones)didn't want it for anyone but themselves. That's reality, buddy.

You confuse support of freedom and human liberation with support for the notion that the West has a right to claim inherent moral superiority over everybody else. That's not liberalism...it's "American Exceptionalism" on bath salts.

People who want a free world must work for it from below, and without deluding themselves about any region, any culture, any religion or any nation being entitled to lecture everybody else. Only those detached from the fight for geopolitical advantage, only those unconcerned about which nation "wins&quot winning being useless in this day and age)can work for any form of human liberation...it can never be achieved by any nation saying to any OTHER nation "obey your 'betters'". There's no such thing as being an Imperial Democrat.

I'm for everybody having the life they want, for all being free, for all living as equals and having easy access to the building blocks of life-to all having dignity and respect. None of those things can be achieved through one country keeping another under military occupation.

Your, not me, are invested in a "religious" belief...you are certain that keeping the bad pre-Oslo status quo was the only realistic choice. You have the right to believe whatever you believe. What you don't have the right to do is to demand that people choose either between that belief and another belief that anyone would find reprehensible. You don't the right to demand that people choose only between evils, because accepting evils as the only choice in the short term means accepting evils as the only possibilities for the futures. Good is never born from the choice of a lesser evil. It is only born of the will to reject evils entirely.

But, but, but Arab kids throw rocks. This I'm told excuses everything. /nt TheMadMonk Apr 2013 #1
obviously you are confused pelsar Apr 2013 #2
And no Israeli ever has killed or wounded anyone? TheMadMonk Apr 2013 #4
Don't change the subject. You cheer on palestinian rock-throwing child militants..... shira Apr 2013 #6
Just how much of that rock throwing takes place OUTSIDE the occupied... TheMadMonk Apr 2013 #21
Quite a bit takes place outside the territories, in Jerusalem, around the holy places.... shira Apr 2013 #27
And I've repeatedly said it's unacceptable, but you keep asking, because... TheMadMonk Apr 2013 #39
Interesting sub-thread delrem May 2013 #112
i was just asking.... pelsar Apr 2013 #8
Throwing rocks at soldiers is fine, throwing rocks at civilians is unacceptable. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2013 #10
"killing every soldier who won't lay down their arms" oberliner Apr 2013 #16
Jews must surrender, let Hamas rule over them. That will end well. n/t shira Apr 2013 #19
Palestinians must not resist Israel's right to rule over them. bravenak Apr 2013 #33
That's Intifada 1. The late 1980's.... shira Apr 2013 #35
They have a right to resist Israel's illegal occupation. bravenak Apr 2013 #38
But they're not only resisting occupation.... shira Apr 2013 #40
That's why there will never be a deal. bravenak Apr 2013 #41
Why? Shaktimaan Apr 2013 #69
" Why is Israel the only state with a god given right to exist? " King_David Apr 2013 #74
Interesting ideas you've got there. Shaktimaan Apr 2013 #64
No it's not acceptable, but it's bloody well understandable. TheMadMonk Apr 2013 #22
Killing innocents is understandable. Appreciate the honesty... shira Apr 2013 #24
No, lashing out like a wounded animal at anything within reach... TheMadMonk Apr 2013 #31
If it were only about resisting the occupation and settlements.... shira Apr 2013 #36
See my post 39 re: Clinton Parameters. TheMadMonk Apr 2013 #42
you skipped the most important numbers.. pelsar Apr 2013 #46
b. b. b. b. Israel responds with precision strikes orders of magnitude... TheMadMonk Apr 2013 #54
you still keep "forgetting facts" pelsar Apr 2013 #55
Why must: Israel pay back stones with bullets? TheMadMonk Apr 2013 #77
facts are not your strong point.... pelsar May 2013 #79
Believe it or not, I was once damned near 100% pro-Israel. TheMadMonk May 2013 #82
i just care about factual reporting.... pelsar May 2013 #85
I say glorified bottle rocket because that is about how accurate... TheMadMonk May 2013 #86
some hyperbole? pelsar May 2013 #87
I can only presume so... shaayecanaan Apr 2013 #34
whereas i disagree with your conclusion... pelsar Apr 2013 #47
Explain: what do you make of those *facts* nt delrem May 2013 #113
shouldn't you put me on ignore? pelsar May 2013 #114
Post removed Post removed May 2013 #115
I'm waiting for the results of the "alert" on this intolerant response! delrem May 2013 #116
This message was self-deleted by its author HangOnKids May 2013 #117
I agree,stop name calling and respect are important nt King_David May 2013 #119
Does the rock-throwing justify keeping Palestinians away from Palestinian-OWNED land? Ken Burch May 2013 #101
Perhaps some rock throwing, at some time, justifies any IDF action against Palestinians anytime? delrem May 2013 #102
no pelsar May 2013 #105
You know perfectly well that I don't approve of any of the things you listed there. Ken Burch May 2013 #122
failure does not excuse their attempts..... pelsar May 2013 #123
I don't have to choose between Israel and Hamas Ken Burch May 2013 #124
why do you make up stuff? pelsar May 2013 #126
I didn't make up anything in that post. Ken Burch May 2013 #127
who claimed this? pelsar May 2013 #128
I don't support Hamas OR the Taliban. Ken Burch May 2013 #129
well you should support them...as per your initial claim pelsar May 2013 #130
Stop doing that. You're using illegitimate debating tactics. Ken Burch May 2013 #131
you may not have to make those choices.... pelsar May 2013 #132
As to Egypt and those other countries, what would YOU have done? Ken Burch May 2013 #133
you keep trying....but i'm not buying.... pelsar May 2013 #134
The problem is, you see YOUR belief(that is, defense of the "lesser evil" by any means necessary) Ken Burch May 2013 #135
wow....finally were getting somewhere.. pelsar May 2013 #136
You're going to cite Germany and Japan again. Ken Burch May 2013 #137
I just asked if you wanted to be shown to be wrong? pelsar May 2013 #139
How can you say you don't believe that Arabs and Muslims Ken Burch May 2013 #140
wow.....are you ever wrong.... pelsar May 2013 #141
democracy wasn't forced on Israeli Arabs. Ken Burch May 2013 #142
I didn't say that EVERY step is a step towards the goal of freedom. Ken Burch May 2013 #138
I agree with pelsar that screaming at *them* does piss bloody all. delrem Apr 2013 #3
Be honest now. The IDF soldier was screaming at bigoted, racist.... shira Apr 2013 #5
you cant be serious shira , can you ? Israeli Apr 2013 #11
Those who work alongside the ISM, BDS'ers, Hamas, etc.... shira Apr 2013 #13
whatever shira Israeli Apr 2013 #17
Your lot is just as bad as the Yigal Amirs.... shira Apr 2013 #18
Nope we are not shira ... Israeli Apr 2013 #60
Sure you are. Let's see you rip into the ISM, BDS'ers, Flotillists, etc.... shira Apr 2013 #61
However much they hate Arabs, they hate leftist Jews even more... shaayecanaan Apr 2013 #37
Leftists who side with far Right fascists deserve all the contempt they get. n/t shira Apr 2013 #62
there was a Kahane Chai faction on here !! ??? Israeli Apr 2013 #63
Rabin is not one of yours. Barak's offers in 2000-01 went much further.... shira Apr 2013 #75
The statement is double talk as the British Palestine mandate included all of the West Bank azurnoir Apr 2013 #76
Rabin is not one of yours !!!!!!!!!!!! Israeli May 2013 #80
Rabin wouldn't bash & demonize Israel & Jews like Gush Shalom does.... shira May 2013 #83
you are very confused shira Israeli May 2013 #88
Rabin is right. But he doesn't demonize, dehumanize and spew vitriolic hate.... shira May 2013 #95
Rabin is dead shira ... Israeli May 2013 #96
another thing American .... Israeli May 2013 #81
Not surprised at all that you're a fan of Gideon Levy & Amira Hass.... shira May 2013 #84
why do you defend the occupation shira ? Israeli May 2013 #89
I take yr question to mean that you want the occupation gone.... shira May 2013 #94
then your as much a leftist as I am shira ... Israeli May 2013 #97
Post-Zionists are hardly different than Anti-Zionists. Almost identical.... shira May 2013 #98
if you say so American ... Israeli May 2013 #99
Maybe I should be as American as Richard Silverstein? shira May 2013 #100
Richard Silverstein... Israeli May 2013 #107
You're right - Israel is for Israelis. shira May 2013 #108
nope again shira Israeli May 2013 #110
nope... Israeli May 2013 #109
poetry delrem May 2013 #111
great answer there shira , thanks Israeli May 2013 #90
could you explain? HiPointDem Apr 2013 #57
happy to explain ... Israeli Apr 2013 #65
i don't have the money to buy a book to get basic information about everything i'm interested HiPointDem Apr 2013 #67
okay Israeli Apr 2013 #68
So sucks to be them, when the IDF shoots into a crowd of women and... TheMadMonk Apr 2013 #23
Pamela Pamela Pamela .... you outdo yourself. delrem Apr 2013 #20
Aww, what's the matter? Are you sad no one here wants to play your bullcrap game? shira Apr 2013 #25
Dear Ms. Geller: It isn't me who calls people "Jooooos". nt delrem Apr 2013 #26
Have a nice night, David. Or do I call you Dr. Duke? n/t shira Apr 2013 #28
Dear Ms. Geller: It is you who use racially charged language. delrem Apr 2013 #29
I'm back! bravenak Apr 2013 #30
I think you're a provocateur, and that you are everything the IDF soldier represents in this video. delrem May 2013 #103
so may we see some of that internet cowardice again? pelsar Apr 2013 #9
It's your nature to be an internet coward, always deflecting. So I don't blame you. n/t delrem Apr 2013 #14
still dont like answering ......no guts to play? pelsar Apr 2013 #44
play? what kind of a retrograde are you? The OP has nothing to do with rock throwing. nt delrem Apr 2013 #45
tsk tsk tsk pelsar Apr 2013 #48
You cry, whine, whimper, deflect. And there *were no rocks*. delrem Apr 2013 #52
try reading the posts....you'll learn where my response came from... pelsar Apr 2013 #56
There were no rocks, pelsar. No such excuses. delrem Apr 2013 #66
read slowlllllllyyyyy pelsar Apr 2013 #70
You ran with your favorite diversion when thrown out in sarcasm. nt delrem Apr 2013 #71
what diversion..... pelsar Apr 2013 #72
hey pelsar, rocks! delrem Apr 2013 #73
Israeli girl, 3, injured after car hit with rocks in West Bank oberliner Apr 2013 #78
And this has what to do with the OP? delrem May 2013 #104
It wasn't posted in response to the OP oberliner May 2013 #118
If there is a war going on, and enemy soldiers arrived near my house, armed up. bravenak Apr 2013 #32
i see you have more guts than most here...congrats... pelsar Apr 2013 #43
If you are a soldier and you can't take rocks being thrown. bravenak Apr 2013 #49
its a rather simplistic viewpoint.... pelsar Apr 2013 #50
What is Israel to do. bravenak Apr 2013 #51
i have no idea what that means... pelsar Apr 2013 #53
Oh well. bravenak Apr 2013 #58
i'm weak on buzz words.... pelsar Apr 2013 #59
Response from 972... shira Apr 2013 #7
Because as seen here-Israeli soldier: 'Cameras are our kryptonite' azurnoir Apr 2013 #12
the truth is the " kryptonite " azurnoir Israeli Apr 2013 #15
why is "finding truth" so impossible azurnoir May 2013 #91
yes azurnoir... Israeli May 2013 #92
oh my a referendum azurnoir May 2013 #93
blocked Israeli May 2013 #106
well partially the part concerning East Jerusalem was lleft azurnoir May 2013 #120
Jerusalem has always been ... Israeli May 2013 #121
yes I've heard that from 'someone else' here too :) azurnoir May 2013 #125
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