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Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
92. If you are right, there is no hope.
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 05:00 PM
Apr 2013

You see, the RW will win under your scenario, and the parade of victims? It is exactly what we do. Call it what you like, putting a face on the tragedy, but it loses effectiveness after two or three. After that, it becomes a parade of victims, and it's what we do.

We did that, we had one victim give the President's Weekly address. We had a different victim with everyone who spoke about the issue. We had victims at every appearance, we had victims one after the other in the press. The first two, or three were helpful, after that the message was lost in the chorus of voices and pictures and tragic stories.

You may find it insulting, but it is descriptive of the way we have reduced our argument. In 1993, we argued about all the laws we could, and should pass, and their effect. We argued about the constitutional aspect of the Brady Law, we argued a great deal about these issues. The RW and the NRA was just as powerful. Do you remember those times? Do you remember the bastard Rush Limbaugh opening every show with "America Held Hostage" because President Clinton had been elected with a majority of the vote, but not of the people? Don't tell me the RW was weak then, or the NRA didn't fight us, because both statements would be untrue.

The NRA fought, and then they poured massive dollars into Newt and his lying Contract with America. The RW struck back, and stole the house with propaganda. But we didn't give up the fight, and the Brady Law stayed law.

Under your scenario, the RW will win because it isn't anything We did wrong, it is just that they have too much money to defeat. In a word, crap. Democrats voted against the legislation, Democrats who are certainly worried about being painted as liberal, and anti-gun. If we had sold the bill using something other than statistics, and the parade of victims, they may have been willing to risk it. But we didn't make a single argument worth the name.

We parade the victims, and anyone who raises an argument, all we do is shout the same tired statistic at them, one that lost it's effect days ago, and then shout that they wouldn't dare make those comments to the victims. We did that, and we do it. It is a debating technique that is absolutely the worst possible one for convincing those fence sitters.

So we're going to beat those who voted against it? How, by shouting more statistics? By parading more victims? If it didn't work for the Sequester, and it didn't work for the Gun Control, and it didn't work for immigration, then why do you think it will work next time? One of the definitions of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome.

So what do I suggest? I suggest educating ourselves to be able to match the RW quote for quote. I suggest educating ourselves with Supreme Court Precedence when constitutional questions are put forth. I suggest showing how silly the question is with what most of us would call common knowledge. You say it won't work, because the RW is the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

But when we talk to people, we find that generally a majority of the people support liberal ideals, until they find they are labeled as liberal, because our image is one of shouting, statistics, and the parade of victims. We are seen as shallow and unconcerned. When Constitutional questions are raised, we ignore the question, and answer with meaningless gibberish to the average man and woman out there. I'm saying we need to stop that, and show the average person we know what we're talking about, and we're right. I'm saying we need to do our homework, so when the RW hits us with a question smugly expecting to trip us up, we instead answer and make them look silly instead of looking like we're dodging the question.

I don't care about changing the RW minds. I care about convincing those twenty percent that matter. The ones in the middle. The ones who when they support us, we get elected. The ones who voted against John Kerry in 2004, and the ones who abandoned the NeoCons in 2008, and again last year. The ones who will slide back to the right as soon as they find a candidate they can stomach. Just shouting that the RW is full of hypocrites doesn't help, because those same people see everyone in Washington as a hypocrite.

So I'm wrong because I use a phrase like parade of victims. It's insulting according to you. Well, its insulting to me, because lots of good arguments are lost when all we do is say that Mrs. John Doe lost her Son, Daughter, or Husband to a gun, so we need to pass this legislation. Legislation that when cornered we admit wouldn't have prevented anyone from getting killed. We either get serious about this process, or we give up and get used to living under the RW government. Those are our choices, and I for one don't want to give up because they have money.

do you truly believe the RW would honestly debate the issues surrounding gun control? DrDan Apr 2013 #1
You don't defeat the RW by shouting slogans. Savannahmann Apr 2013 #7
"Senator, we always place limits on Civil Rights.??? loyalsister Apr 2013 #12
True, but the truth remains. Savannahmann Apr 2013 #14
I still don't buy ownership of an object designed to as a civil right loyalsister Apr 2013 #43
This... Pelican Apr 2013 #78
I didn't say it was limited to police or knives loyalsister Apr 2013 #80
Two things... Pelican Apr 2013 #82
I didn't say guns should be banned loyalsister Apr 2013 #83
Not really we lost because of the NRA money.. NewEngland4Obama Apr 2013 #2
Which side has a billionaire true believer on it? NT JohnnyBoots Apr 2013 #4
According to this they spent a whopping $3million lobbying... pipoman Apr 2013 #18
Well thought out JohnnyBoots Apr 2013 #3
When an issue has 85% support among the American people... Skinner Apr 2013 #5
That statistic I think has misled you and gun restrictionists. aikoaiko Apr 2013 #13
The Majority Of People Support Gun Control But It Is Not Important To Them? HangOnKids Apr 2013 #15
The Majority Of People Support Gun Control But It Is Not Important To Them? Yes sarisataka Apr 2013 #19
Sorry that poll is ridiculous. HangOnKids Apr 2013 #56
I will reply anyway- It wasn't a poll sarisataka Apr 2013 #59
Here's the Gallup poll done from 4/4 thru 4/7. premium Apr 2013 #16
So the vast majority is being held hostage by a small, heavily armed minority of fanatics? n/t ellisonz Apr 2013 #72
A motivated minority is having an impact, but that is how the Senate was designed. aikoaiko Apr 2013 #79
"I think a Toomey-Manchin like bill will pass soon" ellisonz Apr 2013 #84
Something like it will come around soon I think. aikoaiko Apr 2013 #86
Wow that wasn't poorly phrased at all... ellisonz Apr 2013 #87
We obviously disagree on many things, but incrementalism is your only hope. aikoaiko Apr 2013 #88
You're operating on the presumption that Congress is functional. ellisonz Apr 2013 #89
Ok, then its status quo on guns until then. aikoaiko Apr 2013 #90
We lost this debate because... CincyDem Apr 2013 #6
"WE" Really? None of the decision makers invited me to be part of "WE" HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #45
Yep. Sux to be we. CincyDem Apr 2013 #50
As a progressive democrat I'm tired of being blamed when my warnings go unheeded. HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #53
I didn't mean to imply your warnings should go unheeded CincyDem Apr 2013 #54
All those words can be boiled down to three letters: NRA MotherPetrie Apr 2013 #8
That 90% poll lancer78 Apr 2013 #9
And not only that.. supernaut Apr 2013 #21
Gosh Sherlock ... GeorgeGist Apr 2013 #81
There is more to it than that BethanyQuartz Apr 2013 #10
You're pro-third party and anti-gun control on DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND. DevonRex Apr 2013 #24
I'm pro-third party but eager for dems to run candidates who aren't repukes in blue BethanyQuartz Apr 2013 #28
They were nuked n/t ellisonz Apr 2013 #73
Do you know what did it? DevonRex Apr 2013 #91
No exact idea. ellisonz Apr 2013 #93
Your point about the hubris of DiFi is well made and she is not the only one ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #11
The purpose of this post is not to revisit Gun Control in this Congress, or the next. Savannahmann Apr 2013 #17
Education is also clearly called for ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #63
Not much used to "debating" right wingers, eh? Fumesucker Apr 2013 #20
Those are a small minority Savannahmann Apr 2013 #68
If you are expecting our politicians to be knowledgeable you might as well give up now Fumesucker Apr 2013 #70
In part. TheKentuckian Apr 2013 #22
I couldn't agree more, Kentuckian (from a fellow Kentuckian!) Bake Apr 2013 #51
Well said. beevul Apr 2013 #62
When you got 85% support for an issue nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #23
Oh bullshit. Zoeisright Apr 2013 #25
I tend to agree but would add what I think is one vital thing. gulliver Apr 2013 #26
No, we should have highlighted their supporters. Savannahmann Apr 2013 #33
These types of guys don't make great villains. gulliver Apr 2013 #40
Piffle. 99Forever Apr 2013 #27
The NRA was just as powerful before Savannahmann Apr 2013 #34
Hogwash. 99Forever Apr 2013 #36
Yes it is the argument or really education SpartanDem Apr 2013 #41
Save your NRA gibberish for someone else. 99Forever Apr 2013 #44
What aren't you buying? Did you even read the article SpartanDem Apr 2013 #48
Blah blah blah 99Forever Apr 2013 #49
We beat that statistic until it didn't matter Savannahmann Apr 2013 #57
Good grief... 99Forever Apr 2013 #61
These are irrational people who think they need to strap a gun or two on to venture out. Hoyt Apr 2013 #29
Actually, the MAJORITY voted yes in the Senate Uzair Apr 2013 #30
Yep. premium Apr 2013 #31
More stringent gun control failed because support fell. Skip Intro Apr 2013 #32
Exactly. Savannahmann Apr 2013 #35
And don't forget Bloomberg with his dumbass gun control ad premium Apr 2013 #38
It's beginning to look as if some of the RW are backing away Progressive dog Apr 2013 #37
This is about the filibuster, nothing more. Jennicut Apr 2013 #39
lost the debate? Doctor_J Apr 2013 #42
No one wants to, nor will they disarm themselves...... DeSwiss Apr 2013 #46
Your mistake is assuming that the opposition to gun control is intelligent and interested in DanTex Apr 2013 #47
+1 ellisonz Apr 2013 #74
This is like whack a mole Progressive dog Apr 2013 #52
If they keep repeating it, billh58 Apr 2013 #65
Let them defeat themselves. TheCowsCameHome Apr 2013 #55
That is a very good idea sarisataka Apr 2013 #60
Republicans fight for what they want. sendero Apr 2013 #58
Let me correct that billh58 Apr 2013 #66
So what? sendero Apr 2013 #67
Okey, dokey billh58 Apr 2013 #69
Good points, all well made kudzu22 Apr 2013 #64
My Friends Savannahmann Apr 2013 #71
When you talk about a "parade of victims" you marginalize the issue. ellisonz Apr 2013 #75
Then why didn't the elected representatives point that out? Savannahmann Apr 2013 #77
As has been pointed out many times in this thread to you... ellisonz Apr 2013 #85
If you are right, there is no hope. Savannahmann Apr 2013 #92
That debate was lost by the NRA threats in the upcoming election.. jonthebru Apr 2013 #76
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