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hunter

(38,303 posts)
32. Nice dream... but the math doesn't support it.
Tue May 15, 2018, 09:56 PM
May 2018

Adding even a few hours storage to "free" wind and solar power pushes the the cost per megawatt hour up through the roof.

The current Tesla "Power Wall" stores 13.5 kwhr and costs $5900. Optimistically that's enough to run a small window air conditioner (and nothing else in your home) for about 24 hours.

The basic problem doesn't go away with scale, it's the same for a private home or a regional electric grid. The sun doesn't always shine and the wind doesn't always blow. People off-the-grid tend to buy dirty fossil fuel generators as "backup" to their dream solar and wind systems and end up making a much bigger environmental mess than they would have if they just moved to the city. Urban and high density suburban living can have a surprisingly small environmental footprint.

Germany's ambitious wind and solar program has brought the price of electricity to about 35 cents a kilowatt hour for home and small business users, but it's a sleight of hand because heavy industry is exempt and use coal generated electricity at less than 5 cents a kilowatt hour. The problem is simple, if German industry had to pay for wind and solar energy they couldn't compete in world markets.

In places amicable to pumped hydro storage the cost of storage is about $150-$200 a megawatt hour and the lifetime of the plant is indefinite, provided climate change doesn't dry up the supply of water.

Big Lithium battery plants are about $200 a megawatt hour, and Tesla is aiming for $100, but the lifetime of batteries is limited and this does not include recycling costs. Last I heard, Tesla is claiming their batteries will go 5000 cycles before they reach 80% of their original capacity.

Lead acid batteries cost less initially but I don't know anyone who has had to care for them who doesn't loathe them, not to mention the extreme toxic lead problems they've caused in less developed nations where battery recycling technology is primitive and poisons entire communities.

Batteries become very problematic if they have to be replaced every ten years and stations have to install excess capacity to account for battery degradation.

Here's the thing to remember: None of these costly storage schemes are necessary if you have responsive gas and hydro power systems.

Batteries can compensate for less responsive power systems, but in such cases battery capacities are measured in minutes.

There are some interesting numbers and analysis here:

https://www.lazard.com/media/438042/lazard-levelized-cost-of-storage-v20.pdf

Amazing! Thanks for posting! Now if we can only get SWBTATTReg May 2018 #1
Having watched Kodak practically go out of business when digital came in Quixote1818 May 2018 #2
Right! Sophia4 May 2018 #8
It's too ironic to not note... blugbox May 2018 #24
Better yet, duforsure May 2018 #3
Absolutely stopwastingmymoney May 2018 #4
Excellent! I've got all energy star appliances and a well-insulated house. I'm looking forward diane in sf May 2018 #10
Me too. Sophia4 May 2018 #9
Fossil fuel extractors are the buggy whip manufacturers of the 21st century. procon May 2018 #5
K & R SunSeeker May 2018 #6
Renewables sarchasm May 2018 #7
Where's that snide one who always shows up all contemptuous of reports like this? NBachers May 2018 #11
They are probably too busy Eko May 2018 #12
The Internet WIN of the Day!!! madinmaryland May 2018 #25
Thanks! Eko May 2018 #26
You should post this in the Environment & Energy group Eko May 2018 #13
Wonderful news RandomAccess May 2018 #14
President Jimmy Carter put us on that path - Reagan, of course, kicked us off it. NBachers May 2018 #15
K & R VOX May 2018 #16
Waiting for Nuclear Naysayer (i.e. shill) reply in 3...2...1...(nt) NeoGreen May 2018 #17
Who would that be? NNadir May 2018 #22
Well now, Eko May 2018 #27
Looks like.. cannabis_flower May 2018 #18
Solar/wind will REALLY take off when they solve the storage problem packman May 2018 #19
A Little Off From What I've Seen From PJM modrepub May 2018 #20
Solar is really trending down. BlueJac May 2018 #21
nice chart Demovictory9 May 2018 #23
Wind and solar are heavily discounted because they are not reliable. hunter May 2018 #28
The Battery Will Kill Fossil Fuels--It's Only a Matter of Time, 3/8/18, Bloomberg.com progree May 2018 #29
Great link, thanks. grantcart May 2018 #30
Nice dream... but the math doesn't support it. hunter May 2018 #32
Covid data links progree Nov 2020 #33
Does the nuclear cost include decommissioning costs? BSdetect May 2018 #31
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»One Simple Chart Shows Wh...»Reply #32