Thoughts on “Sextremism”

[seabeyond]

So who are FEMEN, what even is ‘Sextremism’ (hint: It’s not the latest 50 shades book) and why am I bothering to spend my Sunday evening talking about them? Well – as far as Google tells me (though I could very well be incorrect), FEMEN is the only radical action group that claim to be ‘Sextremists’, taking feminism into a “new wave” because “classical feminism is dead” (according to a promo video concerning their ‘creative’ campaigns methods). Essentially, FEMEN use the fact that women’s bodies grab attention on the streets every day and take it to a new level: full on naked protest level. Now I’m all for freedom to dress however you want – slut-shaming for personal presentation being a pet peeve in my books – yet I find myself asking if nude women parading through the streets with painted slogans across their breasts such as “Muslim: Let’s get naked” and “go to war against patriarchy and dictatorship.” are really the best uses of the female body.

What perhaps annoys me the most about this group is the fact that in their promo video about campaigns they state that women need to use their bodies to grab attention in a new and more radical, provocative way; as if our voices count for less than our cup size when getting a point across. Surely that’s the opposite of feminism? The FEMEN official website proudly displays countless numbers of topless women with signs declaring how very free they are, yet I can’t help but notice they each look like something out of a L’Oreal advert: perfect hair, make up and slim tanned bodies – all to ‘grab attention in the name of feminism’ no doubt. I can’t help but feel that they’ve missed the point of objectification of women being a bad thing, that they’ve overshot it when they say they want to give attention to women’s rights and that they’ve crossed a boundary between ‘decent feminism’ and ‘that stuff we don’t want to be associated with any more’.

I mean who takes kindly to a bunch of topless women with flowers in their hair shouting abuse against the Catholic Church at the moment the Pope comes out to give an address? Yes, they actually did that. They also walked through a “predominantly Muslim” part of Paris painted with potentially very offensive slogans over their chests. Granted, sometimes these religions can give as good as they take, and some people say the Church and Islam even deserve a bit of feminist backlash after so much oppression ‘in the name of religion’ towards women. But exactly how far should that be taken? FEMEN – or indeed feminist that considers themselves a ‘Sextremist’ – needs to know that the ‘freedom’ they express by wearing no clothes and protesting is the same type of freedom that worshippers share and there needs to be a bit of peaceful ground between the two.

It’s simply unfair to tarnish feminism with radical and offensive messages like these Sextremists do. Perhaps this is why so many young women feel frightened that by calling themselves a feminist they put themselves in the same boat as FEMEN members, because those are the women that get the media attention. Don’t get me wrong – I’m very liberal, but topless model-like women running around and using their ‘greatest’ assets to get attention really doesn’t equate to the sort of feminism that the world needs. I think what FEMEN, and radical Sextremists need to remember is that, not all publicity is good publicity – especially when it comes to feminism.


http://community.feministing.com/2013/01/13/thoughts-on-sextremism/



a thought. we on du are "radical" feminists fuckin' up the movement because our "tone" is not sweet and submissive enough. or for the mere fact we have said something. yet the very same people that continually tell us this applaud this org and are all over it in their feminism. ya.

[Helen Reddy]

1. You mean THAT Feministing?

Feministing that uses a truckers mud flap silhouette of an unrealistic woman's body as their trademark?

[seabeyond]

2. ya. lol. i know. nt

[seabeyond]

5. thinking about it though, it seems they came with 3rd wave at a time we felt we could take ownership

of our sexuality in this manner. but, i have seen a strong shift in the last year. limbaugh with fluke made it clear this was not going to happen.

[In_The_Wind]

3. There really is no need to bare my breast to make a point.

[seabeyond]

7. nope. there is not. counterproductive. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

14. This is the same discussion that arises at Pride events over 'assless chaps' and drag.

The prudes hate that stuff, they are certain that the only expression that should be allowed is couples in sweater vests and khakis pushing a stroller because of 'what straights will think'.
Here is a clue: when you tell a guy he should not be in a Pride Parade in drag or in leather because of what others will say, you have objectified that man. He is just a body to be used as others wish it to be, not the instrument of self expression owned and controlled only by the individual.
The idea that people should use their own bodies only in ways approved by others is to objectify that person. They should not express themselves, but rather serve as a prop for the expressions of others.
The argument is one I have heard a thousand times. It does not convince me.

[seabeyond]

15. i think it is a chicken shit, lazy ass argument to throw out "prude" when discussions like this come

up.

there are very valid arguments against this type of protest. they are being expressed on here, in this thread. i am so fuckin tired of men getting away with going after MY sexuality because he does not like what i am saying. argue the points or not. that i can handle. attacking my sexuality and that being allowed on du is crap. and lazy. and childish. and bullying.

which is another argument why this type of demonstration hurt ALL women.

[Bluenorthwest]

19. The men who say that at Pride events are prudes. That's who I was talking about.

This is not about you. It is about the desire to control what others say and do. You are telling me how to talk about nuances at gay Pride events as if that was your right. It is not.
Those who want to tell others how to express themselves seek to use others as objects under control and I object to that.
I don't think there is any valid argument for attempting to control the way others express themselves.

[seabeyond]

21. you used it to compare to women speaking about this type demonstration BNW. it is not like we are

not continually attacked regarding our sexuality. jealous, frigid, prude, puritan, anti sex, ect....

you may not have purposely done it. i do not know. but, i believe there is intent.

i cam calling that out.

you nor anyone else have the right to try and shame me thru my sexuality because we may disagree on an issue.

[MadrasT]

26. "you nor anyone else have the right to try and shame me thru my sexuality...

...because we may disagree on an issue."

Spot. Fucking. On.

Prude-shaming is the same goddamn thing as slut-shaming and they are both bullshit.

My sexuality is not on the table for discussion.

Period.

[seabeyond]

27. one is allowed, one is not. one is cheered, one is condemmend. madonna/whore. nt

[octothorpe]

59. Don't you bring it up for discussion when you bring up other's use of their sexuality?

To me, it seems when you comment on other's use of their sexuality, then you open up the discussion about how you and other view sexuality. If I was to post an opinion about how I think people using their sexuality to make a point are bad for a cause, then I'd expect people to discuss my views and how they shape my opinion. I wouldn't be offended by it or feel that they should simply accept what I say without any sort of discussion (why else bring it up?)



*I'm not really sure how I feel about this whole thing yet, as it all seems situation dependent on what is being protested.

[seabeyond]

60. METHOD. discussing the METHOD. see how ineffective this is. cannot even get people to think beyond

the tits.

[octothorpe]

67. Isn't the method and the actual protest kinda intertwined in the case of Amina?

The protest being that others shouldn't be able to dictate if a women can or cannot have topless photos of herself taken and made public (or anything else) Why should others morals and beliefs be applied to her (or anyone)? That's why I have a hard time finding disagreement with her method. I agree with what she's trying to say and protest. Of course that's this specific situation as how I view it. There may be other situations in which it's clearly just a method to get attention and has nothing to do with the protest being made, and I'd probably agree with the stance that it's not necessarily helping.

[seabeyond]

70. no one is telling these women what they can or cannot do. METHOD. discussing how we see the effect

of this kind of demonstration. and again. you are talking about the bodies. i am talking about the results of this method of demonstration.

am i not allow to have an opinion on whether i think something is harmful or helpful to the movement? really? lot of women a lot of the time would be told to shut up if that were the case.

we can discuss if using make up or not is part of the patriarchy. that is not telling women not to use it.

we can discuss whether porn is harmful or not. that is not telling women not to do it.

we can discuss the effects of prostitution. and that is not telling women they are not allowed to do it.

if you cannot see a difference, i really have to believe that is purposeful, and really fabricating outrage.

[octothorpe]

72. I don't think you or anyone on this board are telling her and others what they can or cannot do

I was referring to the people the protest was directed at. They are the ones who want to dictate what she can and cannot do. They are the ones who treat who wish to treat her like property. I don't think her protests were directed toward people like you or people like me. We're on her side for the most part and support her rights to take pictures and be her own person. But her nudity didn't seem like nudity just for the sake of nudity. There was a reason behind it.

As for the effectiveness of her protests and others like them. I don't know. I'm actually bit cynical when it comes to the efficacy of any protests that don't have something more behind them that can cause real change. I don't think my mind has ever been changed because of a sign I read at a protest. But that being said, in the case of Amina, would have a more traditional approach been any more successful at getting the point across?

[Bluenorthwest]

32. Take Chuck Hagle's attack on Mr Homel for being seen with men dressed as nuns

He went on and on about Hormel being 'openly, aggressively gay'. We have Log Cabin Republicans at Pride events, is it ok with you if I criticize their crapola? I guess instead of 'prudes' I could have said 'conservatives' or 'conformists'. But like it or not there are diverse views on such things, and we have some who feel they should get to tell others how to be. This is a subject that others are experienced with in ways that might highlight the principles over the particulars.
It is my opinion that we each own and control our own bodies and can use them as we wish as a means of self expression, but we never get to co-opt another's body to use as a means of our expression. That is, if you don't want to wear chaps, don't. Which I don't. But if others want to, that's their choice, never mine. I can surely say 'I'd not wear that for a million' but I would never suggest that another should live as I want them to.
Express yourself. And let others do the same. It's that simple.

[seabeyond]

34. there is no argument with this post. adn what is ignored or missed, continually. i am arguing a

METHOD fo protest. the validity of that method and whether or not it is effective.

i am telling NO ONE what to do with their body.

if you and others continually shift the argument to where you are comfortable with to sit on the high horse, there is not a lot i can say. when what i post is actually addressed, tehn there can be a conversation.

[LanternWaste]

98. I see no attempt at controlling how others express themselves to further a collective goal

"I don't think there is any valid argument for attempting to control the way others express themselves...


I see no attempt at controlling how others express themselves to further a collective goal. I do however, see criticism how others express themselves to further a collective goal. Much as many people criticize PETA's unique way to reduce animal abuse is criticized, but not however, controlled.

Criticism. Control. Two wholly separate concepts

[whathehell]

29. Agree...It's just someone's value judgement, someone's "opinion", hardly a "fact". n/t

[redqueen]

18. No, that is not objectification. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

22. Yes it is.

'You must not freely express yourself you must use your self in ways that please me not in ways that please you'.

[redqueen]

28. No, that's disagreement. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

71. As long as it remains just that, a respectful statement of one's own views and choices

When it shifts into preaching about what the other should or must do it shimmers toward the world of status and control and the exploitation of others for one's own needs. Any suggestion that a person must suppress his or her own will and carry out the will of another person or group of people is an attempt to exploit that person. Perhaps a righteously motivated attempt. It is great to perhaps make a case to an artist and attempt to persuade them to change their modes by choice, but not to shame or bully or tell the artist that they are not their own person.
The discussion about 'how our community should present itself' goes on in many communities. By looking at those communities in which the particulars of this discussion do not apply I thought it might be possible to address the principles such discussions do have in common. Various communities have the 'should our people be dressing like that, talking like that' discussion. The LGBT community certainly has. I can think of several other communities that have and do go over the same thing. 'It shows us in a bad light when they do that stuff'. Does not really matter what stuff, or who the 'they' is. The question is is it right to expect others to behave as the group might wish in matters of self expression? Nudity, slang, droopy pants, chaps, smoking pot, someone is always telling somebody that if they do it, they are not being good representations of the community. I am just asking if it is really fair to ask others to represent something other than themselves. I sort of think that the very notion that what the other does is in any way my business is the foundation of all status and control injustices in the world. Why I might claim it is my business is perhaps not really important at all. If it is their body, it is theirs to use at they wish.
I just think great care and caution should accompany any version of 'don't do what you want, do what I want'. From anyone, to anyone, about anything. Because it is really a hell of a thing to ask of a person.

[seabeyond]

74. feminism thru individualism. it is dying. we are seeing how ineffective it is. there really is

such a thing as the greater good. as a democrat, we should all recognize that.

[redqueen]

75. So we on DU are "shimmering" toward objectifying conservatives and religious people

all day long, every day.

Interesting theory, which I do not agree with.

Another point is that I'm not saying topless protestors are making anyone else look bad. I'm simply saying that IMO the method is counterproductive, and that IMO they are not taking a huge part of patriarchy/misogyny into account.

[haikugal]

24. Yeah...

Funny and pretty much what I think.

on edit..
further reading indicates I've stepped in something, how very like me to do that. No insults intended.

[ismnotwasm]

49. Men have a different dynamic

Yes, even Gay men. I've been to drag shows with overweight full bearded men in drag, not giving a shit, standing next to a beautiful prima donna. And drag is what? Traditionally female Attire. I always thought drag shows were a something of a dichotomy, revealing as well as reviling and at the same time promoting the objectification of women, exposing as ridiculous imposed societal roles at the same time reinforcing them.

Leather says something different, of course.

Still, I remember reading an article a few years back talking about the loss of male Gay culture, as being Gay becomes more mainstream. The art and beauty borne out of rejection and pain. Something like that.


While I'm very sorry to hear about this, I don't agree it's the same discussion, the brutal suppression of homosexuality and the brutal and demeaning objectification of women are closely related, but NOT the same thing.

[redqueen]

4. I have read that FEMEN isn't solely made up of women with porn-compliant bodies...

I've never seen any pictures of these women, but it is interesting that according to this Blogger, FEMEN shows only the women with crowd-pleasing bodies on their site.

[seabeyond]

8. so they say. but, even if that is true then it just validates the argument that this style of

protest is a fail and that the use of womens body is purely for male entertainment, even if it is the medias fault that is the only image we get.

[redqueen]

10. Yep. Massive fail.

I'm trying to imagine some other oppressed group attempting to simultaneously kowtow to and protest against their oppressesors.

[haikugal]

6. Hmm.

I don't know. Didn't we protest by taking off our bras? I still hate bras. I don't have any negative reaction to them but I do remember a time I was perceived as a lesbian (long story) at a woman's meeting in California and was told the group was for 'women's rights' and didn't include lesbians. I was shocked on both counts. I'll have to think about this some more.

[seabeyond]

9. it is a small group of 20. i was not impressed a year ago. but what turned me completely off was

a demonstration in front of a creep Berlusconi.

he simply sneered and denegrated women further, putting them well in his "use, tool" place.

[haikugal]

12. Ick..

but I have to say I've endured the male "ick" factor and brutish behavior all my life, it's the male culture. Mad Men does a good job of showing it and as far as I can see it hasn't changed much. If you're attractive you get more attention and we are talking about them and their message. Getting naked was a sort of protest when I was young but then I was kind of a Hippy Chick. I used to think these people had some kind of hang up about nipples and having anything on a woman's body be free to move.

I haven't been to their website but it would be nice to see them include pictures of all female body types and ages. Has anyone posted to them on their site to bring this issue up?

[redqueen]

11. That oversimplification has become the myth that obscures the truth.

Women burned lots of examples of socially conditioned 'femininity'... make up, bras, heels, etc.

It wasn't about showing off our bodies for male approval, it was about no longer considering such approval as important.

There are so many groups of feminists, its hard to find a group that you click with. I've been told by some groups that I can't be anti porn or prostitution, because that means I hate sex workers.

Imagine if people told anti-war liberals that they hated soldiers. Oh, wait, that happens...

[haikugal]

16. I see your point...

however I don't think everyone who considered themselves feminist gave up makeup, heels etc. I'm not sure these women are doing this for male approval and I agree about what we did and why.

It does get crazy but I tend to be more inclusive I guess. Were I a young woman now I don't know what kind of physical expression my protest might take. It's a different time. We were considered 'rad' then with our various methods. Oversimplification or not I still haven't come to a conclusion about this group.

[redqueen]

17. sea posted a pic of men protesting in the nude

It was overwhelmingly older/old men. 40's to 60's. Almost all out of shape.

That this group chooses to publicize only young, fit women belies any claim that they aren't doing this for male approval.

[whathehell]

31. They didn't...I wear makeup...It's non-negotiable and I remember getting a dirty look at a feminist

conference way back in 1978 by another woman while I was putting it on in the women's room.

It didn't deter me in the least.

Hell, Susan Brownmiller, one of my favorite feminist writers, wears it...Of course, I've been wearing

it since I was 13, so that's hardly my reason, but Brownmiller is a first rate Feminist

Intellectual, in my book -- way more progressive than some others -- so I have no problem with it.

[niyad]

40. phyllis chesler refers to make-up as war paint. I cannot wear it, nothing political, just a severe

allergic reaction.

[haikugal]

54. LOL...

For those like myself who haven't read Ms Chesler here is a link for the interested...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Chesler

I thank you for making me aware of her I'll have to start reading her. I do wear makeup on occasion, always have...and I love shoes but prefer flats and bare feet. Guilty pleasures? LOL

[seabeyond]

58. i love my really high heel ankle boots....

with my jeans. lol

and i waer them cause i love the look, the feel, the height, the walk.

i do not apologize for that.

but... this is not for male entertainment or appreciation. i let that go a good decade ago. and FREEEEEEE. i got free. i know the difference.

[haikugal]

61. LOL some more!

Thanks for the smiles. I love the click, the sound of heels. When I was a kid I wore taps, I'm no ballerina I'm more a tap dancer and belly dance woman...

Sea, I know you know the difference...never doubt I appreciate your efforts.

[seabeyond]

62. yes. i even love the sound. lol. and i get a real sashe going back and forth. almost a dance.

i like to move to music even if in my head.

cool. and i wanted to say back to you... even in disagreement, that is cool. all in respect.

thank you

[haikugal]

64. Oh yeah....

Me too...got that swing. The black women I worked with swore I had some black blood because 'white women don't walk like that'....LOL

I tried to learn how to stroll but I'm too fiery to stroll...not in my nature. I want to get there!

It's mutual..back at you.

[ismnotwasm]

66. On that click

And just as an off topic aside, new women residents at the hospital often make that mistake when they're new at the hospital, and its a huge patient complaint. They figure it out pretty quick though..
I don't know if they hear the complaints or plain old running around exhaustion drives them to different footwear.


Other than that, click away

[haikugal]

69. Ileft the click behind with my youth..

I'm in stealth mode now.

[ismnotwasm]

76. I hear that

Barefoot, if I can get it. And most definitely NOT pregnant.

[haikugal]

81. LOL....love it!

[redqueen]

82. lol... stealth mode!

Love it!

[niyad]

93. I love heels, always have, always will. they are good for so many things. and, like you, I wear

them for myself, period.

[niyad]

91. you are most welcome. she is one remarkably brilliant person.

[whathehell]

55. Phyllis Chesler was at the conference in NY in 1978 I mentioned and

I don't know what she means by "war paint", whether it's positive or negative

or neutral, but, really, I think the decision to wear makeup is a personal one for individuals.

I couldn't believe it when I got an email (forget who from -- .some Feminist group -- asking me to

please email Amy Goodman from Democracy Now, because she'd started wearing eye liner (Oh the shame!)...I thought,

"Forget it -- I'm not a "bare-faced" feminist anyway, and I'm hardly going to tell

Amy Goodman whether or not to wear makeup". I thought it was silly, not to

mention intrusive.

[ismnotwasm]

77. I honestly don't care who wears makeup

Other than I wish more men would. Coming of age (20's)in the ''80's, I have makeup 'PTSD', (gawd that was a terrible look). so I've worn very little since.

One of my co-workers is a feminist who gets Botox. She's a delicate looking attractive women, with a bit of anxiety. I'm like, the least anxious person I know. We make each other nervous, although we're overcoming that--such different personalities.

She thought I would judge her for it. I think I've convinced her I don't give a shit.

[redqueen]

80. +1... men look good with eyeliner

This one guy got an acting gig and they dressed him up as a pirate for one bit, and he liked the way it looked so much he started wearing it regularly for a while he would explain why he was doing it, clearly conflicted... It was so cute

[CrispyQ]

84. I honestly don't care who wears makeup ... Other than I wish more men would.

It was years before the cosmetic companies came out with skin care for men. And even now, it's more of a sideline. I've seen men who could seriously benefit from a skin care routine. And I don't mean breakouts, just older men who have not cared for their skin, looking older than they are.

[niyad]

92. I am so glad I did not see that particular email--my response would have been rather nasty.

I think phyllis meant it as a kind of camouflage and a kind of armor, as well, so very much a positive.

My view is, whoever wants to wear it, or not wear it, it is absolutely none of my business. I have friends who cannot leave the house without a complete "face" on, and others who refuse to wear it, some who do on occasion, and me, who cannot wear it. Each person's individual choice, as far as I can see.

[whathehell]

94. Yeah, I thought that was really ridiculous.

Phyllis may be right..I don't know...In any case,

I completely agree that it's an entirely personal choice.

[redqueen]

78. I prefer to call it lady drag.

[niyad]

90. I like that, as well. people forget that there was a time men wore powdered wigs and lots of

makeup as a matter of course.

[ismnotwasm]

96. AND high heels

Good old days for male self decoration.

[seabeyond]

97. yes they did. and men still wear heels and higher heels but we all pretend it is not

the same, lol.

[seabeyond]

50. this is the thing, and i have told this story so often.

Last edited Tue Apr 2, 2013, 03:21 PM - Edit history (1)

(i do not know where your post is i want to address, so doing it here. you talking about free spirit young, and what you would do today)

i grew up in calif, late 70's, 80's. i was a competitive swimmer for a couple decades. we might as well have been naked. naked bodies, hours, daily, for years. we stripped down and skinny dipped. everyone had pools. we stripped down and went into the hot springs up at bishop, toward the mountains.

when it came to naked, we did naked. it was bodies. mere bodies.

what i see different today is it is not about naked. it is about ownership. and that is what i am protesting. victoria secret shows it perfectly.

up into the 90's it was a company allowing women ownership, for the first time, of their sexuality. it was all about women. it was all about the womans sexuality. in the 90's it switched to being mens ownership of womens sexuality. as our cultured switched to this also. girls gone wild mentality. instead of every strippin and a freedom of naked now it is women strippin for mens entertainment. teh women no longer have the ownership of their body and their sexuality.

look at the fetish tit thread. it is all about men. it is all about men and their oh so awesome sexuality. a womans sexuality is never even mentioned. that is what today is. the man has ownership of womens sexuality and we are not only on the back burner, our sexuality does not exist.

i think it is because they got afraid. i think men along the way got afraid of the power of a womans sexuality and need. i think they had to consciously dismiss womens sexuality and create theirs as all powerfull awesome, godlike, 24/7 because of fear.

and that is where i sit.

i do not want to repress woman. i think men did that. in the 90's and thru 2000's just the other side of the burkah. i want women free again. we had a small window of it. i know the awesomeness of it. i want nothing less.

[seabeyond]

52. ok girls... now show me you tits. says a male friend to young women on FB, demeaning these girls

decision to participate in this.

this reinforces what i am saying with this. girls decided to participate. a male friend... friend, they respect, is progressive says.... show me your tits...

and puts a stink on what they felt was a worthy cause. that is disrespect. adn whenever disrespect is a part of the answer.... you know it is wrong.

I am actually participating in this, as are many of my friends, and one of my other friends made an "ok, now girls, show your tits" comment or similar on one of the reminders I or a friend posted on my wall on facebook, I just said something like "yes, you know it" because it can be hard to read the friend that commented. He is sarcastic, and usually quite progressive, but it still really bothered me. I hear this all the time in WOW and Halo, but to hear it from a friend...

and this would be the men. so, why arent the men that are oh so enlightened, oh so feminists, oh so on our side not calling this trash out? because they to are participating in the "show me the tits". how is this different than girls gone wild with a bunch of little boys jumping up and down on their toes, clapping hands yelling boobies. and running around forums to let men know, we got boobies on du

[haikugal]

85. Nicely said...

[CrispyQ]

86. There was at least one other thread reporting the story, that didn't have the word

tits in the headline - or anywhere in the post or story. But of course, that thread sunk like a stone. I thought it was very telling about DU - the thread with the offensive word was the one that got the hits & made it to Greatest. And again, wouldn't it have been a different read if some of the women were overweight.

If you object that women are viewed & portrayed as mere tits & ass, then where is the logic in stripping to protest being nothing more than tits & ass? They are playing into the patriarchy. The men line up & say, 'Oh yes, we support feminism!' while they ogle & take photos & tell the rest of us to 'Show us your tits.'

Yes, what a great leap forward for women.

Sea, I would like to ask, what difference do you see in Victoria's Secret? Their advertising? The product? What's different?

[seabeyond]

87. the whole company shifted to men and the man gaze. tell your woman what you want her to wear.

back in the day, it use to be directed at the woman. let us be here for you to empower you, your sexuality.

now it is titillation for the man as the sell. not the woman. the best, for the woman. all about, the woman. the woman feeling sexy. it is about being sexy for the man.

[niyad]

13. goddess forfend that we should EVER do anything to offend the sensibilities of the patriarchy.

[haikugal]

20. Ain't that the truth!

The patriarchy has had a feminine face many times in my experience. I don't feel offended by their actions any more than I do about Code Pink. It takes courage to express a dissident opinion or to be 'different'. However, I probably should do more research to come to some decision on way or another...off I go.

[niyad]

23. I think about the fact that feminists have been told from the beginning not to be shrill, to be soft

and gentle and ladylike so that the men will listen to us. we see how far that has gotten us. frankly, I don't know what it will take. we are losing ground at such a rapid rate that extreme measures seem to be called for. what those measures should be, however, I honestly don't know.

[seabeyond]

25. own businesses. be on board. and when a company shows sexism... publically reject, quit, vilify.

$

i love what happened at the gaming convention.

richard took one for the team. but, we have to continue to make it loud, that the misogynist got her fired for doing what she had every right to do.

[upaloopa]

30. Back in the sixties women were in your face.

Get into the streets and make noise. Protest. Get women and girls of all ages together. Protest new anti women laws. Get on television on radio in the press write letters to the editor write letters to magazines be seen be heard.
As a man I feel what ever is good for my wife is good for me because we work together to make the life we share.

[niyad]

35. I was there in the sixties, and seventies, and. . I am still here, still doing the same things. as

that one sign says, "I cannot believe I am still having to protest this shit" As I said, we seem to be going backwards at an alarming rate, so clearly, the usual protests and actions are not working.

[upaloopa]

51. I was there too. Civil Rights Vietnam Women's movement

Occupy is the only thing I've seen in the last couple of years that in any way resembles the sixties.
During the election there was news of women voting against Repubs but I haven't seen much of anything since that. I guess I don't know where to look.

[Squinch]

33. I agree with the OP in its characterization of FEMEN but I see value in the FEMEN movement.

I see Western FEMEN more as a kind of radical performance art, and their work in that context has genius to it. There is collossal wit to the FEMEN movement as it is used in the Western culture.

I think it's no mistake that they are getting the attention and support of anti-feminists who mistakenly believe themselves to be feminists. The FEMEN performers are very slyly, but very intentionally, making fun of these same anti-feminists by saying, "Don't you see what an idiot you are to let me control your attention this way?" It's a way to point out the large group of people whose habitual response is "I support feminism and respect women as equals," when their actions and attitudes prove the opposite.

It is a razor's edge: they are pointing out the hypocracy of those who are paying attention to them because they are topless, and winking at the fact that those who support them mistakenly think they are supporting feminism. When you look at their messages ("Muslims: let's get naked" "Go to war against dictatorship&quot they seem designed not to be taken seriously. If they wore serious slogans, the whole tone of the movement would be different.

This, to me, seems to be pretty clearly tongue in cheek but in a really radical and multi-levelled way.

However, their movement, while fascinating to watch, does make fun of many of its proponents. That is a fatal flaw for any organization.

I could be completely mistaken in this, and these women might just want to be showing their bodies, but I don't think it's that simple.

And again, I am speaking of the movement as it is used in the Western culture. I am not commenting on Amina. I am too ignorant of Middle Eastern Muslim culture to feel like I can critique or even fully understand the meaning of her actions.

[seabeyond]

36. then really, by LOUDLY pointing it out here at du, i am the greater supporter, lol, than those that

are doing what you suggest and falling into line without thought.

isnt that a hoot.

i love thinking and exploring

[Squinch]

39. But YOU are what is referred to in the article as a "classical feminist." So am I.

While I do see art to their actions, I don't see a real political movement. You and I will be here talking to people and fighting with people and cajoling people, and doing the policy work, long after the adherents of FEMEN have caught on to the joke and walked away.

[seabeyond]

41. this is what i was thinking in the shower. they flash and every fuckin one else is doing the fuckin

legwork.

[Squinch]

43. LOL!

[Squinch]

47. Also, on a more serious note, as I say they are walking a razor's edge.

It does do a handy job of showing up the "faux feminists" but the fact that their message, as I read it, is so sly, it is easily missed. If it doesn't get across, they have just strengthened the thing they were trying to ridicule. AND again, I might be giving them credit for something that isn't there, and they might just think their bodies are neato billboards.

[seabeyond]

53. ya, see. i watch it continually being used as a tool against women, and in disrespect of women that

to me, universal law, lets me know it is wrong.

[geek tragedy]

37. Larry Flynt feminism.

You can combine "equal rights for women" with "show us your tits!"

Hence the appeal to the "feminism so as long as it suits me" men.

[seabeyond]

42. flynt recently made a statement about women in porn. telling them NOT to go into porn,

they are used up within 3 yrs.

cant find the quote anywhere now.

[geek tragedy]

44. He's never hidden the fact that his corporate empire

chews up women like the infamous meat grinder cover.

[seabeyond]

46. yup. this is true. as his defenders INSIST it is all good for the woman never able to even hear,

let alone acknowledge the harm

[ismnotwasm]

38. I'd like to see another kind

Women who are middle aged and overweight. I know a few who aren't afraid to take off their clothes--they simply know they'd be subject to ridicule in a way objectified young women aren't---only they are--- many Men look at make women and automatically start analyzing body parts--they don't give a shit about any 'cause' just he free show. Hell, women do the same thing-- she's too skinny, she's too fat, she doesn't shave her legs.

Blah.

I talk to various men about this shit, and they tell me. The first Time I Mentioned 'slutwalk' the response was --'where?!!!!'I explained what it was and what it stood for, and the response was a non-won't-look-me in the eye-committal grunt.


I have no problem with nudity to make a point, but these women aren't the revolutionaries they think they are, as anyone who knows the actually background of Pussy Riot knows. Unless, possibly they came out and claim separatism. That would be endlessly amusing, and a truly radical statement 'objectify this mother fucker, I don't want your sexist ass'

That being said, I think they are foolishly brave, and are from a European, not American culture and I hope NOT to find a Pussy Riot type background.

[seabeyond]

45. all this stuff. all this stuff is where i am at with this group.

when i see ultimately pussy riot was men, using women and womens sexuality once again, for their means and entertainment, i was so fuckin fuckin turned off.

watching men on du repeatedly using pussy.... so they could "get away with it" on du like little kids do with their mama. watching them do the same with this demonstration adn then run around saying, boobies, boobies on du. there are boobies. go look. du has boobies. like a little kid.

and they say we have issue with naked?

i ahve issue with their childish behavior about a serious issue.

[Sheldon Cooper]

56. I have little but contempt for women who strip and bare themselves to get out whatever message

they think they're getting out, at least in Western culture. And I don't give a shit if people don't like that, so spare us both the lecture, because I don't give even the tiniest fuck if you call me a frigid prude, or whatever the insult du jour is.

When, and only when, they start to use older women, complete with gray hair, saggy breasts, fat rolls, cellulite, and stretch marks, will I possibly give them any credence. Until then, it's just 'show the boys my titties time'. Look at me - I'm so radical! Bah.

[ismnotwasm]

63. I don't care what people say either.

Dumbassery abounds and if I worried about the names feminists are called, I'd be basing part of my self-worth on the word of total dumasses. No thank you, they can go kiss their collective asses.



BUT, I don't have contempt for these women, I do feel a little sorry for them though. Its how the nudity will be received in reality vs. how the perceive it will.

They'd be MORE effective if they brought out and promoted their older, flawed, scarred women, standing side by side with youth; that makes a statement of solidarity, and is a protective measure.

[Sheldon Cooper]

65. I have to apologize, ismnotwasm.

When I said 'spare us both the lecture' I wasn't referring to you specifically. I was directing that at the men who've graced our pages in the past few days to tell us how wrong we all are. So, please accept my apology for my clumsily worded message - you are one of my favorite people here.

And I do agree that the older flawed women could, might, make a stronger statement.

[ismnotwasm]

73. Oh, I didn't take it that way!

I'm not particularly sensitive--a flaw of mine actually-- I was agreeing with you, just kind of musing. I want strong young women to have a voice, I can see where they would reach 'naked' as a solution or a means to protest. It bothers me that liberal men, but liberal women especially don't recognize this as a loss of agency; of identity. It seems so clueless.

They become 'those protesting naked chicks' in the eyes of most.

Edit this; i see the Protest i thought was by Islamic women was at a Mosque, and the protesters are not part of the communities. (I saw some thread on the greatest page I didn't open singing their praises ) That is not helpful to Islamic communities.

And the sad truth is, if they were not presented within a certain standard of attractiveness the discussion would never have reached the proportions it did here. They would have been dismissed out of hand.

[CrispyQ]

48. In one of those threads I asked,

what if the women had been overweight? What would the world's reaction have been then? What about DU's reaction? It would be interesting, wouldn't it? No one wanted to go there, of course.

[seabeyond]

57. no one will fuckin go there. there is so much dishonesty thru out this whole thing, that it is

obvious the manipulation. but, if you do not fall for the manipulation, wow. attack.

[ismnotwasm]

68. I missed all of it

I had a rough work week.

But I was wondering if anyone had brought that up, and if if they did, if anybody took it up.

I'm not surprised it wasn't taken up, because it changes the conversation.

[One_Life_To_Give]

79. Sometimes you need a socket, other times a wrench

and occasionally a hammer.

I don't think there is ever one tool or tactic that is always right in every situation.
Going topless in the West seems counterproductive. Standing in Saudi Arabia walking 3 feet behind your chaperone I am not so sure.
What does it take to get thru to the typical Tunisian Man? (Short of putting a hand grenade up his butt)

I wouldn't suggest it be done here. But I don't know that it's not what is needed there.

[seabeyond]

83. then, when men use it as a weapon against women here, i would think the least we would do is

be on board calling it out. disrespect across the world or right here on our board feels the same.

[BainsBane]

88. So if you are older or have a body that isn't favored by the male gaze

you can't be a real feminist. What complete crap. There is a new thread in GD on Femen calling for a topless jihad. The list of likes displays the names of a number of men who opposes women's rights at every turn. I trashed the thread. If I say what I think about some of them I'll have another post hidden.

[seabeyond]

89. yes. and the majority of the thread, at this point,

is about .... boobies. go figure.

[MadrasT]

95. I will concede that it is effective...

...if your goal is to get people noticing and talking about your nakedness. If your actual point is somehow related to being naked, then OK.

If your actual point is anything else, it's going to be obscured by chatter about being naked.

Maybe we need to do it more. If there were so many naked people running around that nobody batted an eye, maybe THEN we could get down to actual issues instead of tittering about body parts.