This person has no arguments. Doesn't understand logic.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

Think I got hold of a troll named MFrohicke.

Shocked and stunned. How come none of the Christians have read their Bible that they love so much? They haven't read the parts I have.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022719040#post27

[Warpy]

1. Using it as a talisman and never readig it

are the ways they maintain their faith.

I know my mother's reaction when she finally read the bible, "That's whats been held over my head my whole life? That crock of shit?" I don't think my dad was ever able to guilt her into a church again.

So the answer to your question is "laughably few."

[ShadowLiberal]

11. Indeed, most bibles are made so cheaply they'll fall apart if you actually read it all

My older brother is a pastor (ironic isn't it, our parents having a very religious son who became a pastor, and another who became an atheist) and he says that almost all bibles are made so cheaply that they'll pretty much be ready for the garbage if you actually read the whole thing, because they fall apart that easily. I've even heard him say multiple times "I don't know what's sadder, that bible makers think so little of the bible that they do this, or the fact that most of the time they're probably right that whoever buys it won't read it".

That's part of why I think it's so ironic how religious people like to say and scream "this is a Christian nation" when most Christians have never read the whole bible, and large majorities disagree with church on policy issues. Not to mention a sizable number who only attend church services on special days like Easter or Christmas Eve services.

Compare that to centuries ago when copes of the bible were much rarer, as was being able to read. Some churches started weekly events where someone who could read would read aloud from the Church's bible for 2 or 3 hours, and continue from where they left off next week, if you attended every session for 3 years you could hear the entire bible. The events were so popular that churches couldn't fit everyone in the building for it, and they didn't exactly have microphones to magnify the voice of the reader either. And now, Christians couldn't care less about reading the bible, and many hold religious views that are directly contradicted in the bible.

Sounds like a lot of Agnostics pretending to be Christians to me. Or a lot of people who just don't care about religion period but call themselves Christians out of habit. I used to be that way myself until around when I turned 18.

[Warpy]

12. It sounds more like a bunch of folk religion to me

The "word of GAWD" is held up as something to swear on so folks will think you're telling the truth, something to stick your hand on when you make a promise, and something to smack outsiders over the head with. It's just not something any of them ever bothers to read, especially not the ones with the workbooks from babble study group that point them to chapters, they have to write down the verse. Those workbooks are heavy on Leviticus and Paul, with only a few side trips here and there into some of the stories.

I say they're not agnostics because no one is more certain of everything than one of those non readers who whips his babble out at every opportunity, clutching it to his chest, and generally being a pain in the ass over it.

None of them would ever consider starting at page one and reading it cover to cover. It's odd, but it seems reading it that way is somehow disrespectful to them, treating it like an ordinary book with ordinary words.

[ShadowLiberal]

18. You're right, perhaps a better way of describing them is 'Pale Christian'

You're right, agnostic doesn't really describe it, for most of them.

Perhaps something like 'Pale Christian' is a better way to describe most modern Christians. Since they're really just a shadow of their former self with how most Christians don't read the bible anymore, and disagree with their church/religion/holy book in so many political issues, all while claiming a lot of the time to represent their religion, or that the bible takes no stand on such issues.

Even modern church services are really just a shadow of it's former self. They used to last many hours, and the sermons used to be MUCH longer, whereas today most seminaries will say not to have sermons longer then 14 to 18 minutes because no one will be paying attention after that. At the church I used to go to when growing up a number of people had stop watches that they used to time the pastor whenever he did his sermon, and the pastor would frequently get over half a dozen complaints whenever his sermons slipped over the 20 minute mark.

What we're left with though is what you say, a lot of Christians who don't actually know much about their bible but insist they do, since they went to confirmation class, that should be good enough!


But I think there's more 'Christians' then you acknowledge who act like Christians in going to church on only important services, and getting their kids baptized, that deep down if they really thought about it critically and read/learned more of what's in the bible would conclude they aren't really Christians.

I was sort of that way myself at one point, and it was learning more about the bible from others (specially the religious right and the stuff they said about gays and abortions during the 2004 election) that got me to question my religion and conclude I wasn't a Christian, or a part of any other religion. Polls also showed during the 2004 election, when republicans politicized religion as part of Bush's reelection, that church attendance dropped across the nation, so I can't be the only one who had a reaction like this.

[Warpy]

19. I disagreed with you about calling them agnostics

but not about the mile wide, inch deep nature of their faith. Critical thinking might discourage some of them, but inertia, habit, and the fear of losing community are all powerful forces keeping them in the Christian camp.

[progressoid]

14. I hadn't thought about that regarding the quality of Bibles.

Of course, I haven't really looked that closely at one for a long time. The one I had as a kid was printed on onion paper. Leather cover. Really nice.

We also had nice Bibles in the church pews. I do work in churches occasionally and have noticed that almost none of them bibles in their pews. They have big, expensive, multi-media systems; but no bibles.

[AlbertCat]

24. lot of people who just don't care about religion period but call themselves Christians out of habit.

What Daniel Dennett calls "Belief in belief".

[FiveGoodMen]

2. Incredibly frustrating

That one will never listen.

[Apophis]

3. A delightful DUer called me an Islamaphobe this weekend

because I had the audacity to point out that, as a bisexual atheist, I could be put to death in many Islamic countries.

[Dan Ken]

9. Christians stand up for Muslims, their crazy beliefs are the same until

a crazy Muslim or Christian bombs something or shoots someone.

If it's a Muslim that commits it, Christians dump all over them, if it's a Christian that does it, it's a "lone wolf", and quickly dismissed.

The only "atheists" who do horrible things are the usual suspects, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, etc....(of course they were not, but who cares if you can blame something on a non-Christian).

[Manifestor_of_Light]

4. uh-huh.

And as a Unitarian Universalist, I pray "to whom it may concern".

Or at least that's the UU joke.

[Rob H.]

5. I like this:

I never see any Christian groups saying "Let's just throw out the hateful stuff Jesus taught". Christians seem to not know that the hateful scriptures exist.

A friend of mine got into an debate on Facebook with a Southern Baptist minister(!) who kept denying that there were Bible verses that not only justified slavery, but gave explicit instructions about who could be sold into slavery and how slaves were to be treated. Even when given chapter and verse, he still denied that that's what those verses meant!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

6. Thank you for your kind words.

They deny that those scriptures exist. Mental block. Cognitive dissonance.



Or they say "It's all in the old testament, not the new".

[Rob H.]

8. "...old testament, not the new"

Ugh, that's another defense/justification/rationalization that gets really old and it crops up way more often than it should.

[progressoid]

13. Yeah, the first time I heard that one, I was dumbfounded.

Apparently Gawd got it wrong in the old testament but he made it all better in the new or something.

[LostOne4Ever]

15. When they claim its in "old" testament

[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]Manifestor_of_Light said:[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]Or they say "It's all in the old testament, not the new".

Thats the time I like to bring this out:


[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]Matthew 5:17-5:20[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. Hitchens devoted an entire chapter to the New Testament, and frankly, he was pretty

polite about it. Could have been worse.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

7. Or the porn in ezekiel 23:20.

Porn, not the "Good Book".

[Curmudgeoness]

10. It has always seemed incredible to me...

these people will trample each other to buy the newest "Left Behind" books, and will read them with gusto. But they believe that the Bible was written by GOD, and they don't make the effort to read every word and read it over and over. Go figure.

[LostOne4Ever]

16. I think

I think its because there is a subgroup of them that want to be seen as GOOD Christians, faithfully devouring the new trendy book that reinforces the notion that they are "special."



The whole "hypocrites" who want to be "seen praying in the synagogues" schik that they don't know about because they never bothered to actually read Matthew.

[DetlefK]

17. Some people are so self-absorbed, they just don't bother to address the argument at hand.

I had a similar problem in another thread about a month ago:

A person had reacted to an assault in a way so over-the-top that she crossed the line from reasonable to illegal. I dared to have the opinion that laws hold no matter the noble intent, and I got a lot of negative attention for that.
The discussion turned nasty.
I demanded several times from another DUer to answer a clear question: Would he also count lethal response as justified in this case?

Never got an answer.

[LiberalAndProud]

20. You have to disregard he inconvenient and uncomfortable passages.

I did. You take from it what you will and leave the rest. For those who don't take a literal view of the Bible, that seems reasonable, and for those who do take a literal view of the Bible, that seems reasonable. At one time it seemed entirely reasonable to me. I can't explain that, but it was my experience.

I don't miss the cognitive dissonance. I really don't.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

21. Why should they be held up as a moral example?

A nomadic, ignorant tribe of Bronze Age goatherders??? Sometimes I use another word after "goat" but you get the idea....


I don't believe any of it. Lots of other ancient civilizations had far better morals than these guys.

I was raised a casual Presbyterian. Took two excellent religion courses at the Presbyterian college I graduated from. The prof was an amazing linguist. I've never met anyone else like him. Nature and Function of Religion, the intro course, blew my mind.

Then I took OT which was about the history of the 12 tribes and textual analysis of the J,E,D and P texts. Found out about the bible being a big mess ordered by Constantine at the Council of Nicaea.

But learning about the bible in college is BAD.

[LiberalAndProud]

22. Why? Beats me.

I think I had to look at maps with arrows and circles that illustrated the travels of the apostles and the dissemination of the Good News when I took confirmation classes. That explains it, right?

Or it could be that some very powerful men decided to convert the greater part of the world at the point of the sword several times over the course of our history. I tend to think this is the more likely reason. If St. Augustine had not lived as the Western Roman Empire crumbled, what course then? So many of us have a deep desire to believe that there is some greater power in control of the chaos that is our daily existence, especially in tumultuous and fearful times. If not this religion, then some other, I suppose.

At any rate, I was a un-casual Methodist. Church attendance was required, as was youth group, pot luck dinners, Sunday school, VBS and whatever other activity the church might have sponsored on any given day. I'm a PK. Over the course of years, disillusioned at the abuse of congregants by the institution for the sake of preserving the institution, I ended regular church attendance. Continuous indoctrination does play a role in maintaining the faith, which eroded over time. I credit the Pope and Palin with my final break. I was astonished at exactly how liberating that final realization. Amazing really.

"Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it." --> (demonstrably false Proverb)

[AlbertCat]

25. Lots of other ancient civilizations had far better morals than these guys.

Lots of other ancient civilizations had original content. The Bible and Abrahamic traditions contain not a single original idea that I can think of. It's a mish -mash of every single Indo-european idea thought up by someone else.