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rug

(82,333 posts)
Mon Apr 29, 2013, 01:37 PM Apr 2013

Finnish study finds that atheists might not be as "atheist" as they think they are when daring God

By Dakota O'Leary
On April 27, 2013 At 10:14 pm

When it comes to belief in God, a Finnish study by Marjaana Lindeman and Bethany Heywood et. Al., published in the peer reviewed International Journal for the Psychology of Religion suggests that atheists might not be the unbelievers they think they are when it comes to daring God to do terrible things to themselves or others close to them–in other words, atheists may be closet believers.

The study measured emotional responses through skin conductance, and it was found that atheists experienced the same level of emotional discomfort that believers did when saying statements that dared God to cause harm to themselves or others close to them. The study participants (atheists and believers) were chosen by answering an ad placed by the researchers in Skepsis (a Finnish skeptics society), and also from the People's Bible Society. The participants were divided into two groups as follows from the study:

We asked atheists (Studies 1 and 2) and religious individuals (Study 1) to verbally dare God to cause unpleasant events, like murders and illnesses to happen to themselves and their intimates. Atheists did not regard the statements as unpleasant as the religious participants did in their explicit self-report. The impact of conviction was strong as it explained 38% of the variance in the unpleasantness ratings. However, when the participants' emotional arousal was analyzed by their skin conductance level during their verbal dares, a different picture emerged.

In the first study, reading the provocations addressed to God increased atheists' emotional arousal more than reading neutral statements about such things as sleep and weather. Second, God statements resulted in equal tension among atheists as reading the offensive statements (e.g., “It's okay to kick a puppy in the face”). Third, this same pattern of results was obtained for religious individuals. The results indicate that compared to their conviction and responses on the self-report measure, atheists' implicit reactions to the God statements were more similar to the reactions of religious individuals.


http://www.goddiscussion.com/109300/finnish-study-finds-that-atheists-might-not-be-as-atheist-as-they-think-they-are-when-daring-god-to-do-terrible-things/

The study:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10508619.2013.771991
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Finnish study finds that atheists might not be as "atheist" as they think they are when daring God (Original Post) rug Apr 2013 OP
Oh brother vi5 Apr 2013 #1
Interesting... Mnemosyne Apr 2013 #2
Black cats... haikugal Apr 2013 #3
the orientation of the tea leaves in the interviewer's mug provided further support. unblock Apr 2013 #4
From this atheist's perspective edhopper Apr 2013 #5
Daring God LostOne4Ever Apr 2013 #6
Can I repeat one of George Carlin's stunts? backscatter712 Apr 2013 #7
I love Carlin! hrmjustin Apr 2013 #10
Wish he was still with us. AlbertCat Apr 2013 #14
Heart failure brought Carlin down unfortunately. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #15
Heart failure brought Carlin down unfortunately. AlbertCat Apr 2013 #16
Yes I do. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #17
Think of that unloaded gun in the drawer over there. You might put the barrel in your dimbear Apr 2013 #8
i don't think the 'god' (gun) part plays any significant role.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #13
Pascal's wager... goldent Apr 2013 #9
not really. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #12
Would be interesting if they replaced "God" with something like goldent Apr 2013 #19
The write up says a previous study compared StrayKat Apr 2013 #20
i think they tried too hard to correlate it to the wrong factors. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #11
Some quotes from Terry Pratchett's Small Gods: LongTomH Apr 2013 #18
It'd be interesting to know the upbringing of the atheists too muriel_volestrangler Apr 2013 #21
Worth noting the very strong tradition of ghosts in the Scandinavian countries and dimbear Apr 2013 #23
Isn't this just a response to maleficium? Bad Thoughts Apr 2013 #22

haikugal

(6,476 posts)
3. Black cats...
Mon Apr 29, 2013, 01:50 PM
Apr 2013

and stepping on cracks...it's all superstition. Tempting 'the fates' etc. Does that qualify as belief?

edhopper

(33,208 posts)
5. From this atheist's perspective
Mon Apr 29, 2013, 03:10 PM
Apr 2013

am I immune to unconscious or reflexive response to superstition? No.
Can I react to things I don't believe in? Yes.
But then I can use reason an logic to understand that these things I react to are not real.
Atheists are not automatons, we understand, better than many believers, how much human psychology can shape how we behave.
So rather than a Gotcha study, this confirms for me what I have felt. And by no means changes the convictions of atheists.

LostOne4Ever

(9,267 posts)
6. Daring God
Mon Apr 29, 2013, 05:08 PM
Apr 2013

So many things wrong with this.

First, you can divide atheists into two groups. The first group includes atheists that simply lack a belief in any god(s). In other words, they neither believe nor disbelieve in any gods. The other group actively believe there is no god. The first group would be less than thrilled about making a statement calling. The study only defines atheism as those who reject belief in god.

Think about it like this. You have never heard of



You neither believe or disbelieve in him. Would reading a statement daring this person to kill you and your entire family make you uncomfortable?

Or how about you actively believe chain letters are full of crap. This does not mean you might get not get distressed on getting one.


[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]http://www.goddiscussion.com/109300/finnish-study-finds-that-atheists-might-not-be-as-atheist-as-they-think-they-are-when-daring-god-to-do-terrible-things/ [div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]

Lindemann et. Al. concluded that the most provocative and simplest explanation for the findings is that "atheism may lack cognitive depth in that in line with Bering's (2006, 2010) argument, atheists’ explicit beliefs may differ from the implicit reactions that exist outside of conscious awareness.” In other words, one may intellectually think that they do not believe in God, but the head doesn't necessarily connect to the heart and that belief may be present without conscious awareness of it.


Something that takes an small paragraph to explain is NOT the simplest explanation.


[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]http://www.goddiscussion.com/109300/finnish-study-finds-that-atheists-might-not-be-as-atheist-as-they-think-they-are-when-daring-god-to-do-terrible-things/ [div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]
Moreover, the study noted that "Hunsberger and Altemeyer (2006) surveyed American atheists and found that 71 – 76% of them had once believed in God." Thus, prior belief may be influencing them to a certain degree.


Sounds more like Pavlovian conditioning to me if thats the case. Thats different than being a subconscious believer.


[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10508619.2013.771991[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]
However, atheists may have found using the word God stressful also because others, possibly their friends and family, do take God seriously and believe in his ability to affect the world. Third, although the participants did not rate the idea of God as the reason for the unpleasantness of the statements, appealing to God may nevertheless have been absurd or aversive to atheists, leading to a dissonance-related affect. Fourth, it is possible that although atheists did not currently believe in God, they may have been influenced by their own previous beliefs.


These seem more likely than the first reason AND SIMPLER than the above statement.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
7. Can I repeat one of George Carlin's stunts?
Mon Apr 29, 2013, 05:41 PM
Apr 2013

If God exists, may he strike me down

...

See. Nothing happened... wait, I've got a crick in one of my knees... wait, it went away.

Let's try again...

If God exists, may He strike YOU down!

...


No casualties Ralph?

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
14. Wish he was still with us.
Mon Apr 29, 2013, 10:29 PM
Apr 2013

He DID strike him down!



Maybe being atheists, and on top of being revolted by the made up actions of made up gods, they don't want to wish harm, imagined or real, to anybody.


What does the study have to say about religionists who spend 90% of their waking hours not even remotely concerned about god or what he expects of them. Or religionists who don't wait for a god to dispense justice or wisdom but take control of the situation themselves? Closeted atheists?

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
15. Heart failure brought Carlin down unfortunately.
Mon Apr 29, 2013, 10:32 PM
Apr 2013

But I would not be surprised if he is God's top comedian.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
16. Heart failure brought Carlin down unfortunately.
Mon Apr 29, 2013, 10:40 PM
Apr 2013

And "who" caused that? Huh? Huh???



(you do realize I'm being facetious, right?)

dimbear

(6,271 posts)
8. Think of that unloaded gun in the drawer over there. You might put the barrel in your
Mon Apr 29, 2013, 07:27 PM
Apr 2013

ear and pull the trigger without any harm at all. The fact that you don't proves the gun actually is loaded.

Right? Or maybe that you think it might possibly be loaded and you're not insane?



 

Phillip McCleod

(1,837 posts)
13. i don't think the 'god' (gun) part plays any significant role..
Mon Apr 29, 2013, 08:21 PM
Apr 2013

..it's all in the *wishing someone i care about ill part* imo. that by itself drowns 'god' out. doesn't matter if the god is loaded or not.

 

Phillip McCleod

(1,837 posts)
12. not really.
Mon Apr 29, 2013, 08:17 PM
Apr 2013

human beings have emotions. we have emotional attachments. ask someone to 'wish ill' on someone they love and the noise from the basic cognitive dissonance will drown out any meaningful measurements one might want to take. everyone is going to react more or less the same to that stimuli.. which is what the experiment found (go figure).

the hidden variable in this case is sitting right next to the egg on these scholars' faces.

goldent

(1,582 posts)
19. Would be interesting if they replaced "God" with something like
Tue Apr 30, 2013, 02:50 AM
Apr 2013

Daffy Duck to see if there was any difference (i.e. whether God gets a bigger reaction). Maybe they are milking the funding and are holding this back for their next paper

StrayKat

(570 posts)
20. The write up says a previous study compared
Tue Apr 30, 2013, 03:11 AM
Apr 2013

"I dare God. . ." to "I dare Santa Claus. . ."

Heywood (2010) conducted a study similar to the one described here, in which an analysis of vocal cues was performed to detect whether atheists experienced increased levels of emotional arousal when daring God to do terrible things. Both atheists and theists spoke with lower levels of intensity on God statements than on offensive statements or statements in which they dared Santa Claus instead of God, indicating that the God statements were more emotionally arousing.

 

Phillip McCleod

(1,837 posts)
11. i think they tried too hard to correlate it to the wrong factors.
Mon Apr 29, 2013, 08:13 PM
Apr 2013

there's a simpler explanation. someone asks me to say something nasty about one of my kids, experiment or no, and they damn-well better pay me like a lobbyist.

uh.. duh.. cognitive dissonance.

LongTomH

(8,636 posts)
18. Some quotes from Terry Pratchett's Small Gods:
Mon Apr 29, 2013, 11:58 PM
Apr 2013

From GoodReads:

“He says gods like to see an atheist around. Gives them something to aim at.”


From HJKeen.net:

"Gods didn’t mind atheists, if they were deep, hot, fiery atheists like Simony, who spend their whole life not believing, spend their whole life hating gods for not existing. That sort of atheism was a rock. It was nearly belief . . ."

..................................................................................................................

“Gods?” said Xeno. “We don’t bother with gods. Huh. Relics of an outmoded belief system, gods.”

There was a rumble of thunder from the clear evening sky.

“Except for Blind Io the Thunder God,” Xeno went on, his tone hardly changing.

....................................................................................................................

"Death paused. YOU HAVE PERHAPS HEARD THE PHRASE, he said, THAT HELL IS OTHER PEOPLE?

“Yes. Yes, of course.”

Death nodded. IN TIME, he said, YOU WILL LEARN THAT IT IS WRONG. "

.........................................................................................................................

“Will you go to hell if you have a drop of spirit?” he said.

“So it seems,” said Simony, absently. Then he noticed the flask. “Oh, you mean alcohol?”

.......................................................................................................................

"The captain frowned. “It’s a funny thing,” he said, “but why is it that the heathens and the barbarians seem to have the best places to go when they die?”

“A bit of a poser, that,” agreed the mate. “I s’pose it makes up for ’em . . . enjoying themselves all the time when they’re alive, too?” He looked puzzled. Now that he was dead, the whole thing sounded suspicious."

muriel_volestrangler

(101,154 posts)
21. It'd be interesting to know the upbringing of the atheists too
Tue Apr 30, 2013, 09:21 AM
Apr 2013

Were they brought up to believe, or have they never believed in 'God'? You could also test another supernatural being - eg a ghost, or a deity from a quite different religion - with both the atheists and believers.

dimbear

(6,271 posts)
23. Worth noting the very strong tradition of ghosts in the Scandinavian countries and
Tue Apr 30, 2013, 06:21 PM
Apr 2013

the often terribly violent nature of the ghosts. Those tales must have roots way back to Viking times.

They don't have the polite English lumber room type of ghosts.

Bad Thoughts

(2,514 posts)
22. Isn't this just a response to maleficium?
Tue Apr 30, 2013, 04:07 PM
Apr 2013

Perhaps there is an natural revulsion to the desire to see harm to others that has nothing to do with one's specific beliefs.

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