It is a shame that fundamentalists have turned so many off to Christianity.

[hrmjustin]

Some of the posts today on DU have made me sad because they see Christianity as warlike and plain discriminatory. Unfortunately Christians throughout these 2000 years have done things and preached things that make people feel this way. I just want people to know here that not all Christians are like the fundamentalists and bigots of our faith. Many of us are progressive people that want the best for the Children of God.

I am a Christian because I believe in the message of Jesus. I believe he gives us a new way to live. I believe by his death and resurrection all of humanity is freed from sin and death. I believe in a loving God. I believe that Jesus will come again in glory and bring peace and justice. I honestly believe these things. I believe that God wants us to love one another and be loving to all of God's Children.

Peace to you all!

[djean111]

1. Peace to you, too!

Just wanted you to know that I am an atheist solely because I do not believe.
All Christians could be absolutely fantastically wonderful - and I still would not believe.
So - the fundamentalists and bigots have nothing to do with my atheism in any way - to me, they are just dangerous hypocrites that have nothing to do with my non-belief.

[hlthe2b]

2. It used to be that most of my progressive friends who were similarly agnostic or atheists...

felt very comfortable "stripping away" the more miraculous biblical accounts of Jesus and viewing him as an important philosopher--one who has influenced countless important philosophers and figures throughout the history-- since then.

The RW Xians have so bastardized Christianity to the point that the above approach to viewing Jesus seems to be untenable for many peogressives. That's a real shame, IMO. Leftist, progressive, and Democratic Christians really need to reclaim Christianity away from these xian fundies.

[darkangel218]

3. Since this is the.religion group, im going to go ahead and say it.

Jesus taught to turn the other cheek. How is that ok? Humiliation and meekness rather than stand tall and fight for what's right?
Jesus doesn't want us to hate, anyone or anything. Then why did God make us capable of hate and do all kind of heineus crimes? To play games? Why.not create us perfect by his standards?
I will not bow to anyone who wants to play games with my existence. Like in the movie the Devils advocate: see but don't touch, touch but don't smell, smell but don't taste.

Well Sir, fuck that.

[hrmjustin]

5. I always did love your directness Darkangel!

Yes I put this in the religion group for debate.

[darkangel218]

7. Hope i didnt offend anyone. i tend to speak my mind

And often get in troubles because of it. :p

[hrmjustin]

8. No don't worry. I wanted debate, so that is why i put this in this forum.

You know I always liked you so no worries with me.

[darkangel218]

10. thanks Justin

You're really one of a kind.

[hrmjustin]

12. So are you that is why we get along.

[Freddie]

4. Agreed, thank you!

I am a liberal Christian and the Fundies have destroyed Christianity in the past 30 years or so. Check out "The Christian Left" on FB, loads of great stuff and a constant reminder that we do exist and there's probably more of us than we realize.

[hrmjustin]

6. Yes i do love to read the Christian left on Fb. They post great stuff.

[Promethean]

15. The Christian Left needs to become much louder then.

Thus far I have found two kinds of Christians in personal up front experiences (not over the internet that is). First are the vocal fundies. They have been described in this thread already.

The second I see are the quiet Christians. They go about living their life and don't preach every chance they get or filter everything through the lens of original sin. However if you confront them with the actions and claims of the vocal fundies they reflexively say "They are Christians and it is from the Bible." Basically they assume the fundies are good people and since it is from the Bible it is obviously right. From the perspective of someone who isn't religious that is absolutely horrifying. My conclusion is pretty obvious, Malevolence + Apathy = Disaster.

[Warpy]

9. I think so, too

Christians who get the point are among the best people I know.

Fundies have utterly missed the point, using their bibles as talismans and cherry picked quotes, mostly from the OT and Paul, to abuse their neighbors.

I agree with Gandhi, that Jesus was quite a laudable character but too many Christians are utterly unlike him--and unlikable.

[skepticscott]

19. All Christians cherry-pick

No Christians adhere to every single word and admonition in the Bible (not even those who claim to take the Bible literally), and all Christians adhere to some of them, just not all the same ones as their neighbor.

It makes no sense to classify one group as "better" Xstians or as more in tune with "god's word", especially since no one even really knows from the Bible exactly what words (if any) came from god and which ones were human inventions.

[Warpy]

20. If they try to, they get tired of it very quickly.

And yes, it does make sense to classify them according to how they treat the people around them.

At least I want to avoid the censorious nutcases who are bucking for sainthood, just like I try to avoid other flavor of walking asshole. They're impossible to be around.

[skepticscott]

22. It does make sense to classify

some as better people than others (a judgement that can be made with no resort to religion whatsoever), but not as "better" or "worse" Christians. For all we know, the fundies could be doing things much more the way god really wants.

[Warpy]

23. They're adhering to the OT Jehova

not that socialist wimp who preached tolerance in the NT.

[Phillip McCleod]

24. so do jews.. adhere to the OT YHWH i mean.

i don't think the distinction works that well to clarify 'better' or 'worse' christian.

it's all the same supposed 'god' so it's the ultimate cherry-pick to claim that NT depicts a 'better' morality when even jesus in the book said to obey 'the law' .. literally 'Torah'.

[skepticscott]

25. Not when they're adhering to the admonition

that women should be subservient to their husbands, they're not. Or a host of other charming things from the NT. All the same god, or so Jesus said. And who better than he would know? It's all cherry-picking...face it.

[Curmudgeoness]

11. We know that all Christians are not like the fundies.

All of my friends are Christians, or so they say and I am not going to dispute that. They are great people or I would not consider them as my friends.

But with that said, my first step toward atheism was more of a push, by fundamentalists. They started my questioning, and studying the Bible, and more questioning. I have to say that if the rabid Christians did not give me that push, I would have just gone on my way not paying enough attention to question. That was back when televangelists became popular years ago, and at this point, there is no going back. I have totally lost my faith. It will not be back. And you can blame the fundies.

[moobu2]

13. Sorry, but I wouldn't be any more attracted to Christianity if

Last edited Mon Apr 22, 2013, 10:47 PM - Edit history (1)

the fundamentalists just disappeared tomorrow. The fact that Christianity is just another religion based upon mythology like all the rest does turn me off. People who claim to believe things that are physically impossible turns me off too. If Fundamentalists shut up tomorrow I might not ever speak out negatively about Christianity, I guess maybe, but I wouldn't be turned on to Christianity just knowing there were some Liberal Christians or a lot or even all.

[Thinkingabout]

14. There is a real problem with many who claim to be Christian, when they think it is great to go into

a church and kill a doctor and then think the killer should not have to face trial and sentence. I am alarmed by namely the anti abortion groups who want forced births and then promote guns which kills our children and adults after birth. I get upset by the groups who really hate gays and think there is no limits to showing the hate. I have been taught since a small child how Jesus loved us, he showed us how to love others. In the US we are supposed to have religious freedoms but just step over their line and that freedom is yanked from others.

[msongs]

16. if you're not a christian you are going to hell when you die. what's to dislike about that? nt

[hrmjustin]

18. I don't believe in hell but i understand how you feel.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

17. Unfortunately, Christianity is what turned many of us off to Christianity

Not that we see it as all bad, but that the good things that can be found in Christianity (and religion in general) can be had without the mythology and magic. My sig line sort of sums it up for me.

Not that the fundies don't make it WAY worse...

[Skittles]

21. naw, more like doing them a favor

[AmBlue]

26. I was a Christian.

But I really cannot associate myself with the bigotry, hypocrisy and judgmental-ness (is that a word?) of so many who call themselves "Christian" anymore. It all sounds like the American Taliban to me. That so many Christians can associate themselves with the Republican Party, for instance, tells me that there is something very wrong with what is being taught in churches. There are far too many people talking the talk, and not walking the walk. So, since my religion has been virtually hijacked by so many self-righteous loons, it has caused me to re-examine the whole premise of organized religion and my own beliefs. I don't mean to offend anyone and I know there are good people who are religious. Many in my own family I count among them. I respect the right of all people to practice their own beliefs, but for me it's come to this: While I still think there is something greater at the core of life itself, I can no longer abide the man-created mandates and rituals, and all the religious folks and politicians trying to impose their beliefs and practices on American society. I just really cannot stomach it anymore. I'm done.

[AmBlue]

27. One more thing...

It's not just the bad behavior of Christians that gives Christianity a bad rep. The bible itself is fairly well ridiculous in its contradictions and the demands it makes of humans that would strive to do as God would have them do. If you want a good laugh and some refreshing perspective on this, check out this TED Talk by a fellow who decided to take a year of his life to try to live as the bible advises that we should. Literally.

A.J. Jacobs: My year of living biblically
http://www.ted.com/talks/a_j_jacobs_year_of_living_biblically.html

[LostOne4Ever]

28. Even if it weren't for the far right

Last edited Thu Apr 25, 2013, 06:27 AM - Edit history (1)

Even if it weren't for the far right I still would not have remained Catholic.

The far right did help push me away from Catholicism, but I think this Quote allegedly attributed to Mark Twain (I can't find the actual source) describes it best:


[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]To Quote Mark Twain:[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]

"Most people are bothered by those passages of Scripture they do not understand, but the passages that bother me are those I do understand."

I had many issues with many sections of the bible and even without the Right Wing I would have shifted to Deism and then to Agnosticism.

The moment that I learned of Deism it was like a light turned on. "THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE why have I never heard of it before!" And from there I slipped into my current Agnosticism.

Not having Right Wing Christians preaching hellfire and brimstone might have slowed down my deconversion, but it would not have stopped it.

[trotsky]

29. There have been (and still are) Christians right here on DU who are doing a fine job...

turning people off to Christianity. Thankfully most of the worst have ended up getting PPR'ed, but there are plenty still around.

I grew up in a fairly liberal ELCA church. Fundies didn't turn me off to Christianity - the illogic, the inconsistencies, the anti-human message, and the hypocrisy are among the many factors that convinced me god was a myth and religion was false.

"I believe that Jesus will come again in glory and bring peace and justice."

So basically, you are just like me about every other religion on earth - you believe they're all false. I just reject one more religion/god than you do.

[hrmjustin]

31. I never said they were false, I just don't believe in them.

Any religion or no religion has as any chance of being right as the next. I would never call any religion false.

[trotsky]

33. If you believe Jesus is returning some day,

then you are declaring other religions (which don't believe that) false. Pretty simple.

[hrmjustin]

34. Please do not put words in my mouth. You scolded me the other day for not listening to atheists.

Rightly so! Please listen to me when I say I do not call other religions false.

[trotsky]

35. I'm not putting words in your mouth.

You have stated what you believe. It contradicts with what most other religions teach. Muslims don't think Jesus is returning. Nor do Buddhists. Ergo, you are declaring those (and other) religions false. Otherwise you'd believe in them and not your religion.

[hrmjustin]

36. I believe in Christianity. I have friends that believe in other religions and i would never say

they believe in false religion. Who the hell am I to say that. What you believe in your life to get you through this life is your choice. Some ideas may be more believable than others but it is not my opinion that they are false religions.

Those are my words. Please do not say that I think they are false just because I do not believe in them.

[trotsky]

39. If you believe that Jesus is god and is going to return to the earth,

then you believe other religions which make different statements are wrong.

You don't have to voice (or type) the words "other religions are false!" - you are implying they are by voicing your approval for your particular beliefs.

I believe you are getting hung up on me accusing you of literally saying "All other religions are false!" - which I tell you right now, I am not doing.

What I'm saying is more like this: imagine you and your friend are rolling a die in a cup. You shake it, and turn the cup over on a table but keep the cup covering it. You state that you believe it's a 4. Your friend thinks it's a 3. By declaring you think it's a 4, you are saying that your friend is wrong because you don't think it's a 3 - even though you aren't expressly telling your friend, "YOU ARE WRONG!" Does that help?

[hrmjustin]

41. I understand what you were saying since your first post. I don't accept the doctrine of other

faiths. I do not however say they are absolutely wrong. Their guess is as good as mine, but yes I don't accept their doctrine.

[trotsky]

47. No, I don't think you understand at all.

But clearly we're at an impasse.

[hrmjustin]

49. What do you want me to say?

[okasha]

59. "Uncle."

nt

[edhopper]

30. Paging Bertrand Russell

Read:
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/jksadegh/A%20Good%20Atheist%20Secularist%20Skeptical%20Book%20Collection/Why%20I%20am%20Not%20a%20Christian%20-%20Bertrand%20Russell.pdf


Or listen:

[cleanhippie]

32. I don't think it's the fundies, it's the Christianity.

The teachings of Christianity, especially for younger people that only know the world from the the POV of the Technology and Information age, are far-removed from reality and the factual information about the world we live in.


The fundies come into play mainly because they are/have been enabled by the moderates who refuse to allow their beliefs to be questioned and who allow the fundies to base legislation and policy on religious beliefs, mostly because opposing that requires questioning those beliefs...

Nah, friend, it's not the fundies that are turning so many off of Christianity, it's the lack of plausibility in the claims that Christianity makes.

[Act_of_Reparation]

37. Did fundamentalist pagans drive you away from Thor?

I should think not.

[hrmjustin]

42. I never said all people were driven away by fundamentalists.

If you don't believe the religion than you just don't believe it. I was talking about those who have driven people from the faith.

[Act_of_Reparation]

51. Like who?

You may not mean all unbelievers, but by virtue of your post I take it you think a great many--if not the majority--were influenced by fundamentalism. If the responses you've received here are in any way generalizable to a wider population, I daresay you're overstating the fundamentalists' influence.

[gcomeau]

38. Nice sentiment...

"I am a Christian because I believe in the message of Jesus."

But do you really? Quick questions, you have a family? Kids? Try to provide for them? Plan for their future? That kind of thing?

[hrmjustin]

43. I am single. Yes I do believe in it. I would not say I did if I really didn't.

[gcomeau]

44. Well that makes it easier for you then!

No family to support simplifies the situation for you a great deal. So I trust that means you don't own any flat panel TV or anything like that? And I assume you're posting this from a library terminal or something and not your own personal computer? You know, having sold your possessions and given the money to the poor as Jesus said you should do if you wanted to be perfect? And you don't worry about little details like how to feed and clothe yourself because the Lord will provide and tomorrow will take care of itself?


Or did you perhaps mean you believe in *some* of Jesus's teachings? The more personally convenient and less massively impractical ones perhaps?

[hrmjustin]

45. Your Good!

I will admit I fall short of Jesus's teachings. but I try my best. But you have a good point.

[gcomeau]

46. Practice. ;)

I don't think you quite got my point though. For cripes sake do not "try your best" to follow ALL of Jesus's teachings. Some of them are stupid when applied in any context that does not involve the world coming to an end in fairly short order and everyone being whisked away to heaven. I would consider it silly for a single person to do so, and approaching criminally irresponsible for any parent to do so.

[Humanist_Activist]

40. I find the theological foundations of Christianity to be horrifying and illogical...

First, you have a murderous and genocidal god in Yahweh, a Caananite war god, no less, then, later, you have Jesus, his alleged son, who introduced Hell to the cosmology of Christianity, which is even worse, Yahweh, before this, could just kill you,, now he can torture you for eternity, oh and Jesus is marketed as the "nice one", which makes no sense to any honest reading of the New Testament.

Christianity is apocalyptic, inconsistent, its gods are schizophrenic, and its followers run the gambit from complete monsters to decent human beings. At best, Christianity has a neutral affect on human behavior, but typically I find it to have negative influences on Christians' behavior, and this isn't even accounting for fundamentalists.

[dimbear]

53. This is a very wrong interpretation. You appear to have looked at the original texts, as far as

they still exist, rather than accepting the many times refiltered, refined, diluted and highly sugared version that one absorbs in Sunday school.

In future keep in mind that God is exactly whatever the nice chap with the collection plate tells you that He is.



*smiley added reluctantly

[Zorra]

48. Could you explain the message of Jesus, in ten words or less?

Thanks!

[hrmjustin]

50. Love people and God!

[Zorra]

52. Spot on perfect, you got it in 4. Thanks! If people tell me they are Christians, and don't give me

that answer when I ask them that question, I know that they don't understand the nature of their professed belief.

Peace, Love, Happiness

[brooklynite]

54. They didn't turn me off...

I discount Christianity because it makes no rational sense.

[hrmjustin]

55. I agree it is not logical, but I still believe it.

[brooklynite]

56. Care to explain why?

[hrmjustin]

57. That is such a hard question.

All I can say is that my heart hears the call of God. I may not always do my best at answering well but I do try. I just hear the call. That is all I can really say. As I said it is not logical but based on faith.

[LiberalAndProud]

58. We probably have many things in common.

I come from a family who practiced progressive faith. I admire the teachings of Jesus and acknowledge that those teachings have informed my moral judgment. I share the prophets' outrage at the injustices in this world. However, virgin birth, resurrection, substitutional sacrifice, the second coming, Judgment Day and deities or deity ... these are tenets that I reject wholly. I find those who use their religion to justify their own world view tiresome. Faith comes in many flavors. You seem to believe your faith is more right and superior to those who you characterize as "fundamentalists and bigots of our faith". I suspect that the winner in the 'my god is bigger than your god' argument is the one who has the bigger army.

I am of the mind that our society and our planet would be much improved if we could relinquish belief in primitive mythologies in favor of rational thought.