Are Heaven and Hell the same?

[DetlefK]

This got me thinking:



So, if perfect happiness in Heaven requires God to get rid of our unhappiness, what do we loose?
We not only forget the unhappiness in our lives, but we also have to forget the unhappiness of others.

What about the unhappiness caused by God's wrath?
What about the firstborns of Egypt, what about the innocent bystanders he killed in his wager with Lucifer over Job's soul, what about killing Onan for refusing to fuck his dead brother's wife?
We would have to forget this as well.

So, consider one person in Heaven, knowing only God's love, not his wrath.
And consider another person in Hell, knowing only God's wrath, not his love. (Or letting him know God's love and God's wrath for better punishment, to show him what he has lost.)

How can we say that those in Heaven were closer to God, to God's word, to God's mercy, than those in Hell?
Neither of them gets the full view of God. The living are even closer to God than the dead, because they can experience and contemplate his whole being.

So, if going to Heaven does not give the ultimate spiritual fulfillment, the only reason left for doing so is the hedonistic pay-off.
And behaving properly only in return for a pay-off is a deeply amoral attitude.

[longship]

1. Bingo! And that's why Pascal's wager is a scam.

You could put it this way. If God only wants you to believe in Jesus, as Paul, John, and many Christians might say, professing so solely to achieve heavenly grace in spite of ones actual beliefs is a lie. And acting so solely to get to heaven is equally corrupt if one doesn't believe.

Of course, this is the old belief vs actions argument, which is never resolved.

[DetlefK]

2. A similar point turned me critical of religion, back in school.

In religion-class the teacher told us that those who go to church but don't do good deeds are better Christians than those who do good deeds but don't go to church.
That's when it struck me. This couldn't be right: Jesus was all about good deeds! He never demanded his followers to go to church and him going to the synagogue is neglected in the Bible. So why would following Jesus Christ's path make me a bad Christian?

That was the exact moment my estrangement from religion started.

[socialindependocrat]

3. What's real and what's not

I think you have to separate the stuff that's made up to keep people in line and
what's just made up.

I think the burning in hell is just a way to scare people into not doing bad things.

Some New age philosophy says that "The Universe" is nonjudgmental - This means
that there is no good and no bad. The judgment of good and bad come from people
while here on earth. Most people say "Well you can't just kill people." but really the
thing that makes killing distasteful is that the ego does not want to die - You don't
want to be terminated. Actually, I would think that, if someone really believed in God
and heaven that they would want to go and be with God in Heaven. I figure that to
most people, it's not such a sure thing and they don't want to chance it. This would
answer the question of why God let's little children die. Answer - because they already
are pure of heart and are deserving to go to heaven. You need to see Heaven as a
reward and not a punishment.

Why is the Old Testament God so pissy and the New Testament God turns nice?
If you watch Lewis Black he says the Jews can tell you about the Old Testament God.
and the Jews believe there is no heaven - So live life to the fullest.

Some believe that Heaven and Hell are the same but different for each person.
Suppose you had classical music playing all the time - Some people would be in
Heaven and others would be in Hell.

Some say that Heaven will be what you expect. This may mean that when you go
if you think you've been a bad person that you'll get what you expect and if you were
good you'll also, get what you expect. On Ghost Whisperer yesterday they showed a kid
who was a fan of concerts hearing the crowd and the music when he was ready to move
on. This would be cool. Think of the times you really loved about life and you get to
relive them over and over whenever you like.

I was raised a Congregationalist and our Sunday school teacher used to have us say
- God is Love - Love one another. That sums it up for me. If you always try to do good to
others then you never have to worry about any of the stuff you shouldn't be doing because
you always have it in your heart to do good. My friend who is a Baptist minister asked me
"Do you think it's as simple as that?" I guess 'cause if it was we wouldn't need ministers.

Now I have been around DU for 2 years or so and the Atheists around here can really make
some good points.

There's some thoughts to run with...

Have a great day!

[DetlefK]

4. Hell in the movies doesn't need fire.

For example, in the movie "God's Army" Lucifer says that Hell is just a place where you are far from God, where you can no longer hear his word.

And I remember an old movie, the title I forgot. It was black-and-white and in french.
A person dies and goes to hell, which just looks like the entrance-hall of an apartment-complex. Then he is guided towards an apartment, luxurious but otherwise normal. When he notices that he can't see himself in the mirror, the concierge asks: "What is there left to see?"
Then he is left alone.
Just he and his apartment.
For all of eternity.

[gcomeau]

11. Nitpick...

"I think the burning in hell is just a way to scare people into not doing bad things. "

Define "bad things" in the context of Christianity please.

If you mean sin... hell is not for people who sin, since one of Christianity's central premises is that that amounts to every single human who has ever lived. Hell is for people who don't believe what they are told to believe (that Jesus died and blah blah blah...). It is only for people who do "bad" things if your only definition of a bad thing is not being a Christian.

Murderers? Christian murderers are forgiven and in in heaven, non Christian murders in hell.
Rapists? Christian rapists are forgiven and in heaven, non Christian rapists are in hell.
Kid who stole a piece of bread one time to fend off starvation? Christian bread thief is forgiven and in heaven. Non Christian bread thief is in hell.

Etc...


In short, it is not used to compel morality. It is used to compel conversion to and adherence with doctrines that have absolutely nothing to do with morality.

[trotsky]

5. The really scary Christians are the ones who, when presented with this scenario...

say that when you're in heaven, you will understand why your loved ones MUST suffer eternally, and you will not only be OK with that, you will enjoy it as part of god's perfect plan.

These Christians exist, because I've met them.

[DetlefK]

6. Nice. Do they have the guts to actually say that out loud?

"Don't worry about me in the after-life. If you go to Hell, I will look down on you from Heaven and I will enjoy your suffering."

Next time they bring up this argument, challenge them to look their husband/wife/son/daughter into the eyes and to say exactly that three times.

[trotsky]

7. Absolutely, and I challenged one with that.

It was an online discussion I had a while back - asked him if he would truly be OK with his own child suffering forever. Yep. God's law, humans can't understand it but we will when we are in heaven.

[DetlefK]

8. That's what he CLAIMED he would say.

"Hey mom, I love God so much that I will enjoy your suffering if you go to Hell."
That's a whole different address.

[trotsky]

9. I guess you are better at reading people's minds than I am.

Or perhaps you underestimate the strength of religious conviction.

[DetlefK]

10. That brings me to a medical question:

Does that disinterest for the well-being of other people classify this person as a psychopath or as a sociopath?

I personally don't see a difference between being okay with a certain course of action now and knowing that I will be okay with the exact same course of action in the future.

[hrmjustin]

12. I just believe in Heaven but no hell.