Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 02:04 PM Apr 2013

Scientific fact vrs. religious faith?

Despite the often toxic form of many of these religious conversations, I have learned a few important things, particularly from the atheists who post here. For one thing, they despise the same sort of fundamentalist religion that I despise. Beyond that, they have lured me to take science much more seriously. I have long held that science is not the enemy of religion, science is the enemy of ignorance. No intelligent person, religious or non-religious can afford not to take science seriously.

But insofar as science is simply a collection of unalterable facts, no intelligent scientist would be caught dead trying to affirm that one. The other day in a conversation with a sub-atomic physicist, he suggested that the scientific community is always involved in convictions of things not provable--that's called faith. Right now, he tells me, the debate between Einsteinian relativity and quantum mechanics is raging. Both cannot be right. Advocates of both claim factual knowledge, but are really talking about faithful conclusions based on unprovable faith claims.

It has always been so when science is at its best. Cosmologists were certain that Ptolemy was right. And then they were certain Copernicus was right. Later they were sure that Newton was right and that the universe is a collection of parts. Along come a new generation of scientists convinced that the universe is one giant interconnected cosmic web and the Newtonians had it wrong. It is now clear to the best scientific minds that no one can assume to know incontrovertible facts, and that every observation of a natural phenomenon is conditioned by the agent that observes it. Is is a wave, or is it a particle? And much more.

Any religionist who says, "I have the facts," is in serious trouble. We in the religious world rely on trust without knowing for certain--as Paul says, "we see in a very dim mirror." All good scientists are in the same boat. Those on either side who won't admit it are subjects of ridicule. In science and in religion, a good supply of humility is a necessary virtue.

33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Scientific fact vrs. religious faith? (Original Post) Thats my opinion Apr 2013 OP
A scientist can generally tell you what facts would change their mind about a theory. trotsky Apr 2013 #1
except humility in a scientific dispute is honored as proper ChairmanAgnostic Apr 2013 #2
As long as you keep identifying religion with fundamentalism Thats my opinion Apr 2013 #4
I think that's why he says "fundie religions" EvolveOrConvolve Apr 2013 #13
Scientific Theories are models of reality... Ron Obvious Apr 2013 #3
You last major paragraph is on target. Thats my opinion Apr 2013 #6
OK. Ron Obvious Apr 2013 #10
Science is NOT "simply a collection of unalterable facts." cleanhippie Apr 2013 #5
No really it is. They are all in The Big Book of Unalterable Science Facts. Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #17
Few points... gcomeau Apr 2013 #7
Yours is a very helpful response. Thats my opinion Apr 2013 #9
I would just point out... gcomeau Apr 2013 #11
Now why are you complaining? skepticscott Apr 2013 #14
You made it through the first paragraph ok skepticscott Apr 2013 #8
I had forgotten about that gem. trotsky Apr 2013 #12
The debate between relativity and QM is "raging" you say? dimbear Apr 2013 #15
I'm just reporting how an outstanding subatomic scientist sees it. Thats my opinion Apr 2013 #18
Let me give you the best answer to another question your raise, one which may sound a little dimbear Apr 2013 #20
Ha Ha But scientists report that both are correct. nt. Thats my opinion Apr 2013 #24
You really, really need to read this link that skepticscott provided: trotsky Apr 2013 #25
What are the bets? skepticscott Apr 2013 #29
No chance he reads it. trotsky Apr 2013 #30
If you're going to Ha Ha, Charles skepticscott Apr 2013 #28
I suspect you misunderstood him. gcomeau Apr 2013 #23
OMG Charles skepticscott Apr 2013 #31
Faith is commitment to a position with no evidence Lordquinton Apr 2013 #32
I think "faith" is the wrong word to use goldent Apr 2013 #16
Science seems clear Thats my opinion Apr 2013 #19
Which is why fundamental scientific theories skepticscott Apr 2013 #21
" Cosmologists were certain that Ptolemy was right. And then they were certain Copernicus was right. edhopper Apr 2013 #22
Well, I know of no raging debate between QM and relativity. longship Apr 2013 #26
Sorry, Charles...there is no "raging debate" skepticscott Apr 2013 #27
It looks like your friend, the physicist, knew what he was talking about. Jim__ Apr 2013 #33

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
1. A scientist can generally tell you what facts would change their mind about a theory.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 02:10 PM
Apr 2013

What facts would change your mind about being a Christian, and perhaps cause you to choose a different religion, or become an atheist?

ChairmanAgnostic

(28,017 posts)
2. except humility in a scientific dispute is honored as proper
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 02:11 PM
Apr 2013

and rational understanding that your theory may be all wet.

Humility in fundie religions only applies to the sheeple getting ordered to ignore reality and rely solely on faith. Certainly not to those issuing the orders.

Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
4. As long as you keep identifying religion with fundamentalism
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:50 PM
Apr 2013

neither you nor anybody on either side will be able to think outside the boxes of either religious orthodoxy or the passion to disprove it.

 

Ron Obvious

(6,261 posts)
3. Scientific Theories are models of reality...
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 02:21 PM
Apr 2013

Faith doesn't enter into it. When theories collide, the winner will be the one best supported by the evidence. This happens all the time, and it is in fact, how science advances our knowledge.

When one model emerges triumphant, the former adherents of the other theory will accept it and not go off to form a new branch of science. Again, no faith involved.

Most scientists and science generally love finding out their understanding was incomplete and welcome being challenged on the facts. I don't know anybody who expresses certainty.

The scientific method is all about removing the human bias, whether in cognition or cultural matters, so that experiments done by me here in the US will yield the same result no matters who carry them out or where they're carried out. Faith is in fact the exact opposite of the scientific method, and hampers inquiry.

Saying "God did it" is not a valid answer to any question, and worse than the scientist's admission of ignorance, it really means "I don't know and I won't bother to find out about it either, because the answer might upset me".

Science has always been more humble than religion in my opinion. Nothing is certain.

Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
6. You last major paragraph is on target.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:59 PM
Apr 2013

In contemporary theology nobody says "God did it and that settles it."
You are not commenting on my post. You are fighting off some narrow view of religion that I do not represent.

I am always curious in my posts why so many commentators need to respond to some other notion of religion, which I do not share, and not responding to what I have said--which is the main stream of modern theological inquiry. But then fundamentalism is a much easier target.

 

Ron Obvious

(6,261 posts)
10. OK.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:28 PM
Apr 2013

I'm not really sure what you meant then. It seemed like you were saying that scientific knowledge involved faith in it being correct, but I may have been too quick to jump on that. If you're saying we should all keep an open mind and be humble because we're all still essentially mostly ignorant and future generations will likely laugh at some of the things we believe, then we're in full agreement.

I must confess I don't understand religious faith. I wasn't brought up in it, and neither were my parents. I'd be willing to accept it a blindness on my part, if I saw some sort of objective proof that it gave believers anything that I lack. A colourblind person will be convinced of his condition because other people are clearly seeing something they're not, and they're always in agreement. No so with faith. On what basis can a fruitful discussion even take place when the issue is framed in personal experience and subjective feelings?

Religious liberals are harder to debate because they never seem to take a position on what exactly they do believe so that it can be discussed.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
5. Science is NOT "simply a collection of unalterable facts."
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:52 PM
Apr 2013

It's a collection of directly observable facts about the universe we live in. If we cannot be honest about why science actually is, how can we have an honest discussion?

An scientific conjecture based on the facts already known is not faith. It's hypothesis.

You aptly demonstrate how science allows for change as new facts and understanding come in. Does religion do that? What things that religion had claimed to know has changed with the addition of new facts about the world we live in?

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
7. Few points...
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:01 PM
Apr 2013

The reason that science is the enemy of ignorance is because it enforces a methodology for evaluating evidence that does not allow ignorance to survive where it is applied.

There are minor differences in how that methodology can be described but in broad strokes it involves:

1. Identify subject of inquiry
2. Study/Observe
3. Construct an explanatory hypothesis.
4. Test. (Seriously, brutally, rigorously and repeatedly test)
5. Evaluate results for pass/fail
6. Publish (and subject your results to the review of your peers)
7. Revise hypothesis if necessary.
8. Repeat


Step 4, the test phase, is where your claim that science is not the enemy of religion runs into problems. Science holds that explanatory hypotheses MUST be testable. It does so for good reason, if a hypothesis can't be tested it isn't actually explaining anything whatsoever. It is making no contribution to your knowledge base, it has no more value than spinning a random fairy tale.

Hypotheses which cannot be subjected to testing are also referred to as "unfalsifiable" hypotheses. Science rejects them.

Statements like "God exists" are unfalsifiable hypotheses. There is no possible hypothetical manner in which they can be meaningfully tested because there can exist no test outcome that could not be explained away by "that happened because God...".

One big recent argument in scientific circles has been whether string theory was falsifiable or not. People are so seriously concerned with that debate because if the answer is "it's not" then string theory is dead. So people who favor string theory spend a lot of time trying very hard to establish falsifiability criteria for it.


That all also has bearing on the "both sides have their faith adherents" aspect of your post. Yes, there are some scientists who hold unjustifiable convictions about their hypotheses based on faith. The difference, and this is a HUGE difference, is that the entire scientific method is designed to wring those people out, whereas the entire religious framework is designed to encourage them.



Now there are apologists who try and get around this conflict by appealing to things like Gould's "non overlapping magesteria" but that's just sticking a new label on our old friend special pleading. "My hypothesis is special so it doesn't have to play by the same rules as everyone else's hypotheses... cause I said so."

Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
9. Yours is a very helpful response.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:25 PM
Apr 2013

I agree with and applaud how you defined scientific inquiry. And you point out how it is not exactly like other disciplines: philosophy, theology, social sciences, psychology, the arts etc. I trust science, the way you have described it, to do what it does within its own boundaries. I do not trust it to stand in judgement on the other disciplines, which is what you do in the last sentence of your penultimate paragraph ending in "whereas the entire religious framework is designed to encourage it."

I will let you define your discipline, and would be happy to have you let me define mine

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
11. I would just point out...
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:41 PM
Apr 2013
I do not trust it to stand in judgement on the other disciplines


...that the scientific method doesn't concern itself with "disciplines". It deals with data and the explanatory frameworks that encompass that data. And data is data regardless of what "discipline" is generating it or making statements about it. And a hypothesis is a hypothesis regardless of the person generating it or what "discipline" they hold themselves to be a member of.


To claim anything else is, I repeat, invoking Special Pleading. If you accept that the scientific method is valid, then it's valid. Not "it's valid except where I don't want it sticking its nose in because it results in unpleasant conclusions".
 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
14. Now why are you complaining?
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 08:12 PM
Apr 2013

After all, you got a Very Helpful Response (r) Award. That's right up there with a Thoughtful and Intelligent Post (r) Award and a Great Read! (r) Award.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
8. You made it through the first paragraph ok
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:12 PM
Apr 2013

But after that, there's so much wrong here that it's hard to know where to start.

But you might try reading The Relativity of Wrong:

http://hermiene.net/essays-trans/relativity_of_wrong.html

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
12. I had forgotten about that gem.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:55 PM
Apr 2013

It's so utterly fantastic at smacking down the "scientists have been wrong!" claims like we find in the OP.

dimbear

(6,271 posts)
15. The debate between relativity and QM is "raging" you say?
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 08:13 PM
Apr 2013

Or perhaps the topic of quiet discussions in faculty lounges and student unions? Folk have known since the 1930s or so that relativity and QM aren't consistent when both are taken to extremes and unwisely attempt to be complete theories of everything. Each is the best (presently) available theory in the realm to which it was intended, and each is of the most reliable and accurate tools available to science.

I don't think any scientist believes either of them as a matter of faith. (It would be a matter of interest to present counterexamples. Name a scientist who accepts either as a complete whole exclusively.) Faith doesn't enter into the discussion. Both these theories have stood up to rigorous experimental verification, repeatably and on demand, under peer review, after the expenditure of billions of dollars on high tech gadgets. One begins to see why faith has skedaddled from the arena.
Nothing stops a scientist from defending one theory or the other as a matter of vanity, habit, provenance or national pride. Just not faith.



Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
18. I'm just reporting how an outstanding subatomic scientist sees it.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:52 AM
Apr 2013

A raging debate not, a quiet discussion in a faculty lounge, are his words. Each side believes in its own findings. i do not see that as negative, but honest dialogue. Faith is a commitment to a position based on what evidence is at hand.

dimbear

(6,271 posts)
20. Let me give you the best answer to another question your raise, one which may sound a little
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 04:16 AM
Apr 2013

paradoxical. You ask whether it is a wave or a particle, an ancient quarrel in physics. The best answer is 'no.' The two competing descriptions must both be wrong, or else one would have won out over the other.

There's a lesson there for the vying religions of the world.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
29. What are the bets?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 07:11 PM
Apr 2013

That he won't read it? Or that he'll read it, but never admit that he learned anything? Or read it and come back to say what an arrogant and condescending person Asimov was?

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
28. If you're going to Ha Ha, Charles
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 07:10 PM
Apr 2013

you might first want to have a teensy clue what you're talking about. You don't. You don't even have a grasp of what your "sub-atomic physicist" friends spoon feed you.

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
23. I suspect you misunderstood him.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 11:29 AM
Apr 2013

Or, your understanding of him being outstanding in that field is incorrect... take your pick.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
31. OMG Charles
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 09:33 PM
Apr 2013

Do you just make this stuff up out of thin air? Religious faith is the antithesis of evidence-based thinking...that's why it's FAITH!!

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
32. Faith is commitment to a position with no evidence
Sat Apr 6, 2013, 10:05 PM
Apr 2013

When you have evidence you no longer have faith, even the slightest actual proof removes faith. I don't have faith in my friends, I have years of tested experience that I can rely on to lead me to believe they will act in a way I predict, that's science.

goldent

(1,582 posts)
16. I think "faith" is the wrong word to use
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 08:41 PM
Apr 2013

for scientists who side with a particular theory, although there is the element of believing in a particular point of view based on a hunch, or some aesthetic aspect of the theory.

In practice, people who spend a lot of time in a particular area get attached to theories (schools of thought, etc) because they have a lot of time invested in it, and possibly are part of a group getting funding to work in that direction. There is also a wee bit of ego involved .

Scientists also have a remarkable ability to ignore or casually brush aside weaknesses in what they are working on.

So there are some similarities with religion.

I am not criticizing the way research is done, because the sometimes irrational and unjustifiable support for a particular theory is needed to make sure the best answers are found in the end.

Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
19. Science seems clear
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:55 AM
Apr 2013

that every observation is conditioned by the observer. So pure objectivity is not currently a scientific axiom.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
21. Which is why fundamental scientific theories
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 06:13 AM
Apr 2013

are never based on the observations of one person, or one group of people. They are based on observations of many, many people, made in different places and at different times and in different ways, made over and over and over, so that the biases of any one individual are not a factor.

Really, Charles...you need to stop trying to comment on science until you have at least a basic grasp of how it actually works (not just your misbegotten understanding of what others feed you). And you especially need to get over your desire to paint science as just another faith-based "religion". The irony is that in doing so, you're committing the same sin that accuse others of committing with regard to religion: willful and grievous misrepresentation.

edhopper

(33,479 posts)
22. " Cosmologists were certain that Ptolemy was right. And then they were certain Copernicus was right.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 09:20 AM
Apr 2013

Really? Which Cosmologist? What experiments and observations did they use? What peer review journals did they publish in? What part of the scientific method was used to reach their conclusion.
Tell us how before Galileo these Cosmologist arrived at their theories? (you do understand how his turning a telescope to the heavens revolutionized science?)
Are you saying the Copernican model of the solar system is not reality and might be overturned?
The problem is you don't understated the difference between modern science and theology.
This weak, absurd argument has been made may times, and has always been found woefully wanting.

longship

(40,416 posts)
26. Well, I know of no raging debate between QM and relativity.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:38 PM
Apr 2013

I don't know where your friend gets this idea. If it's true, it apparently has not percolated up into science reportage. In fact, the standard model, the quantum field theory that explains three of the four known universal forces, is consistent with both relativity and quantum theories. Of course, one could argue that general relativity, the current theory of gravity is not a quantum theory and therefore is somehow inconsistent with the latter.

Yet, I don't think any responsible theoretical physicist would describe this situation as an either/or problem. For instance, we know that general relativity breaks down within a black hole, and generally in any domain where quantum effects dominate.

The inconsistencies between general relativity and quantum field theory are because general relativity is a classical -- i.e., non-quantum -- theory. Few scientists would doubt that there should be a quantum form of gravitational theory. Such a theory is extremely difficult to find because of the scale of the forces. Gravitation is so profoundly weak when compared to the other forces that it is very difficult to merge them. Attempts to do so result in all sorts of mathematical inconsistencies.

But nobody really thinks that relativity and quantum are something like two different ways of looking at nature. The universe appears to be a place where both quantum and relativity effects exist.

At least that's the way many scientists see it, AFAIK.

Thanks for your post.


on edit: I also disagree with your characterization of science as a collection of facts. That is just not true. Science is a methodology. The facts are the data the methodology gathers. The theories are explanations of the data. (Putting it simply.)

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
27. Sorry, Charles...there is no "raging debate"
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 05:52 PM
Apr 2013

between relativity and quantum mechanics. You've either grossly misrepresented your conversant or grossly misrepresented what he said. Both of those theories have been tested against observable reality uncounted times and in numerous ways, and have been found to conform to an incredibly high degree. So high, in fact, that the chances of either of them being fundamentally wrong are so astronomically small as to not even be worth considering. The "debate" is over how to reconcile the two theories in the areas where they overlap, since the assumption that there IS such a reconciliation, as yet undiscovered, makes far more sense than the idea that one of the theories will have to be discarded as completely wrong. Einsteinian relativity did not render Newtonian mechanics "wrong" and require it to be discarded. It merely showed why it was incomplete, and explained things that classical mechanics could not. For most things, Newtonian physics still works very, very well.

To say that relativity and quantum mechanics are based on "unprovable faith claims" is so ludicrous that I can't even begin to tell you. If your friend the "sub-atomic physicist" got up at a scientific meeting and said that, he'd be hooted out of the room, if not out of the profession.

The difference between science and religion, Charles, is that religion always sees in a very dim mirror. Theologians can argue forever over what god is like, what hell is like, who will go to heaven, and consensus may even change or evolve on those points, but in the end, they have no way of knowing which version of things is actually closer to the truth. The vision of science, on the other hand, gets steadily clearer and more accurate as time goes on. Scientists are NOT in the same boat as religion..our boat is making progess, and yours just drifts aimlessly.

Jim__

(14,063 posts)
33. It looks like your friend, the physicist, knew what he was talking about.
Sat Apr 6, 2013, 10:23 PM
Apr 2013

An excerpt from an article in Nature:

...

According to the then-accepted account, he wouldn’t feel anything special at first, even when his fall took him through the black hole’s event horizon: the invisible boundary beyond which nothing can escape. But eventually — after hours, days or even weeks if the black hole was big enough — he would begin to notice that gravity was tugging at his feet more strongly than at his head. As his plunge carried him inexorably downwards, the difference in forces would quickly increase and rip him apart, before finally crushing his remnants into the black hole’s infinitely dense core.

But Polchinski’s calculations, carried out with two of his students — Ahmed Almheiri and James Sully — and fellow string theorist Donald Marolf at the University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB), were telling a different story1. In their account, quantum effects would turn the event horizon into a seething maelstrom of particles. Anyone who fell into it would hit a wall of fire and be burned to a crisp in an instant.

The team’s verdict, published in July 2012, shocked the physics community. Such firewalls would violate a foundational tenet of physics that was first articulated almost a century ago by Albert Einstein, who used it as the basis of general relativity, his theory of gravity. Known as the equivalence principle, it states in part that an observer falling in a gravitational field — even the powerful one inside a black hole — will see exactly the same phenomena as an observer floating in empty space. Without this principle, Einstein’s framework crumbles.

...

The result has been a flurry of research papers about firewalls, all struggling to resolve the impasse, none succeeding to everyone’s satisfaction. Steve Giddings, a quantum physicist at the UCSB, describes the situation as “a crisis in the foundations of physics that may need a revolution to resolve”.

...


Imagine that!
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Religion»Scientific fact vrs. reli...