Religion
Related: About this forumDeconverted: A Journey from Religion to Reason
http://www.amazon.com/Deconverted-A-Journey-Religion-Reason/dp/1478716568
Has anyone read this? From the many reviews I've seen (outside of Amazon) this is a great tale of a person who had an awakening when reason prevailed.
Brainstormy
(2,380 posts)It was interesting. The part that I found most entertaining was the reaction of his friend ands contemporaries. Their rationalizations, the circular "logic" that always got back to "well, the Bible says so, so it's true." What I didn't enjoy--Andrews narrates the audio edition himself--is that his voice, cadence, etc., is that of the Southern Baptist megachurch preacher himself. It was weird and hard to get past.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)brooklynite
(93,873 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)His "everyman" approach and skills as a broadcaster and video producer have brought, literally, millions into the conversation regarding religious beliefs and the benefits/damage they do in the name of their respective deities, especially in regard to the indoctrination of children.
The Thinking Atheist is on YouTube, Facebook, Twitter and BlogTalkRadio.
http://www.amazon.com/Seth-Andrews/e/B00AQ5NH8Q/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_pop_1
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)It's not just the fundentalists that participate in religious indoctrination.
rug
(82,333 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)The only program I know of that teaches children about religion instead of teaching them to believe in religion is the Unitarian Universalists Children's Religious Education program.
There is a wide gulf between religious education and religious indoctrination. Most churches, if not nearly all, choose the latter.
rug
(82,333 posts)Teaching about religion and religious beliefs is hardly indoctrination. Your brush is too broad.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)There is a wide gulf between religious education and religious indoctrination. Most churches, if not nearly all, choose the latter.
rug
(82,333 posts)Your brush is too broad.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 3, 2013, 01:55 PM - Edit history (1)
That is THE definition of indoctrination.
Teaching children that (insert deity here) is real and that (insert miracle here) actually happened and that (insert other religions here) are not the true belief IS indoctrination, not education.
As as stated before, the UU's are the only ones I know of that educate instead o indoctrinating. That's why my daughter goes there, to learn ABOUT different religions and their beliefs, not to be taught to believe in any particular one.
rug
(82,333 posts)By your position, no parent or teacher can transmit their beliefs, values and opinions, religious, political or otherwise, without some yahoo crying "Indoctrination!"
It goes without saying that children should be taught to think and to question but that does not preclude a parent sharing beliefs with a child.
Again, your brush is too broad and your view too narrow.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Educating children ABOUT what you and others believe without telling them it is fact that they must also believe is not what civics class or other educational institutions do. If they are, then it is indoctrination.
The same goes for parents. No Sunday school I know of (other than the UU's educate children about what their parents and others believe regarding religion, and instead choose to tell them WHAT to believe, and that said belief is the only true and valid religion. That is indoctrination.
I've said the same thing several times now. I hope you understand.
rug
(82,333 posts)It may teach you why to believe but it doesn't teach what to think.
To simply leave your children with, here it is, find your own way, without telling them what you believe and why you believe, is an abrogation of responsibility.
Nobody is talking about forcing children what to believe.
I suggest you look at that example again. The values laden in American history and civics, as taught daily, are quite directed and purposeful. (The same goes for any cultures's government classes.)
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)And misconstruing what I did say.
Yes, parents should be able to convey their beliefs and values to their children. They should not be able to tell their children that what they believe is what the child must believe and that said belief is factual and true while other religious beliefs are not. That is indoctrination.
We ARE talking about forcing children to believe, which is just what religion does.
And we are talking specifically about religion, which is not based on fact but faith. Faith without evidence, mostly in direct contradiction to the factual observations about the world we live in. Teaching that to children as fact IS indoctrination.
rug
(82,333 posts)That they are not to accept anything without evidence?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)I teach her to use reason and ask questions. I answer her as directly as I can.
If its opinion, I typically say "well, I think... What do you think?" Followed by "Why do you think that?" and encourage her to ask the same.
Do you tell your children that their friends, family, pets, people she hears about on the news, etc., that die that they cannot come back to life, yet tell her a man actually did just that? Do you tell them that bread and wine actually turns into flesh and blood? Do you tell them that there are miracles? Do you tell them that there is a heaven?
Do you tell the facts about the world we exist in? I do.
Education, not indoctrination. Facts, not faith. Reality, not the supernatural.
rug
(82,333 posts)Do you tell her religion is a collection of absurd beliefs lacking any factual evidence?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Values are not religion. Religion is religion. We are talking about religious indoctrination.
The false equivalencies and non sequiturs have got to stop. We cannot continue to have a conversation if you persist.
rug
(82,333 posts)Of all human endeavors, you isolate religion as something unique. I don't think that is tenable.
Oh, and a criticism of your position does not constitute a false equivalency or a non sequitur.
I gave it a try.
rug
(82,333 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Ron Obvious
(6,261 posts)I'd say it's the very definition of it, actually. You really can't see your own cognitive dissonance here?
rug
(82,333 posts)Do you indoctrinate your children in skepticism?
Do you indoctrinate your children in free market principles and property rights?
Do you transmit to your chuildren your disdain for religious beliefs?
Who do you think you're kidding? Get off your high horse.
It is the nature of child rearing to transmit values, opinions and beliefs. This does not preclude questioning and thinking.
The cognitive dissonance here is not mine.
Ron Obvious
(6,261 posts)I don't teach my (hypothetical) children what conclusions they must come to when I teach them, no. I'm not afraid to share my values, and why I hold them, but I still don't teach them what to believe.
I suspect you don't either, so we may be arguing semantics.
rug
(82,333 posts)It's important to share what we value. It's more important to listen, both to why they may agree or to why they may disagree.
Ron Obvious
(6,261 posts)gcomeau
(5,764 posts)...a two wheeled peddle driven vehicle isn't a bicycle.
That's the definition of the word rug. If you're simply going to redefine the language at whim to suit your preferences people are going to find it rather frustrating trying to coherently discuss anything with you.
rug
(82,333 posts)BTW, the other word is pedal.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)They are two entirely different things.
And it's compounded by using it in that sense across the board.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Elsewhere, that is one of several other synonyms.
I repeat then, if it's being used as "brainwash", I stand by the post. If it's used in any other meaning, it's inapplicable.
Sense 1:
brainwash
persuade
Sense 2:
brainwash
indoctrinate
And considering it only lists TWO synonyms for the word that's saying something. Well several somethings, one of them being that that site is pathetic if you want to locate synonyms.
And note that sense 1, when applied to adults in authority positions influencing children, doesn't involve a whole lot of difference from sense 2.
rug
(82,333 posts)Go on, you won't get much traction with that.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)That's like one person saying someone got wet and another person saying "if you want to say he got water on him why don't you just say so????
rug
(82,333 posts)So, are you going to come flat out and say teaching religion to children is brainwashing?
I'm going to flat out say that indoctrinating children in religion is brainwashing. Try to keep up. We already established WAY up the thread that there is a difference between teaching and indoctrinating.
rug
(82,333 posts)gcomeau
(5,764 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)To me and I say this as my opinion, the creation story in Genesis was not meant to be read literally. I believe personally in evolution and I think that is how the God I believe in created us. Science is not the enemy of religion. Science is the enemy of fundamentalism.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Since I just responded to that statement yesterday...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=74961
Gore1FL
(21,033 posts)I was intrigued with the story overview.