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cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:04 AM Apr 2013

Deconverted: A Journey from Religion to Reason

"...and then Noah loaded the dinosaurs onto the ark." Assertions like these seem comical until you realize that many Christian parents aren't kidding when they teach them to their children as facts. Every day, impressionable young minds are conditioned to blindly accept wild biblical tales of floating zoos, talking shrubbery, 900-year-old humans, the undead, curses, levitation, demon/human hybrids and men who obtain super-human strength from the length of their hair. Allegiance to these teachings is expected, often demanded. Curiosity is muted. Doubt is frowned upon as a sin. And for those who dare to raise a dissenting hand, the threat of Hell looms ominously. A former religious radio host raised in the cradle of Christianity, Seth Andrews battled his own doubts for many years. His attempts to reconcile faith and the facts led him to a conclusion previously unthinkable, and this once-true believer ultimately became the founder of one of the most popular atheist communities on the internet.

http://www.amazon.com/Deconverted-A-Journey-Religion-Reason/dp/1478716568



Has anyone read this? From the many reviews I've seen (outside of Amazon) this is a great tale of a person who had an awakening when reason prevailed.
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Deconverted: A Journey from Religion to Reason (Original Post) cleanhippie Apr 2013 OP
I listened to the audiobook Brainstormy Apr 2013 #1
Thanks. Sounds like the same story many have told. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #2
As a listener to his podcast, I always associated his voice with a radio DJ brooklynite Apr 2013 #29
Fundamentalists are prone to shocking disillusionment. rug Apr 2013 #3
"...especially in regard to the indoctrination of children" cleanhippie Apr 2013 #4
And many more don't at all. rug Apr 2013 #5
Sunday school at a Christian church is indoctrination. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #6
No it isn't.. rug Apr 2013 #7
Uh, that's what I said. Didn't you read it? cleanhippie Apr 2013 #8
Teaching to believe isn't indoctrination either. rug Apr 2013 #9
Teaching to believe IS indoctrination. It's EXACTLY that. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #10
So, do you consider civics class to be indoctrination? rug Apr 2013 #11
That is not an apt comparison. Religion teaches WHAT to think and believe. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #16
No it doesn't. rug Apr 2013 #18
FFS, rug. If we're to have a meaningful conversation, please stop inferring things that aren't there cleanhippie Apr 2013 #19
Is that what you tell your children? rug Apr 2013 #20
Pretty much. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #21
Then you're "indoctrinating" her in your values. rug Apr 2013 #22
Oh, bother. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #23
So, your claim is that religion lacks values. rug Apr 2013 #24
Done. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #25
Ok, nice try. rug Apr 2013 #26
Wish I could say the same. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #27
"Teaching to believe isn't indoctrination either." Ron Obvious Apr 2013 #12
Do you indoctrinate your children in patriotism? rug Apr 2013 #13
I don't... Ron Obvious Apr 2013 #14
We probably are. rug Apr 2013 #15
We're in full agreement there. n/t Ron Obvious Apr 2013 #17
That's like saying gcomeau Apr 2013 #31
And the word itself is neutral. rug Apr 2013 #33
If you think so, then why did you try to redefine it? -eom gcomeau Apr 2013 #34
Mainly because it's being used as a synonym for "brainwash". rug Apr 2013 #35
It *is* a synonym for brainwash. Literally. -eom gcomeau Apr 2013 #36
Not according to synonym.com rug Apr 2013 #37
Oh? gcomeau Apr 2013 #38
If he - or you - want to say they're brainwashed, why don't you just say so? rug Apr 2013 #39
You get what two words being synonyms means right? gcomeau Apr 2013 #40
Of course I do. Do you get what broad brush means? rug Apr 2013 #41
No gcomeau Apr 2013 #42
The nuance of words eludes you. rug Apr 2013 #43
Sorry, I think you read my line in the script... -eom gcomeau Apr 2013 #44
I saw Pat Robertson said Carbon dating comes from the devil. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #28
Science is not the enemy of religion, but it does not support it at all. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #30
"Science is not the enemy of religion" gcomeau Apr 2013 #32
I have it in my library, but have not read it yet. Gore1FL Apr 2013 #45

Brainstormy

(2,380 posts)
1. I listened to the audiobook
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:31 AM
Apr 2013

It was interesting. The part that I found most entertaining was the reaction of his friend ands contemporaries. Their rationalizations, the circular "logic" that always got back to "well, the Bible says so, so it's true." What I didn't enjoy--Andrews narrates the audio edition himself--is that his voice, cadence, etc., is that of the Southern Baptist megachurch preacher himself. It was weird and hard to get past.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
3. Fundamentalists are prone to shocking disillusionment.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 12:39 PM
Apr 2013
A Christian of 30 years and former religious broadcaster, Seth Andrews ultimately found himself dissatisfied with the explanations and doctrines of scripture and the church. His search for answers let him to reject, completely, Christianity and all other religions, and Seth now hosts one of the largest online atheist communities in the world, The Thinking Atheist.

His "everyman" approach and skills as a broadcaster and video producer have brought, literally, millions into the conversation regarding religious beliefs and the benefits/damage they do in the name of their respective deities, especially in regard to the indoctrination of children.

The Thinking Atheist is on YouTube, Facebook, Twitter and BlogTalkRadio.


http://www.amazon.com/Seth-Andrews/e/B00AQ5NH8Q/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_pop_1

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
4. "...especially in regard to the indoctrination of children"
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 12:45 PM
Apr 2013

It's not just the fundentalists that participate in religious indoctrination.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
6. Sunday school at a Christian church is indoctrination.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 12:55 PM
Apr 2013

The only program I know of that teaches children about religion instead of teaching them to believe in religion is the Unitarian Universalists Children's Religious Education program.

There is a wide gulf between religious education and religious indoctrination. Most churches, if not nearly all, choose the latter.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
7. No it isn't..
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 12:57 PM
Apr 2013

Teaching about religion and religious beliefs is hardly indoctrination. Your brush is too broad.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
8. Uh, that's what I said. Didn't you read it?
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 01:00 PM
Apr 2013
The only program I know of that teaches children about religion instead of teaching them to believe in religion is the Unitarian Universalists Children's Religious Education program.

There is a wide gulf between religious education and religious indoctrination. Most churches, if not nearly all, choose the latter.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
10. Teaching to believe IS indoctrination. It's EXACTLY that.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 01:13 PM
Apr 2013

Last edited Wed Apr 3, 2013, 01:55 PM - Edit history (1)

That is THE definition of indoctrination.


1 : to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : teach 2 : to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle


Teaching children that (insert deity here) is real and that (insert miracle here) actually happened and that (insert other religions here) are not the true belief IS indoctrination, not education.

As as stated before, the UU's are the only ones I know of that educate instead o indoctrinating. That's why my daughter goes there, to learn ABOUT different religions and their beliefs, not to be taught to believe in any particular one.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
11. So, do you consider civics class to be indoctrination?
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 02:57 PM
Apr 2013

By your position, no parent or teacher can transmit their beliefs, values and opinions, religious, political or otherwise, without some yahoo crying "Indoctrination!"

It goes without saying that children should be taught to think and to question but that does not preclude a parent sharing beliefs with a child.

Again, your brush is too broad and your view too narrow.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
16. That is not an apt comparison. Religion teaches WHAT to think and believe.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:26 PM
Apr 2013

Educating children ABOUT what you and others believe without telling them it is fact that they must also believe is not what civics class or other educational institutions do. If they are, then it is indoctrination.

The same goes for parents. No Sunday school I know of (other than the UU's educate children about what their parents and others believe regarding religion, and instead choose to tell them WHAT to believe, and that said belief is the only true and valid religion. That is indoctrination.

I've said the same thing several times now. I hope you understand.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
18. No it doesn't.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:32 PM
Apr 2013

It may teach you why to believe but it doesn't teach what to think.

To simply leave your children with, here it is, find your own way, without telling them what you believe and why you believe, is an abrogation of responsibility.

Nobody is talking about forcing children what to believe.

I suggest you look at that example again. The values laden in American history and civics, as taught daily, are quite directed and purposeful. (The same goes for any cultures's government classes.)

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
19. FFS, rug. If we're to have a meaningful conversation, please stop inferring things that aren't there
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:44 PM
Apr 2013

And misconstruing what I did say.

Yes, parents should be able to convey their beliefs and values to their children. They should not be able to tell their children that what they believe is what the child must believe and that said belief is factual and true while other religious beliefs are not. That is indoctrination.

We ARE talking about forcing children to believe, which is just what religion does.

And we are talking specifically about religion, which is not based on fact but faith. Faith without evidence, mostly in direct contradiction to the factual observations about the world we live in. Teaching that to children as fact IS indoctrination.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
21. Pretty much.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 08:37 PM
Apr 2013

I teach her to use reason and ask questions. I answer her as directly as I can.

If its opinion, I typically say "well, I think... What do you think?" Followed by "Why do you think that?" and encourage her to ask the same.

Do you tell your children that their friends, family, pets, people she hears about on the news, etc., that die that they cannot come back to life, yet tell her a man actually did just that? Do you tell them that bread and wine actually turns into flesh and blood? Do you tell them that there are miracles? Do you tell them that there is a heaven?

Do you tell the facts about the world we exist in? I do.


Education, not indoctrination. Facts, not faith. Reality, not the supernatural.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
22. Then you're "indoctrinating" her in your values.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 08:45 PM
Apr 2013

Do you tell her religion is a collection of absurd beliefs lacking any factual evidence?

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
23. Oh, bother.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 09:05 PM
Apr 2013


Values are not religion. Religion is religion. We are talking about religious indoctrination.

The false equivalencies and non sequiturs have got to stop. We cannot continue to have a conversation if you persist.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
24. So, your claim is that religion lacks values.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 09:13 PM
Apr 2013

Of all human endeavors, you isolate religion as something unique. I don't think that is tenable.

Oh, and a criticism of your position does not constitute a false equivalency or a non sequitur.

 

Ron Obvious

(6,261 posts)
12. "Teaching to believe isn't indoctrination either."
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 03:28 PM
Apr 2013

I'd say it's the very definition of it, actually. You really can't see your own cognitive dissonance here?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
13. Do you indoctrinate your children in patriotism?
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:15 PM
Apr 2013

Do you indoctrinate your children in skepticism?

Do you indoctrinate your children in free market principles and property rights?

Do you transmit to your chuildren your disdain for religious beliefs?

Who do you think you're kidding? Get off your high horse.

It is the nature of child rearing to transmit values, opinions and beliefs. This does not preclude questioning and thinking.

The cognitive dissonance here is not mine.

 

Ron Obvious

(6,261 posts)
14. I don't...
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:23 PM
Apr 2013

I don't teach my (hypothetical) children what conclusions they must come to when I teach them, no. I'm not afraid to share my values, and why I hold them, but I still don't teach them what to believe.

I suspect you don't either, so we may be arguing semantics.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
15. We probably are.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:26 PM
Apr 2013

It's important to share what we value. It's more important to listen, both to why they may agree or to why they may disagree.

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
31. That's like saying
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 11:25 AM
Apr 2013

...a two wheeled peddle driven vehicle isn't a bicycle.

That's the definition of the word rug. If you're simply going to redefine the language at whim to suit your preferences people are going to find it rather frustrating trying to coherently discuss anything with you.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
35. Mainly because it's being used as a synonym for "brainwash".
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 11:34 AM
Apr 2013

They are two entirely different things.

And it's compounded by using it in that sense across the board.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
37. Not according to synonym.com
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 11:48 AM
Apr 2013
http://www.synonym.com/synonyms/indoctrinate/

Elsewhere, that is one of several other synonyms.

I repeat then, if it's being used as "brainwash", I stand by the post. If it's used in any other meaning, it's inapplicable.
 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
38. Oh?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 11:59 AM
Apr 2013
http://www.synonym.com/synonyms/brainwash/

Sense 1:
brainwash
persuade

Sense 2:
brainwash
indoctrinate

And considering it only lists TWO synonyms for the word that's saying something. Well several somethings, one of them being that that site is pathetic if you want to locate synonyms.

And note that sense 1, when applied to adults in authority positions influencing children, doesn't involve a whole lot of difference from sense 2.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
39. If he - or you - want to say they're brainwashed, why don't you just say so?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 01:00 PM
Apr 2013

Go on, you won't get much traction with that.

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
40. You get what two words being synonyms means right?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 01:09 PM
Apr 2013

That's like one person saying someone got wet and another person saying "if you want to say he got water on him why don't you just say so????

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
41. Of course I do. Do you get what broad brush means?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 04:53 PM
Apr 2013

So, are you going to come flat out and say teaching religion to children is brainwashing?

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
42. No
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 04:55 PM
Apr 2013

I'm going to flat out say that indoctrinating children in religion is brainwashing. Try to keep up. We already established WAY up the thread that there is a difference between teaching and indoctrinating.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
28. I saw Pat Robertson said Carbon dating comes from the devil.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:07 PM
Apr 2013

To me and I say this as my opinion, the creation story in Genesis was not meant to be read literally. I believe personally in evolution and I think that is how the God I believe in created us. Science is not the enemy of religion. Science is the enemy of fundamentalism.

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