Why some of us REALLY don't understand religious belief...

[brooklynite]

Reuters

Devotees nailed to cross in Philippine folk Catholicism ritual



(Reuters) - About two dozen Filipinos were nailed to crosses on Good Friday in an extreme display of devotion that the Catholic church looks down upon as a form of folk religion but appears powerless to stop.

The re-enactment of the passion of Jesus Christ draws thousands of tourists to the Pampanga region, 80 km (50 miles) north of the capital, to watch barefoot penitents flagellate themselves and a series of crucifixions on an artificial hill.

The practice, which took hold in the province about 60 years ago as form of religious vow by poor people seeking forgiveness, a cure for illness and the fulfilment of other wishes.

Archbishop Paciano Aniceto said the gory practice was a distortion of Christ's teachings of love and selfless service. But he conceded that the church could not stop the ritual that he described as "popular piety".

The Catholic Church disdains this behavior, but is happy to continue with with perfectly reasonable activities such as Transubstantiation...

[rug]

1. Can you really not see the difference?

[brooklynite]

2. No...

Both are expressions of religious belief.

Both are recreations of end of Jesus's life.

What am I missing?

[rug]

3. One is a doctrine about the Eucharist, reached over time and over debate and over inquiry.

The other is a somewhat overwrought attempt to emulate the Pasion of Christ, which, freak show aside, is an entirely different doctrine.

[brooklynite]

5. So your objection is that the Church didn't endorse the cruxifiction action....

...but endorsing eating the literal body of Christ made much more sense?

[rug]

7. Do you know how transubstantaition is defined?

And no, your statemement is not mine.

[brooklynite]

8. from the Catholic Dictionary...

The complete change of the substance of bread and wine into the substance of Christ's body and blood by a validly ordained priest during the consecration at Mass

Still waiting to hear why one is a responsible belief, and the other is "silly", other than "the Church says so"

[rug]

12. Yes, the "substance". Hence, the "real presence".

I suppose then that you are also familiar with the medieval philosophical concepts of substance and accident, which frame the doctrine.

If you are, then you will know why the Eucharist (which is entirely distinct from the Crucifixion, poorly imitated in the Philippines) has nothing to do with this exhibition.

Since I said neither "silly" nor "the Church says so", I will assume you're having an internal dialogue rather than an objective discussion and leave you to wait until you provide your own answer.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. Self flagellation as sanctification in the Roman Catholic Church's Prelature

of the Holy Cross and Opus Dei
http://www.academia.edu/1488278/Self-Flagellation_as_Sanctification_in_the_Roman_Catholic_Churchs_Prelature_of_the_Holy_Cross_and_Opus_Dei

Nope, not much difference.

[rug]

6. Good, show me the document that encourages nailing yourself to a cross.

[BlueStreak]

9. I attended Lutheran services this AM

I am a professional musician, which is why I was there. I really don't think anybody actually pays attention to any of the scripture, and especially not the text of the hymns. They are really gruesome, horrid things that glorify massacre and cannibalism. And this is a "nice church" where everybody seems pretty down to earth.

[rug]

11. Wel, I'm not a professional muician but I have yet to attend a service that glorifies

massacres and cannibalism.

[BlueStreak]

14. I'm afraid I didn't bring the program home with me

and I most certainly don't keep a hymnal in my home, but they did three hymns during communion and all three were filled with grotesque imagery about the blood of Jesus flowing upon us, drinking the blood from an open wound and eating the body. Yes, I'm sure when questioned the answer would be "silly goose, don't you know these are just metaphors?". But the texts, laid bare, were thoroughly gruesome. Yet everybody was just smiling as they sang of driving nails through the body and dragging around the corpse.

Very much an out-of-body experience. How could those people verbalize those words without any apparent revulsion?

Next time I am there, I will make a point of recording those hymns.

[rug]

15. I think I know the kind of hymn you mean

Here's one:

Beautiful music and graphic words. There are many like that in Catholic liturgical music. There are some examples in the play list at the link. Essentially, this form of music dwells on the sacrifice. The music has a long tradition.

Granted, some of it is appalling. Still, to see it as embracing massacres and cannibalism is to miss the point and, more importantly, its history.

[BlueStreak]

16. Yes, that's in the ballpark

That was not one of the hymns in this instance, but you have the picture. It seems to be inherent in the brainwashing that if you combine these really gruesome ideas with beautiful music and have everybody singing those words together, people don't even question what the words are saying.

I find it really scary that otherwise perfectly sane, intelligent people are able to completely disconnect from the meaning. I have the feeling of being surrounded by zombies when people can sing such gruesome texts with no apparent conscious reaction.

I have been looking around on the web to try to find these hymns, but I am having no luck. I know in this particular hymnal, there is a section of about 20 hymns intended for communion, and most of them are of this same style -- glorifying death and gore, cannibalism, and such. I can't really call up the church and say "You know, that was a catchy hymn yesterday that talked about drinking the blood flowing from the Lord's wound. Can you send me a copy of that?"

[BlueStreak]

17. Here are some examples

None of these are the ones I heard this AM, and these are relatively tame

===========

Let thy Blood in mercy poured,
let thy gracious Body broken,
be to me, O gracious Lord,
of thy boundless love the token.
Refrain:
Thou didst give thyself for me,
now I give myself to thee.

Thou didst die that I might live;
blessed Lord, thou cam'st to save me;
all that love of God could give
Jesus by his sorrows gave me. Refrain

By the thorns that crowned thy brow,
by the spear-wound and the nailing,
by the pain and death, I now
claim, O Christ, thy love unfailing. Refrain

Wilt thou own the gift I bring?
All my penitence I give thee;
thou art my exalted King,
of thy matchless love forgive me. Refrain

=================

Draw nigh and take the body of the Lord;
And drink the holy blood for you outpoured.
Saved by that body and that holy blood,
With souls refreshed, we render thanks to God.

Salvation’s Giver, Christ, the only Son,
By His dear cross and blood the victory won.
Offered was He for greatest and for least,
Himself the Victim, and Himself the Priest.

Victims were offered by the law of old,
Which in a type this heavenly mystery told.
He, Ransomer from death, and Light from shade,
Now gives His holy grace His saints to aid.

Approach ye then with faithful hearts sincere,
And take the safeguard of salvation here.
He, that His saints in this world rules and shields,
To all believers life eternal yields.

With heavenly bread makes them that hunger whole,
Gives living waters to the thirsting soul,
Alpha and Omega, to Whom shall bow
All nations at the doom, is with us now.

===================

Sons of God hear his holy word
Gather round the table of the Lord
Eat his body, drink his blood
And will sing a song of love
alleluia
Brothers, sisters we are one
And our life has just begun
In the spirit we are young
We can live forever
Jesus gave a new command
That we love our fellow men
Till we reach the promised land
Where we'll live forever
If we want to live with him
We must also die with him
Die to selfishness and sin
And we'll rise forever
Make the world a unity
Made all men one family
Till we meet the trinity
And live with them forever

With the church we celebrate
Jesus coming we await
So we make a holiday
So we'll live forever.

=================

Your only Son
No sin to hide
But You have sent Him,
From Your side
To walk upon this guilty sod
And to become the Lamb of God

Your gift of Love
They crucified
They laughed and scorned him as he died
The humble King
They named a fraud
And sacrificed the Lamb of God

Chorus:
Oh Lamb of God, Sweet lamb of God
I love the Holy Lamb of God
Oh wash me in His precious Blood
My Jesus Christ the Lamb of God

I was so lost I should have died
But You have brought me to Your side
To be led by Your staff and rod
And to be call a lamb of God

[rug]

18. Not to go all Mel Gibson, but

the core event in Christianity is the Resurrection preceded by the Crucifixion.

Crucifixion by its very nature is ugly, painful and graphic. You may have seen one of the documentaries about the Roman method this weekend.

The Crucifixion is entwined with the notion of the Son of God willingly subjecting himself to these horrors as an expiation motivated by love for humanity.

Now agree with this or not but it is not surprising that both music and art went deeply into these themes for many centuries. Before mass literacy, these were some of the chief means by which people experienced these themes.

Some of what has come out of this is pietistic shit. But some is magnificent dealing with truly awesome concepts.

Since it's time to sleep, here's something a lot less gruesome.

[BlueStreak]

20. I don't question the martyrdom. Indeed, that is the core of the religion

What I question is really 2 things:

1) A piling on beyond the original crucifixion that glorifies violence and these gruesome beliefs that seem awfully close to cannibalism to me;

2) The idea that people have become so thoroughly brainwashed that they can sing such gruesome lyrics about such abhorrent ideas and have no apparent reaction at all. That reminds me of Jonestown.

I know that not all denominations are so fixated on these gruesome elements. The Baptists, for example, seem to say, "Admit you sins sometime before you die, swear allegiance to Jesus, stay clear of the Devil most of the time, and you'll have an eternity of bliss." In my experience they don't talk much about the more savage aspects of the Bible and doctrine.

[goldent]

10. I don't see much of a connection between these crucifixions and transubstantiation

Transubstantiation has always seemed to me to very close to symbolism. And that is effectively the case since to the senses, nothing has changed. Philosophers get into this kind of stuff, and I can appreciate that, but I'm not bothered.

These crucifixions go a little beyond symbolism

[struggle4progress]

13. "... Archbishop .. Aniceto said the .. practice was a distortion of Christ's teachings ..."

[Phillip McCleod]

19. pretty uncommon these days..

..but as i've noted before, in northern new mexico the penitentes have similar practices plus flagellation and scarification *much* tempered these days. a public crucifixion hasn't occurred in more than a couple decades, but they were a powerful force on the southwest frontier at one time.

otoh, that part of the world has never changed hands without bloody disaster so lets not read too much into it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penitentes_%28New_Mexico%29

[ZombieHorde]

21. I strongly suspect that religion is a deeply personal experience.

If this true, then the religious practice of those who have themselves crucified for a short time is just as valid as other religious practices that don't hurt other people.