"The Ring"

[H2O Man]

Two days ago, an unidentified person left a bag with ten old The Ring magazines outside of my door. The magazines date from 1035 to 1963. Most are from the 1950s.

I enjoyed (re-)reading predictions by "experts" about the then-upcoming fight between heavyweight champion Charles "Sonny" Liston and a young challenger named Cassius Clay. Only two -- Jersey Joe Walcott and Marty Marshall -- gave Clay any chance. Most were sure "The Bear" would flatten Clay in one round!

Walcott, of course, was the former champion who was the referee in the Ali vs Liston rematch; Marshall was the first man to defeat Liston, in the first of their three fights.

I'm having fun going backwards in time.The quality of writing was overall far superior to today's.

[hughee99]

1. That sounds really cool.

I love to read older magazines, especially ones that prognosticate about upcoming events. Things always look different in hindsight and you can lose some of what makes sports so great. BTW, I assume you mean 1935, not 1035, right?

[H2O Man]

3. Right!

I suspect the 1035 editions were published on clay tablets.

[trumad]

2. A person who obviously knows your love of boxing.

Cool

[H2O Man]

4. They are great reading.

My oldest brother has a huge collection of boxing magazines, and so I'd already read 8 of the 10 -- though many years ago. And my younger son is attempting to convince me that, as there was no note left with the magazines, that they were surely intended for him. I will, of course, add them to his growing collection of boxing-related treasures.

All of them are fascinating. But what I am most interested in him reading are the articles on Liston. Some are from when he was a contender, others cover his destruction of Patterson and the up-coming defense against Cassius Clay. I think that it is an example of how you had to be alive at that time, to fully appreciate how intense a fighter Sonny Liston was. Even the top writers -- who strongly disliked Sonny as a man -- considered him to be one of, if the the, greatest heavyweight champions. There was no one in the top ten contenders who was considered a threat to him. In fact, most established contenders were not interested in challenging him. It appeared that he would be champion for as long as he wanted to be.

I've played Clay's album, "I am the Greatest!", for my son several times. Again, if one wasn't alive back then, it is almost impossible to fully appreciate the context of that time: Dallas, the Beatles, and this mouthy young man who boxed with his hands at his sides. That curious meeting of the Beatles at Clay's Miami training camp -- Clay: "You're not as dumb as you look!" Lennon: "Yeah, but you are!"

Largely overlooked today, I consider the Liston vs Clay bout to be one of the greatest fights in boxing's history. My other brother tells me that it is The Champ's favorite film to watch.

[trumad]

5. Not sure if I told you this...

But I went to school with Angelo Dundee's daughter. Terry Dundee. North Miami High.

I actually met the guy a couple of times.

[H2O Man]

6. Yes, I do

remember you telling me that. It must have been interesting, having Angelo for a father. I only met him a few times, but from everything I know, he was one of the most decent, kind-hearted of individuals.

Obviously, he had great insight on the sport. A while back, we were talking about Clay's bout with Doug Jones, and how Jones was similar in style to Ken Norton. Well, that Clay -- or the one that Henry Cooper decked -- would not have beat Liston. But Angelo was aware that Cassius was having a growth streak. Not taller, but filling out, and become a more mature, very strong heavyweight. Now, not only Liston, but all the "experts," thought Sonny was fighting the younger version. One of those experts in The Ring describes Cassius as "of frail build," while four note that he "can't take a punch."

Walcott alone noted that Clay had gained weight and strength since his last bout. And Jersey Joe knew how he had used superior footwork in his first bout with Joe Louis -- although Joe was given the decision, everyone including Louis knew Walcott had won. He applied that to Clay vs Liston. Marty Marshall did, too. He knew that Liston's jab, like Louis's, was a heck of a weapon, but that if they missed a moving target, both Louis and Liston would begin to probe with the jab, slower than usual. (That's how Billy Conn was able to build up such a lead in his first bout with Louis: not letting the solid jab land, then crossing the slower, probing jab.)

Just as Clay/Ali was much stronger than people recognized, so was Dundee. When my normal brother was in Ali's training camp (towards the end of his career), Muhammad liked to pretend my brother was a "spy" from his next victim's camp. Ali would begin threatening my brother, and Angelo would "hold Muhammad back" from viciously attacking him! My brother, of course, loved it.

[trumad]

7. Awesome stuff my friend.

[RagAss]

9. I seem to recall another fighter from that same era in Miami.

Willie Pastrano the Light Heavyweight champ. Was he with Dundee as well or just a coincidence being in Miami at that time ?

[H2O Man]

10. Yes.

He was Angelo's light heavyweight champion. There's a story about those two, and an amateur named Cassius Clay. Clay kept following Dundee around, even to his hotel room, assuring the veteran trainer that he was going to be the next heavyweight champ. Angelo would say, "Sure, kid."

Clay kept asking for a chance to spar Willie. When he did, it was one-sides. Good as Pastrano was, he couldn't land a glove on the kid. That, of course, impressed Dundee.

Clay would also spar Ingomar J before the Patterson rematch. He easily outdid Ingo, to everyone's surprise.

Sparring, of course, is distinct from an actual bout. But Clay was an extremely talented amateur. He benefited from Angelo guiding his early career -- giving him time to mature mentally, become more at ease at the big dances, and grown into his adult physical strength. Yet, there's little doubt that even as a youngster, he would have beat many top fighters his size.

[RagAss]

11. Thanks H2O Man... I was sure you knew about him...great info !

[ScreamingMeemie]

8. Wow! a 978-year-old magazine...